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View Full Version : Ohlendorf (1-11 record) defeats Pirates in arbitration



Blitz Dorsey
02-10-2011, 12:46 AM
Good to know the arbitrator understands that ERA and WHIP are better measuring sticks for pitchers than W-L record:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6105146

But still ... $2 million for Ross Ohlendorf? Seems a bit much. The news keeps getting better for the Buccos.

redsmetz
02-10-2011, 05:21 AM
Good to know the arbitrator understands that ERA and WHIP are better measuring sticks for pitchers than W-L record:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6105146

But still ... $2 million for Ross Ohlendorf? Seems a bit much. The news keeps getting better for the Buccos.

The thing with the "either/or" decision of arbitration is that if one side or the other comes in with a number that's off, they're not going to succeed. Seeing the comparison to Volquez's salary in the article ($1.625), made it clear that the Pirates weren't going to win this one. They should have settled before arbitration and saved a few hundred grand. I'm guessing they could come in at around $1.7 or so had they done that.

cumberlandreds
02-10-2011, 07:19 AM
Arbitration was the worst thing that the owners gave to the players back when free agency was starting up. They have been paying for it ever since with stupid desicions like this one with a big raises for extremely poor perfromances.

PuffyPig
02-10-2011, 07:35 AM
Arbitration was the worst thing that the owners gave to the players back when free agency was starting up. They have been paying for it ever since with stupid desicions like this one with a big raises for extremely poor perfromances.

That's the point, he didn't have "an extremely poor performance".

oneupper
02-10-2011, 08:18 AM
Pirates were offering $1.4 million. Ross wanted $2 million.
We're only really talking about $600.000 here, probably less assuming they could have settled in the middle.

That said, I wouldn't want Ohlendorf at either price.

lollipopcurve
02-10-2011, 08:45 AM
The ever-visionary Bucs FO coming through again as they take on one of their starters over what probably amounted to $300K. And lose.

westofyou
02-10-2011, 09:06 AM
The ever-visionary Bucs FO coming through again as they take on one of their starters over what probably amounted to $300K. And lose.

I envy them, so many ground breaking moves to make.

Tony Cloninger
02-10-2011, 09:19 AM
To think that back in 1973 the owners thought this was a good idea in order to avoid the yearly holdouts that had been happening at the beginning of the 70's.

I remember during the middle 80's it was getting out of hand.....who can forget the Kal Daniels and Marge Schott coin flip?

westofyou
02-10-2011, 09:29 AM
To think that back in 1973 the owners thought this was a good idea in order to avoid the yearly holdouts that had been happening at the beginning of the 70's.

I remember during the middle 80's it was getting out of hand.....who can forget the Kal Daniels and Marge Schott coin flip?

The owners thought it was a good idea, Miller thought it was great. The players approached it from a better angle, they brought real stats and they used other players as comps. They also won out by using the young stars as the comps, the guys who were getting their FA years bought out early on. Prior to this the comps were always leveled at players through the lens of he's a "5 year player" , he's a "6 year player" and thus slotted accordingly.

Once that matrix fell it became numbers, and the players armed themselves better for the battle (Bill Jame's was a regular player in early arb hearings in providing stats for the players case.)

Homer Bailey
02-10-2011, 09:51 AM
Only the Pirates would lose arbitration to a pitcher with a 1-11 record.

Blitz Dorsey
02-10-2011, 09:53 AM
The ever-visionary Bucs FO coming through again as they take on one of their starters over what probably amounted to $300K. And lose.

But $300K to the Pirates is a lot -- that's roughly how much revenue they will generate this season from a ticket sales perspective. :D

dfs
02-10-2011, 10:33 AM
Arbitration was the worst thing that the owners gave to the players back when free agency was starting up. They have been paying for it ever since with stupid desicions like this one with a big raises for extremely poor perfromances.

If arbitration was that bad for the owners, they would simply stop offering it and let all the talent walk.

At that point the market would be flooded with talent and prices would drop.

We've started to see that with guys in the free agent class, but not in the years 4-6 arbitration group. I have to think that means those guys in years 4-6 are still a pretty good bargain for the clubs no matter how much they whine about arbitration.

camisadelgolf
02-10-2011, 11:08 AM
Is anyone else's head itching? Ohlendorf is going to make $375,000 more than Edinson Volquez this year.
nb4dandruffjoke

dougdirt
02-10-2011, 11:42 AM
Is anyone else's head itching? Ohlendorf is going to make $375,000 more than Edinson Volquez this year.
nb4dandruffjoke

Ohlendorf over the last two seasons:
285 innings, 3.98 ERA, 1.29 WHIP

Volquez over the last two seasons:
112.1 innings, 4.33 ERA, 1.42 WHIP

If you are going to be presenting a case based on numbers, Volquez is likely to lose. Now, is anyone going to really take Ohlendorf over Volquez moving forward? Doubtful. But he deserves the money he is getting. The guy has been a pretty solid pitcher the last two seasons.

