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savafan
01-30-2011, 07:54 PM
When looking back over old baseball cards, I see the cards from sets such as 1983 Topps that celebrate the "Firemen of the Year".

When I used to think of Firemen, I'd think about guys like Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage who would be called on to get outs with the game on the line. It didn't have to be the 9th inning, if the other team was threatening you'd see them come into the game.

As for the Reds, when I think about Firemen I consider guys like Franco or any of the three Nasty Boys.

Closers complete the game with a lead of three runs or less. That's pretty much it. They collect a stat, the save, by coming in and getting three outs in the games final inning, whether the situation is high leverage or not.

Guys like Danny Graves or Francisco Cordero are closers, but not firemen. If you look at the top 15 guys on the all time saves leaders board, you'll see Troy Percival, Roberto Hernandez, Jose Mesa, Todd Jones and Rick Aguilera. These guys were closers, but I'd be hesitant to call them firemen.


I think the statistic of the save has become too easy to rack up. I'd like to see baseball look at tightening the requirements to be credited with a save to bring back the days of the firemen in the bullpen and move away from the overhyped closer.

westofyou
01-30-2011, 07:57 PM
The stat hasn't changed since 1969, when it was created.


10.19 Saves For Relief Pitchers
A save is a statistic credited to a relief pitcher, as set forth in this Rule 10.19.
The official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when such pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:
(a) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;
(b) He is not the winning pitcher;
(c) He is credited with at least a third of an inning pitched; and
(d) He satisfies one of the following conditions:
(1) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning;
(2) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batters he faces); or
(3) He pitches for at least three innings.

savafan
01-30-2011, 07:59 PM
The stat hasn't changed since 1969, when it was created.

Oh I'm aware of that WOY, but the way managers have managed the ballgames has changed, allowing guys to rack up a stat that has pretty much become meaningless and sometimes allowing mediocre relievers to cash in on big contracts.

westofyou
01-30-2011, 08:03 PM
Oh I'm aware of that WOY, but the way managers have managed the ballgames has changed, allowing guys to rack up a stat that has pretty much become meaningless and sometimes allowing mediocre relievers to cash in on big contracts.
Mediocre guys cash in on big contracts at all positions, but the closer also has lost out to the growth of middle relief, two guy games are now 4 guy games, with 1 batter specialist's sucking up payroll.

savafan
01-30-2011, 08:24 PM
Mediocre guys cash in on big contracts at all positions, but the closer also has lost out to the growth of middle relief, two guy games are now 4 guy games, with 1 batter specialist's sucking up payroll.

Good points.

Big Klu
01-30-2011, 08:38 PM
My feelings about closers/relief aces are the same as my feelings about kickers in the NFL. There's no statistical benchmark or milestone that you can use to compare players across different eras, but you know a Hall Of Famer when you see one.

savafan
01-30-2011, 08:45 PM
My feelings about closers/relief aces are the same as my feelings about kickers in the NFL. There's no statistical benchmark or milestone that you can use to compare players across different eras, but you know a Hall Of Famer when you see one.

I'd like to think so, but while I'd consider a guy like Lee Smith a Hall of Famer, those who do the voting don't seem to agree.

PuffyPig
01-30-2011, 09:00 PM
I beleive that before a save was an official stat, they were kept unofficially and credited the last pitcher of a wining ballgame with a save, regardless of the score.

At least that is the way I remember it.

TheNext44
01-30-2011, 09:08 PM
I think more and more managers are using a decent reliever as closer and their best relief arm the way firemen were used, to get the toughest and most important outs of the game. I hope that's how the Reds will use Chapman next year, as a fireman.

PuffyPig
01-30-2011, 09:13 PM
In the old days your best reliever often pitched 2-3 innings. He came in when he was needed, and pitched until the game was over.

It was not a case of using your best releiver with "the game on the line" ands then going with other guys. He pitched earlier becuase he was going to pitch more than 1 inning.

