The latest on Jose Arredondo

[Blitz Dorsey]

All reports I've read are that he is fully healed and is already throwing mid-90s, topping out at 96 MPH. He had a lights-out rookie year with the Angels in 2008 as almost everyone on here knows, then got hurt midway through the '09 season and was out for the last 1.5 years. The Reds signed him to a two-year deal last offseason knowing he wouldn't be ready until 2011. Basically they paid him for rehabbing for a year with the hopes they would cash in this season.

I can't overstate how huge it would be for the Reds' bullpen to have Arredondo pitch even close to as well as he did three seasons ago. And in my estimation, if he's healthy, there is no reason to think he won't pitch well. If he was that good as a rookie, he should be even better three years later and with a healthy arm. I know it's not that simple, but I'm very excited about the potential of this young man. The Reds already have the makings of a solid bullpen with the five locks (IMO) to make the team in Cordero, Chapman, Masset, Bray and Ondrusek. But Arredondo is the type of player that could push the bullpen over the top, turning it from a good one to a great one.

[Phhhl]

It's probably not right to be so excited about a reliever. But, if Arredondo is as good as his last healthy season with Angels suggest he could be, it opens up so many possibilities. Don't forget that Nick Masset is not a bad late inning reliever either. Paired with Chapman, Masset and Cordero, a healthy and productive Arredondo makes it one NASTY bullpen. Needless to say, the evolution of Arredondo also gives the club tremendous flexibility with what to do with the Cuban Missile.

The thing I am most excited about is the win total Arredondo compiled in 2008. For relievers, win totals are usually just a crap shoot. But, his peripherals showed that he was absolutely dominant that season in every respect. Without breaking it down, it seems to me that the ten wins was a byproduct of a guy coming into tight ballgames and pitching well rather than blowing leads and collecting upon dumb luck. Because of guys like this, I think we could be talking about a team that... if you don't get a lead on them before the sixth inning you are in deep trouble. The 1990 Reds won world series on something like that.

This doesn't even touch on how good Ondrusek and Bray can be in their roles at times. It doesn't even include guys like Matt Maloney and Sam Lecure, pitchers who would have earned a major league paycheck at random points over the last 20 years simply due to the derth of pitching talent across the organization. It is almost overwhelming how good this pitching staff as a whole can be. I don't fret using Chapman out of the bullpen at all at this point, because there is no way you can lose so long as he is logging his innings on the major league level.

This team is so loaded. It is somewhat annoying that they didn't go out and get a beast to man left field this winter. It would appear to have been so easy, with so much depth at almost every other important role to work from. The Milwaukee Brewers may have been discouraged from even looking at Marcum and Greinke if the Reds had fortified left with a true masher like Adam Dunn, for instance. Talent is so good that it might not matter, but failure will be painful. Make no mistake, the Reds are banking on winning the division again in 2011 and raising the value of the franchise. Bob Castellini wants to perform a facelift on this proud organization, and I am all in as a fan with that agenda. Anythhing less than a dvision title is an abject failure for this team.

Travis Wood and Arredondo are two key pitchers in 2011. Not only for Reds fans, but for anyone who cares to follow how the 2011 season. The sudden imprtance of the Cincinnati Reds make them big stories in the cactus league.

[Scrap Irony]

Travis Wood and Arredondo are two key pitchers in 2011. Not only for Reds fans, but for anyone who cares to follow how the 2011 season. The sudden imprtance of the Cincinnati Reds make them big stories in the cactus league.

Agreed on both. If Wood wasn't a mirage and Arredondo is healthy, this team is as least as good as last season's, probably much better.

The Red pen could legitimately have six monster arms and Cordero as closer. And that actually makes some kind of sense, assuming he's not asked to enter a game with runners on base. Keeping another team from scoring before you record three outs in one inning isn't all that difficult to do, statistically.

When was the last time a team's worst pitcher was its closer? Has that ever worked?

[MartyFan]

All reports I've read are that he is fully healed and is already throwing mid-90s, topping out at 96 MPH. He had a lights-out rookie year with the Angels in 2008 as almost everyone on here knows, then got hurt midway through the '09 season and was out for the last 1.5 years. The Reds signed him to a two-year deal last offseason knowing he wouldn't be ready until 2011. Basically they paid him for rehabbing for a year with the hopes they would cash in this season.

I can't overstate how huge it would be for the Reds' bullpen to have Arredondo pitch even close to as well as he did three seasons ago. And in my estimation, if he's healthy, there is no reason to think he won't pitch well. If he was that good as a rookie, he should be even better three years later and with a healthy arm. I know it's not that simple, but I'm very excited about the potential of this young man. The Reds already have the makings of a solid bullpen with the five locks (IMO) to make the team in Cordero, Chapman, Masset, Bray and Ondrusek. But Arredondo is the type of player that could push the bullpen over the top, turning it from a good one to a great one.

I'm with you. I think this signing was masterful on the part of the Reds. Reminds me (on a larger upside scale) of when Special K signed Balfour.

If Arredondo shines this year would you want the team to lock him up for 3 more years?

[corkedbat]

I'm with you. I think this signing was masterful on the part of the Reds. Reminds me (on a larger upside scale) of when Special K signed Balfour.

If Arredondo shines this year would you want the team to lock him up for 3 more years?

Definitely. At worst, he could step in to Masset's role when Nick replaces Coco. I'd definitely like to have him for more than one season. He could turn out to be a huge steal when all is said and done. Not much ventured either if for some reason he doesn't pan out (I believe he will though).

Cordero, Chapman, Masset, Willis, Arredondo, Bray, Ondrusek, Herrera, Burton, Valiquette, Fisher, Smith - that's a solid amount of depth and L-R balance. Combine that with 8 solid starters (Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Wood, Bailey, Leake, Maloney, Lecure) and this staff has to be as deep in quality as I've seen a Reds staff.

[Quatitos]

Agreed on both. If Wood wasn't a mirage and Arredondo is healthy, this team is as least as good as last season's, probably much better.

The Red pen could legitimately have six monster arms and Cordero as closer. And that actually makes some kind of sense, assuming he's not asked to enter a game with runners on base. Keeping another team from scoring before you record three outs in one inning isn't all that difficult to do, statistically.

When was the last time a team's worst pitcher was its closer? Has that ever worked?

It should also be taken into consideration that Cordero will most likely perform better in 2011 than he did in 2010. His 2010 SV% was his worst since 2006, and his ERA in 2010 was his worst since 2000 and his second worst ever. His WHIP and SO/BB were his worst since 2001. Will we see 2004 Cordero? I seriously doubt it, but if we get the Cordero of the last couple years minus 2010, we will definitely be in good shape.

Even if we get 2010 Cordero, if we have 6 other bullpen arms outperform him we will be very well off.

Also, I know that if the Reds choose, they can control Fred Lewis through 2013 through arbitration before he hits free agency. So would the Reds have control of him for up to 4 years since he has only accumulated 2 years of service time so far?

[The Operator]

Also, I know that if the Reds choose, they can control Fred Lewis through 2013 through arbitration before he hits free agency. So would the Reds have control of him for up to 4 years since he has only accumulated 2 years of service time so far?I was thinking the same thing.

Did he not accumulate a year of service time for 2010? Either way though, I think he should still be under Reds control until his 6th year is up.

[camisadelgolf]

If Arredondo makes the team out of spring training and stays up with the big club all year, he will almost definitely qualify for arbitration as a 'super two'.

[medford]

If Arredondo makes the team out of spring training and stays up with the big club all year, he will almost definitely qualify for arbitration as a 'super two'.

Does he have options left? Sounds like a case for "lets keep him in AAA to start the year, in a more controlled environement to help him ease back into full tilt baseball, then bring him back after a month" situation.

At any rate, Cordero, Arrendondo & Masset from the right side, Chapman, Bray & Willis from the left side, plus 1 arm that can be used as a long man. that would leave Logan, Smith, Burton, etc.. down in AAA. That's pretty darn solid depth right there.

One thing this may do, assuming all ifs become true, is allow the front office to move Coco and covering a good portion of his contract for a left fielder by the end of ST. Seems like some guys can't always make the transition from the 8th to the 9th inning. For all his ups & downs, coco always took the ball in the 9th and held up reasonably well compared to some in the past. W/ a cast of characters that deep, for a position (closer) that tends to get overhyped, there's got to be more than 1 w/ the mental makeup to make the move to closer.

[camisadelgolf]

Arredondo is out of options.

[Ghosts of 1990]

I've said all along he's a huge shot in the arm to the Reds and will make a guy like Arthur Rhodes leaving hurt a lot less. I know Rhodes was tough against LHP but Rhodes evolved into more of a critical outs/8th inning guy last season and I think Arredondo will be that guy by mid season this year.

[OnBaseMachine]

I agree - I think Arredondo was an excellent pickup. I remember making a few posts about him about two or three years ago where I was gushing over his stuff and how I wish the Reds would target him in a trade. When healthy, his stuff is filthy - mid 90's fastball, a splitter that drops off the table, and a nice slider too. Even though he's right-handed, he's been tougher on lefties early in his career. LH batters have a .529 OPS in 218 PA against him compared to a .744 OPS in 228 PA vs RH batters. I really think he's going to be a key component in the Reds bullpen not only this season but in the future too.

[OnBaseMachine]

Update from Mark Sheldon:


Reliever Jose Arredondo, who remained in Goodyear, Ariz., and on the DL after camp broke in order to rehab all the way back from 2010 Tommy John surgery, will start a rehab assignment in the Minors next week. Arredondo threw on Friday at the team complex without issue.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110409&content_id=17553008&notebook_id=17553010&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

[Joseph]

Send him to louisville and lets end the Danny Ray Herrera tenure.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Can he throw strikes? Not many in this bullpen can

[VR]

Not sure if he was on the bench....but he did participate in long throwing and BP w/ the Reds this weekend. He was throwing free and easy....took me awhile to figure out who it was.

[OnBaseMachine]

Arredondo made his first rehab appearance today with the Double-A Carolina Mudcats. His line: 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K, 15 pitches/10 strikes.

[cinreds21]

He'll be in Carolina for about a week and Louisville for a week before being activated off the 15-day disabled list.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Arredondo made his first rehab appearance today with the Double-A Carolina Mudcats. His line: 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K, 15 pitches/10 strikes.

Hold on. Let me excuse myself for a moment...

















YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beerme:

[OnBaseMachine]

From Mark Sheldon:


"He bounced back well in Spring Training, but his breaking stuff wasn't what we had seen when he was healthy with Anaheim," Price said. "He was making a lot of mistakes with his breaking ball and split-fingered pitch. Those were the pitches where he was getting hurt in Spring Training.

"We made sure his stuff was a little bit more crisp. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're not somewhat sharp at Double-A or Triple-A, those guys can work you over. He got some kinks in his delivery worked out. If he's back to being able to command his offspeed stuff as he was in 2008, we'd be real pleased."



http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110411&content_id=17652338&notebook_id=17654700&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

[redsmetz]

Send him to louisville and lets end the Danny Ray Herrera tenure.

As was noted after your post, Arredondo is out of options, so he can't go to Louisville other than for rehab. As for Herrara, Arredondo is on the 40 man roster, so there's no need to move anyone off at the present time. I suspect Herrara will probably be moved when that time comes, even if just for the proverbial back of balls.

[OnBaseMachine]

Jose Arredondo struck out all three batters he faced tonight in his second rehab appearance for the Double-A Carolina Mudcats. His numbers so far on rehab: 2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 5 K.

[757690]

Jose Arredondo struck out all three batters he faced tonight in his second rehab appearance for the Double-A Carolina Mudcats. His numbers so far on rehab: 2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 5 K.

Maybe just in time if Chapman need a DL stint.

[OnBaseMachine]

From John Fay:


–Jose Arredondo, also rehabbing with Carolina, will likely be there the full 30 days that are allowed for the pitcher.