camisadelgolf
02-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Ohlendorf over the last two seasons:
285 innings, 3.98 ERA, 1.29 WHIP

Volquez over the last two seasons:
112.1 innings, 4.33 ERA, 1.42 WHIP

If you are going to be presenting a case based on numbers, Volquez is likely to lose. Now, is anyone going to really take Ohlendorf over Volquez moving forward? Doubtful. But he deserves the money he is getting. The guy has been a pretty solid pitcher the last two seasons.
Yeah, I don't mean to say it's unfair or unreasonable. It's just that it's pretty obvious what a talent gap there is between those two. But to your point, it's not like the numbers prior to 2009 would be ignored in an arbitration case. If you look at both of their career numbers, this is what you get:

Ross Ohlendorf
354 IP, 246 SO, 13 wins, 25 losses, 4.40 ERA, 1.390 WHIP, 3.3 WAR (b-r)

Edinson Volquez
388.1 IP, 375 SO, 28 wins, 22 losses, 4.36 ERA, 1.476 WHIP, one All-Star appearance, 4.2 WAR (b-r)

With the exception of WHIP, Volquez is superior in pretty much every way according to the numbers. And if you want to cherry-pick stats to make an argument, let's compare what each has done since 2008 as opposed to 2009.

blumj
02-10-2011, 12:43 PM
Arbitration was the worst thing that the owners gave to the players back when free agency was starting up. They have been paying for it ever since with stupid desicions like this one with a big raises for extremely poor perfromances.
The team's the one with the choice. Everyone knows about what these guys are going to get by now, if you don't think a starting pitcher's even worth $2M for a year, what are you doing offering him anything?

redsmetz
02-10-2011, 01:26 PM
Is anyone else's head itching? Ohlendorf is going to make $375,000 more than Edinson Volquez this year.
nb4dandruffjoke

The question actually is whether he should have been paid nearly $400K less than Volquez. His figure was closer to what the market probably would have paid him than the Pirates. Not sure why they chose not to settle, accept that they assumed with a 1-11 record, he didn't stand a chance. Clearly the arbitrator could see more deeply than his won-lost record on a pathetic team.

kaldaniels
02-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Nothing more here than a public relations fail for the Pirates. Ohlendorf getting 2 MM is no big deal, and he is well worth it IMO.

CarolinaRedleg
02-10-2011, 08:40 PM
The Pirates and losing. Some things just fit.

dougdirt
02-10-2011, 08:46 PM
Yeah, I don't mean to say it's unfair or unreasonable. It's just that it's pretty obvious what a talent gap there is between those two. But to your point, it's not like the numbers prior to 2009 would be ignored in an arbitration case. If you look at both of their career numbers, this is what you get:

Ross Ohlendorf
354 IP, 246 SO, 13 wins, 25 losses, 4.40 ERA, 1.390 WHIP, 3.3 WAR (b-r)

Edinson Volquez
388.1 IP, 375 SO, 28 wins, 22 losses, 4.36 ERA, 1.476 WHIP, one All-Star appearance, 4.2 WAR (b-r)

With the exception of WHIP, Volquez is superior in pretty much every way according to the numbers. And if you want to cherry-pick stats to make an argument, let's compare what each has done since 2008 as opposed to 2009.

Eh, innings, ERA and WHIP are all VERY close there. The only major differences is the win/loss record and strikeout numbers.

camisadelgolf
02-11-2011, 08:21 AM
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/onestepahead/knockout.png

Patrick Bateman
02-11-2011, 12:53 PM
He's a pretty poor pitchers no matter how you look at it, unless you are just totally on an ERA/WHIP fix.

Better than his W-L record, but the guy is 5th starter/long reliever material.
If he was a free agent right now, would have probably gotten less than that.

dougdirt
02-11-2011, 04:13 PM
He's a pretty poor pitchers no matter how you look at it, unless you are just totally on an ERA/WHIP fix.

Better than his W-L record, but the guy is 5th starter/long reliever material.
If he was a free agent right now, would have probably gotten less than that.

And yet his base runners allowed and runs allowed are better than what you suggest. Maybe you are underestimating his skillset just a little bit? A 5th starter type doesn't usually post an ERA under 4 over two consecutive seasons do they? If so, we should really look at finding more of those 5th starter/long reliever types.

RedsManRick
02-11-2011, 04:23 PM
You know, I find it funny that when a non-Red puts up a mid 4's FIP and a 4ish ERA, people start asking questions about the sustainability of his performance. But when a Reds starter puts up a mid 4's FIP and a 4ish ERA, people swear up and down that he's just got a special ability to make batters hit the ball weakly.

Just saying, arbitration tends to pay guys roughly 40% of FA value in the 1st year, 60% in the 2nd, and 80% in the 3rd. if Arroyo is a $12M pitcher, then you'd think Ohlendorf getting 17% wouldn't get anybody riled up.