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View Full Version : Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited



redsfandan
02-12-2011, 10:52 AM
For the most part, Dusty has been 'ok'. But, I don't think that his defenders can dispute that this is a black mark against his record as Reds manager. Although, I bet a few might try.


... The pitch total: 239 in eight days (including 2 starts and his relief outing). Harang was 2-6 with a 3.50 ERA before the relief appearance. He was 4-11 with a 5.88 ERA after that game.

...

“What it did,” said Harang, “is fatigue me beyond the point of recovery. I started to change my arm angle to compensate for the fatigue and that’s when my forearm started to bother me.”


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/feb/11/padres-harang-homing-return-dominance/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
I've had people around here defend Dusty and his handling of the Reds young pitchers to me. But, I think we've been lucky that, so far, Dusty hasn't made a similar mistake with Cueto, Bailey, Wood, Chapman, etc.

Hopefully, Harang can get his mechanics back in sync and rebound to be closer to the pitcher he was, and should still be, as a Red.

cincrazy
02-12-2011, 11:06 AM
I'm not trying to sound callous, but it seems to me as if Harang is just making excuses. He never brought this up as being a factor in his time in Cincinnati, now the first minute he's out of town, he's pointing back to "the game."

Maybe it did have a affect him for the rest of that season, but for so many seasons going forward? I just don't see it.

Dusty has done fine in his tenure as the Reds manager, and he has an NL Central crown to boot. I've had no problem with his handling of the pitchers.

Phhhl
02-12-2011, 11:17 AM
I don't think he is making excuses at all. It was evident to many of us that this is precisely what happened to Aaron Harang. We got shouted down, for the most part. Harang didn't bring it up, so it kind of went away. The Reds probably could not afford him now with the career path he was on, but how much better would the Reds' chances have been with a productive Harang in the playoffs last year? I am glad he is speaking out about it now. Dusty has redeemed himself in many ways, but the way he used Harang in that game, and maybe even more agregiously the start he made three days later, was nothing less than a crime.

RedsBaron
02-12-2011, 11:30 AM
I wish Harang well, althought the odds are probably against him ever returning to the effectiveness he previously had. Yes, there is no excuse for Dusty Baker's infamous handling of him, but that was just Dusty being Dusty.

Eric_the_Red
02-12-2011, 11:35 AM
If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.

westofyou
02-12-2011, 11:37 AM
Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.

redsfandan
02-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Maybe it did have a affect him for the rest of that season, but for so many seasons going forward? I just don't see it.
There was another quote from Harang in the article that basically left the impression, at least with me, that his mechanics got so screwed up in that relief outing that he wasn't able to fix his mechanics when he was with the Reds.

If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.
I thought someone would say something like that. I'm all for personal responsibility. But, there are pitchers that, if it was up to them, would be out there until their arm fell off it. The difference here is that Dusty not only let it happen but he essentially, unknowingly, made it happen. Part of his job is deciding who is and isn't in the game. And, on that day, he made a costly mistake.

lollipopcurve
02-12-2011, 11:51 AM
It was terrible handling of the staff -- and many of us said so at the time -- regardless of how the pitchers fared. There was no excuse for how Baker/Pole lined up the guys in that extra inning game in SD and afterward. I've objected a lot to the handling of Cordero, too. Will be interesting to see what happens with Chapman at the back of ballgames (cringe).

Overall, I like Baker. Real strengths and, I would say, real weaknesses.

Joseph
02-12-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't doubt it played into things, but Harang is 6'-7"+/- and he was a horse of a man. His body is his own worst enemy.

bucksfan2
02-12-2011, 12:41 PM
I found no fault at the time and still find no fault now for the way Dusty managed the game against SD. You manage the game to win and Harang's entrance into the game was a direct result of that. What I do find some fault in is how they stacked the rotation after that game. But then again I would imagine Dusty, Pole, and Harang made that decision. Harang signed off on the next start and the rest is infamous history.

The issue I have with the situation is even if he did screw up his arm he had two off seasons to get rested and never needed surgery (for the arm). Harang was a loyal solider and a good citizen during his time in Cincy. I think his demise is a lot more than just 4 ill fated innings pitched 3 years ago.

RFS62
02-12-2011, 12:53 PM
Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.



This.

redsfandan
02-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.

So, because you expect he wouldn't last as long as other pitchers is reason enough to shrug off Harang falling apart at the age of 30? Umm ok, if you say so.

Griffey012
02-12-2011, 01:26 PM
Harang dominated in that relief appearance, how were his mechanics screwed up then? And as someone else stated if he was fatigued beyond recovery he should have said so and spent a stint on the DL. I am curious how many pitches he would throw in his normal bullpen session between starts?

Either way I hope Harang is great in San Diego, but what is done is done and I am ready to move past him. And I do not fault Baker for it, In Dusty I Trusty.

jojo
02-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Anyone else see the irony here.... San Diego ruined his career and now San Diego may resurrect it..

TheNext44
02-12-2011, 01:50 PM
I have no problem with how Dusty pitched Harang that day. Putting a starting pitcher into and extra inning game has been done countless times in baseball history without much fanfare, or ruining of a pitcher.

However, the Reds made a terrible mistake in starting Harang just three days after that extra inning stint. If any damage was done to Harang's arm, it was then, in rushing him back to the rotation. That explains Harang's fatigue more than pitching in extra innings. Iirc, the main reason why he was asked to start just three days later was that Krivsky didn't have space on the roster to call anyone up.

Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season. Harang wasn't exactly pitching great before that stint, so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline.

Spitball
02-12-2011, 02:12 PM
Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season.

I believe Harang pitched into the sixth inning in the previous start.


... so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline

I agree.

Spitball
02-12-2011, 02:32 PM
If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.

The relief appearance was two innings, but I agree.

westofyou
02-12-2011, 02:33 PM
So, because you expect he wouldn't last as long as other pitchers is reason enough to shrug off Harang falling apart at the age of 30? Umm ok, if you say so.
Am I 'shrugging" it off?