“We want to make sure his arm strength is there,” Jocketty said.


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/04/14/updates-on-chapman-phillips-et-al/

[OnBaseMachine]

From Mark Sheldon:


During Spring Training, Arredondo had issues with arm strength and trouble throwing his breaking ball and split-fingered fastball for strikes.

"From the reports I'm getting, all of that stuff is getting a lot better," Price said. "The arm strength is more consistent and the breaking ball and split have been much, much better -- what we expected from him when we got him."



http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110427&content_id=18303790&notebook_id=18303794&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

Arredondo has a 2.35 ERA and 4 BB/11 K in 7.2 innings with Double-A Carolina.

[cinreds21]

He should get four or five appearances for the Bats before being activated. That'll likely include pitching on back to back days.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Send him to louisville and lets end the Danny Ray Herrera tenure.

Totally off-subject, but speaking of DRH I ran into him last year, of all places, at an OSU football game. Took my son to the Ohio U. game and we hit the Schott on the way to the stadium to get him a #2 (Mike Doss…lol) jersey. DRH was strolling around the inside of the Schott, drinking a beer, with a couple girls and another guy. Don’t know how I recognized him, but without even thinking, I blurted out “Hey Danny”, and sure enough he turned around and said “hi”. I think he was surprised someone would recognize him. Nice guy. We talked for a minute and I wished him luck (he had just recently been demoted and I think Louisville’s season was over).

Like I said, he seemed like a really nice guy and he was wearing a big block “O” cap (flat bill of course), so he can’t be all that bad.

As we walked away, I pointed to him and said to my son, “that’s a major league pitcher right there – so anything is possible”. My son, who is 10, couldn’t believe it. He thought he was a kid.


Back to Arrendondo. I’m also very excited about his progress. We made the mistake once before of letting one go (Balfour) and I’m sure they won’t let it happen again with Arrendondo.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Totally off-subject, but speaking of DRH I ran into him last year, of all places, at an OSU football game. Took my son to the Ohio U. game and we hit the Schott on the way to the stadium to get him a #2 (Mike Doss…lol) jersey. DRH was strolling around the inside of the Schott, drinking a beer, with a couple girls and another guy. Don’t know how I recognized him, but without even thinking, I blurted out “Hey Danny”, and sure enough he turned around and said “hi”. I think he was surprised someone would recognize him. Nice guy. We talked for a minute and I wished him luck (he had just recently been demoted and I think Louisville’s season was over).

Like I said, he seemed like a really nice guy and he was wearing a big block “O” cap (flat bill of course), so he can’t be all that bad.

As we walked away, I pointed to him and said to my son, “that’s a major league pitcher right there – so anything is possible”. My son, who is 10, couldn’t believe it. He thought he was a kid.


Back to Arrendondo. I’m also very excited about his progress. We made the mistake once before of letting one go (Balfour) and I’m sure they won’t let it happen again with Arrendondo.

That's a great story! He must have been dating a chick that went to OSU. Can't imagine he would have any Buckeye ties coming from Texas.

Seriously, if that doesn't get the message across to young baseball players that "anything is possible" ... nothing will. Danny-Ray might be listed at 5-7, but he's not a hair taller than 5-5. Might be more like 5-4. When he did the "meet and greet" with Shaq before a game last year during BP I about fell out of my chair laughing.

As for Arredondo, his minor league numbers are VERY encouraging. He needs more time though -- needs to prove he can pitch on back-to-back nights.

[OnBaseMachine]

Arredondo was bumped up to Louisville as he continues his rehab. His line tonight: 2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K, 3 GO/1 FO, 35 pitches/23 strikes.

[bellhead]

Should be ready in two weeks?

[OnBaseMachine]

Should be ready in two weeks?

More than likely. Maybe even a little sooner if he continues dominating like he did tonight.

[Homer Bailey]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/


Right-hander Jose Arredondo’s rehab runs out after tonight. The Reds do not have to activate him, but he can not stay on rehab.

He is out of options. It’s going to be a tough call to get him on the roster, if the Reds are really set on keeping Mike Leake in the long-man role.

I really don't understand the Reds refusal to send Leake to AAA. He has options to use, and Arredondo doesn't. I say send Leake to AAA, and he's the first guy up once an injury happens, or if somone becomes ineffective. Otherwise, what are they going to do with Arredondo? He has to be on the roster, no?

[_Sir_Charles_]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/ (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/)



I really don't understand the Reds refusal to send Leake to AAA. He has options to use, and Arredondo doesn't. I say send Leake to AAA, and he's the first guy up once an injury happens, or if somone becomes ineffective. Otherwise, what are they going to do with Arredondo? He has to be on the roster, no?

Yep. Either Leake or LeCure should go down. Since Leake has the better odds of making it as a starter, it should be him IMO.

[OnBaseMachine]

Arredondo needs to be on the roster. It would make zero sense to cut him loose now after he is finally healthy. He's been highly effective on rehab with a 2.63 ERA and 5 BB/18 K in 13.2 innings, and by all accounts his stuff has been impressive too. Send down either Leake or LeCure and give Arredondo a chance.

[757690]

Yep. Either Leake or LeCure should go down. Since Leake has the better odds of making it as a starter, it should be him IMO.

I want the best pitcher to stay with the Reds, the one who will give the Reds the best production. That clearly is Leake.

I also think that using Leake as a AAA yo-yo could do more damage to his development than keeping hiim as a long man in the majors.

Plus with Leake as the long man, if you need an emergency starter, he's already with the team, ready to go.

[Scrap Irony]

I'd argue LeCure could be the best choice as long man, as he's done it before, had success, and can be pretty much abused with little worry. Leake, OTOH, would be a really valuable piece were he to figure out how to continue to dominate hitters late in games. If he goes to AAA and dominates, he becomes a great trade piece. As a long man in Cincinnati, notsomuch, IMO.

[camisadelgolf]

Leake still has all his options and room for improvement. LeCure's last option might come more in handy in 2012 than in 2011. Would anyone consider Ondrusek? He's not off to a great start in May, and he's been worked very hard, so it could be an opportunity to rest his arm in Louisville until someone else goes down.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, the reason I'd prefer Leake gets sent down is simple. What was his problem last season? Two things. He got gassed and they moved him away from a regular schedule. That tells me that he should be throwing regularly and for extended innings. That's not going to happen as a long man. Especially if our starters are doing a halfway decent job. He'll get put to sleep out in the pen and he's to valuable an arm to be sitting there doing nothing. He needs to build up his stamina. He's got the stuff to get out big league hitters, just not the ability to do it over the long grueling season.

As for Ondrusek, I'd keep him up here....just give the guy a break every once in a while. He's been WAY overworked lately.

[OldXOhio]

Or they delay the decision a few more days by sending Valaika down now.

[HokieRed]

What's Janish's injury status?

[bellhead]

Jose if he pitches to his form of two years ago makes this the best bullpen in the majors. By this when you look at a bullpen you think 7,8,9. Lights out production. With the 90 Reds bullpen that meant Rob Dibble, Norm Charlton, and Randy Myers.. It was a great bullpen, but they couldn't go 3 games in a row, back to back. Yes.

Move forward twenty years. Dusty will have the option of bringing in...

Logan, Nick, Chapman, Jose are all above average 7th and 8th inning pitchers. These are the type of guys who the other teams sees coming in and knows they have a limited chance to score on.

Bray is an left handed specialist who isn't that bad of a relief pitcher if he's needed to pitch and extra inning or two.

Lecure as a long man is excellent by this I mean on half of the teams in mlb he would be starting as a # 5.

So I can't wait on Jose!!!!

[Homer Bailey]

Jose if he pitches to his form of two years ago makes this the best bullpen in the majors. By this when you look at a bullpen you think 7,8,9. Lights out production. With the 90 Reds bullpen that meant Rob Dibble, Norm Charlton, and Randy Myers.. It was a great bullpen, but they couldn't go 3 games in a row, back to back. Yes.

Move forward twenty years. Dusty will have the option of bringing in...

Logan, Nick, Chapman, Jose are all above average 7th and 8th inning pitchers. These are the type of guys who the other teams sees coming in and knows they have a limited chance to score on.

Bray is an left handed specialist who isn't that bad of a relief pitcher if he's needed to pitch and extra inning or two.

Lecure as a long man is excellent by this I mean on half of the teams in mlb he would be starting as a # 5.

So I can't wait on Jose!!!!

I'm excited about Jose as well, but best bullpen in the majors? Let's take away our Rose colored glasses and look objectively:

Cordero: Roller coaster. Pretty good so far, but over the last 2-3 years, he's been questionable.

Masset: Is he just a poor starter? Either way, you never really know what you're going to get.

Chapman: Incredibly wild, and again, a wild card.

Ondrusek: Has been incredible so far this year, but not much a major league track record yet.

Arredondo: Returning from Tommy John, has only had one solid season in the MLB, and it was a season that he considerably outperformed his FIP, if I remember correctly.

I don't think the bullpen is a weakness for the Reds, but c'mon, it's not the best bullpen in the majors.

[edabbs44]

The best, Homer, the best!

- Kenny Bania

[Cedric]

I'm excited about Jose as well, but best bullpen in the majors? Let's take away our Rose colored glasses and look objectively:

Cordero: Roller coaster. Pretty good so far, but over the last 2-3 years, he's been questionable.

Masset: Is he just a poor starter? Either way, you never really know what you're going to get.

Chapman: Incredibly wild, and again, a wild card.

Ondrusek: Has been incredible so far this year, but not much a major league track record yet.

Arredondo: Returning from Tommy John, has only had one solid season in the MLB, and it was a season that he considerably outperformed his FIP, if I remember correctly.

I don't think the bullpen is a weakness for the Reds, but c'mon, it's not the best bullpen in the majors.

Actually you know pretty certainly that Masset is a great reliever. Chapman/Bray are pretty lethal LH relievers. It's not impossible that Arredondo makes this a top 5 bullpen if he is sharp.

[Homer Bailey]

Actually you know pretty certainly that Masset is a great reliever. Chapman/Bray are pretty lethal LH relievers. It's not impossible that Arredondo makes this a top 5 bullpen if he is sharp.

You're right. I was referring to the statement that the Arrendondo from 2 years ago makes this bullpen the best in the majors.

[klw]

I want Jose up for no other reason than it is fun to say "Arredondo"

[Griffey012]

Arredondo has the potential to be much better and important for this club out of the bullpen than does Mike Leake. Not at all trying to say Mike Leake can't be very good and important for this club as a starter. Arredondo in Leake's spot. LeCure is a better option in the pen than Leake at his point as well because he cant jump in a situation without a lot of time to warm up, the jury is still out in Leake's ability to do that.

[CTA513]

Chapman is offering up his 25 man roster spot.

[Slyder]

Chapman is offering up his 25 man roster spot.

I want to see Chapman back at AAA and working as a starter. Could he be trying to overthrow and light up the radar? Send him to AAA and let him work as a starter and get back in a groove.

[757690]

I'm predicting a DL stint for Chapman to make room for Arredondo tomorrow.

[GAC]

I'm predicting a DL stint for Chapman to make room for Arredondo tomorrow.

Can you put a guy on the DL for something that is mental? ;)

His last two appearances have been horrendous, and it's because of BBs. He's pitched 12.2 innings and now given up 16 BBs. Not good. I think he needs to go down, and let the coaching staff at AAA work with him.

[mattfeet]

I'm predicting a DL stint for Chapman to make room for Arredondo tomorrow.

This would not surprise me.

[Sea Ray]

After seeing Chapman I think it's a no brainer who goes if Arredondo is brought up

[Plus Plus]

An interesting Red Reporter piece on Arredondo.

http://www.redreporter.com/2011/5/11/2164713/what-to-do-about-jose-arredondo

[fearofpopvol1]

i don't see the reds sending down Chapman, I think it'll be LeCure.

