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cinreds21
02-10-2011, 03:08 PM
The Cleveland Indians have reportedly signed former Reds infielder Orlando Cabrera to a contract.


SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
orlando cabrera is headed to the #indians. good pickup for them
3 minutes ago

Redsfan320
02-10-2011, 03:09 PM
Beat me to the chase by 1 minute.

320

edabbs44
02-10-2011, 03:10 PM
We'll always have 2010.

membengal
02-10-2011, 03:37 PM
Further proof that once you succumb to Goodyear's charms, you can never really get away.

westofyou
02-10-2011, 03:43 PM
There goes his been with a winner streak

Spitball
02-10-2011, 03:49 PM
There goes his been with a winner streak

Soon to be followed by his been with any team streak.

*BaseClogger*
02-10-2011, 04:59 PM
There goes his been with a winner streak

He will be on somebody's playoff bench, just not Cleveland's...

RedsBaron
02-10-2011, 05:00 PM
Has Cleveland started printing playoff tickets?

westofyou
02-10-2011, 05:28 PM
He will be on somebody's playoff bench, just not Cleveland's...

Who picks up a SS for the bench?

RedsManRick
02-10-2011, 05:47 PM
Who picks up a SS for the bench?

Don't worry, he's competing for the 2B gig...

redsfan30
02-10-2011, 05:55 PM
He'll always have a special place in my Reds fan heart.

OnBaseMachine
02-10-2011, 06:04 PM
I always loved watching Cabrera when he was with the Expos. He could really pick it at SS and was a decent hitter too. He wasn't nearly the same player last season due to age, but I'll still remember him as being on the team that ended the 15 year playoff drought.

*BaseClogger*
02-10-2011, 06:22 PM
Who picks up a SS for the bench?

He can be this year's Miguel Tejada! (oops ;))

Edd Roush
02-10-2011, 08:52 PM
Don't worry, he's competing for the 2B gig...

My friend who is an Indians' fan seems to think he will be competing with Jayson Nix for the third base job. The years of hoping Andy Marte will figure it out are over in Cleveland.

reds44
02-10-2011, 09:13 PM
The thing I'll remember most about OC was when he got hurt in game 2 and everyone in the game thread was happy about it lol.

Ron Madden
02-11-2011, 05:30 AM
The thing I'll remember most about OC was when he got hurt in game 2 and everyone in the game thread was happy about it lol.

I was not in favor of the Reds signing Cabrera in 2010, IMHO he just couldn't cut it defensively at SS anymore but I would never wish injury on anyone.

I have to admit he played better than I expected and he still was pretty bad. He had all the range of a parking meter.

.

Homer Bailey
02-11-2011, 01:40 PM
I was not in favor of the Reds signing Cabrera in 2010, IMHO he just couldn't cut it defensively at SS anymore but I would never wish injury on anyone.

I have to admit he played better than I expected and he still was pretty bad. He had all the range of a parking meter.

.

Yet he was an above average defender at short last year, and as an average over the last 3 years.

Amazing.

Redsfan320
02-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Yet he was an above average defender at short last year, and as an average over the last 3 years.

Amazing.

I've been delving into sabermetrics a lot lately and liking what I see, but a stat that has OCab as "above average" last year loses some credibility with me. I like stats, but I saw him with my own eyes too, and he was not above average. "Average" is kind. I cannot attest to the past 3 years, just last year.

320

Patrick Bateman
02-11-2011, 01:51 PM
I've been delving into sabermetrics a lot lately and liking what I see, but a stat that has OCab as "above average" last year loses some credibility with me. I like stats, but I saw him with my own eyes too, and he was not above average. "Average" is kind. I cannot attest to the past 3 years, just last year.

320

Or maybe in the stats' eyes, you lose some credibility?

Just a thought.

It's not like you watched every game of all SS last year to even compare what average means.

Not that I necessarily thought that O-Cab was a good fielder last year. Just devil's advocate.

To me, it's one thing to disagree, than to argue a stat is not credible because you saw something different.

IMO, Cabrera wasn't so bad/good either way last year that knowing the deficiencies of the human mind can try to kill the stats. But alas, that's just an opinion too.

Homer Bailey
02-11-2011, 01:52 PM
I've been delving into sabermetrics a lot lately and liking what I see, but a stat that has OCab as "above average" last year loses some credibility with me. I like stats, but I saw him with my own eyes too, and he was not above average. "Average" is kind. I cannot attest to the past 3 years, just last year.

320

Your eyes did not see him compared to the rest of the league, which is what UZR, in a sense, does.

Redsfan320
02-11-2011, 02:05 PM
No, I didn't see all of OC's games, and I certainly didn't see all of the rest of MLB. But I saw enough to wear I feel that I can make an accurate opinion of it.

However, to say a stat loses credibility based on its measure of one player was a poor choice of words. Stats can be "wrong" on one player without being a "bad" stat.

And Patrick, feel free to play devil's advocate. Challenges are what keep arguments interesting. :thumbup:


IMO, Cabrera wasn't so bad/good either way last year that knowing the deficiencies of the human mind can try to kill the stats. But alas, that's just an opinion too.

But the stats were just created by human minds too.

320

Ron Madden
02-12-2011, 06:59 AM
Yet he was an above average defender at short last year, and as an average over the last 3 years.

Amazing.


Yes it is kinda Amazing.

I'm far from an Experienced Scout of Baseball Talent and I don't have all the mathematical skills of most of my SABR friends but I do have an opinion.

Just as I believe all human beings have a right to their opinion so do I believe none of us has the right for our opinions to go undisputed.

With that said, here's my humble and honest opinion...

I've come to love and trust the so-called newer offensive metrics but just can't place any faith in the newer defensive metrics.

I believe defensive stats will be skewed as long as managers start players based on their past reputation as a good defensive players or because they'll start poor defenders over good defenders because of a 25 point differential in batting average. When this happens we have a pool of bad, below average, and average defenders.

Suddenly the average looks great, the below average looks average, and the bad looks average.

I just can't get a good grip on it yet but I'm trying. ;)

cincrazy
02-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Or maybe in the stats' eyes, you lose some credibility?

Just a thought.

It's not like you watched every game of all SS last year to even compare what average means.

Not that I necessarily thought that O-Cab was a good fielder last year. Just devil's advocate.

To me, it's one thing to disagree, than to argue a stat is not credible because you saw something different.

IMO, Cabrera wasn't so bad/good either way last year that knowing the deficiencies of the human mind can try to kill the stats. But alas, that's just an opinion too.

I have a hard time seeing defensive metrics as hardcore stats. I'm not saying Cabrera was the worst SS in the league last year, but in my eyes, he wasn't average, regardless of what the math punched into the calculator spits out.

Will M
02-12-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't watch enough non Reds games to make a judgement call on every SS in the league. I do watch a lot of Reds games. UZR rated Cabrera ahead of Janish defensively. Hmmm. IMO Janish is no Ozzie Smith but he is clearly better defensively than Cabrera. (In fact Janish seems better defensively than just about any post Larkin SS the Reds have had).

I tend to agree with those who say UZR & other defensive stats are a work in progress.

WebScorpion
02-13-2011, 06:12 PM
I tend to agree with those who say UZR & other defensive stats are a work in progress.
+1 :thumbup:

top6
02-13-2011, 06:26 PM
I think most people in this thread are missing the real point, which is that the Indians obviously feel that they need a new bat boy (http://espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/73939/orlando-cabrera-calls-himself-up-to-play-batboy).