Not really, but I'm also not prone to thinking that that one incident is the only reason for his performance waning.

As for being just 30, a LOT of great pitchers were done by age 30, a lot.

edabbs44
02-12-2011, 02:33 PM
Lame on Harang's part. I guess his mechanics rebounded when he had a 6 QS streak later in the year, capped by a CG SHO vs the Cards. And then he remembered the SD game?

We also heard the same thing about Arroyo when he was doing his yo-yo act. Bad streak, Dusty's fault. Good streak, crickets. Wasn't there a point where Dusty ruined his career as well after a high pitch game vs SD?

edabbs44
02-12-2011, 02:34 PM
The relief appearance was two innings, but I agree.

I think it was 4. And a very solid 4, in fact, bad mechanics and all.

Spitball
02-12-2011, 02:36 PM
I think it was 4. And a very solid 4, in fact, bad mechanics and all.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pitchinglogs.php?p=haranaa01&y=2008

jojo
02-12-2011, 02:39 PM
I have no problem with how Dusty pitched Harang that day. Putting a starting pitcher into and extra inning game has been done countless times in baseball history without much fanfare, or ruining of a pitcher.

However, the Reds made a terrible mistake in starting Harang just three days after that extra inning stint. If any damage was done to Harang's arm, it was then, in rushing him back to the rotation. That explains Harang's fatigue more than pitching in extra innings. Iirc, the main reason why he was asked to start just three days later was that Krivsky didn't have space on the roster to call anyone up.

Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season. Harang wasn't exactly pitching great before that stint, so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline.

I don't remember the details anymore (and I'm too lazy to look them up) but part of why it was a poor decision was how it related to his normal throw days etc..

edabbs44
02-12-2011, 02:40 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pitchinglogs.php?p=haranaa01&y=2008

That's wrong

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=haranaa01&t=p&year=2008

Spitball
02-12-2011, 02:57 PM
That's wrong

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=haranaa01&t=p&year=2008

I see that now.

Caveat Emperor
02-12-2011, 03:32 PM
If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.

This.

And, really, what stopped him from finding his mechanics again for years after the incident? Seems like a lot of excuse-making behavior to me.

LoganBuck
02-12-2011, 03:48 PM
The most infuriating part of the whole thing was that Homer Bailey was scheduled to throw Tuesday or Wednesday that week at Louisville. They were stubborn and didn't call Homer up to make the spot start. Homer was on the 40 man, and could have provided at least some relief to the beleaguered staff. They were playing Pittsburgh of all teams, we weren't talking the 1927 Yankees.

Tom Servo
02-12-2011, 03:50 PM
I wouldn't have made the decision Dusty did but I can see why he did. Unfortunately what's done is done and to me there's no point in harping on it. It's worth the discussion but I don't think anyone should suddenly vilify Dusty for it.

reds44
02-12-2011, 04:28 PM
Aaron Harang's last three years in Cincinnati:
6-17, 4.78 ERA
6-14, 4.21 ERA
6-7, 5.32 ERA

Even if what he said is true, what was his excuse for being terrible last year?

CarolinaRedleg
02-12-2011, 04:50 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t224/grumbledog/silliness/BeatDeadHorse.gif

westofyou
02-12-2011, 04:59 PM
Being a BIG guy and a starter is a hard row to hoe, since expansion 53 guys has tall as Harang (6'7") have made at least 10 starts, only 13 reached 1000 IP pitched, in that same time span 341 guys have had 1300 IP and 200 games started (including Harang).


Concerning their height

The majority fall between 6'1 - 6'3

53 of those guys were 6'5 or more.

23 of those guys were 6'6 or more.

9 of those guys were 6'7 or more.

1961-2009

INNINGS PITCHED IP GS
1 Randy Johnson 4135.1 603
2 Rick Sutcliffe 2697.2 392
3 John Candelaria 2525.2 356
4 Mike Witt 2108.1 299
5 C.C. Sabathia 1889.1 288
6 J.R. Richard 1606 221
7 Dennis Rasmussen 1460.2 235
8 Mike Smithson 1356.1 204
9 Aaron Harang 1441.1 234


Was the SD relief appearance the straw that broke the camels back, or was the camel already in trouble based on the type of camel it was?

dougdirt
02-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Mark Prior didn't blame Dusty either, but that doesn't mean it wasn't his fault for causing the issues to arise sooner than they may have otherwise.

Harang was clearly a different pitcher after that game. Dusty rides his pitchers hard at times. Homer Bailey at the end of 2009, with nothing on the line is a good example of that. Sure, Dusty has been better than he has been in the past, but so has every manager in baseball because they all know they will get eaten alive by the fans and media if they don't pay a little more attention to work loads and usage patterns.

mth123
02-12-2011, 05:49 PM
I have no problem with how Dusty pitched Harang that day. Putting a starting pitcher into and extra inning game has been done countless times in baseball history without much fanfare, or ruining of a pitcher.

However, the Reds made a terrible mistake in starting Harang just three days after that extra inning stint. If any damage was done to Harang's arm, it was then, in rushing him back to the rotation. That explains Harang's fatigue more than pitching in extra innings. Iirc, the main reason why he was asked to start just three days later was that Krivsky didn't have space on the roster to call anyone up.

Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season. Harang wasn't exactly pitching great before that stint, so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline.

Agree about the start on short rest being worse than the relief outing itself. I'm all for trying to win that day, but Harang needed to be pushed back afterwards. Not sure I agree with the roster stuff. Harang was the ace on the big contract. It made no sense to risk him for the 40th man on the roster, I don't recall that, but if it happened that way, then Krivsky deserved his canning.

cincrazy
02-12-2011, 06:57 PM
Mark Prior didn't blame Dusty either, but that doesn't mean it wasn't his fault for causing the issues to arise sooner than they may have otherwise.

Harang was clearly a different pitcher after that game. Dusty rides his pitchers hard at times. Homer Bailey at the end of 2009, with nothing on the line is a good example of that. Sure, Dusty has been better than he has been in the past, but so has every manager in baseball because they all know they will get eaten alive by the fans and media if they don't pay a little more attention to work loads and usage patterns.