[cinreds21]

Unless it's something that the author mentioned about an injury we don't know about, I do not see what all the fuss is about. He was amazing when healthy. Sending Leake or LeCure down is really not that big of a deal. It's something they knew was going to happen. I just don't see why all the fuss is necessary.

[Sea Ray]

The way Chapman is throwing right now he's useless to the team. The same cannot be said for Leake and LeCure. Chapman looks like he has Steve Blass disease right now

[OnBaseMachine]

Edinson Volquez to Louisville. Jose Arredondo to Cincinnati and Mike Leake back into the Reds rotation. That would be my move.

[Homer Bailey]

Edinson Volquez to Louisville. Jose Arredondo to Cincinnati and Mike Leake back into the Reds rotation. That would be my move.

Volquez does not have options.

[bucksfan2]

Edinson Volquez to Louisville. Jose Arredondo to Cincinnati and Mike Leake back into the Reds rotation. That would be my move.

DFA Volquez, Leake to the rotation, Arredondo to Cincy.

[OnBaseMachine]

DFA Volquez, Leake to the rotation, Arredondo to Cincy.

DFA him? Um, no.

My bad, I thought I read in ST Volquez had one option remaining. Guess he'll need to go to the bullpen then. DFA'ing him would be foolish.

[OnBaseMachine]

John Fay just tweeted back and says Volquez DOES have an option remaining.

[Homer Bailey]

Jesus Fay. Absolutely unbelievable.

[membengal]

John Fay just tweeted back and says Volquez DOES have an option remaining.


Weird because when on-air with marty in second inning today, Fay said volquez was out of options. I wonder which of fay's personalities is right.

[cinreds21]

Volquez DOES have an option left.

[Will M]

Volquez DOES have an option left.

Here is what I would do:

1. send Volquez to AAA until he can throw strikes.
2. Leake moves back into the rotation.
3. Arrendondo replaces Volquez on the roster.
4. send Chapman to AAA until he can throw strikes. I'd make him a starter there.
5. call up Willis as the 2nd lefty in the pen. Bray is the high leverage lefty & Willis gets a shot as a middle reliever

[bucksfan2]

Here is what I would do:

1. send Volquez to AAA until he can throw strikes.
2. Leake moves back into the rotation.
3. Arrendondo replaces Volquez on the roster.
4. send Chapman to AAA until he can throw strikes. I'd make him a starter there.
5. call up Willis as the 2nd lefty in the pen. Bray is the high leverage lefty & Willis gets a shot as a middle reliever

1. I may not DFA Volquez but I am tempted to do what Texas did to him. It seemed like something clicked with Volquez but I think he needs a reality check. I would send him to A or AA ball and promotions based upon control.

2. Couldn't agree more.

3. Yep

4. If I send Chapman to AAA it is to be a starter. I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. IMO Bray can be more than a lefty specialist and you could move Willis up into Chapman's role.

[cinreds21]

If Volquez is DFA, he will no longer be a Red. He would not clear waivers. No chance. He can be optioned to the minors, however.

[reds44]

Chapman isn't going to be sent down, nor should he be. Give that up.

[klw]

I don't think it is a matter of something needing to click for Volquez but rather he needs to get innings under him in his return from the TJ surgery. It takes time and his was a very fast return.

[camisadelgolf]

I was always under the impression that Volquez had no options left because that's what was reported during spring training following the trade. I know he used options in 2006 & 2007, and I also know he was optioned last year, too, but he probably didn't spend enough time on an optional assignment to use his last one. Therefore, it appears he has an option left.

[Cedric]

There isn't a chance they would DFA Volquez. That's just insane.

[reds44]

You guys have fun with Mike Leake.

[_Sir_Charles_]

John Fay just tweeted back and says Volquez DOES have an option remaining.

That's what I thought too. Back in spring training he listed the players without any options left...Edinson was most definitely NOT on that list. I think he does have 1 left.

[_Sir_Charles_]

You guys have fun with Mike Leake.

Leake needs to be starting and in Louisville. Most of this season you've done a very good job of bashing Mike Leake and praising the genius that is Edinson Volquez. It gets old VERY quickly. This loss was NOT on Leake just so you know. It was totally on Volquez. He's currently leading the major leagues in walks allowed and it's really not that close. 5 more than the guy in second place (Kyle Drabek)...that's so unacceptable that I find it flat out funny that ANYBODY tries to defend it. He needs to be out of the rotation yesterday.

I'm one of Mike's biggest supporters and even I think he should be in AAA and not in the bullpen. He's not suited for the pen. LeCure, however, IS suited for a long man role.

[CTA513]

You guys have fun with Mike Leake.

Hes doing about the same as Volquez right now, well except for about 20 less walks.

[RED VAN HOT]

It should be noted that Willis is not on the 40. Someone would have to be DFA'd to bring him up. Here is what I would do.

Chapman and Leake to AAA to starting.
Arredondo and DRH to Cincy.

That would strengthen the bullpen while keeping the starting rotation intact. Make DRH the situational lefty. I would rather have a 65 MPH pitcher who throws strikes than a 100 MPH adventure that can only be used when the Reds have a double digit lead. If DRH does not cut it, DFA him and bring up Willis.

As painful as it is, I think Volquez needs time to work out his problems. Volquez has done it before. Chapman has not.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the reluctance to send Chapman down. I am beginning to think he must have a clause in his contract that he must be on a ML roster in his second year.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Chapman isn't going to be sent down, nor should he be. Give that up.

Why not? Seriously, explain why not? What has he done to deserve to continue to be up here? If he didn't have the velocity he does and the name recognition...would you be keeping Hererra up here if he put up Chapman's numbers? I think everybody would agree with me when I say that the only thing that will fix Chapman is for him to keep throwing. Work out any minor mechanic glitches but keep throwing. The problem is, do you want him to work out these kinks in games that count? What's the point in that? Right now, he's not helping the club...he's in fact HURTING the club. Regardless of WHO the guy is...it calls for some action.

Sending him down sends the message that they care about winning more than they do about selling tickets. That they care more about Aroldis' future than they do about they eye popping radar gun readings. Sending him down and getting him regular work is the best thing for him....and for the Reds long term. (And this has nothing to do with starting versus relieving...although I prefer starting for him)

[_Sir_Charles_]

It should be noted that Willis is not on the 40. Someone would have to be DFA'd to bring him up. Here is what I would do.

Chapman and Leake to AAA to starting.
Arredondo and DRH to Cincy.

That would strengthen the bullpen while keeping the starting rotation intact. Make DRH the situational lefty. I would rather have a 65 MPH pitcher who throws strikes than a 100 MPH adventure that can only be used when the Reds have a double digit lead. If DRH does not cut it, DFA him and bring up Willis.

As painful as it is, I think Volquez needs time to work out his problems. Volquez has done it before. Chapman has not.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the reluctance to send Chapman down. I am beginning to think he must have a clause in his contract that he must be on a ML roster in his second year.

I'm close to where you are. The difference for me is I also send Volquez to AAA as well. I love watching Danny Ray pitch, but I think he needs to be the guy DFA right now. Sending Chapman, Leake and Volquez to AAA leaves a vacancy in the rotation. I give that to Willis and leave LeCure in the pen. If they insist upon keeping Leake in Cincy, then I put him back in the rotation and leave Willis & Herrera where they are. But Chapman and Volquez simply need to be gone until they can throw strikes....stuff or no stuff. Control is everything.

[Scrap Irony]

This loss was NOT on Leake just so you know.

Sure, it's on Leake. And he deserved it, too.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Sure, it's on Leake. And he deserved it, too.

So one hit is more of a problem than what we saw from Volquez who allowed the 3 early ones?

I'm not saying Leake pitched well or that he didn't technically get the "L". More that Volquez was more responsible for the outcome than Mike was. FAR more.

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Mike was in the game in the first place. Seemed like a perfect time for Cordero.

(and like I've said before, Leake is not suited for the pen IMO)

[Homer Bailey]

Why not? Seriously, explain why not? What has he done to deserve to continue to be up here? If he didn't have the velocity he does and the name recognition...would you be keeping Hererra up here if he put up Chapman's numbers? I think everybody would agree with me when I say that the only thing that will fix Chapman is for him to keep throwing. Work out any minor mechanic glitches but keep throwing. The problem is, do you want him to work out these kinks in games that count? What's the point in that? Right now, he's not helping the club...he's in fact HURTING the club. Regardless of WHO the guy is...it calls for some action.

Sending him down sends the message that they care about winning more than they do about selling tickets. That they care more about Aroldis' future than they do about they eye popping radar gun readings. Sending him down and getting him regular work is the best thing for him....and for the Reds long term. (And this has nothing to do with starting versus relieving...although I prefer starting for him)

Dusty has said he's not going down.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dusty has said he's not going down.

I agree. I don't think he WILL go down. Only that he should.

[Homer Bailey]

I agree. I don't think he WILL go down. Only that he should.

I think that was all 44 was trying to say.

[reds44]

Mike Leake needs to go to AAA. Period. That's all I'm saying.

[edabbs44]

Mike Leake needs to go to AAA. Period. That's all I'm saying.

If you think that Leake has more issues at this point than EV does, then you may be kidding yourself.

[reds44]

If you think that Leake has more issues at this point than EV does, then you may be kidding yourself.
Mike Leake has a big big problem. He doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out.

Volquez's issues are fixable. I think Mike Leake is just bad.

[fisch11]

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Mike was in the game in the first place. Seemed like a perfect time for Cordero.

On the road you have to save your closer in case you get the lead. Mike was the only long man left after LeCure pitched so he was most likely going to pitch more than one inning if the game continued. If you pitch Cordero in the bottom of the 9th and you score in the top of the 10th, then who do you bring in to close the 10th??? That's why you saw the Astros closer, Melancon, in the 9th because there was never going to be a save situation for the Astros.

[reds44]

Why not? Seriously, explain why not? What has he done to deserve to continue to be up here? If he didn't have the velocity he does and the name recognition...would you be keeping Hererra up here if he put up Chapman's numbers? I think everybody would agree with me when I say that the only thing that will fix Chapman is for him to keep throwing. Work out any minor mechanic glitches but keep throwing. The problem is, do you want him to work out these kinks in games that count? What's the point in that? Right now, he's not helping the club...he's in fact HURTING the club. Regardless of WHO the guy is...it calls for some action.

Sending him down sends the message that they care about winning more than they do about selling tickets. That they care more about Aroldis' future than they do about they eye popping radar gun readings. Sending him down and getting him regular work is the best thing for him....and for the Reds long term. (And this has nothing to do with starting versus relieving...although I prefer starting for him)
He's had two bad outings and now he deserves to be sent down? You have to be kidding me.

[edabbs44]

Mike Leake has a big big problem. He doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out.

Volquez's issues are fixable. I think Mike Leake is just bad.

Do you still think this is TJ related or do you think that it goes beyond surgery?

[_Sir_Charles_]

I think that was all 44 was trying to say.

Not quite. He was also saying that he SHOULDN'T go down. That's the part I don't get. What has he done to prove that he shouldn't? If Leake or LeCure or Smith or whoever put up the numbers that Chapman has...we wouldn't be hearing the same responses. Potential is great, but at the majors you have to produce to stay. Potential is for the minors until it becomes a reality.

[reds44]

Do you still think this is TJ related or do you think that it goes beyond surgery?
All along I've said I'm going to wait until he hits 100 post TJ injuries to start to judge him. He's reached that point now. I don't think it's all surgery related. I wish I could say it was. I think it is part of it, but not the entire reason for his struggles.

If somebody wants to send him to AAA, at this point, it's hard to argue. I just don't think going down there is going to do him any good. I'd continue to let him work out his problems up here until he starts hurting the team (and he hasn't yet).

Like I said, he's making himself hard to defense.

If I'm choosing Leake or Volquez, give me Volquez all day everyday.