Scrap Irony
01-30-2011, 09:22 PM
Wouldn't that be a great way to use Chapman, though? He'd get innings, work on his third pitch a bit, and get major league coaching. If he pitches every third game, he'd get 150 innings, starters could rest, and the rest of the pen could also get a breather. It would be similar to throwing between starts and shouldn't hurt his wing (though any time a guy throws that hard, he's got ot be susceptible to injuries).

PuffyPig
01-30-2011, 09:27 PM
Wouldn't that be a great way to use Chapman, though? He'd get innings, work on his third pitch a bit, and get major league coaching. If he pitches every third game, he'd get 150 innings, starters could rest, and the rest of the pen could also get a breather. It would be similar to throwing between starts and shouldn't hurt his wing (though any time a guy throws that hard, he's got ot be susceptible to injuries).

A few problems with that.

Who's to say he would be needed every third game. Zero chance it would work out that way.

Secondly, 150 innings for a reliever would likely leave him for dead.

Scrap Irony
01-30-2011, 09:32 PM
Why is 150 innings too many for a reliever? He's used to 130 or so innings, so the jump there should prove no problem. Too, if he's not needed, then don't use him until the next game. Or the one after.

But 120 innings shouldn't be too hard to get and keep him protected. (Multiple innings, but two two days between appearances, for the most part.)

PuffyPig
01-30-2011, 10:39 PM
Why is 150 innings too many for a reliever? He's used to 130 or so innings, so the jump there should prove no problem. Too, if he's not needed, then don't use him until the next game. Or the one after.

But 120 innings shouldn't be too hard to get and keep him protected. (Multiple innings, but two two days between appearances, for the most part.)

Can you name many relievers who have pitched 150 innings in a season?

They simply are very few.

100 innings for a reliever is considered a stretch these days.

Mike Marshall has the record I believe of about 162 innings ( I believe he qualified for the ERA title) but it's been pretty rare. As in almost non-existent.

And certainly no one has done it for very long.

Scrap Irony
01-30-2011, 10:44 PM
Oh, I get it's rare and probably too outside the box to do.

But it's something to consider on a cold January day.

Would 130 IP out of the pen tear up his arm? And why, if so?

Spitball
01-30-2011, 11:00 PM
I believe I started a similar thread about six or seven years ago.

I have long felt the best bullpen pitcher needs to be in there, matched against the other team's best, when there is a threat to score critical runs. The thrill of strategy is a big part of baseball. When to play the ace in the hole or when to bring in the big gun?

Partly in jest, I blame Tony LaRussa for developing the closer role so he wouldn't have to face critical second guessing on bullpen usage. It is easier for a manager to let the closer take the blame for not doing his job than to take the blame for employing the wrong guy at the wrong time.

Btw, I believe Chapman needs to develop consistency with his fastball command more than he needs to develop a third pitch. Great fastball pitchers are not like the guys throwing 91 MPH fastballs. The overpowering guys just need command of their fastball and command of another pitch to throw off the batter's ability to time the great fastball. Randy Johnson had his slider. Koufax his curve. Soto his change.

Spitball
01-30-2011, 11:13 PM
Mike Marshall has the record I believe of about 162 innings ( I believe he qualified for the ERA title) but it's been pretty rare. .

Marshall pitched over 200 innings in 1974.

alexad
01-30-2011, 11:26 PM
Looking over old baseball cards is awesome. My kids are 13 and 11 and they are getting into the old cards I had growing up in the late 70's early 80's. They like the term fireman.

savafan
01-30-2011, 11:27 PM
They like the term fireman.

I like it too, and it was fitting for the time.

traderumor
01-30-2011, 11:35 PM
Marshall pitched over 200 innings in 1974.

Marshall was an anomaly. In the 60s-70s, many teams were employing the bullpen ace and he might pitch 100-130 innings. For the Reds, you had Carroll and Granger, then Carroll and Borbon in the 100+ innings range, for example. The Twins used a Stan Williams/Ron Perranoski tandem in 1970 that racked up about 250 innings between them. Dick Selma pitched 130 innings for the Phillies that year. Now, we're hearing screams of abuse at 70-80 innings. Coco's arm was going to fall off last year because he was on pace to pitch that many innings with some early season frequent calls.