I'm not going to defend Dusty on the Prior count, because taking a look at that man's pitch counts down the stretch in 2003 tells you all you need to know. But I have a hard time believing that one four inning stint ruined Harang's career to the point to where he couldn't get it back.

True, Dusty has made mistakes in the past in regards to pitchers. But I just don't see that with Harang. If anything he was used too often before Dusty even showed up as manager.

Chip R
02-12-2011, 07:30 PM
Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season. Harang wasn't exactly pitching great before that stint, so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline.

This. +100.

redsfandan
02-12-2011, 07:38 PM
Am I 'shrugging" it off?

Not really, but I'm also not prone to thinking that that one incident is the only reason for his performance waning.

As for being just 30, a LOT of great pitchers were done by age 30, a lot.

His stats before and after imply that the 3 games in 8 days was a big part of the reason.

Dusty's job is to not only manage the game but the players too. Three days after his last start Harang pitched 4 innings (63 pitches) in relief and then 4 days later started his next game. So, you might as well say that he had 3 starts in 8 days. Now, when is it ever a good idea for a manager to have a pitcher do that?

It doesn't really matter that pitchers don't last forever. What matters is that the manager isn't supposed to help the pitcher down the road to being a has been. And handling a pitcher in a way that can screw up his mechanics isn't something that you give a pass on. Dusty isn't without strengths. Managing pitchers just isn't one of them. That he now has a NL Central crown on his resume as a Reds manager doesn't change that.

fearofpopvol1
02-12-2011, 08:04 PM
Aaron Harang's last three years in Cincinnati:
6-17, 4.78 ERA
6-14, 4.21 ERA
6-7, 5.32 ERA

Even if what he said is true, what was his excuse for being terrible last year?

That his arm permanently wasn't the same after that relief outing?

westofyou
02-12-2011, 08:06 PM
So, you might as well say that he had 3 starts in 8 days. Now, when is it ever a good idea for a manager to have a pitcher do that?


http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1968/Klolim1013171968.htm

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1988/Kherso0012211988.htm

MikeS21
02-12-2011, 08:26 PM
I cannot find the quote now, but I distinctly remember reading where Aaron Harang ASKED to be put into the game because it was his regular day to throw on the side, and he was going to throw 60 pitches anyway. Turns out that stint in relief was the sharpest I had seen Harang look up to that point in the season. Good control, good velocity, and kept the ball in the park (which isn't too hard to do in San Diego).

I know his season stats prior to that game were decent, but Harang just didn't look sharp up to that point, even though he was putting up decent numbers. His numbers were more a product of luck than skill. Too many hard hit balls, and his K/9 rate appeared to drop off. It is unfortunate that this particular game is pointed to as a turning point of some kind, but I see it as a case of the stats simply began catching up with his year-long sub-par performance.

kaldaniels
02-12-2011, 09:33 PM
Aaron Harang had 6 starts that September. He averaged 6.8 IP per start. He had an ERA of 3.07 that month. His last 2 starts that August he went a total of 13 IP giving up 3 runs. A very strong finish to the season.

So I do not for one second believe his struggles lately are due to an irreversible problem stemming from that game.

TheNext44
02-12-2011, 09:47 PM
Agree about the start on short rest being worse than the relief outing itself. I'm all for trying to win that day, but Harang needed to be pushed back afterwards. Not sure I agree with the roster stuff. Harang was the ace on the big contract. It made no sense to risk him for the 40th man on the roster, I don't recall that, but if it happened that way, then Krivsky deserved his canning.

I didn't mean to blame it all on Krivsky. Iirc, they needed every pitcher possible and they didn't want to go to 13 pitchers. I remember wanting them to send Fogg down, but Dusty and Pole felt they needed him. Baker and Pole probably had more to do with this decision than Krivsky. It was a team mistake.

Spitball
02-12-2011, 09:55 PM
I cannot find the quote now, but I distinctly remember reading where Aaron Harang ASKED to be put into the game because it was his regular day to throw on the side, and he was going to throw 60 pitches anyway.

I don't doubt your memory, but did Volquez also ask to be put into the game? Really, it isn't about playground rules, it is Baker's decision and responsibility about who plays in a game. He is a pretty highly paid manager.

That said, I highly doubt it was the relief appearance that was the major cause of his problems. I believe Harang would have regained his mechanics sometime between 2008 and 2010 unless he had suffered an injury. But, where was the injury? Until last year's slightly mysterious back injury, he apparently had no injury.

PuffyPig
02-12-2011, 10:00 PM
Aaron Harang had 6 starts that September. He averaged 6.8 IP per start. He had an ERA of 3.07 that month. His last 2 starts that August he went a total of 13 IP giving up 3 runs. A very strong finish to the season.



I don't know the answer to this, but was he misisng bats dureing that period?

A good ERA over a short period can be pretty meaningless.

Strikes Out Looking
02-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Is this the same Aaron Harang that supposedly begged to be put back into a game after a 2 hour rain delay to finish the 5th inning so he would qualify for a victory? Just asking.

TheNext44
02-12-2011, 10:19 PM
I don't know the answer to this, but was he misisng bats dureing that period?

A good ERA over a short period can be pretty meaningless.

Just for the record...

During that period Kal mentioned, Harang had a 3.96 FIP. During the period between the relief outing and that period, he had a 6.60 FIP.

redsfandan
02-13-2011, 02:20 AM
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1968/Klolim1013171968.htm

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1988/Kherso0012211988.htm
This was my post that you quoted:

"So, you might as well say that he had 3 starts in 8 days. Now, when is it ever a good idea for a manager to have a pitcher do that?"

So, let me get this straight. You've found all of ONE instance out of how many years where the team/pitcher were able to get away with it and that makes it a good idea??

If you're trying to sell me on it being a good idea, one pitcher out of the last 40+ years isn't going to cut it.

westofyou
02-13-2011, 02:43 AM
This was my post that you quoted:

"So, you might as well say that he had 3 starts in 8 days. Now, when is it ever a good idea for a manager to have a pitcher do that?"