[reds44]

Not quite. He was also saying that he SHOULDN'T go down. That's the part I don't get. What has he done to prove that he shouldn't? If Leake or LeCure or Smith or whoever put up the numbers that Chapman has...we wouldn't be hearing the same responses. Potential is great, but at the majors you have to produce to stay. Potential is for the minors until it becomes a reality.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/30442/aroldis-chapman

He's had three bad outings! All in wins keep in mind. Before that he hadn't allowed an earned run this year. He's walked 8 guys his last 3 outings, before that he walked 8 guys all year.

For the love of God, be patient.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Mike Leake has a big big problem. He doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out.

Volquez's issues are fixable. I think Mike Leake is just bad.

Here's the crux of the argument. Leake HAS gotten major league hitters out. Repeatedly. Stuff or not, he's done it and has shown he can repeat it. That being said, he's not quite there yet and I agree he should be in AAA.

If Volquez's issues are fixable...why haven't they been? Why have we seen absolutely no change since the start of the season? At the end of the day, results matter. But so does the way in which you reach those results. Giving an opponent 3 runs in the first may end up as the same result as giving up 3 runs in the 6th, but the path to each result has drastically changed the approach and results of OTHER players. If 2 pitchers allow 10 baserunners in a game, but one pitcher goes 5 innings and the other goes 7 innings...which one hurts the club more? Which one is putting a heavier workload on the bullpen? Which one is causing the hitters to press due to being in an early hole right out of the gate?

I don't think anybody thinks Edinson lacks the stuff to be successful, but sending him out there time and time again and expecting different results when he's not changing anything is insanity. Sending him to AAA is not giving up on him, it's not going to damage his fragile psyche and it's not going to give him an attitude. It is, however, going to help the Reds. And that's the bottom line, isn't it?

[reds44]

He hasn't got them out repeatedly. He got them out for two months and has been awful since.

[Plus Plus]

So one hit is more of a problem than what we saw from Volquez who allowed the 3 early ones?

I'm not saying Leake pitched well or that he didn't technically get the "L". More that Volquez was more responsible for the outcome than Mike was. FAR more.

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Mike was in the game in the first place. Seemed like a perfect time for Cordero.

(and like I've said before, Leake is not suited for the pen IMO)

The options to come in were Leake, Cordero (who was obviously being saved in case a save situation arose), a situational lefty who had appeared in both of the previous two games, and a guy who can't find home plate with a divining rod, astrolabe, compass, and atlas right now.

I would have put Leake out there 100 times out of 100.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He's had two bad outings and now he deserves to be sent down? You have to be kidding me.

No. He's had consistent problem with wildness. What's Chapman supposed to be known for? Strikeouts, right? Right now he sits at 15 strikeouts in 12.2 innings. Nothing wrong with that at all. But he also sits at 16 walks in 12.2 innings. You can say what you want about his stuff and his era or his w/l record or whatever...but if you don't have control, you'll never be successful in the majors. EVER. So what's best for him right now is to work out this problem. If they can do that here without it hurting the club, fine. But they haven't shown they can do that yet and he's getting progressively worse.

And for the record, it's not JUST two bad outings. He's had 3 straight outings where he's allowed a run, but I look beyond the runs allowed. I look at the baserunners allowed because he's not always finishing the innings he starts and just because somebody else comes in after him and cleans up his mess doesn't mean he didn't just have a crappy outing, zero earned runs or not.

[reds44]

No. He's had consistent problem with wildness. What's Chapman supposed to be known for? Strikeouts, right? Right now he sits at 15 strikeouts in 12.2 innings. Nothing wrong with that at all. But he also sits at 16 walks in 12.2 innings. You can say what you want about his stuff and his era or his w/l record or whatever...but if you don't have control, you'll never be successful in the majors. EVER. So what's best for him right now is to work out this problem. If they can do that here without it hurting the club, fine. But they haven't shown they can do that yet and he's getting progressively worse.

And for the record, it's not JUST two bad outings. He's had 3 straight outings where he's allowed a run, but I look beyond the runs allowed. I look at the baserunners allowed because he's not always finishing the innings he starts and just because somebody else comes in after him and cleans up his mess doesn't mean he didn't just have a crappy outing, zero earned runs or not.
He's walked 8 guys in his last 1 innings pitched. Those numbers are skewed right now. Before that he walked 13 guys in 25 innings of work in his career, which isn't great but for him it's reasonable.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

All along I've said I'm going to wait until he hits 100 post TJ injuries to start to judge him. He's reached that point now. I don't think it's all surgery related. I wish I could say it was. I think it is part of it, but not the entire reason for his struggles.

If somebody wants to send him to AAA, at this point, it's hard to argue. I just don't think going down there is going to do him any good. I'd continue to let him work out his problems up here until he starts hurting the team (and he hasn't yet).

Like I said, he's making himself hard to defense.

If I'm choosing Leake or Volquez, give me Volquez all day everyday.

He hasn't? :confused:

What more, exactly, do you need to see to realize his epic failure?

Don't be fooled by his three wins or overall record; he's had the good fortune of pitching when the offense has raked the ball or has at the very least bailed him out before the eventual loss (today).

Edinson Volquez is not a Major League pitcher. And I don't care who he was traded for or how much you want to skew the numbers, it's evident he can't pitch up here right now.

And no, I don't give a hoot about 2009. That fluke early season run is no different than Johnny Gomes' fluke run to in May last year.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He hasn't got them out repeatedly. He got them out for two months and has been awful since.

I'm not going to bother pulling up his 1st half stuff from last year. Because you already know that it was good. So let's just look at this year. Because it's apparently been all awful and he's been unable to get hitters out.



IP H ER BB SO
April 5 6.0 3 2 2 4
April 16 6.0 4 2 4 6
April 21 7.0 4 3 2 6
April 26 7.0 7 2 0 6

May 9 (pen) 1.0 0 0 0 1


That's 5 solid outings out of 8. Regardless of who's throwing those numbers, even you'd have to admit those are good numbers. The 4 walks in the April 16th outing look bad I admit, but he only allowed 4 hits and 2 runs. He controlled the damage of the walks he allowed. So, how is that "awful since" the first 2 months of last year? Please, enlighten me. :O)

[_Sir_Charles_]

He's walked 8 guys in his last 1 innings pitched. Those numbers are skewed right now. Before that he walked 13 guys in 25 innings of work in his career, which isn't great but for him it's reasonable.

Before this 3 game stretch he'd allowed 8 walks in 11.2 ip and had 12 K's in 11.2 ip. That's not great either. That's still showing very poor control. He's had short stretches where he's lights out. But you need at least a shred of consistency at the big league level. And it needs to last longer than 2 or 3 outings. People look at that 0.00 era after 12 games and think that's the bottom line. You can't look at that number and think everything's fine. But regardless, my point was that not only has he been inconsistent, but he's taking steps BACKWARDS right now. If this was Carlos Fisher, people would be demanding a replacement.

[_Sir_Charles_]

The options to come in were Leake, Cordero (who was obviously being saved in case a save situation arose), a situational lefty who had appeared in both of the previous two games, and a guy who can't find home plate with a divining rod, astrolabe, compass, and atlas right now.

I would have put Leake out there 100 times out of 100.

The more I think about it the more I see your point. Consider me swayed. :beerme:

[WVRedsFan]

They really had no choice unless they wanted to use Masset for a second inning. Leake isn't meant to relieve, and I'm not sure Chapman can pitch everyday. Of course, all of this is compounded by Volquez's inability to even get to the middle of the game.

[WVRedsFan]

Btw, Rick Sutcolife just said on BBTN that EV's problem was fixable and that it was mechanics. I have to believe Price knows this and has worked on it without success.

[757690]

Despite their flaws, Chapman, Leake and Volquez all deserve to be on the MLB roster. They're the best options the Reds right now.

And what was up with Ondrusek? Could he be.DL'd to make room for Arredondo?

[dougdirt]

Btw, Rick Sutcolife just said on BBTN that EV's problem was fixable and that it was mechanics. I have to believe Price knows this and has worked on it without success.

It may be somewhat mechanical, but lets be honest.... Edinson Volquez has never thrown strikes. Look at his walk rate for his entire career. Heck, look at his walk rates over months within seasons. He has simply never shown even solid control.

[WVRedsFan]

It may be somewhat mechanical, but lets be honest.... Edinson Volquez has never thrown strikes. Look at his walk rate for his entire career. Heck, look at his walk rates over months within seasons. He has simply never shown even solid control.

Very true. And that would mean he will never be very successful in MLB? I think that's right. So, if he hasn't improved in the years since we acquired him, it would follow that he probably isn't going to improve. Ever.

Not good news.

[Griffey012]

I thought Arredondo had pitched great in the minors...where are all these Walks being spoken of coming from?

[dougdirt]

Very true. And that would mean he will never be very successful in MLB? I think that's right. So, if he hasn't improved in the years since we acquired him, it would follow that he probably isn't going to improve. Ever.

Not good news.

Well, it probably just means he is never going to be a true #1 or #2 type of pitcher, but it doesn't mean he can't help out a Major League pitching staff. Listening to the game today Jeff Brantley was talking about how Volquez nibbles, like everyone can just throw it right where they where they want to. That simply isn't true, but it seems that some people can't get the concept that some guys just can't throw the ball where they want to.

[Always Red]

He hasn't? :confused:

What more, exactly, do you need to see to realize his epic failure?

Don't be fooled by his three wins or overall record; he's had the good fortune of pitching when the offense has raked the ball or has at the very least bailed him out before the eventual loss (today).

Edinson Volquez is not a Major League pitcher. And I don't care who he was traded for or how much you want to skew the numbers, it's evident he can't pitch up here right now.

And no, I don't give a hoot about 2009. That fluke early season run is no different than Johnny Gomes' fluke run to in May last year.

I'm in on this, other than I do think EV is a MLB pitcher.

He's had one excellent 1/2- 3/4 season when he moved to a new league, and even then walked nearly 100 guys and led the league in hit batters.

He is an MLB pitcher because he has great stuff; he just can't control it, which has driven many a man out of the league. When the Reds tire of him, and I think they are close, someone else will certainly snatch him up.

At this point I am tired of the walks, from any number of Reds pitchers. The Reds are 2nd in the NL in walks, only behind the Cubs. Chapman has walked 21 hitters in 26 innings, in his career.

The problem is that often the guys with the very best stuff cannot control it, and like a girlfriend who cannot stop flirting with and dating other guys (all the while telling you that she loves you), you hang in there and keep HOPING that things will change.

I'm ready to cut bait on EV. Chapman- no way, they owe him too much and he is very young. I'd trade EV in a heartbeat.

[Always Red]

Well, it probably just means he is never going to be a true #1 or #2 type of pitcher, but it doesn't mean he can't help out a Major League pitching staff. Listening to the game today Jeff Brantley was talking about how Volquez nibbles, like everyone can just throw it right where they where they want to. That simply isn't true, but it seems that some people can't get the concept that some guys just can't throw the ball where they want to.

The very best pitchers can throw it exactly where they want it. It doesn't really matter what kind of stuff they have, if they can hit spots.

If they have pinpoint control and can change speeds, they can be successful MLB pitchers.

That is so very hard to do!

[Always Red]

I'd continue to let him work out his problems up here until he starts hurting the team (and he hasn't yet).


The Reds have trailed in all seven of his starts this season.

I think that's painful.

[PuffyPig]

The Reds have trailed in all seven of his starts this season.

I think that's painful.

THey've also led in most of them . Thanks for playing.

[traderumor]

Well, it probably just means he is never going to be a true #1 or #2 type of pitcher, but it doesn't mean he can't help out a Major League pitching staff. Listening to the game today Jeff Brantley was talking about how Volquez nibbles, like everyone can just throw it right where they where they want to. That simply isn't true, but it seems that some people can't get the concept that some guys just can't throw the ball where they want to.Isn't that what a major league pitcher has to do to be effective? Obviously there are shades of this talent, but it has to be present at some level or you'll be out of a job...or pitching meaningless games in a city that tolerates this type of poor pitching.

