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View Full Version : If the NL had a DH Yonder Alonso could be on the active roster



Orenda
02-03-2011, 03:13 PM
Competitive advantage...AL

westofyou
02-03-2011, 03:21 PM
The DH is the sex doll of baseball, fake and plastic possessing the complexity of one as well.

The Operator
02-03-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't see how it's a competitive advantage at all.

The AL plays the AL and the NL plays the NL. Even when there is interleague play, the teams play by the same rules for the games they play against each other.

It really comes down to a matter of preference and I say BAH to the Designated Hitter.

Homer Bailey
02-03-2011, 03:49 PM
I don't see how it's a competitive advantage at all.

The AL plays the AL and the NL plays the NL. Even when there is interleague play, the teams play by the same rules for the games they play against each other.

It really comes down to a matter of preference and I say BAH to the Designated Hitter.

It's an incredible advantage. AL teams can employ players that can't play defense because they know they can plop them in the DH spot whenever they want. They can also afford to pay that guy $10M if they want to, and justify it by the fact that he'll play everyday.

I'll never forget when the Indians came to Great American a few years back, and Travis Hafner was so bad defensively he sat the bench in the NL park. The bases were loaded, and I think the 8th hitter for the Indians was up, and what do they do? They bring their .950+ OPS bat off the bench for one at bat. A player like him would have no role on an NL team, yet the AL team has the luxury of bringing him off the bench!

What does he do? Yep, grand slam.

camisadelgolf
02-03-2011, 03:56 PM
In theory, because there is only one positional difference in each league, it should affect only one roster spot for each team. In the Al, the 25th man goes to an all-bat, no-glove player who could only serve as a pinch-hitter in the NL. On the other hand, NL teams try to fill that spot with various types of players, but whether it's a pinch-hitting type, glove-first type, or relief pitcher, it's a player that still has value to an AL team. It's only a small competitive advantage as far as I can tell.

bucksfan2
02-03-2011, 03:59 PM
It's an incredible advantage. AL teams can employ players that can't play defense because they know they can plop them in the DH spot whenever they want. They can also afford to pay that guy $10M if they want to, and justify it by the fact that he'll play everyday.

I'll never forget when the Indians came to Great American a few years back, and Travis Hafner was so bad defensively he sat the bench in the NL park. The bases were loaded, and I think the 8th hitter for the Indians was up, and what do they do? They bring their .950+ OPS bat off the bench for one at bat. A player like him would have no role on an NL team, yet the AL team has the luxury of bringing him off the bench!

What does he do? Yep, grand slam.

Oh I think it does make a big difference. Granted they play each other very little but in terms of team construction it does matter. I got in a conversation with a big Yankee fan a couple of years ago. We were talking about our respective clubs and for some reason the DH came up. He made a point in comparing the Reds to the Red Sox. One on had the Reds for their bench need an super utility player who can play multiple positions and that player at the time was Ryan Freel. Because of the DH the Red Sox didn't need a utility player because the lack of the double switching and allowed them to have a David Ortiz on their team.

In essence I think it breaks down to this. Would the Reds be better off with Miguel Cairo or Jim Thome on the team? Remember Thome won't effect the team negatively on defense and only his offense will count.

Raisor
02-03-2011, 04:38 PM
I dig the DH myself, but it's probably because I grew to love baseball when I lived in Seattle. YMMV

RedsManRick
02-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Competitive advantage...AL

Head to head against the NL, maybe. But it also means that AL teams have to spend more money to build a competitive team, exacerbating differences in available resources.

TRF
02-03-2011, 04:55 PM
I believe the NL team known as the SF Giants are the current World Champions.

Since 2001, the NL has won the WS 5 times.

medford
02-03-2011, 04:56 PM
I think the dumbest thing about is, that a team can play just about the full season (save interleague games) with one set of rules, a roster employeed and designed to play under that set of rules. Then during half of their most important games of the year (for the two teams good enough to make the W-S) they have to play by a significantly different set of rules that may or may not ideally fit the set of personal that got them to that point.

Personally, I think they should outlaw the designated hitter. But if you're going to have it for one league, then you have to have it for everyone.

Puffy
02-03-2011, 05:12 PM
And if my Aunt had balls I'd be calling her Uncle Chasity (she is a former stripper. Long story).

Not sure what the point of thread is......