So, let me get this straight. You've found all of ONE instance out of how many years where the team/pitcher were able to get away with it and that makes it a good idea??

If you're trying to sell me on it being a good idea, one pitcher out of the last 40+ years isn't going to cut it.

You asked a question, I just answered it.

I'm not interested in selling anything.

And actually it was 2 instances, that I knew off the top of my head. If I was interested in the question beyond that I'd have to spend more time on it than I care to.

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 05:19 AM
You asked a question, I just answered it.

I'm not interested in selling anything.

And actually it was 2 instances, that I knew off the top of my head. If I was interested in the question beyond that I'd have to spend more time on it than I care to.

Schilling and RJ did a hell of a lot more over 9 days in the 2001 WS as well. Harang threw 13+ innings, which isn't exactly equivalent to 3 starts. Unit threw 17+ and Schill actually started 3 games and went 21+.

redsfandan
02-13-2011, 07:10 AM
You asked a question, I just answered it.

I'm not interested in selling anything.

And actually it was 2 instances, that I knew off the top of my head. If I was interested in the question beyond that I'd have to spend more time on it than I care to.

Yes, I did ask a question. But, that wasn't much of an answer that you gave. Unless I'm to understand your answer to mean that you think that it's a good idea if the team is in the playoffs at the time. Since, the 2008 Reds weren't playing in the playoffs in May '08 maybe you meant to say that it wasn't a good idea.

I asked when is it ever a good idea to let a pitcher have 3 starts in 8 days. Of the 4 pitchers that you and edabbs44 threw out 3 of them were pitching over 9 days. So, they don't even meet the parameters of the question. And all 4 of the pitchers were in the playoffs at the time. Before the May 25th, 2008 game the Reds were 23-27 and 6 1/2 games back.

I can understand using a starting pitcher for 1-2 innings in relief if necessary. But 4 innings always seemed excessive to me. And then his next start wasn't moved back. Harang was one of the more expensive Reds at the time. When it comes to a big investment common sense should prevail. It didn't.

membengal
02-13-2011, 08:39 AM
Schilling and RJ did a hell of a lot more over 9 days in the 2001 WS as well. Harang threw 13+ innings, which isn't exactly equivalent to 3 starts. Unit threw 17+ and Schill actually started 3 games and went 21+.

Because the World Series and eight days in May are equivalent...what with the same stakes and the looming four month off-season and what not...oh wait.

C'mon, let's be real.

It was a bad idea at the time, it is a bad idea now in hindsight, it was a bad idea that stands the test of time. The initial sin of the relief outing, and the even worse sin of the follow-up start. It was a deadly combination of bad in-game management from Dusty and an organizational mess-up of the first order in allowing Harang to take his next start. It represented a needless risk with a valuable asset, and whether anyone who STILL defends the stupidity will ever admit that or not, the arc of Harang's career following that sequence of events represented one of the worst case scenarios outcomes.

This was all said as it happened by a lot of really solid posters on here, and their initial analysis stands. No need to rehash anything, just pull those old threads up. That said, other than this regrettable sequence, and perhaps usage of Cordero at the back end on occasion (sometimes he could use a rest and maybe give Massett the ball on occasion in the 9th), I have not had problems generally with how Dusty has handled the staff since being here. In fact, I once started a thread ( I think in 2008) extolling his changed approach to starting pitcher usage as compared to his Chicago days. And the Reds as an organization have done a nice job since in managing pitch counts, innings, and risk, especially for the younger starters. It's just that the sequence of decisions that put Harang into that situation over that eight days stands out as a stark contrast to how they have otherwise handled things with their pitching assets.

Harang's thoughts on the matter do kinda count, by the way. Whether people who still defend the move want them to or not.

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Because the World Series and eight days in May are equivalent...what with the same stakes and the looming four month off-season and what not...oh wait.

C'mon, let's be real.

It was a bad idea at the time, it is a bad idea now in hindsight, it was a bad idea that stands the test of time. The initial sin of the relief outing, and the even worse sin of the follow-up start. It was a deadly combination of bad in-game management from Dusty and an organizational mess-up of the first order in allowing Harang to take his next start. It represented a needless risk with a valuable asset, and whether anyone who STILL defends the stupidity will ever admit that or not, the arc of Harang's career following that sequence of events represented one of the worst case scenarios outcomes.

This was all said as it happened by a lot of really solid posters on here, and their initial analysis stands. No need to rehash anything, just pull those old threads up. That said, other than this regrettable sequence, and perhaps usage of Cordero at the back end on occasion (sometimes he could use a rest and maybe give Massett the ball on occasion in the 9th), I have not had problems generally with how Dusty has handled the staff since being here. In fact, I once started a thread ( I think in 2008) extolling his changed approach to starting pitcher usage as compared to his Chicago days. And the Reds as an organization have done a nice job since in managing pitch counts, innings, and risk, especially for the younger starters. It's just that the sequence of decisions that put Harang into that situation over that eight days stands out as a stark contrast to how they have otherwise handled things with their pitching assets.

Harang's thoughts on the matter do kinda count, by the way. Whether people who still defend the move want them to or not.

So WS games won't have the same effect on a pitcher as regular season games?

I'm not sure that the move was without risk. In a perfect world, it never would have happened. But I think it is kind of a leap to link the two as pure cause and effect.

And regarding the posts of "other solid posters", there was plenty of noise being made regarding the "abuse" of Harang before Dusty was even a though by anyone on here. Were those wrong now, in light of what we now know? In fact, I'm pretty sure that Arroyo was another one who was being abused without regard for the future. Something about another SD series where Arroyo was shot after throwing a bunch of pitches. Had a bad stretch after that game. Lots of posts then. I also remember all sorts of posts regarding their Pitcher Abuse Points and another classic that spoke about how Harang and Arroyo were being ridden and how other teams were more cautious about their horses, like Johan, Peavy and Webb. Ironic now.