Volquez is either nibbling or lacks the command to be an above average ML pitcher. Does it matter what its called?

[edabbs44]

The Reds have trailed in all seven of his starts this season.

I think that's painful.

It is also problematic that he hasn't gotten an out in the 6th inning in half of his starts and hasn't gotten an out in the 7th in any of them.

[WVRedsFan]

I'm in on this, other than I do think EV is a MLB pitcher.

He's had one excellent 1/2- 3/4 season when he moved to a new league, and even then walked nearly 100 guys and led the league in hit batters.

He is an MLB pitcher because he has great stuff; he just can't control it, which has driven many a man out of the league. When the Reds tire of him, and I think they are close, someone else will certainly snatch him up.

At this point I am tired of the walks, from any number of Reds pitchers. The Reds are 2nd in the NL in walks, only behind the Cubs. Chapman has walked 21 hitters in 26 innings, in his career.

The problem is that often the guys with the very best stuff cannot control it, and like a girlfriend who cannot stop flirting with and dating other guys (all the while telling you that she loves you), you hang in there and keep HOPING that things will change.

I'm ready to cut bait on EV. Chapman- no way, they owe him too much and he is very young. I'd trade EV in a heartbeat.I think that outside of his defenders--those that like hard throwers who hope he will come around--everyone from Dusty to Walt to Bryan Price is tired of EV. So much potential and he just doesn't seem to respond to teaching. Rick Stucliffe said, in part, that he lets his whole body fly open when delivering his fastball. He said it was correctable, but only if Volquez concentrated and made it happen. This seems to be the problem.

Unless he gets it together, I look for him to try the open market after the season and someone will pick him up for millions on that "potential." I doubt it will be the Reds.

[WVRedsFan]

It is also problematic that he hasn't gotten an out in the 6th inning in half of his starts and hasn't gotten an out in the 7th in any of them.The Reds have lots of 6-inning pitchers and for the most part they do well. Oh, there's a blowup now and then, but being a 6-inning pitcher is probably the norm for a starter these days. The real problem with EV throwing 88-100 pitches in 4 or 5 innings is that it taxes the bullpen. Today, Dusty had to burn his bullpen just to get through the 8th inning and when the 9th rolled around, there was no one left to go out there (realistically), but Mike Leake. We all know what happened.

[757690]

If Volquez had been getting lit up or walking guys in nearly every inning then I would agree that he's not a major league pitcher or deserves to be sent down to the minors.

But that has not been the case. in nearly 75% of his innings he has not only been an effective major league pitcher, but has been dominant. In nearly every game he suffers from one inning, originally the first, in which he can't find the strike zone and gives up a bunch of runs.

Clearly those innings count and are why he has not been effective overall so far this year. But this to me tells me that can be effective and is very close to being dominant again. Remember that in his most dominant stretch, he was still wild, so he doesn't need to have the control of Greg Maddox to be dominant.

This is definitely a problem, but not one that can't be fixed, nor one that proves he's not a major league pitcher.

[kaldaniels]

I think that outside of his defenders--those that like hard throwers who hope he will come around--everyone from Dusty to Walt to Bryan Price is tired of EV. So much potential and he just doesn't seem to respond to teaching. Rick Stucliffe said, in part, that he lets his whole body fly open when delivering his fastball. He said it was correctable, but only if Volquez concentrated and made it happen. This seems to be the problem.

Unless he gets it together, I look for him to try the open market after the season and someone will pick him up for millions on that "potential." I doubt it will be the Reds.

Unless he is released etc., the Reds will have first dibs on him via arbitration years.

[WVRedsFan]

Unless he is released etc., the Reds will have first dibs on him via arbitration years.Well, at least that's good news. He could be a No. 5 starter at least if he gets his mechanics straightened out. Of course, he could be a bargain if he continues to pitch like this. kal, if the Reds would refuse arbitration, is he free to leave and go free agent? I've never understood that.

And the reason I say No. 5 starter is the control problems. Without those, he could be an ace. I still feel it's mental.

[reds44]

THey've also led in most of them . Thanks for playing.
They are 5-3 in Volquez's starts now.

He's not hurting them yet.

[kaldaniels]

Well, at least that's good news. He could be a No. 5 starter at least if he gets his mechanics straightened out. Of course, he could be a bargain if he continues to pitch like this. kal, if the Reds would refuse arbitration, is he free to leave and go free agent? I've never understood that.

And the reason I say No. 5 starter is the control problems. Without those, he could be an ace. I still feel it's mental.

I'm no expert myself, but yeah, I believe if the Reds simply decline to sign him or go to arbitration with him this offseason he is free to go to the highest bidder. Now bear in mind I personally am under the impression that one day he will get turned back around (with the Reds I hope), but today I couldn't help but think about how his struggles this season could lead to a nice discount on a multi-year deal in the offseason...yeah, I'm sure to some thats crazy talk.

It is amazing that this same guy was our Game 1 and Opening Day starter.

[fearofpopvol1]

Mike Leake has a big big problem. He doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out.

Volquez's issues are fixable. I think Mike Leake is just bad.

Control issues aren't always fixable.

[GAC]

Mike Leake needs to go to AAA. Period. That's all I'm saying.


Mike Leake has a big big problem. He doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out.

Volquez's issues are fixable. I think Mike Leake is just bad.


They are 5-3 in Volquez's starts now.

He's not hurting them yet.

I like EV, so please don't put me on the list of EV haters, but the above logic is absurd, and here's why....

We're 5-3 in EV starts? No thanks to EV in large part. And that certainly is not a sound indicator of how bad (erratic) he has pitched (and you know that).

He's not hurting us yet? C'mon.

The guy has had 8 starts, and only 2 of them would qualify as QS's. He'd be hitting the 100 PC in all of his starts around the 5th inning if Dusty wasn't jerking him in some of them.

He's putting us behind early. That....

- puts added pressure on your offense
- really taxes your bullpen

He's fixable? OK. Won't argue that. But when? When? You'd think he would start showing some progress, even minor. He's not.

Leake doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out? Really? Based on what?

Leake had 6 starts prior to be relegated to the BP. No doubt, two were bad outings. But the other 4 were Qs's where he went 6-7 innings and gave up only 2 ERS (in one he gave up 3). And he won 3 of those starts, and the 4th one, where he pitched excellent (left in the 7th with the game tied 2-2), was lost by Ondrusek, who gave up a HR in the 8th (3-2 was the final).

I don't know if Mike Leake is going to work out or not. But he was a #1 pick, a darn good college pitcher, and many, including myself, were impressed with what he accomplished last year, especially having not spent one day in the minors. That does say something.

But right now, I have no confidence in watching EV pitch. I know Baker probably isn't going to do it - because look at the leash he's giving Gomes - but I'd use that option on EV and send him done to AAA. He needs to work on some issues. And it also could send the message of a "wake up" call.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, it probably just means he is never going to be a true #1 or #2 type of pitcher, but it doesn't mean he can't help out a Major League pitching staff. Listening to the game today Jeff Brantley was talking about how Volquez nibbles, like everyone can just throw it right where they where they want to. That simply isn't true, but it seems that some people can't get the concept that some guys just can't throw the ball where they want to.

From my perspective, I don't expect a pitcher to hit his spot everytime. Not even close. However, I do expect them to hit their spot occasionally. Maybe more than 50% of the time. Edinson's lucky if he hits the spot once a game. If he throws a strike, it was by accident almost. I don't expect pinpoint control...but I do expect some clue as to where it might go. He IS Calvin LaLoosh.

[edabbs44]

They are 5-3 in Volquez's starts now.

He's not hurting them yet.

Cincy is 17-13 when a certain LF starts as well.

Even I wouldn't make an argument on his behalf based on that logic.

[edabbs44]

I like EV, so please don't put me on the list of EV haters, but the above logic is absurd, and here's why....

We're 5-3 in EV starts? No thanks to EV in large part. And that certainly is not a sound indicator of how bad (erratic) he has pitched (and you know that).

He's not hurting us yet? C'mon.

The guy has had 8 starts, and only 2 of them would qualify as QS's. He'd be hitting the 100 PC in all of his starts around the 5th inning if Dusty wasn't jerking him in some of them.

He's putting us behind early. That....

- puts added pressure on your offense
- really taxes your bullpen

He's fixable? OK. Won't argue that. But when? When? You'd think he would start showing some progress, even minor. He's not.

Leake doesn't have the stuff to get major league hitters out? Really? Based on what?

Leake had 6 starts prior to be relegated to the BP. No doubt, two were bad outings. But the other 4 were Qs's where he went 6-7 innings and gave up only 2 ERS (in one he gave up 3). And he won 3 of those starts, and the 4th one, where he pitched excellent (left in the 7th with the game tied 2-2), was lost by Ondrusek, who gave up a HR in the 8th (3-2 was the final).

I don't know if Mike Leake is going to work out or not. But he was a #1 pick, a darn good college pitcher, and many, including myself, were impressed with what he accomplished last year, especially having not spent one day in the minors. That does say something.

But right now, I have no confidence in watching EV pitch. I know Baker probably isn't going to do it - because look at the leash he's giving Gomes - but I'd use that option on EV and send him done to AAA. He needs to work on some issues. And it also could send the message of a "wake up" call.

Yep, I have to agree with everything said here.

[bucksfan2]

Well, it probably just means he is never going to be a true #1 or #2 type of pitcher, but it doesn't mean he can't help out a Major League pitching staff. Listening to the game today Jeff Brantley was talking about how Volquez nibbles, like everyone can just throw it right where they where they want to. That simply isn't true, but it seems that some people can't get the concept that some guys just can't throw the ball where they want to.

#1 or #2, he doesn't look like a #5 pitcher. I think Brantley's point wasn't that he nibbles too much, its that he tries to make the batters swing and miss at every pitch. He doesn't like to throw his pitches in the zone, rather wants them to chase pitches out of the zone.

Right now he is a guy who is throwing 100 pitches before he finishes the 5th inning. He is tasking the pen with throwing 4 innings of relief in order to finish the game. He doesn't belong in the rotation right now. Its a shame the way it played out yesterday in that Volquez was yet again ineffective, allowed the Astros to jump to an early lead, then Leake had to come in for his first relief role in a tie game in the 9th.

[Chip R]

Right now he is a guy who is throwing 100 pitches before he finishes the 5th inning. He is tasking the pen with throwing 4 innings of relief in order to finish the game. He doesn't belong in the rotation right now. Its a shame the way it played out yesterday in that Volquez was yet again ineffective, allowed the Astros to jump to an early lead, then Leake had to come in for his first relief role in a tie game in the 9th.

Volquez wasn't good yesterday but he only gave up 3 runs. And that wasn't the forst time Leake's pitched in relief. He made a good pitch to Pence but Pence just hit it well. The walk's on him but whether he's starting or relieving, Leake's got to pitch well or else he's going to wind up in AAA.

[bucksfan2]

Volquez wasn't good yesterday but he only gave up 3 runs. And that wasn't the forst time Leake's pitched in relief. He made a good pitch to Pence but Pence just hit it well. The walk's on him but whether he's starting or relieving, Leake's got to pitch well or else he's going to wind up in AAA.

3 runs in 4 innings isn't good. 3 runs in 4 innings is why the Reds had to turn to the pen early. 3 runs in 4 innings to an Astros lineup without Carlos Lee is pretty pathetic.

[757690]

From my perspective, I don't expect a pitcher to hit his spot everytime. Not even close. However, I do expect them to hit their spot occasionally. Maybe more than 50% of the time. Edinson's lucky if he hits the spot once a game. If he throws a strike, it was by accident almost. I don't expect pinpoint control...but I do expect some clue as to where it might go. He IS Calvin LaLoosh.

Volquez has thrown shutout innings 70% of the time this season.