Chip R
02-03-2011, 05:14 PM
With all due respect, while it's true that if the NL had the DH Yonder could be on the roster the reality is that they don't so there's no use in worrying about it.

camisadelgolf
02-03-2011, 05:20 PM
With all due respect, while it's true that if the NL had the DH Yonder could be on the roster the reality is that they don't so there's no use in worrying about it.
If we brought that logic into every discussion on RedsZone, we'd have hardly any discussion. That's not a jab at any individual or group of people. I totally agree with you, but pointing out how a discussion of something hypothetical isn't realistic defeats the whole purpose of having a hypothetical discussion.

blumj
02-03-2011, 06:53 PM
The Reds already do carry a DH, they just have to play theirs in LF. Seriously, some NL teams do manage to fit a DH type on their roster, like Jason Giambi and Matt Stairs, and some AL teams choose to carry another infielder or outfielder or even another pitcher or catcher instead of one.

Spitball
02-03-2011, 09:33 PM
I don't care for the DH. I know some won't agree, but I believe it takes away from some strategic moves and the chance to second guess the manager.

With the pitcher's spot coming up second at the top of the fifth inning, does Baker keep a tiring Volquez in a tie game with two out, runners on first and third...and Pujols coming up? Should Baker take a chance on Volquez? Is the bullpen rested enough to waste a pitcher on 1/3 of an inning? Is it too early to make a double switch?

The DH may add more offense, but it takes away one of the aspects I really enjoy.

Does anyone remember Lou Piniella's first year in the N.L. (1990) when he forgot to make a key double switch perhaps because of inexperience with the move? It may have been in the NLCS versus the Pirates, but I really can't remember the details.

KronoRed
02-03-2011, 11:05 PM
The DH...yuck, may as well go all the way with the designated runner and a designated defender....fake baseball.

blumj
02-04-2011, 01:08 AM
I do prefer the DH, both because I grew up an AL fan and because the only thing worse than watching most pitchers try to hit is watching certain aging hitters attempt to field. You can always take a break when the pitcher's due up, but there's not much warning when someone hits a ball out in the vicinity of you-know-who and, the next thing you know, it's like a car crash and you can't look away.

Ron Madden
02-04-2011, 04:00 AM
The Reds already do carry a DH, they just have to play theirs in LF. Seriously, some NL teams do manage to fit a DH type on their roster, like Jason Giambi and Matt Stairs, and some AL teams choose to carry another infielder or outfielder or even another pitcher or catcher instead of one.

This is often very true.

I was about to type a long winded post to as exactly why I agree but I really can't find the words to express my opinion without boring or offending anyone right now.

The Operator
02-05-2011, 04:46 AM
It's an incredible advantage. AL teams can employ players that can't play defense because they know they can plop them in the DH spot whenever they want. They can also afford to pay that guy $10M if they want to, and justify it by the fact that he'll play everyday.

I'll never forget when the Indians came to Great American a few years back, and Travis Hafner was so bad defensively he sat the bench in the NL park. The bases were loaded, and I think the 8th hitter for the Indians was up, and what do they do? They bring their .950+ OPS bat off the bench for one at bat. A player like him would have no role on an NL team, yet the AL team has the luxury of bringing him off the bench!

What does he do? Yep, grand slam.I see your point, but that's kind of an outlier if you ask me. If you have a solid bench you'll get your fair share of pinch-hit homers.

And as others have noted, more and more AL teams aren't using the DH the same way it's always been used. I remember seeing some stats on here over the summer that showed that the DH in general isn't quite putting up the numbers it used to. Obviously any DH can outperform a pitcher, though.

I just don't think it's a huge head-to-head advantage. Even for the NL teams playing in AL parks, they might be able to DH one of their weak-fielding regulars and put a slick fielder in the spot vacated by the guy DH'ing for the day.

Yachtzee
02-05-2011, 07:23 AM
I see your point, but that's kind of an outlier if you ask me. If you have a solid bench you'll get your fair share of pinch-hit homers.

And as others have noted, more and more AL teams aren't using the DH the same way it's always been used. I remember seeing some stats on here over the summer that showed that the DH in general isn't quite putting up the numbers it used to. Obviously any DH can outperform a pitcher, though.

I just don't think it's a huge head-to-head advantage. Even for the NL teams playing in AL parks, they might be able to DH one of their weak-fielding regulars and put a slick fielder in the spot vacated by the guy DH'ing for the day.