Bottom line is that pitching is fickle. I'm not so sure that anyone has the magic recipe for the health of pitching.

jojo
02-13-2011, 10:27 AM
Aaron Harang had 6 starts that September. He averaged 6.8 IP per start. He had an ERA of 3.07 that month. His last 2 starts that August he went a total of 13 IP giving up 3 runs. A very strong finish to the season.

So I do not for one second believe his struggles lately are due to an irreversible problem stemming from that game.

His FIPS for June, August and September were 4.77, 7.95 and 4.62. But for context when considering his finish, it's also important to realize that Harang only pitched 4 innings between 6/30 and 8/4 of that year...

There was no indication of trouble before the relief stint and the wheels fell off after his throw days etc where screwed with... He was basically shut down and basically had an alright final month.

I'm not arguing cause and effect but if Harang said his arm felt dead after that, then he probably ought to have his words accepted at face value.

membengal
02-13-2011, 10:33 AM
So WS games won't have the same effect on a pitcher as regular season games?

I'm not sure that the move was without risk. In a perfect world, it never would have happened. But I think it is kind of a leap to link the two as pure cause and effect.

And regarding the posts of "other solid posters", there was plenty of noise being made regarding the "abuse" of Harang before Dusty was even a though by anyone on here. Were those wrong now, in light of what we now know? In fact, I'm pretty sure that Arroyo was another one who was being abused without regard for the future. Something about another SD series where Arroyo was shot after throwing a bunch of pitches. Had a bad stretch after that game. Lots of posts then. I also remember all sorts of posts regarding their Pitcher Abuse Points and another classic that spoke about how Harang and Arroyo were being ridden and how other teams were more cautious about their horses, like Johan, Peavy and Webb. Ironic now.

Bottom line is that pitching is fickle. I'm not so sure that anyone has the magic recipe for the health of pitching.

You conveniently skipped over the part where I praised Dusty for his general handling of the pitching in his Cincy stay. Typical for you though, to ignore that which doesn't fit your agenda and your continuing refusal to admit the Reds ever might make a mistake at any point. Like your pushing of the unfounded and totally unsupported theory last year that Paul O'Neill began juicing after leaving the Reds as being the explanation for his improvement in NY, as opposed to the copious facts that were cited (and linked) that Lou messed O'Neill up in terms of his approach and who O'Neill needed to be as a hitter.

As for your Arroyo non sequiter, at no point did he ever have an eight day sequence like Harang went through there. I am no pitcher abuse point zealot, and am less concerned about usage pattern with a thrower like Arroyo than I am with other pitchers. In any event, it is an apples to kumquats irrelevant comparison and a red herring to conflate the discussion of the Harang situation in those eight days to high pitch count outings involving, say, Arroyo. Simply irrelevant.

And, yes, the World Series is different. Different "once in a lifetime" generally stakes and, of course, the FOUR MONTHS OF OFF DAYS TO REST up afterwards. Unlike, say, May.

But, hey, obstinate is as obstinate does on this topic.

jojo
02-13-2011, 10:36 AM
Bottom line is that pitching is fickle. I'm not so sure that anyone has the magic recipe for the health of pitching.

At least not while there are mandatory random tests for it....

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 11:14 AM
You conveniently skipped over the part where I praised Dusty for his general handling of the pitching in his Cincy stay. Typical for you though, to ignore that which doesn't fit your agenda and your continuing refusal to admit the Reds ever might make a mistake at any point. Like your pushing of the unfounded and totally unsupported theory last year that Paul O'Neill began juicing after leaving the Reds as being the explanation for his improvement in NY, as opposed to the copious facts that were cited (and linked) that Lou messed O'Neill up in terms of his approach and who O'Neill needed to be as a hitter.

As for your Arroyo non sequiter, at no point did he ever have an eight game sequence like Harang went through there. I am no pitcher abuse point zealot, and am less concerned about usage pattern with a thrower like Arroyo than I am with other pitchers. In any event, it is an apples to kumquats irrelevant comparison and a red herring to conflate the discussion of the Harang situation in those eight days to high pitch count outings involving, say, Arroyo. Simply irrelevant.

And, yes, the World Series is different. Different "once in a lifetime" generally stakes and, of course, the FOUR MONTHS OF OFF DAYS TO REST up afterwards. Unlike, say, May.

But, hey, obstinate is as obstinate does on this topic.

Wait...I never think the Reds make a mistake? Ever? I thought I was Mr. Negative until Walt was hired? I'm confused.

WS isn't different in temrs of injury and abuse. Over pitching in October is the same (if not worse) than in the spring in SD.

I can't specifically comment on what your pattern was with Harang and Arroyo over time. But much of those screaming about them from 2006-present was as follows:

Harang and Arroyo are being abused!
Arroyo threw 130 pitches in SD! He's doomed!
Look, Arroyo is pitching like crap. We told you!
Oh wait, Arroyo is pitching better. OK.
Harang threw in relief in SD! He's doomed!
Arroyo is pitching like crap again! He's doomed!
Harang is DL'ed. Baker's an idiot.
Arroyo is pitching better. OK.
Harang is back. He's pitching better. OK.
Harang is getting abused, but his peripherals are better. He'll be fine.
Harang is pitching like crap! We were right! Either because of the relief game or because of the PAPs!
Oh, we said the same thing about Arroyo? His arm is different. It takes overuse better. We knew that.

That's what it seemed like to me at least.

And regarding Paulie O, everyone has an opinion. That is mine. There is more legitimate evidence of PED abuse on that team than in anything regarding relief outings runing careers. I think it is fair to have a disucssion on the topic at hand , since that is what the thread is about. Bringing that up like I was saying the world is flat, or something like that, makes zero sense.

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 11:17 AM
At least not while there are mandatory random tests for it....

So relevant.

kaldaniels
02-13-2011, 12:15 PM
His FIPS for June, August and September were 4.77, 7.95 and 4.62. But for context when considering his finish, it's also important to realize that Harang only pitched 4 innings between 6/30 and 8/4 of that year...