He does become LaLoosh for one inning nearly every game, but for the rest of the game he has fine control and is a dominant pitcher.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Leake had to come in for his first relief role in a tie game in the 9th.

Just to clarify, it wasn't Mike's first relief role. He also came in for the 1st game of the Houston series for 1 perfect inning of relief. Also his last 2 appearances in 2010 were in relief as well.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Volquez has thrown shutout innings 70% of the time this season.

He does become LaLoosh for one inning nearly every game, but for the rest of the game he has fine control and is a dominant pitcher.

I'll buy the shutout innings 70% of the time part, but there's no way I'm buying the "fine control" part. Even in those 70% of shutout innings, he's not pitching with control. Just because the hitters are swinging and missing or hitting into outs does not mean he's pitching with fine control. I think it means the hitters are taking him off the hook quite often by swinging at stuff out of the zone or the pitches that he does put in the zone weren't where they were supposed to be in the first place. At no point this season has he displayed "fine control". He'll hit an occasional spot, but I've certainly never seen it happen on more than 2 or 3 pitches in a row....or even 2 or 3 to one batter.

[bucksfan2]

Just to clarify, it wasn't Mike's first relief role. He also came in for the 1st game of the Houston series for 1 perfect inning of relief. Also his last 2 appearances in 2010 were in relief as well.

I guess I missed his first relief appearance this season. Last year he went to the pen as innings control so I don't put a whole lot of stock in it. I don't like him one bit in the pen especially with Volquez struggling to get out of the 4th inning.

[nate]

Volquez has thrown shutout innings 70% of the time this season.

He does become LaLoosh for one inning nearly every game, but for the rest of the game he has fine control and is a dominant pitcher.

I've never used the "shutout inning percentage" stat. What's percentage is league average?

[kaldaniels]

I've never used the "shutout inning percentage" stat. What's percentage is league average?

Yeah without looking, I wonder how many of those shutout innings include a walk. I would say we could exclude those innings from the "fine control" category.

Don't know if this has been posted, but fangraphs did a EV piece a few days ago.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/whats-wrong-with-edinson-volquez/

[757690]

I've never used the "shutout inning percentage" stat. What's percentage is league average?

Neither am I in terms of talking about how good a pitcher is. I only using it to show that he wasn't LaLoosh all the time, usually just one inning at a time. It also points to his control problem being more fixable than if he was wild all game long.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Neither am I in terms of talking about how good a pitcher is. I only using it to show that he wasn't LaLoosh all the time, usually just one inning at a time. It also points to his control problem being more fixable than if he was wild all game long.

March 31: 2 of his 6 innings were scoreless & walkless
April 6: 2 of his 5 innings
April 11: 3 of his 6 innings
April 17: 2 of his 6 innings
April 24: 4 of his 6 innings (by FAR his best outing...vs Cards)
...................No walks or runs until the 5th inning.
...................Ironically, it's also his first loss.
Aprill 30: 2 of his 5 innings
May 6: 1 of his 6 innings
May 11: 1 of his 4 innings

So, 17 of his 44 innings this season have been scoreless AND without a walk. Now lots of those innings he allowed hits (and even some HBP's), but I wasn't counting those.

Not very close to 70% IMO. And DEFINITELY not only "one" bad inning a game. He spreads those walks around ALOT. The runs too.

[757690]

March 31: 2 of his 6 innings were scoreless & walkless
April 6: 2 of his 5 innings
April 11: 3 of his 6 innings
April 17: 2 of his 6 innings
April 24: 4 of his 6 innings (by FAR his best outing...vs Cards)
...................No walks or runs until the 5th inning.
...................Ironically, it's also his first loss.
Aprill 30: 2 of his 5 innings
May 6: 1 of his 6 innings
May 11: 1 of his 4 innings

So, 17 of his 44 innings this season have been scoreless AND without a walk. Now lots of those innings he allowed hits (and even some HBP's), but I wasn't counting those.

Not very close to 70% IMO. And DEFINITELY not only "one" bad inning a game. He spreads those walks around ALOT. The runs too.

Walking one batter in an inning does not make it a "bad" inning, nor is it a sign of lack of control. I have no idea how to check this, but I would bet that in his scoreless innings, which are 70% of his innings, his walk rate is around league average.

In the Fangraphs article, it mentioned that his first pitch strike % was well above league average, which suggests what I was saying. That he has decent control overall, but just has wild streaks where he gives out walks in bunches.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Walking one batter in an inning does not make it a "bad" inning, nor is it a sign of lack of control. I have no idea how to check this, but I would bet that in his scoreless innings, which are 70% of his innings, his walk rate is around league average.

In the Fangraphs article, it mentioned that his first pitch strike % was well above league average, which suggests what I was saying. That he has decent control overall, but just has wild streaks where he gives out walks in bunches.

For the bolded part...you'd lose that bet. I'm at work so I don't have the time to crunch the numbers, but in looking at all his outings via the play by plays....his walks were very evenly spread out. It's Chapman who delivers them in tight bunches.

Just for the record, those other innings weren't just one walk innings either. Lots of multiple walk innings, multiple hit innings, etc. Go back and look at the play by plays of those games. You'll see what I mean. He has had some 1-2-3 innings with multiple K's...but they've been rare.

And just to clarify my point, just because you don't end up walking someone, doesn't mean you weren't wild to that batter. He routinely misses his spots rather badly. I've seen Ramon set up a couple of feet outside to see if the batter will chase one, only to see Edinson miss so badly that it ends up called a strike on the inside corner. But it's a strike...so he must not have been wild there. :confused: Not knowing where the ball is going to go is my definition of wild. And he fits it to a "T".

[Patrick Bateman]

I think both sides are overreatcing here.

I think both are actually quite a bit better than they have shown.

Even at his best EV has had control issues. Notwithstanding his poor starts, he's likley to get back on track to some type of MLB pitcher, as his peripherals dictate. The thought of him developing into an ace by harnessing his control is likely an afterthought at this point. A bit of a wildcard to make a fixture of the long term team, however, deserves a longer rope.

As for Leake, he has actually continued to show strong ground ball tendencies and even begain missing some bats this year. Again, the results suck, but that happens in small samples, and has shown enough to deserve a longer rope. Is a good candidate to get some work in the minors, mostly to develop a little more and knock his arb clock back. But he has the makings of a reasonable mid rotation guy over the next 5 years.

Is either a world beater? No, and probably never will be. But they don't need to be booted out to Greenland either.

[757690]

For the bolded part...you'd lose that bet. I'm at work so I don't have the time to crunch the numbers, but in looking at all his outings via the play by plays....his walks were very evenly spread out. It's Chapman who delivers them in tight bunches.

Just for the record, those other innings weren't just one walk innings either. Lots of multiple walk innings, multiple hit innings, etc. Go back and look at the play by plays of those games. You'll see what I mean. He has had some 1-2-3 innings with multiple K's...but they've been rare.

And just to clarify my point, just because you don't end up walking someone, doesn't mean you weren't wild to that batter. He routinely misses his spots rather badly. I've seen Ramon set up a couple of feet outside to see if the batter will chase one, only to see Edinson miss so badly that it ends up called a strike on the inside corner. But it's a strike...so he must not have been wild there. :confused: Not knowing where the ball is going to go is my definition of wild. And he fits it to a "T".

I can't comment on what you see, but that is not what I see. I see a guy who is constantly around the plate, but once a game nibbles too much, tries to be too fine and then falls apart.

As for the stats, this year, league average BB/9 is 3.3. In the innings in which he does not give up a run, Volquez's is 3.41. In the innings in which he does give up a run, it's 9.0.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I can't comment on what you see, but that is not what I see. I see a guy who is constantly around the plate, but once a game nibbles too much, tries to be too fine and then falls apart.

As for the stats, this year, league average BB/9 is 3.3. In the innings in which he does not give up a run, Volquez's is 3.41. In the innings in which he does give up a run, it's 9.0.

I watch the catchers mitt. I watch to see how far off from the target he actually is. He may get a strike on the lower outside corner, but if the target was a up and in fastball...that's not good.

As for the walks per nine with no runs...major small sample size alert. But of course I'd expect his numbers in innings where runs score to be drastically higher...those walks are scoring. If you're going to compare his non-scoring innings to the league...then compare it to the league's non-scoring innings.

Regardless, I think we're getting far afield from the topic (Arredondo) and probably missing the forest for the trees in regards to Volquez. Picking apart the stats to the degree that we're doing still isn't changing the fact that he's leading the league in walks, 8th worst in WHIP and failing to go past the 5th or 6th inning. I'm done for now though...we really need to get this topic back on Arredondo.

Btw...anybody know when we have to "officially" make a decision on Arredondo?

[RED VAN HOT]

The Rehab ended and Jose is no longer on any roster. How long can he be kept in the twilight zone and what advantage is there in doing it?

[REDREAD]

Why not? Seriously, explain why not? What has he done to deserve to continue to be up here?

Chapman? His last 3 outings have been rough.
The previous 12.. 10 out of 12 outings have been good. IIRC, no earned runs in the first 12 outings.. Yes, that is misleading with a relief pitcher.

I think people are overreacting with Chapman. It's easily to get emotional, especially with relievers. You look at Chapman's total body of work, and he looks good to rebound. He will never have super fine control, but he will get better. The Reds need to prepare for the playoffs and can invest some time at the ML level in order to have Chapman tuned up and ready for the playoffs.

I agree with the poster that said ideally Volquez would get optioned down, and Leake takes his rotation spot. I doubt that happens. Given that, I guess it makes most sense for Leake to go down. LeCure is less talented, but thriving in relief.

[REDREAD]

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Mike was in the game in the first place. Seemed like a perfect time for Cordero.

(and like I've said before, Leake is not suited for the pen IMO)

I agree. Dusty screwed up.
Leake should've been brought in early in the game to mop up for Volquez.
Let him get his feet wet coming out of the pen. Don't make his first pen appearance in a high pressure situation.. ease him into it.
Dusty had Cordero and at least one other guy in the pen. Putting Leake in was wrong.

Also agree with you that I don't ever want to see Herrera on the Reds roster again.

[REDREAD]

He hasn't got them out repeatedly. He got them out for two months and has been awful since.

Yet Leake has far more QS this year than Volquez.
In April, Leake had 4 of 5 QS, while Wood only had 3 of 6.

Leake has had more than a good 2 months in the ML.

[edabbs44]

Anyone who thinks that Volquez's wildness is a product of "nibbling" is fooling themselves.

[Chip R]

Anyone who thinks that Volquez's wildness is a product of "nibbling" is fooling themselves.

I agree. I don't think he's intentionally throwing it out of the strike zone. I think, like Chapman, he doesn't really have much of an idea where it's going. He's still got nasty stuff and just owned the Cards until that inning where Molina hit that homer. AAA may not tbe the best place for him. If he has to build up innings, Dayton (where they can monitor him closer) or AA may be the best places for him. Someplace he can pitch 6-7 innings even if he's walking the ballpark. Obviously he has a pitch count but he's really not doing himself or the Reds any good going 4-5 innings.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I personally have no clue how this works, but does anybody know what the rules are considering Arredondo? He's kind of in limbo right now it seems. When are we required to make some sort of decision concerning him?

[_Sir_Charles_]

I agree. I don't think he's intentionally throwing it out of the strike zone. I think, like Chapman, he doesn't really have much of an idea where it's going. He's still got nasty stuff and just owned the Cards until that inning where Molina hit that homer. AAA may not tbe the best place for him. If he has to build up innings, Dayton (where they can monitor him closer) or AA may be the best places for him. Someplace he can pitch 6-7 innings even if he's walking the ballpark. Obviously he has a pitch count but he's really not doing himself or the Reds any good going 4-5 innings.

Very much...THIS.