I seem to remember the Indians employing Kevin Seitzer as a DH for a while and he wasn't even hitting the Mendoza Line. Only so many teams can afford a Big Papi-type DH. Other teams forge ahead with what they have on hand.

Yachtzee
02-05-2011, 07:25 AM
All players should be expected to play the field and step up to the plate. If a player is a defensive liability, so be it.

Orenda
02-05-2011, 12:15 PM
How often do AL teams trade blocked prospects as opposed to NL teams? It's not something I've paid attention to, but thinking of the reds situation makes me think that the DH could provide not only an offensive advantage but a player development advantage because it gives you added flexibility, you can play a younger blocked positional player in the field while not losing a bat by letting the regular player DH and vice versa.

jojo
02-05-2011, 01:53 PM
The true advantage that the DH affords a team is a little more roster flexibility.

jmcclain19
02-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Having the pitcher bat is a relic of a bygone era.

There is no amazing bit of strategy to do a double switch or have the pitcher bunt. It's about the most mind numbing decision a manager makes. If anything, it completely removes any bit of strategy from the game.

OMG there is a runner on. The pitcher is bunting again. SHOCKING.

OMG its late in the game - will he let the reliever who's batted once in the last four seasons bat? Or will he put in a PH? We must know what bit of strategy the manager will enlighten us with.

I'd take an AB from guys like Jim Thome, David Ortiz or Jack Cust against your best pitcher any day of the week. Watching hacks like Aaron Harang, Homer Bailey and crew swing at a baseball like a they are using a boat oar makes me want to gouge out my eyeballs.

Get out of the 40s and 50s guys. The Studebaker ain't coming back. Roosevelt is dead. Sock Hops aren't making a comeback.

Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best.

Redsfan320
02-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best.

That would be playing baseball. Everybody else has to do it.


Get out of the 40s and 50s guys. The Studebaker ain't coming back. Roosevelt is dead. Sock Hops aren't making a comeback.

Just because its old, that doesn't mean its bad.

320

TRF
02-05-2011, 05:28 PM
That would be playing baseball. Everybody else has to do it.



Just because its old, that doesn't mean its bad.

320

The above post was tbe post of the year so far. Especially considering the source.

dougdirt
02-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Sock Hops aren't making a comeback.



But they should.

Caveman Techie
02-05-2011, 05:41 PM
I hate the DH with every fiber of my being. The man who came up with it should burn for all times in the pit of hades.

But other than that it's ok.

RANDY IN INDY
02-05-2011, 05:56 PM
Having the pitcher bat is a relic of a bygone era.

There is no amazing bit of strategy to do a double switch or have the pitcher bunt. It's about the most mind numbing decision a manager makes. If anything, it completely removes any bit of strategy from the game.

OMG there is a runner on. The pitcher is bunting again. SHOCKING.

OMG its late in the game - will he let the reliever who's batted once in the last four seasons bat? Or will he put in a PH? We must know what bit of strategy the manager will enlighten us with.

I'd take an AB from guys like Jim Thome, David Ortiz or Jack Cust against your best pitcher any day of the week. Watching hacks like Aaron Harang, Homer Bailey and crew swing at a baseball like a they are using a boat oar makes me want to gouge out my eyeballs.

Get out of the 40s and 50s guys. The Studebaker ain't coming back. Roosevelt is dead. Sock Hops aren't making a comeback.

Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best.

Appreciate your love for the DH but, sorry. Hate it. Always will hate it. I love to watch athletic pitchers like Mike Leake and Travis Wood, even Bronson Arroyo, come to the plate. They have a little pride, and actually work at swinging the bat. I like the strategy of the NL game when a pitcher is pitching a great game in the 7th inning, tied score or down 1-0. Pitchers spot comes to the plate. PH or leave him in? Managers have to know how to use their bullpen, how to double switch. Give me the NL game any day of the week. To each his own but personally, I hate the DH. Next thing you know, they will have a defensive team and an offensive team like football. Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best. Wonderful. Not for me.:rolleyes:

Redsfan320
02-05-2011, 06:03 PM
The above post was tbe post of the year so far. Especially considering the source.

Lol, thanks. Just saying how I feel about the DH.

320

blumj
02-05-2011, 06:28 PM
I would watch a weird hybrid baseball/football kind of game, that sounds like fun.

jojo
02-05-2011, 07:09 PM
There's reasons to prefer the NL rules over the AL but watching the pitcher bat is NOT one of them.

jojo
02-05-2011, 07:21 PM
Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best.

Embrace watching the best athletes do what they do worst?

I'd watch Edgar Martinez hit over Mike Leake every day of the week. The baseball fans who got to see Edgar hit should be grateful because they saw one of the game's greater hitters.

Watching the number 8 guy get pitched around so that Leake can create an out because he was going to create an out anyway? Well that's cute like a bulldog.

Watching the pitcher have to actually pitch lends itself overall to more compelling PAs.

Redsfan320
02-05-2011, 07:25 PM
I'd watch Edgar Martinez hit over Mike Leake every day of the week. The baseball fans who got to see Edgar hit should be grateful because they saw one of the game's greater hitters.

He's welcome to pick up a glove and learn the other half of the game like everyone else. That's baseball.

320

jojo
02-05-2011, 07:35 PM
He's welcome to pick up a glove and learn the other half of the game like everyone else. That's baseball.

320

The funny thing about the DH is that quite a few PAs are from guys who are capable defenders. Many teams use it as a way to manage platoon advantages....in essence the double switch we get to watch in the NL because the pitcher makes three pitiful outs leading to a 6th or 7th inning decision is replaced by macro roster managing... The AL game isn't the mindless entity many NL purists insist it is....it's just different and thus presents different decisions.

For those who love the poetry inherent in the battle between pitcher and batter, it's literary gold because the pitcher doesn't get to take two batters off each trip through the lineup.

Watching the defense shift to defend a sacrifice is art as well but really, the majority of pitchers suck at bunting and on average it's like watching the off-broadway performance of last year's Tony Award winner.

There's alot of chaff in the NL game.

jojo
02-05-2011, 08:04 PM
He's welcome to pick up a glove and learn the other half of the game like everyone else. That's baseball.

320

Truthfully there really seems to be a disconnect with NL fans who abhor the DH. Generally they don't rail against bullpen specialists.

Isn't the guy who has obscene platoon splits, only one pitch, and faces only batters of certain handedness for maybe an out or two more of an affront to the romantic notion of the "true" ball player?

I love baseball and like both the NL and the AL. I can't get enough baseball. I think the hatred of the DH is really often derived more from a love of tradition than its based upon flaws in style.

Orenda
02-05-2011, 08:31 PM
Truthfully there really seems to be a disconnect with NL fans who abhor the DH. Generally they don't rail against bullpen specialists.

Isn't the guy who has obscene platoon splits, only one pitch, and faces only batters of certain handedness for maybe an out or two more of an affront to the romantic notion of the "true" ball player?

I love baseball and like both the NL and the AL. I can't get enough baseball. I think the hatred of the DH is really often derived more from a love of tradition than its based upon flaws in style.

I'd prefer a DH also but my main gripe is that the leagues are playing by a different set of rules. Does that exist anywhere else in professional sports?

Big Klu
02-05-2011, 10:04 PM
Next thing you know, they will have a defensive team and an offensive team like football. Embrace watching the best athletes doing what they do best. Wonderful. Not for me.:rolleyes:

Aha! I have mentioned this to some of my friends. The DH rule doesn't go far enough! A club should be allowed to use up to nine DH's to bat for the nine position players--have a true offensive squad and defensive squad, like in football. Who wants to see a weak-hitting SS or C anyway? But Willy Taveras and Paul Bako would have been a lot more bearable if they only had to play defense!

Of course, a few players would be good enough to play both ways, but they would be rare.

Redsfan320
02-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Aha! I have mentioned this to some of my friends. The DH rule doesn't go far enough! A club should be allowed to use up to nine DH's to bat for the nine position players--have a true offensive squad and defensive squad, like in football. Who wants to see a weak-hitting SS or C anyway? But Willy Taveras and Paul Bako would have been a lot more bearable if they only had to play defense!

Of course, a few players would be good enough to play both ways, but they would be rare.

Before I embark on an absolute rant and come off looking like a fool because it was just a joke, I'll ask: Was your suggestion a joke or not?

320

The Operator
02-05-2011, 10:25 PM
I'd watch Edgar Martinez hit over Mike Leake every day of the week. The baseball fans who got to see Edgar hit should be grateful because they saw one of the game's greater hitters.

Watching the number 8 guy get pitched around so that Leake can create an out because he was going to create an out anyway? Well that's cute like a bulldog.I get what you're saying but I don't think I'd cite Mike Leake as a reason why pitchers shouldn't hit.