There was no indication of trouble before the relief stint and the wheels fell off after his throw days etc where screwed with... He was basically shut down and basically had an alright final month.

I'm not arguing cause and effect but if Harang said his arm felt dead after that, then he probably ought to have his words accepted at face value.

If you back it up a bit and look at his last 8 starts of the year, his finish looks better than you suggest. I believe his FIP was 3.96 as mentioned earlier over those last 8 starts. I think the league average that year was 4.30 or so. So he was above average for his last 8 starts.

Look, there is no way to positively know the answer to this endless riddle, but I see a guy who threw too much in an 8 day stretch, which rendered him ineffective for a few months. Not the rest of his career.

mth123
02-13-2011, 12:17 PM
I think what is being missed by some on here is that overuse is really an issue of being able to bounce back and go back out there with the same arm strength and to avoid altering motion/mechanics to compensate. When a guy squeezes three starts into a 7 game World Series and has an entire off season to bounce back, its a lot different than being overused during a sequence of games in the middle of the season and then having to go out and take regular turns for several months with reduced arm strength until a break comes. The injury risk comes from altering the motion after the overuse saps the strength from the arm and not from the actual games where the overuse happened.

Harang was talking last spring about his arm hurting and it how it hasn't felt the same. I don't think he's revising history. As far as the comments about it not showing up until 2010, its just not true. He went from being a 230+ inning horse in 2006 and 2007 to throwing 184, 162 and 111 in the seasons since. I'd say it showed up in 2008 and has plagued him since. IMO, the guy is toast and no one can convince me that the start after the relief outing isn't the primary culprit.

mbgrayson
02-13-2011, 03:20 PM
Harang was not going to criticize Dusty while Aaron was still with the Reds. Not surprising. Even now, he says nothing blaming Dusty, but does factually tie the real start of his arm problems to the relief outing.

In this thread, many people say they don't understand how this one stretch of being overworked could wreck his last two and half seasons. But read the article (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/feb/11/padres-harang-homing-return-dominance/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter).


“I feel like I’ve never been able to get back to the consistent, repetitive mechanics that I had,” he said. “The last couple of years have been, ‘Try this, try that. Move your arm angle out a little.’

Today I went back and read several of the old threads (like this one (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71171)...) on the Harang relief outing. Several RZ members point out that his mechanics were off. Harang did complain later in 2008 about foream pain, and had an MRI. He hasn't had the command since then that he had before. His year by year WHIP is as follows:

Aaron Harang WHIP:
2005: 1.266
2006: 1.272
2007: 1.144
2008: 1.383
2009: 1.411
2010: 1.585

These stats show a clear drop in command starting in 2008.

I believe that Harang is telling the truth about the relief outing when he says “What it did, is fatigue me beyond the point of recovery. I started to change my arm angle to compensate for the fatigue and that’s when my forearm started to bother me.”

I would absolutely love to see him rebound in San Diego.

Eric_the_Red
02-13-2011, 03:31 PM
Since Harang brings up his mechanics, when does the focus of blame turn to the pitching coach instead of Dusty? If it is a mechanics issue, a good pitching coach will pick up on that quick and work to fix it. That's kind of their job.

mth123
02-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Since Harang brings up his mechanics, when does the focus of blame turn to the pitching coach instead of Dusty? If it is a mechanics issue, a good pitching coach will pick up on that quick and work to fix it. That's kind of their job.

Maybe the Reds quietly recognized this as a problem. Pole was let go after the 2009 season right?

jojo
02-13-2011, 03:47 PM
Concerning mechanics pitching coaches are kind of like civil war era doctors.

TheNext44
02-13-2011, 04:31 PM
There was no indication of trouble before the relief stint and the wheels fell off after his throw days etc where screwed with... He was basically shut down and basically had an alright final month.

This is not exactly true.

While Harang's ERA and FIP was only up a bit from the beginning of 2008 to the relief stint, his HR/9 was up from 1 to 1.2, his line drive rate was up from 20% to 25% and his GB/FB was down substantially from 1.01 to .56.

Harang was getting hit harder in 2008 before the relief stint than his previous seasons with the Reds. Considering his age, his size, and mechanics, I would guess that this incident was just one reason for his decline.

jojo
02-13-2011, 05:54 PM
This is not exactly true.

While Harang's ERA and FIP was only up a bit from the beginning of 2008 to the relief stint, his HR/9 was up from 1 to 1.2, his line drive rate was up from 20% to 25% and his GB/FB was down substantially from 1.01 to .56.

Harang was getting hit harder in 2008 before the relief stint than his previous seasons with the Reds. Considering his age, his size, and mechanics, I would guess that this incident was just one reason for his decline.

Here's his first 11 starts through 5/22 of 2008 (his relief appearance was on 5/25) compared to his career numbers:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
2008 preSD 74 3.86 0.83 1.21 22 43 11 7.64 2.18
career 1452 4.14 0.93 1.22 21 41 11 7.47 2.52

traderumor
02-13-2011, 06:10 PM
Since Harang brings up his mechanics, when does the focus of blame turn to the pitching coach instead of Dusty? If it is a mechanics issue, a good pitching coach will pick up on that quick and work to fix it. That's kind of their job.
It's kinda the pitcher's job to be able to perform the necessary mechanics. Your idea assumes he could perform the mechanics as instructed, so he must not have been instructed. Maybe he was instructed but could not perform them. That leads to "why is that?" Is it Dusty's fault? Is it his size? Is it his age? Is it an injury? Was he just rode hard and little by little was falling apart? Notice there are more options than "its Dusty's fault" or "its the negligence of the pitching coach."

traderumor
02-13-2011, 06:13 PM
Concerning mechanics pitching coaches are kind of like civil war era doctors.They amputate arms? What is the basis for this opinion?

traderumor
02-13-2011, 06:16 PM
Regarding Harang's comments, I am very surprised that he made these thoughts public. There is truth telling for the greater good and there are bitter comments that burn bridges. Not sure what to think.

TheNext44
02-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Here's his first 11 starts through 5/22 of 2008 (his relief appearance was on 5/25) compared to his career numbers:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
2008 preSD 74 3.86 0.83 1.21 22 43 11 7.64 2.18
career 1452 4.14 0.93 1.22 21 41 11 7.47 2.52


His career numbers include his first three seasons when he wasn't very good. My numbers were from his previous three seasons when he was a TOR pitcher.

Now that might have been because his career numbers reflected his true talent, more than 2005-08, but I think it's clear that the beginning of 2008 showed a drop in production from his previous three years, which was an indication of trouble to come, even if it was just reverting to his career numbers.

jojo
02-13-2011, 06:28 PM
They amputate arms? What is the basis for this opinion?

It's voodoo science.

Pitching coaches are very useful for managing the staff, repertoire and pitch sequencing, coaching pitchability, game planning etc.

They're mad scientists when they tinker with mechanics...... kinda like throwing a bunch of fruit into a blender and seeing how the smoothie tastes.

traderumor
02-13-2011, 06:30 PM
It's voodoo science.

Pitching coaches are very useful for managing the staff, repertoire and pitch sequencing, coaching pitchability, game planning etc.

They're mad scientists when they tinker with mechanics...... kinda like throwing a bunch of fruit into a blender and seeing how the smoothie tastes.Broad sweeping generalization. Begging the question since pitching mechanics are not one size fits all.

jojo
02-13-2011, 06:49 PM
His career numbers include his first three seasons when he wasn't very good. My numbers were from his previous three seasons when he was a TOR pitcher.

Now that might have been because his career numbers reflected his true talent, more than 2005-08, but I think it's clear that the beginning of 2008 showed a drop in production from his previous three years, which was an indication of trouble to come, even if it was just reverting to his career numbers.

Here's his first 11 starts through 5/22 of 2008 (his relief appearance was on 5/25) compared to his numbers from '05 thru '07:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
2008 preSD 74 3.86 0.83 1.21 22 43 11 7.64 2.18
05-'07 677 3.68 0.88 1.04 20 45 10 7.94 2.12


I'm not seeing any warning signs from his first 11 starts in 2008. He's surprisingly consistent actually given the small sample his pre-SD relief appearance starts represents. While his HR/9 in '08 looks like a dramatic jump in those 11 starts, it basically means he gave up one more HR than would be expected if using his '05-'07 data to predict his HR total in those 74 innings.

His pre-SD numbers just don't foreshadow his post-SD performance.

jojo
02-13-2011, 06:54 PM
Broad sweeping generalization. Begging the question since pitching mechanics are not one size fits all.

On the contrary, the bolded part of the above quote is precisely why messing with pitching mechanics is voodoo science.

There's some general concepts everyone mostly agrees upon and then there's the other 50% where coaches are as different as fingerprints. Then of course, it all derives from the eyes and we all know that it's unlikely that two different coaches are going to see the same thing.

My position doesn't beg the question-its derived from reality.

traderumor
02-13-2011, 07:01 PM
On the contrary, the bolded part of the above quote is precisely why messing with pitching mechanics is voodoo science.

There's some general concepts everyone mostly agrees upon and then there's the other 50% where coaches are as different as fingerprints. Then of course, it all derives from the eyes and we all know that it's unlikely that two different coaches are going to see the same thing.

My position doesn't beg the question-its derived from reality.I would call it an art. Without a real ability to quantify an opinion, it is hard to support that no one really has a method to their madness, but that they are just throwing stuff together and if it works laying claim to being a medicine man.

TheNext44
02-13-2011, 07:04 PM
Here's his first 11 starts through 5/22 of 2008 (his relief appearance was on 5/25) compared to his numbers from '05 thru '07:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
2008 preSD 74 3.86 0.83 1.21 22 43 11 7.64 2.18
05-'07 677 3.68 0.88 1.04 20 45 10 7.94 2.12


I'm not seeing any warning signs from his first 11 starts in 2008. He's surprisingly consistent actually given the small sample his pre-SD relief appearance starts represents. While his HR/9 in '08 looks like a dramatic jump in those 11 starts, it basically means he gave up one more HR than would be expected if using his '05-'07 data to predict his HR total in those 74 innings.

His pre-SD numbers just don't foreshadow his post-SD performance.

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but based on the game logs on baseball-reference.com, his LD rate of his first 11 starts in 2008 is 25% and his GB/FB rate is a shocking .56. Also, according to Fangraphs, his GB/FB was .98 from 2005-2007.

He clearly was getting hit harder at the beginning of 2008, and I know that before the relief putting, I was getting worried when I watched him pitch.

I agree his pre-SD numbers don't foreshadow his post-SD numbers, but they do foreshadow some decline in his production. Harang from the start of 2008 was not the same Harang as from 2005-07, even if it wasn't as bad as the post-SD Harang.

I think it's clear that the whole incident had some effect on Harang, but I also think he was already on the decline.

jojo
02-13-2011, 07:20 PM
I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but based on the game logs on baseball-reference.com, his LD rate of his first 11 starts in 2008 is 25% and his GB/FB rate is a shocking .56. Also, according to Fangraphs, his GB/FB was .98 from 2005-2007.

He clearly was getting hit harder at the beginning of 2008, and I know that before the relief putting, I was getting worried when I watched him pitch.

I agree his pre-SD numbers don't foreshadow his post-SD numbers, but they do foreshadow some decline in his production. Harang from the start of 2008 was not the same Harang as from 2005-07, even if it wasn't as bad as the post-SD Harang.

I think it's clear that the whole incident had some effect on Harang, but I also think he was already on the decline.

The numbers are from fan graphs using game logs for 2008 and career stats tables to calculate '05-07.

jojo
02-13-2011, 07:22 PM
I would call it an art. Without a real ability to quantify an opinion, it is hard to support that no one really has a method to their madness, but that they are just throwing stuff together and if it works laying claim to being a medicine man.