I'm not a fan of him going to AAA. To the minors, yes. Not Louisville. But for me, the main thing is I want some new eyes looking at him. Several sets in fact. It doesn't seem to me that Price has found anything. Or maybe it's that Edinson's not listening (or implementing) to his suggestions? Sometimes hearing the same advice from a different person can make things click into place. But regardless, he needs to be closely monitored...and the lower in the minors the better. It's not about who he faces...it's about his mechanics and being able to repeat them effectively. Just my opinion of course. (so much for me not chiming in again on this topic *grin*)

[Chip R]

I personally have no clue how this works, but does anybody know what the rules are considering Arredondo? He's kind of in limbo right now it seems. When are we required to make some sort of decision concerning him?

That's an excellent question. I would guess a move will be made by tomorrow night but I looked at the CBA and it really doesn't specify what happens if a player isn't back with the big league team when the assingment is over. I suppose the player could become a free agent.

[REDREAD]

That's an excellent question. I would guess a move will be made by tomorrow night but I looked at the CBA and it really doesn't specify what happens if a player isn't back with the big league team when the assingment is over. I suppose the player could become a free agent.

Well, they are predicting that Rolen will be activated tommorrow.
I wonder if a corresponding move will be made to put Arroyondo on the roster, but they are going to wait until the last minute to announce it. I doubt it's much of an advantage against the Cardinals, but that's probably how they are playing it.

[_Sir_Charles_]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/05/11/whats_to_be_done_with_edinson.html

Hal wrote a nice piece I saw just now. He goes into detail on what he'd do given the current situation with Leake, Volquez, Gomes, Arredondo & Chapman. Seems he's been lurking around here. :O)


The good news: Edinson Volquez didn’t give up any runs in the first inning Wednesday to the Houston Astros.

The bad, bad, bad, bad, bad news: From the second through the fourth, Volquez was as bad as a pitcher could be — and I will re-iterate what I said BEFORE Wednesday’s start: “It is time to remove Volquez from the rotation, here and now and forthwith.”

And maybe he should change his name to Edinson Walkquez.

[Chip R]

O.K., that makes sense. Arredondo could just stay on the DL indefinitely.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, Fay said that he was told they'd make a decision on Arredondo today. I guess it's wait and see now.

[GAC]

Take it for what it's worth, but I heard on McAllister's show, as well as during the game the other night, that once Arredondo completed his 30 day rehab assignment the Reds have to make a decision on him. They don't have to activate him, but he can't stay on rehab either. He's out of options, so he must be added to the 25-man roster, sit inactive on the disabled list or passed through waivers (and likely be snatched up). And the Reds ain't gonna let that happen after investing so much in him.

I pretty much agree with RR's above comments, since it's the Cards, that they are gonna pull a "LaRussa" and wait till the last minute to announce activations (changes).

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, Fay said that he was told they'd make a decision on Arredondo today. I guess it's wait and see now.

~edit~ My apologies, Fay said it would be TODAY (Friday).

[klw]

I'm assuming they made the decision yesterday but won't do an announcement until about 3:37. By waiting until today, they let everyone one know who is going where and get the guys in place. It seems like that is always how it plays out with moves coming out of an off day.

[PuffyPig]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/05/11/whats_to_be_done_with_edinson.html

Hal wrote a nice piece I saw just now. He goes into detail on what he'd do given the current situation with Leake, Volquez, Gomes, Arredondo & Chapman. Seems he's been lurking around here. :O)

Since Hal is generally considered an idiot around here (and generally for good reason), what should we make of this?

[757690]

Since Hal is generally considered an idiot around here (and generally for good reason), what should we make of this?

Speak for yourself.

Hal likes to play Perez Hilton sometime, but I've never had a problem with his analysis.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Since Hal is generally considered an idiot around here (and generally for good reason), what should we make of this?

Well, I don't share that sentiment. I like Hal and his stuff. I posted it so others could read it. Make of it what you will.

[Patrick Bateman]

Speak for yourself.

Hal likes to play Perez Hilton sometime, but I've never had a problem with his analysis.

He did.

"Generally considered" does not apply to every person on this board.

[westofyou]

Hal writes ok about baseball, I've never felt he was a problem solver when it came to the game, it's not his style to pretend to be either.

Know thy strengths.

[CrackerJack]

YouTube - Marvin Gaye- What's Going On (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev2yO-OHc58&feature=related)

[cinreds21]

Donde es José Arredondo?

I honestly don't understand why such a big deal is being made of it from the front office and here. Just activate him and send LeCure or Leake down. Dang. Not that hard or complicated.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Per Fay....


ARREDONDO WATCH: Right-handed reliever Jose Arredondo’s rehab time ran out Tuesday, but the Reds still have not announced a decision on whether he will join the team. Arredondo had a 2.30 ERA in 12 rehab games, including six games at Double-A Carolina and six at Triple-A Louisville.

“He’s not here yet,” Baker said. “Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves. I know everybody’s readers want to know when it happens.”

[cinreds21]

lol this is so beyond me. He completed his rehab, all 30 days of it. It's not like they didn't know this day was coming. This is very unprofessional in my opinion. I surely hope they are giving him answers and not just having him set in limbo like they are with the media.

[Scrap Irony]

Perhaps they're waiting until tomorrow so that they can, in essence, have a14-man pitching staff for the Cardinals.

Use LeCure or Leake tonight as long man if needed, move him tomorrow, bring in Arrendondo. One more thing for LaRussa to worry about.

[_Sir_Charles_]

lol this is so beyond me. He completed his rehab, all 30 days of it. It's not like they didn't know this day was coming. This is very unprofessional in my opinion. I surely hope they are giving him answers and not just having him set in limbo like they are with the media.

This was my concern as well. That's why I wanted to know what the rules were regarding this situation. Because for Jose, this has to be absolutely frustrating.

[cinreds21]

This was my concern as well. That's why I wanted to know what the rules were regarding this situation. Because for Jose, this has to be absolutely frustrating.

I've never heard of a team do this. If anything they just release him once the rehab is over.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, hopefully we're just not getting the details. Who knows, maybe it's something on Jose's end. Personal or family matter, who knows. I guess all we can do is be patient (I'm not good at this) and trust the guys in charge.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Per fay with a bit more info...


The Reds will decide this weekend whether to activate or designate Arredondo, with activation the more likely scenario, assistant general manager Bob Miller said.

[OnBaseMachine]

From Tom Groeschen:

#Reds to decide this weekend whether to activate or designate Arredondo; activation the more likely scenario, asst GM Bob Miller said

http://twitter.com/TomGroeschen

DFA'ing Arredondo shouldn't even be in the discussion. It's an easy decision really. Bring Arredondo up and send down Leake or LeCure. Why would you rehab a guy for over a year, send him out on rehab and watch him pitch extremely well, only to DFA him? Thankfully it appears the Reds will hang on to him. He's got a chance to be a another huge weapon out of the pen.

[cinreds21]

It should be "Ok his 30 days are up. Mike you're going down to Triple-A"

It shouldn't be this waiting game bs that they are doing.

[reds44]

I wouldn't send down LeCure to activate Arredondo.

Now Leake....well yeah.

[klw]

Perhaps they're waiting until tomorrow so that they can, in essence, have a14-man pitching staff for the Cardinals.

Use LeCure or Leake tonight as long man if needed, move him tomorrow, bring in Arrendondo. One more thing for LaRussa to worry about.


The other reason this makes a lot of sense is the iffy forecast for all 3 days this weekend. An inopportune weather delay could burn a starter and make a long man that much more needed. Especially with LeCure going 2 yesterday.

[reds44]

It's painfully obvious who should be sent down.

[klw]

I think they keep Leake here through tomorrow and see if LeCure gets burned. If he doesn't they then send Leake to AAA Sunday and Activate Arredondo then.

[camisadelgolf]

If tonight were a blowout, they could've used Leake and sent him down immediately following the game. That way, the bullpen would be a little more fresh moving forward. I think it's just a strategic move.

[757690]

I also think they haven't decided to send down yet. I wouldn't bet on Leake going to AAA.

[LoganBuck]

Kinda nice having a guy ready to go after an extra inning ball game where you used five pitchers.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Well, this became an easy decision after tonight's game. (If it wasn't already.)

[OnBaseMachine]

Mike Leake is a starting pitcher. If he's not starting every fifth day in Cincinnati then he should be in Louisville starting, IMO. Send Leake to Louisville and activate Arredondo. Or if the Reds feel like Volquez needs some time in Triple-A, send him down, insert Leake back into the rotation and bring up Arredondo. Either one works. I'd probably go with option one first and then if Volquez continues his struggles he and Leake can switch places.

[traderumor]

Well, this became an easy decision after tonight's game. (If it wasn't already.)I was thinking the same thing.

[Guacarock]

I see Leake going to AAA, and Arredondo getting the call-up.

Doesn't make sense to rehab and then release Arredondo.

And Leake doesn't seem to be working well out of the pen, although admittedly he's only been inserted into a few games and really not in situations where you might expect him to adjust and thrive.

[OnBaseMachine]

According to the Reds twitter feed, Arredondo has been reinstated from the DL and Mike Leake optioned to Louisville.

http://twitter.com/CincinnatiReds

[reds44]

Thank you, God.

[cumberlandreds]

No surprise. Leake's a starter not a reliever. He can go to Louisville and be in their rotation. If Volquez continues to struggle he may be back to Cincy very soon.

[cinreds21]

Bout time.

[HokieRed]

No surprise. Leake's a starter not a reliever. He can go to Louisville and be in their rotation. If Volquez continues to struggle he may be back to Cincy very soon.

I hope that there will be a real understood competition between Volquez and Leake--in other words, that Leake really can earn that job back and it doesn't just go, perpetually, to Volquez irrespective of performance. For that matter, I'd hope Sam LeCure, who's frankly been better than both of them, is also regarded as eligible to claim the 5 spot. Sending Leake to Louisville seems to me the right move; he needs the innings, the Reds need another real reliever, a guy to take some of the load, especially if Chapman's going to be unreliable for a while longer. I just want to see Leake back in the rotation if he earns it.

[KittyDuran]

I see Leake going to AAA, and Arredondo getting the call-up.

Doesn't make sense to rehab and then release Arredondo.

And Leake doesn't seem to be working well out of the pen, although admittedly he's only been inserted into a few games and really not in situations where you might expect him to adjust and thrive.

Sigh... Talk @ setting up someone 2 fail. Of course, this should satisfy all who had issues w/the kid not having the experience "needed" in the minors. The best thing @ this? I've NEVER used the ignore feature on RZ but was getting very close w/more than a few concerning this player. BTW... Good luck Mike! Like Homer before I might venture down I-71 2 see ya!

[mth123]

I hope that there will be a real understood competition between Volquez and Leake--in other words, that Leake really can earn that job back and it doesn't just go, perpetually, to Volquez irrespective of performance. For that matter, I'd hope Sam LeCure, who's frankly been better than both of them, is also regarded as eligible to claim the 5 spot. Sending Leake to Louisville seems to me the right move; he needs the innings, the Reds need another real reliever, a guy to take some of the load, especially if Chapman's going to be unreliable for a while longer. I just want to see Leake back in the rotation if he earns it.

And it won't take more than a couple weeks to push Free Agency back a year and about six more to push back Arb. No downside to this move whatsoever IMO. Why waste that service time when he's just not ready? Didn't we learn anything from the mishandling of Homer?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Sigh... Talk @ setting up someone 2 fail. Of course, this should satisfy all who had issues w/the kid not having the experience "needed" in the minors. The best thing @ this? I've NEVER used the ignore feature on RZ but was getting very close w/more than a few concerning this player. BTW... Good luck Mike! Like Homer before I might venture down I-71 2 see ya!

:clap: I know EXACTLY what you mean Kitty. Trying to ignore someone here without using that feature is tough. It gets VERY old having the same people driving the same point home over and over again. Rule #5 says they're not supposed to "excessively criticize a player" but maybe that doesn't apply to everyone. It got so annoying for me a week or two ago that I did use the ignore feature for a few people. I was just getting to aggravated.