Dude batted at a .333 clip with a .407 OBP. There were everyday players creating outs at a higher percentage than he was. Heck, Brandon Phillips only beat him in OPS by .001.

Big Klu
02-05-2011, 10:40 PM
Before I embark on an absolute rant and come off looking like a fool because it was just a joke, I'll ask: Was your suggestion a joke or not?

320

Yes, it was sarcasm. I am strongly opposed to the DH in the NL, as I strongly prefer the National League's style of play and strategy. I have no problem with allowing the other league to use the DH, as it has never bothered me that the AL plays under "different rules". They have their game, and we (the NL) have ours.

However, although my theory/proposal of "DH to the Ninth Power" was facetious, the logic is sound. Why shouldn't some unknown league in the future decide that they want only the top offensive players to bat, and only the top glovemen to play the field? It would be radical, and unlike any form of baseball we see today, but there would probably be a market and fan base for it somewhere.



Truthfully there really seems to be a disconnect with NL fans who abhor the DH. Generally they don't rail against bullpen specialists.

Isn't the guy who has obscene platoon splits, only one pitch, and faces only batters of certain handedness for maybe an out or two more of an affront to the romantic notion of the "true" ball player?

I love baseball and like both the NL and the AL. I can't get enough baseball. I think the hatred of the DH is really often derived more from a love of tradition than its based upon flaws in style.

I hate LOOGYs as much or more than I hate the DH. I wouldn't have one on my team if I were in the position to make those decisions. They are the primary reason that we now see 12- and 13-man pitching staffs (and occasionally even a 14-man staff!), which in turn cuts down on the number of available position players on the bench. I love having lefthanders in the pen, but in my opinion they must be able to get more than one batter out. If you can't pitch to more than one or two guys in an appearance, then I have no use for you.

jojo
02-05-2011, 10:44 PM
I get what you're saying but I don't think I'd cite Mike Leake as a reason why pitchers shouldn't hit.

Dude batted at a .333 clip with a .407 OBP. There were everyday players creating outs at a higher percentage than he was. Heck, Brandon Phillips only beat him in OPS by .001.

I'm pretty comfortable with the notion that Leake isn't going to hit.

Spitball
02-05-2011, 11:25 PM
This argument is sort of like arguing frozen yogert or ice cream. Who is right? Well, reading this thread, it must be a matter of preference.

But, what about the DH role in the NL and how it would affect the smaller market teams. I remember a few years ago when Sports Illustrated ran an article on salaries by position, and the DH position was the highest paid position in baseball. How would that change baseball in small market cities?

jojo
02-05-2011, 11:30 PM
This argument is sort of like arguing frozen yogert or ice cream. Who is right? Well, reading this thread, it must be a matter of preference.

But, what about the DH role in the NL and how it would affect the smaller market teams. I remember a few years ago when Sports Illustrated ran an article on salaries by position, and the DH position was the highest paid position in baseball. How would that change baseball in small market cities?

It's largely a matter of taste and opposing the DH on traditional grounds is a valid view. But I think Jocketty would have a major advantage over other NL GMs if he had a DH given they way he operates on the margins of the 25 man roster/bench.

Spitball
02-06-2011, 12:01 AM
It's largely a matter of taste and opposing the DH on traditional grounds is a valid view. But I think Jocketty would have a major advantage over other NL GMs if he had a DH given they way he operates on the margins of the 25 man roster/bench.

It is hard to actually visualize what would happen with 30 teams filling the DH position as opposed to just 14. It is probably safe to assume that Gomes is not playing left field for the Reds at $1.8 million. Teams would probably see better defensive players in left field and first base.

blumj
02-06-2011, 12:42 AM
This argument is sort of like arguing frozen yogert or ice cream. Who is right? Well, reading this thread, it must be a matter of preference.

But, what about the DH role in the NL and how it would affect the smaller market teams. I remember a few years ago when Sports Illustrated ran an article on salaries by position, and the DH position was the highest paid position in baseball. How would that change baseball in small market cities?
Teams would probably be less reluctant to turn cheap young players into DHs if there was more demand for cheap young DHs. And some DHs make a lot of money because they've aged into the job toward the end of big contracts. But I personally don't have a problem with one league using the DH and the other league not using it, they play so many games and so few where AL meets NL and it's not even close to the only weird thing about baseball. The playing fields aren't even all the same size and shape. It's just such a quirky game, what's one more quirk?