Everyone should cringe when they hear that coaches are tinkering with a pitcher's mechanics.

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 08:15 PM
The numbers are from fan graphs using game logs for 2008 and career stats tables to calculate '05-07.

Can you run those same numbers for his first 11 or so starts in 2009?

jojo
02-13-2011, 08:26 PM
Can you run those same numbers for his first 11 or so starts in 2009?

His '09 generally was a solid campaign. Here are his numbers from the first 11 starts of '09:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
09 April-May 68 3.89 0.82 1.32 23 42 11 8.05 1.98

edabbs44
02-13-2011, 09:05 PM
His '09 generally was a solid campaign. Here are his numbers from the first 11 starts of '09:



IP FIP gb/fb HR/9 ld% FB% HR/FB K/9 BB/9
09 April-May 68 3.89 0.82 1.32 23 42 11 8.05 1.98


Do you think that SD messed with his career or just the rest of 2008?

jojo
02-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Do you think that SD messed with his career or just the rest of 2008?

I think '08 was definitely screwed up by SD.

I also think Harang's delivery has been tweaked since '08 and the end product contributed to 2010.

But it's a hard sell that May 25th directly caused his 2010 season IMHO. I dunno if SD can "fix" him. The Reds defense wasn't much help. He wasn't hit unlucky.

REDREAD
02-14-2011, 02:48 PM
If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.

I agree completely.

It's human nature for Harang to look for a reason for why he became ineffective.. But please, give me a break.. He's had two years to recover from that extra 4 inning stint. IIRC, he actually pitched pretty good for the rest of the year (as a whole) after that incident.

IMO, it's quite petty for Harang to blame Dusty for this, 2 years later.
Did Harang ask to come out of that game, if he was so fatigued? IIRC, he volunteered to come in. It seemed like he had no problem playing the role of hero that day.

mbgrayson
02-14-2011, 03:42 PM
I agree completely.

It's human nature for Harang to look for a reason for why he became ineffective.. But please, give me a break.. He's had two years to recover from that extra 4 inning stint. IIRC, he actually pitched pretty good for the rest of the year (as a whole) after that incident.

IMO, it's quite petty for Harang to blame Dusty for this, 2 years later.
Did Harang ask to come out of that game, if he was so fatigued? IIRC, he volunteered to come in. It seemed like he had no problem playing the role of hero that day.

1. Did you read the article linked in the first post? Harang not only doesn't blame Dusty, he doesn't blame anyone. He merely states that his arm was fatgued, and that he altered his motion to try to compensate, and got so messed up he hasn't gotten back to where he was. I appreciate Aaron finally admitting this.

2. His stats were NOT "pretty good" for the rest of 2008. His ERA and WHIP ballooned way up after the relief appearance, while his K rate dropped. They have not returned to the pre-relief level ever since.

3. The prevailing tradition is that pitchers do not complain about being tired. They just go out and work. By the time pitchers complain, they are hurt and it is too late to make a correction. Coaches, managers, and the front office all know this. It is their job to protect pitchers from over use. Harang did tell people that year in June that his forearm was hurting, and he had an MRI, which was negative. (To the degree that an MRI shows anything...).

4. He may have volunteered to pitch, but he got left in for 4 innings that night in SD, and then brought back three days later to start.


I think we have killed this horse four or five times over now......

REDREAD
02-14-2011, 08:30 PM
3. The prevailing tradition is that pitchers do not complain about being tired. They just go out and work. By the time pitchers complain, they are hurt and it is too late to make a correction. Coaches, managers, and the front office all know this. It is their job to protect pitchers from over use. Harang did tell people that year in June that his forearm was hurting, and he had an MRI, which was negative. (To the degree that an MRI shows anything...).

4. He may have volunteered to pitch, but he got left in for 4 innings that night in SD, and then brought back three days later to start.

.....

And I'm sure he was asked if he was ok to make that start 3 days later.
But I guess according to point 3, it's the coach's job to be a mind reader becaues the pitcher can't be expected to tell the truth about how they feel?
No offense, but that's kind of silly to say that a manager can't rely on what the pitcher says about his own body.

Every pitcher is different.. how is a manager supposed to know if he's pushing them too hard if he can't rely on the pitcher's own feedback?
Quality pitching is so thin and has a short shelf life that it does not make economic sense to be ultra conservative.

Let me put it this way.. Harang finished 2008 much stronger than he pitched in 2009 or 2010.. Whatever he did to screw up his mechanics, it seemed to get worse. Ultimately it's Aaron Harang's job to pitch effectively and give the coaches feedback to use him properly.

I think Aaron's body has just naturally broken down. He was never a heralded prospect, but he found a way to overachieve for a few years. Not sure if that was roided aided or what, but he certainly crashed down to earth. I wish him the best, but even without that extra inning game, he would've still crashed to earth.

Team Clark
02-14-2011, 08:44 PM
I'm sure Aaron has to stick with the best set of excuses that helped land him a new job. Can't go back on that now. Blaming one relief appearance of 4 IP is absurd.

jojo
02-14-2011, 09:10 PM
I'm sure Aaron has to stick with the best set of excuses that helped land him a new job. Can't go back on that now. Blaming one relief appearance of 4 IP is absurd.

Harang didn't blame his 2010 season on one relief appearance.

bucksfan2
02-15-2011, 09:40 AM
Harang didn't blame his 2010 season on one relief appearance.

It kind of seems that way. And it also seems as if a lot of RZ posters feel that was the beginning of the end for Harang.

jojo
02-15-2011, 09:55 AM
It kind of seems that way. And it also seems as if a lot of RZ posters feel that was the beginning of the end for Harang.

Read his comments again. Clearly he thinks the relief stint precipitated things but he blames what happened afterward-not the relief stint.

The devil is in the details and some claiming sour grapes seem to be glossing over what he actually said IMHO.

edabbs44
02-15-2011, 09:55 AM
It kind of seems that way. And it also seems as if a lot of RZ posters feel that was the beginning of the end for Harang.

He didn't outright say it, but I think we all know what he was getting at.