These guys today, all a bunch of sissies ;)

savafan
01-30-2011, 11:39 PM
These guys today, all a bunch of sissies ;)

:thumbup:

Especially considering they have better training and better doctors, and make more coin.

TheNext44
01-31-2011, 12:50 AM
Marshall was an anomaly. In the 60s-70s, many teams were employing the bullpen ace and he might pitch 100-130 innings. For the Reds, you had Carroll and Granger, then Carroll and Borbon in the 100+ innings range, for example. The Twins used a Stan Williams/Ron Perranoski tandem in 1970 that racked up about 250 innings between them. Dick Selma pitched 130 innings for the Phillies that year. Now, we're hearing screams of abuse at 70-80 innings. Coco's arm was going to fall off last year because he was on pace to pitch that many innings with some early season frequent calls.

These guys today, all a bunch of sissies ;)

Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.

That close pitching two innings every other day... for six years in a row and he had an 3.06 ERA over that period (118 ERA+) A very unsung hero of the Big Red Machine.

traderumor
01-31-2011, 08:56 AM
Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.

That close pitching two innings every other day... for six years in a row and he had an 3.06 ERA over that period (118 ERA+) A very unsung hero of the Big Red Machine.Yea, my dad used Borbon to teach me what the term "rubber arm" meant. My mom always had one Red she picked on. BRM era was Clay Carroll. She claimed every time she watched him pitch, he'd stink and blow the lead. Obviously, his numbers show him getting someone out, mom :)

mth123
01-31-2011, 09:06 AM
Yea, my dad used Borbon to teach me what the term "rubber arm" meant. My mom always had one Red she picked on. BRM era was Clay Carroll. She claimed every time she watched him pitch, he'd stink and blow the lead. Obviously, his numbers show him getting someone out, mom :)

Funny. My mom used to complain about Carroll too. She always said that he must be Sparky Anderson's brother because he used him so much.

westofyou
01-31-2011, 10:25 AM
Relievers with 120 plus IP




SEASON

GAMES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES FINISHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES STARTED <= 2
SAVES displayed only--not a sorting criteria

INNINGS PITCHED YEAR IP G GF RSAA GS SV
1 Mike Marshall 1974 208.1 106 83 20 0 21
2 Andy Karl 1945 181 67 41 17 2 15
3 Mike Marshall 1973 179 92 73 24 0 31
4 Bob Stanley 1982 168.1 48 33 26 0 14
5 Bill Campbell 1976 167.2 78 68 9 0 20
6 Eddie Fisher 1965 165 82 60 13 0 24
T7 Wilbur Wood 1968 159 88 46 20 2 16
T7 Hoyt Wilhelm 1952 159 71 32 25 0 11
T9 Dick Radatz 1964 157 79 67 26 0 29
T9 Mark Eichhorn 1986 157 69 38 46 0 10
11 Garland Braxton 1927 156 58 32 16 2 13
12 Jim Konstanty 1950 152 74 62 20 0 22
13 Jack Lamabe 1963 151 65 20 12 2 6
14 John Hiller 1974 150 59 52 22 0 13
15 Tom Johnson 1977 147 71 54 18 0 15
16 Bob Stanley 1983 145.1 64 53 21 0 33
T17 Wayne Granger 1969 145 90 55 13 0 27
T17 Hoyt Wilhelm 1953 145 68 39 18 0 15
19 Sammy Stewart 1983 144.1 58 21 7 1 7
T20 Steve Foucault 1974 144 69 53 19 0 12
T20 Clay Carroll 1968 144 68 44 11 1 17
T20 Hoyt Wilhelm 1965 144 66 45 21 0 20
23 Jim Kern 1979 143 71 57 42 0 29
T24 Charlie Hough 1976 142.2 77 55 19 0 18
T24 Mike Marshall 1979 142.2 90 84 31 1 32
26 Joe Black 1952 142 56 41 26 2 15
27 Goose Gossage 1975 141.2 62 49 33 0 26
28 Joe Page 1947 141 56 44 15 2 17
29 Willie Hernandez 1984 140.1 80 68 29 0 32
30 Bill Campbell 1977 140 69 60 29 0 31
T31 Pedro Borbon 1974 139 73 44 5 0 14
T31 Dan Quisenberry 1983 139 69 62 35 0 45
33 Bob Miller 1964 138 74 39 8 2 9
34 Aurelio Lopez 1984 137.2 71 41 13 0 14
T35 Sparky Lyle 1977 137 72 60 27 0 26
T35 Tom Hume 1980 137 78 62 17 0 25
37 Dan Quisenberry 1982 136.2 72 68 23 0 35
38 Doug Corbett 1980 136.1 73 63 37 0 23
T39 Ken Sanders 1971 136 83 77 25 0 31
T39 Ted Abernathy 1965 136 84 62 17 0 31
T41 Joe Page 1949 135 60 48 23 0 27
T41 Ted Abernathy 1968 135 78 53 15 0 13
T41 Kent Tekulve 1978 135 91 65 22 0 31
T41 Mudcat Grant 1970 135 80 54 25 0 24
T45 Phil Regan 1968 134.2 73 62 17 0 25
T45 Rollie Fingers 1976 134.2 70 62 15 0 20
T47 Goose Gossage 1978 134.1 63 55 25 0 27
T47 Terry Forster 1974 134.1 59 49 2 1 24
T47 Kent Tekulve 1979 134.1 94 67 17 0 31
T50 John Montague 1979 134 55 25 -18 1 7
T50 Bill Henry 1959 134 65 35 18 0 12
T50 Dick Selma 1970 134 73 47 17 0 22
53 Dan Spillner 1982 133.2 65 54 24 0 21
T54 Mace Brown 1938 133 51 32 -1 2 5
T54 Goose Gossage 1977 133 72 55 35 0 26
56 Rollie Fingers 1977 132.1 78 69 7 0 35
T57 Dick Radatz 1963 132 66 58 28 0 25
T57 Dan McGinn 1969 132 74 25 -3 1 6
T59 Bob Lee 1965 131 69 50 20 0 23
T59 Sid Monge 1979 131 76 53 31 0 19
T59 Ted Wilks 1948 131 57 28 19 2 13
T59 Hoyt Wilhelm 1964 131 73 55 19 0 27
T59 Ron Davis 1980 131 53 29 15 0 7
64 Eddie Fisher 1970 130.1 67 36 4 2 8
T65 Dave Heaverlo 1978 130 69 40 8 0 10
T65 Joe Berry 1945 130 52 40 13 0 5
67 Sammy Stewart 1985 129.2 56 36 7 1 9
T68 Dan Quisenberry 1984 129.1 72 67 19 0 44
T68 Enrique Romo 1979 129.1 84 25 13 0 5
T70 Ron Perranoski 1963 129 69 47 19 0 21
T70 Dan Quisenberry 1985 129 84 76 26 0 37
T70 Lindy McDaniel 1965 129 71 26 16 0 2
73 Kent Tekulve 1982 128.2 85 64 17 0 20
74 Dan Quisenberry 1980 128.1 75 68 12 0 33
T75 John Wyatt 1964 128 81 57 5 0 20
T75 Roger McDowell 1986 128 75 52 6 0 22
T77 Duane Ward 1990 127.2 73 39 7 0 11
T77 Rick Camp 1985 127.2 66 23 0 2 3
T77 Bill Caudill 1980 127.2 72 27 25 2 1
T77 Mark Eichhorn 1987 127.2 89 27 18 0 4
T81 Charlie Hough 1977 127.1 70 53 7 1 22
T81 Roger McDowell 1985 127.1 62 36 8 2 17
T83 Aurelio Lopez 1979 127 61 49 23 0 21
T83 Ellis Kinder 1951 127 63 41 27 2 14
T83 Pedro Borbon 1977 127 73 54 10 0 18
T83 Don Elston 1960 127 60 33 6 0 11
T87 Rollie Fingers 1973 126.2 62 49 19 2 22
T87 Rollie Fingers 1975 126.2 75 59 7 0 24
T89 Larry Bearnarth 1963 126 58 34 -1 2 4
T89 Pete Mikkelsen 1966 126 71 33 7 0 14
T89 Jim Acker 1989 126 73 26 16 0 2
T92 Dick Tidrow 1979 125.1 77 37 8 0 6
T92 John Hiller 1973 125.1 65 60 34 0 38
T94 Pedro Borbon 1975 125 67 25 11 0 5
T94 Eddie Fisher 1964 125 59 30 4 2 9
T94 Ron Perranoski 1964 125 72 52 1 0 14
T94 Mark Williamson 1987 125 61 36 5 2 3
T94 Dick Radatz 1962 125 62 53 26 0 24
T94 Bob Locker 1967 125 77 47 12 0 20
100 Jeff Robinson 1988 124.2 75 35 5 0 9
101 Greg Minton 1984 124.1 74 43 -3 1 19
T102 Aurelio Lopez 1980 124 67 59 8 1 21
T102 Ron Herbel 1970 124 76 38 -9 1 10
T102 Dick Radatz 1965 124 63 56 -1 0 22
T102 Bill Gogolewski 1973 124 49 22 -6 1 6
106 Enrique Romo 1980 123.2 74 38 6 0 11
T107 Jeff Robinson 1987 123.1 81 40 15 0 14
T107 Lance McCullers 1987 123.1 78 41 3 0 16
T109 Greg Minton 1982 123 78 66 21 0 30
T109 Butch Metzger 1976 123 77 62 2 0 16
T109 Jim Bouton 1969 123 73 25 -3 2 2
T109 Tom Murphy 1974 123 70 66 25 0 20
T109 Dan Spillner 1977 123 76 30 -3 0 6
114 Bruce Sutter 1984 122.2 71 63 27 0 45
115 Bill Campbell 1983 122.1 82 46 -11 0 8
T116 Stu Miller 1961 122 63 46 17 0 17
T116 Paul Lindblad 1975 122 68 20 10 0 7
T116 Pedro Borbon 1972 122 62 26 0 2 11
T116 Danny Darwin 1989 122 68 26 17 0 7
T116 Wilbur Wood 1970 122 77 62 17 0 21
T116 Frank Smith 1952 122 53 37 0 2 7
T116 Jim Todd 1975 122 58 31 16 0 12
T116 Don Robinson 1984 122 51 28 4 1 10
T116 Lindy McDaniel 1966 122 64 32 11 0 6
T116 Minnie Rojas 1967 122 72 53 8 0 27
126 Bob Lacey 1977 121.2 64 29 12 0 7
T127 Pedro Borbon 1976 121 69 26 3 1 8
T127 Pedro Borbon 1973 121 80 36 16 0 14
T127 John Hiller 1976 121 56 46 18 1 13
T130 Bill Campbell 1974 120.1 63 55 14 0 19
T130 Tim Burke 1985 120.1 78 31 13 0 8
T130 Andy McGaffigan 1987 120.1 69 30 26 0 12
T133 Ron Perranoski 1969 120 75 52 21 0 31
T133 Joe Heving 1944 120 63 38 21 1 10
T133 Wilbur Wood 1969 120 76 50 13 0 15

IslandRed
01-31-2011, 11:15 AM
It's certainly been done, and no doubt could be again, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Any pitcher could fulfill the first two parts of that job description -- "appear frequently" and "throw multiple innings per appearance" -- for a little while. It's the third part -- "and maintain effectiveness" -- that's the catch.

We ask starters to throw a lot of innings, but they get a lot of rest days. Short relief doesn't get the rest (and if they have to get up and get ready, it's about the same on them cumulative-fatigue-wise whether they go in the game or not) but they don't throw many innings. Ask a guy to throw a big innings load but without the rest, he'd better be a rubber-armed freak, or we'd better be willing to sacrifice the guy to the process of finding out if he is.

Scrap Irony
01-31-2011, 02:02 PM
Theoretically, Chapman's outings could be planned. He pitches the seventh, eighth, and ninth innings (depending on pitch counts) every third or fourth day, depending on starter effectiveness. Obviously, if Wood, for example, was throwing a three-hit shutout, he'd stay in, but, for the most part, three innings would be left for relievers.

That would keep him from overextending his arm or appearing too frequently (as he'd pretty much be on a strict regimen of appearance, two/ three days' rest, then work again throughout the season, when off-days and starting pitchers are added).

What's the harm in that?

IslandRed
01-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Theoretically, Chapman's outings could be planned. He pitches the seventh, eighth, and ninth innings (depending on pitch counts) every third or fourth day, depending on starter effectiveness. Obviously, if Wood, for example, was throwing a three-hit shutout, he'd stay in, but, for the most part, three innings would be left for relievers.

That would keep him from overextending his arm or appearing too frequently (as he'd pretty much be on a strict regimen of appearance, two/ three days' rest, then work again throughout the season, when off-days and starting pitchers are added).

What's the harm in that?

I can think of a few practical considerations:

* It's the National League. If he's supposed to come into the game in the seventh and finish it, he'd better learn to hit for himself.

* If he does pitch the three innings and isn't available for a few days after that, it puts strain on the rest of the bullpen, as it's going to increase the frequency with which the rest of them have to go back-to-back days.

* By putting him on a planned schedule that discounts the leverage of the game situation that day, the Reds wouldn't be maximizing his impact in the bullpen while simultaneously taking a sub-optimal approach to preparing him for the rotation.

I don't know. I think the Reds are better off pursuing one objective at a time, but Chapman's a guy where theory and practice don't always mesh, so maybe what you're describing is exactly what he needs.

RedsBaron
01-31-2011, 02:42 PM
Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.


Borbon usually lead the league in opposing players bitten as well. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
01-31-2011, 04:25 PM
Borbon = Scary Dude

Sea Ray
01-31-2011, 05:25 PM
The stat hasn't changed since 1969, when it was created.

That is incorrect. You should know better, WOY.

The rule has changed not once but twice since 1969; once in 1973 and once in 1975. It's much harder now to get credited with a save.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save

westofyou
01-31-2011, 06:28 PM
That is incorrect. You should know better, WOY.

The rule has changed not once but twice since 1969; once in 1973 and once in 1975. It's much harder now to get credited with a save.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save

Correct, my bad, established in 69, and retrofitted to what we have now 6 years later.

mth123
01-31-2011, 06:50 PM
Theoretically, Chapman's outings could be planned. He pitches the seventh, eighth, and ninth innings (depending on pitch counts) every third or fourth day, depending on starter effectiveness. Obviously, if Wood, for example, was throwing a three-hit shutout, he'd stay in, but, for the most part, three innings would be left for relievers.

That would keep him from overextending his arm or appearing too frequently (as he'd pretty much be on a strict regimen of appearance, two/ three days' rest, then work again throughout the season, when off-days and starting pitchers are added).

What's the harm in that?

The harm is that we want him pitching in high leverage situations so that the mop-up guys don't have to. You can't really plan those in advance and if he's to be used in such a manner it defeats the significant advantage of having him on the staff at all. Just stick him in AAA if this is the plan because he'd cause such a problem with the bullpen usage that he'd actually hurt the team by being there.

I'm all for some 2 or 3 inning stints, but do it when the situation calls for it. He could still get 100 innings in. I want to win in 2011. I want Chapman available to come in and get a K or 2 with 1 out in the 8th and tying and winning runs on base. The predetermined innings days defeats that entirely.

Spitball
01-31-2011, 09:24 PM
Borbon = Scary Dude


1973
After a Mets-Reds brawl Cincinnati reliever Pedro Borbon (below) mistakenly picks up the cap of New York's Buzz Capra. When he realizes what he's wearing, Borbon takes a bite out of the bill and spits it onto the ground. And so begins a series of incidents that will earn Borbon the nickname Dominican Dracula. In a '74 fight he bites Pirates pitcher Daryl Patterson on the ear. Asked if Patterson should get a tetanus shot, Borbon says, "No, a rabies shot." Later in his career Borbon would be arrested for biting the chest of a Cincinnati disco bouncer and fined $200 for returning several pieces of rental furniture with teeth marks in them.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1150664/index.htm#ixzz1CfM7NwQa