And I totally second your best wishes to Mike. Prove people wrong kid!

[Puffy]

:clap: I know EXACTLY what you mean Kitty. Trying to ignore someone here without using that feature is tough. It gets VERY old having the same people driving the same point home over and over again. Rule #5 says they're not supposed to "excessively criticize a player" but maybe that doesn't apply to everyone. It got so annoying for me a week or two ago that I did use the ignore feature for a few people. I was just getting to aggravated.

And I totally second your best wishes to Mike. Prove people wrong kid!


While I agree with you you in this instance Sir_Charles I feel obligated to *cough* Orlando Cabrera *cough* remind you that you were quite the one tune trickster last year.........

[_Sir_Charles_]

While I agree with you you in this instance Sir_Charles I feel obligated to *cough* Orlando Cabrera *cough* remind you that you were quite the one tune trickster last year.........

Gotta disagree with you there Puffy. I voiced my preference for Janish most of the time. I rarely said negative things about Cabrera. While he struggled mightily early on defensively, he made tremendous strides later on. And I always acknowleged that he was a better bat than Paul last year...just that I thought Paul had more room for improvement and that regular playing time would show that (still feel that way too). You might wanna go back and check your facts on that one. I'm sure you could find me stating some negative things about OCab, but I bet I could find just as many positive ones.

If you're referring to game threads...I responded to plays just like everyone else did. If I harp on something, it's the positive...not the negative criticism.

[hebroncougar]

And it won't take more than a couple weeks to push Free Agency back a year and about six more to push back Arb. No downside to this move whatsoever IMO. Why waste that service time when he's just not ready? Didn't we learn anything from the mishandling of Homer?

Yeah, Leake was 4/6 in quality starts. He's not ready. Volquez, by the way, is 1/8 for quality starts. Tell me who's doing more damage to this team.

[Sea Ray]

Yeah, Leake was 4/6 in quality starts. He's not ready. Volquez, by the way, is 1/8 for quality starts. Tell me who's doing more damage to this team.

Volquez isn't off the hook yet. He could find himself with the same fate

[mth123]

Yeah, Leake was 4/6 in quality starts. He's not ready. Volquez, by the way, is 1/8 for quality starts. Tell me who's doing more damage to this team.

Pitching in the minors won't do anything for Volquez. A few months in AAA might put the finishing touches on Leake being a solid starter for several years.

[corkedbat]

I have zero problems with Arredondo up and Leake to L'Ville. JA's got the chance to be elite in the pen when 100%. I like seeing Leake starting every fifth day in the Bats rotation. I feel like the Reds are getting to the point where it is becoming almost necessary to move a package to grab one major piece to improve LF, SS or a TOR starter.

[VR]

Pitching in the minors won't do anything for Volquez. A few months in AAA might put the finishing touches on Leake being a solid starter for several years.

I say book lunch with Nolan Ryan. That's what did it for the Big Unit.

[fearofpopvol1]

Pitching in the minors won't do anything for Volquez. A few months in AAA might put the finishing touches on Leake being a solid starter for several years.

It will keep Volquez from walking major league batters and giving up runs while pitching for the Reds.

[WebScorpion]

Why does everyone think Volquez still has a minor league option? If Volquez has options, he'd have been sent down already. He used his 3 options in 2005, 2006, and 2007 and he doesn't qualify for a 4th option because 2008 was his 5th pro season (2004 in the minors was technically his first since his 2003 short-season league time doesn't count) Even if you discount 2009 and 2010 due to injury, this is his 6th pro season = no 4th option. I don't care what Fay says, Volquez does not have any options left. He hasn't been sent down because he'd have to clear outright waivers first..yes, the irrevocable kind. The only way Leake comes back is if someone is traded or injured, or he swaps places with Wood.

Check it yourself:
The Rules (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php)

Volquie's record. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/volqued01.shtml)

[mth123]

It will keep Volquez from walking major league batters and giving up runs while pitching for the Reds.

That's true. I think something needs to be done about Volquez as well. But this move will end up being a long term positive for Leake and the Reds. I don't really think either would be an asset in the short term. Volquez just needs to keep pitching for another year or so to get closer to what he was in 2008. I'm skeptical of it happening in 2011. The Reds need to use the DL for Volquez and if he's not really hurt will need his cooperation to make that happen.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Seasons spent entirely in short-season leagues (the New-York Penn, Northwest, Pioneer, Appalachian, Gulf Coast, and Arizona Rookie Leagues, as well as the Dominican and Venezuelan Summer Leagues) don't count as seasons for the purposes of a fourth option.

Would this make it to where he gets the 4th option? If you recall he was send down to A ball by Texas.

I'm no expert, but he's very close on many counts. The 20 days rules multiple times, the total numbers of days up, etc.

[WebScorpion]

Would this make it to where he gets the 4th option? If you recall he was send down to A ball by Texas.

I'm no expert, but he's very close on many counts. The 20 days rules multiple times, the total numbers of days up, etc.

This is his 9th season of pro ball! You'd have to eliminate 4 seasons to make it count as his 5th. His first season (2003) can be eliminated for that rookie ball reason (btw, from that link click on 'Minors' to see his full Minor League record); 2009 can be eliminated on the less than 60 days at the beginning of the season rule; 2010 can be eliminated because of the less than 90 days at the end of a season stipulation. That's only 3 years...all his other seasons qualify under the rule as 'professional baseball', making this his 6th season under the rule. That means he has no options. Sorry. :dunno:

[westofyou]

Why does everyone think Volquez still has a minor league option?

Most folks don't do research before typing is my guess.

[Brutus]

Why does everyone think Volquez still has a minor league option? If Volquez has options, he'd have been sent down already. He used his 3 options in 2005, 2006, and 2007 and he doesn't qualify for a 4th option because 2008 was his 5th pro season (2004 in the minors was technically his first since his 2003 short-season league time doesn't count) Even if you discount 2009 and 2010 due to injury, this is his 6th pro season = no 4th option. I don't care what Fay says, Volquez does not have any options left. He hasn't been sent down because he'd have to clear outright waivers first..yes, the irrevocable kind. The only way Leake comes back is if someone is traded or injured, or he swaps places with Wood.

Check it yourself:
The Rules (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php)

Volquie's record. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/volqued01.shtml)

This is not correct for a few reasons.

To begin with, he did not use an option in 2005. According to transaction history, his contract was first purchased by the Rangers late in 2005 (i.e. added to the 40-man roster--on August 30, 2005 to be precise). Since he spent the last month of the season with the Rangers, he was not charged an option in 2005 as his time in the minors prior to August 30 were not on optional assignment, as he was not yet on the 40-man roster.

He then used options in 2006 and 2007 with the rangers. That means he had one (1) remaining when coming to the Reds.

Last year on August 31, the Reds used that option to assign him to Dayton. However, he spent only 8 days on optional assignment before being recalled (September 7). Since it was less than the allowed 20 days, that means his third option was not used. By this, I mean the ML rule on optional assignments is that any optional assignments in aggregate during the course of the year that total less than 20 days mean the "option" does not get used.

Thusly, Volquez still has one (1) option remaining.

(edited for further clarity)

[Sea Ray]

This is not correct for a few reasons.

To begin with, he did not use an option in 2005. According to transaction history, his contract was first purchased by the Rangers late in 2005 (i.e. added to the 40-man roster). Since he spent the last month of the season with the Rangers, he was not charged an option in 2005.

He then used options in 2006 and 2007 with the rangers. That means he had one (1) remaining when coming to the Reds.

Last year on August 31, the Reds used that option to assign him to Dayton. However, he spent only 8 days on optional assignment before being recalled. Since it was less than the allowed 20 days, that means his third option was not used.

Thusly, Volquez still has one (1) option remaining.

Thanks for the productive post Brutus which is more than I can say about some others. It's a complicated issue that deserves dissection

[PuffyPig]

This is not correct for a few reasons.

To begin with, he did not use an option in 2005. According to transaction history, his contract was first purchased by the Rangers late in 2005 (i.e. added to the 40-man roster). Since he spent the last month of the season with the Rangers, he was not charged an option in 2005.

He then used options in 2006 and 2007 with the rangers. That means he had one (1) remaining when coming to the Reds.

Last year on August 31, the Reds used that option to assign him to Dayton. However, he spent only 8 days on optional assignment before being recalled. Since it was less than the allowed 20 days, that means his third option was not used.

Thusly, Volquez still has one (1) option remaining.

I'm not sure what you say is correct, but you sure sound like you know what you are talking about, which is good enough for me.....

[Brutus]

This is his 9th season of pro ball! You'd have to eliminate 4 seasons to make it count as his 5th. His first season (2003) can be eliminated for that rookie ball reason (btw, from that link click on 'Minors' to see his full Minor League record); 2009 can be eliminated on the less than 60 days at the beginning of the season rule; 2010 can be eliminated because of the less than 90 days at the end of a season stipulation. That's only 3 years...all his other seasons qualify under the rule as 'professional baseball', making this his 6th season under the rule. That means he has no options. Sorry. :dunno:

Your understanding of the number of professional seasons appears to be correct. However, it should be noted that if all three options are used in the first five seasons, a fourth can be used at any point in the player's career regardless of being outside of those five years.

So let's say the three options are used, qualifying the player for a fourth option. Technically, the player could be optioned 10 years later by his club (though by then the player would have the right to refuse such an assignment as once a player hits five years service time, he can refuse any outright or optional assignment). So that Volquez has six professional seasons under his belt would NOT preclude him from a fourth option at all.

That said, as I posted previously, he still has one of his main three options remaining, so the fourth option rule is moot.

[OnBaseMachine]

Arredondo looked good today. 1-2-3 8th inning against Punto, Pujols, and Holliday in his first major league game since 2009. I really think he's going to prove to be a great signing.

[Brutus]

Arredondo looked good today. 1-2-3 8th inning against Punto, Pujols, and Holliday in his first major league game since 2009. I really think he's going to prove to be a great signing.

I'm extremely excited about his prospects. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, his splitter is filthy and will be extremely tough to hit. If the Reds can get Chapman back to throwing strikes, the pen could be very, very good this year.

[reds44]

How hard was he throwing?

/doesntreallymatterbutiwannaknowanyway

[Sea Ray]

I'm extremely excited about his prospects. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, his splitter is filthy and will be extremely tough to hit. If the Reds can get Chapman back to throwing strikes, the pen could be very, very good this year.

I'm prepared to go to war without Chapman. If we get him back this year that's great but he was signed to be a starter and not in 2011. I'll take my chances with Jordan Smith if Chapman isn't ready yet. We don't have to have Chapman to win in 2011

[Big Klu]

How hard was he throwing?

/doesntreallymatterbutiwannaknowanyway

Fastball was in the 90-92 mph range, but it seemed like a heavy fastball.

[WebScorpion]

This is not correct for a few reasons.

To begin with, he did not use an option in 2005. According to transaction history, his contract was first purchased by the Rangers late in 2005 (i.e. added to the 40-man roster--on August 30, 2005 to be precise). Since he spent the last month of the season with the Rangers, he was not charged an option in 2005 as his time in the minors prior to August 30 were not on optional assignment, as he was not yet on the 40-man roster.

He then used options in 2006 and 2007 with the rangers. That means he had one (1) remaining when coming to the Reds.

Last year on August 31, the Reds used that option to assign him to Dayton. However, he spent only 8 days on optional assignment before being recalled (September 7). Since it was less than the allowed 20 days, that means his third option was not used. By this, I mean the ML rule on optional assignments is that any optional assignments in aggregate during the course of the year that total less than 20 days mean the "option" does not get used.

Thusly, Volquez still has one (1) option remaining.

(edited for further clarity)
HA! I hadn't even considered that 2005 wouldn't be an option year. Thanks for the clarification.:thumbup: