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TeamBoone
02-24-2011, 09:06 PM
The press often prints stuff overheard in the clubhouse, often out of context. My personal opinion is that clubhouse chatter should NOT be open to the public. They (whomever makes these decisions) give the press way to much time in clubhouse before and after games. Players should be able to say what they want in the PRIVACY of their place of work... it sucks that they can't.

And, for what it's worth, right or wrong... Hal does this all the time. He's one of the biggest offenders. BTW, I thought he retired.

REDREAD
02-24-2011, 09:14 PM
Personally, I think it's a shame that Hal sunk so low. I guess he feels the need to do this stuff to stay relevant, but it's sad.

The players were super accomodating to him when he was losing his vision (or was it his hearing, I can't recall).. They've been very good to him over his career. He shouldn't be looking for crap like this to print. To me, it doesn't really matter if Gomes celebrated or not.

Makes me glad that I don't have some guy in the cube next to me blogging about everything I say at work.

Eric_the_Red
02-24-2011, 09:21 PM
Is he celebrating the fact the Cards do not have to face Votto when playing the Reds? Or is he celebrating that fact that Votto is out due to depression. These are completely opposite sides and make all the difference in how I would view Chris Carpenter in this instance.

If not for the depression, they would be facing Votto. So, they would be celebrating the fact that he is out because of depression. I don't see how they are completely different.

I don't mind if a group of students celebrate getting out of a test because their teacher is ill with the flu and will be back the next day. I would have a different opinion if the class celebrated a more serious (but not life threatening or permanently altering) illness that forced the teacher out for the rest of the year.

I know injuries are part of the game. I'm not saying other teams should cry and send get well cards. But don't celebrate when one of your peers can't do his job that he loves for at least a year.

The injury increases the Reds odds of making the post-season. Fine. But let's save the celebration until they actually do earn that spot. Celebrate your accomplishment, not someone else's pain that makes your accomplishment easier.

Unassisted
02-24-2011, 09:43 PM
This just isn't the truth. Hal isn't just a "blogger," he's a Hall of Fame beat man. He's not working for the National Enquirer.

I'm not sure if you were being literal here or bemoaning Hal's current status. I was being literal. Literally, he is a blogger now, not a beat writer.

From the byline on his blog:

Hall of Fame baseball writer Hal McCoy has retired from the Dayton Daily News after covering the Cincinnati Reds for 37 years. Hal's blog, though, will continue to be a must-read for Reds fans.The name of the game in blogging is clicks, not sportswriting awards. If the DDN paid his travel expenses, Hal needs to pay them back with clicks. It's a paradigm shift for Hal and we need to be resigned to the notion that his "product" will be different.

Always Red
02-24-2011, 10:04 PM
I'm not sure if you were being literal here or bemoaning Hal's current status. I was being literal. Literally, he is a blogger now, not a beat writer.


Hate to see Hal get kicked under the bus on this. Gomes has gone into major damage control, and McCoy is trying to help him with it by his statements today.

Hal is not a blogger, he is not a senile old man who heard something incorrectly and reported it to the world. He retired from the DDN because they could no longer afford to pay for a Reds beat writer. It's true he is blind, but his hearing is just fine. I'm 50 years old and have spent seemingly my entire life reading McCoy write about the Reds (whom he loves), so I feel some need to defend him on this.

Like Tony LaRussa (never thought I would say that :D) I don't think Jonny Gomes meant anything malicious at all by his comments. I think this episode is mostly over at this point, but seeing so many posts here calling McCoy a SNITCH really bothers me. The Reds have never paid McCoy a single dime, yet how many other "bloggers" do they allow in their clubhouse? The organization and players have huge respect for the man.

I don't know, times are changing. Maybe it's time for Hal to sit in that basement in Dayton with the dogs and hang up his pencil and pad. Maybe, as Randy said, it's time to not allow any media in the clubhouse at all. We live in a time now where everything gets reported; gone are the days when a President Kennedy can bed whomever he wants, all the press knows about it and it all goes unreported. And the rest of us find out 40 years later.

Where does the line get drawn? In New York, an episode like this would be a quaint non issue- the media is very aggressive about reporting everything, either positive or negative, and the athletes realize that their actions are on the record. I have never felt like an independent beat writer (like John Fay is) should be a cheerleader for the team. I love hearing the good and the not so good especially from men who travel throughout the season with the team and are not paid to blow smoke up our skirts. In other words, I like to hear the truth, not some massaged version of what someone else wants me to hear. To me, a guy like Mark Sheldon (who is a very good writer) is suspect because he is paid by the Reds, via MLB.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 11:47 PM
If this had been prior to the start of last season, and Berkman was somehow playing 1b for the Cards, then I would have worried. however his bat has slowed ton a ton, and he's not going to cut it in the outfield. perhaps Berkman will be different, but I remember watching Junior's bat slow down to the same extent, and it never came close to speeding back up. He had to cheat on so many fastballs, he could lay off the breaking stuff. I have a feeling Lance will be the same way with the bat, and even worse playing RF.

I agree but I'm thinking that maybe that when StL was looking for additions, they went after guys with a history of hitting well against the Reds. Could just be coincidence.

Blitz Dorsey
02-25-2011, 01:01 AM
Hate to see Hal get kicked under the bus on this. Gomes has gone into major damage control, and McCoy is trying to help him with it by his statements today.

Hal is not a blogger, he is not a senile old man who heard something incorrectly and reported it to the world. He retired from the DDN because they could no longer afford to pay for a Reds beat writer. It's true he is blind, but his hearing is just fine. I'm 50 years old and have spent seemingly my entire life reading McCoy write about the Reds (whom he loves), so I feel some need to defend him on this.

Like Tony LaRussa (never thought I would say that :D) I don't think Jonny Gomes meant anything malicious at all by his comments. I think this episode is mostly over at this point, but seeing so many posts here calling McCoy a SNITCH really bothers me. The Reds have never paid McCoy a single dime, yet how many other "bloggers" do they allow in their clubhouse? The organization and players have huge respect for the man.

I don't know, times are changing. Maybe it's time for Hal to sit in that basement in Dayton with the dogs and hang up his pencil and pad. Maybe, as Randy said, it's time to not allow any media in the clubhouse at all. We live in a time now where everything gets reported; gone are the days when a President Kennedy can bed whomever he wants, all the press knows about it and it all goes unreported. And the rest of us find out 40 years later.

Where does the line get drawn? In New York, an episode like this would be a quaint non issue- the media is very aggressive about reporting everything, either positive or negative, and the athletes realize that their actions are on the record. I have never felt like an independent beat writer (like John Fay is) should be a cheerleader for the team. I love hearing the good and the not so good especially from men who travel throughout the season with the team and are not paid to blow smoke up our skirts. In other words, I like to hear the truth, not some massaged version of what someone else wants me to hear. To me, a guy like Mark Sheldon (who is a very good writer) is suspect because he is paid by the Reds, via MLB.

This is a really good post. (And I've been critical of Hal in this particular instance.)

remdog
02-25-2011, 01:32 AM
If Gomes said it then he deserves to be drilled. Sorry folks. If it was one of the Reds players and a Cardinal said it we would expect one of the Reds starters to settle it.

Totally agree.

Rem

fugowitribe
02-25-2011, 03:31 AM
The only thing sad about this injury is that the name of the guy wasn't Chris Carpenter. You never hope for guys to get hurt, but I'll never hope for a Cardinal to be healthy either.

reds44
02-25-2011, 04:23 AM
Has anybody said Gomes doesn't deserved to be drilled?

lollipopcurve
02-25-2011, 10:00 AM
Has anybody said Gomes doesn't deserved to be drilled?

I'll say it.

Just not that big a deal.

Chip R
02-25-2011, 10:04 AM
I'll say it.

Just not that big a deal.

I agree but if he gets drilled, he gets drilled. He takes his base and we move on.

cumberlandreds
02-25-2011, 10:14 AM
Seems like Jonny is going on a damage control tour. I heard he'll be on The View tomorrow morning.

Then onto Oprah. :)

The only thing is that Gomes should know that's bad karma in taking glee from anothers injury.

OesterPoster
02-25-2011, 10:15 AM
I agree but if he gets drilled, he gets drilled. He takes his base and we move on.

Hopefully the bases are loaded for every one of his ABs against the Cards. :D

lollipopcurve
02-25-2011, 10:18 AM
I agree but if he gets drilled, he gets drilled. He takes his base and we move on.

It would depend on where the pitch was.

Chip R
02-25-2011, 11:48 AM
BP's take

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13056

westofyou
02-25-2011, 12:14 PM
BP's take

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13056He had me until he said ... Brewers

Chip R
02-25-2011, 12:22 PM
He had me until he said ... Brewers

Yeah but he's a Brewers fan.

Roy Tucker
02-25-2011, 01:06 PM
Hey, I think Gomes ought to tap Yadier Molina's shinguard with his bat in his first AB against the Cards. That ought to get the ball rolling.

;)

RedsBaron
02-25-2011, 01:14 PM
Hey, I think Gomes ought to tap Yadier Molina's shinguard with his bat in his first AB against the Cards. That ought to get the ball rolling.

;)

Good idea! :thumbup: Certainly nothing could go wrong with such a friendly gesture. Gomes might even win the Nobel Peace Prize.

westofyou
02-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Yeah but he's a Brewers fan.

I think they have an operation for that.

bucksfan2
02-25-2011, 01:22 PM
I think they have an operation for that.

Aren't they trying to make that illegal in San Francisco?

westofyou
02-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Aren't they trying to make that illegal in San Francisco?

zing....

Brutus
02-25-2011, 01:55 PM
Aren't they trying to make that illegal in San Francisco?

That was smooth.

Well played.

VR
02-25-2011, 02:48 PM
This thread should serve as a good example that we are all ready for baseball to actually start being played. :)

kpresidente
02-25-2011, 03:04 PM
Thanks for the support, gang. Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

Please, allow me to clear up any confusion. It's very simple; public life vs. private life. As long as the injury mainly affects their baseball career, and isn't significant or lasting to their personal well-being outside of baseball, you're in the clear for celebration. Thus, Wainwright's injury is fair game, Votto's depression not fair game.

That's the price of fame.

Blitz Dorsey
02-25-2011, 03:11 PM
Please, allow me to clear up any confusion. It's very simple. Public life vs. private life. As long as the injury mainly affects their baseball career, and isn't significant or lasting to their personal well-being outside of baseball, you're in the clear for celebration. Thus, Wainwright's injury is fair game, Votto's depression not fair game.

Exactly. I didn't know it was all that complicated to comprehend. Comparing a millionaire pitcher getting an elbow injury that prevents him from playing a kid's game for one year isn't exactly the same thing as someone learning they have terminal cancer. Glad we could all make EricTheRed understand the situation better. For example: When Darryl Kile died in the summer of '02, I'm pretty sure there weren't any Reds fans happy about it.

Are we going to start feeling sorry for pitchers who have to miss a start or two because of a blister on their finger too? Give me a break. Injuries happen in sports and as long as it's not a career-ending/life-threatening situation, there is nothing wrong with a fan of an opposing team not shedding a tear about the situation. No one is shooting Adam Wainwright's dog. The guy is just not going to get a chance to play baseball for a year, while getting paid $9 million to rehab and chill at home with his family. Wow, what a rough life. I really feel for that guy.

westofyou
02-25-2011, 03:17 PM
I keep hearing "Kids Game"

But in reality it's a billion dollar business.

Brutus
02-25-2011, 03:37 PM
I keep hearing "Kids Game"

But in reality it's a billion dollar business.

Nickolodeon is a network for kids programming, and it's a billion dollar business.

westofyou
02-25-2011, 03:40 PM
Nickolodeon is a network for kids programming, and it's a billion dollar business.

Right, but if Diego pulls a hammy it doesn't mean that another show is going to end up with better numbers at the end of the season.

Brutus
02-25-2011, 03:43 PM
Right, but if Diego pulls a hammy it doesn't mean that another show is going to end up with better numbers at the end of the season.

Fair enough, but what if Spongebob tears a ligament... would Plankton celebrate?

Quatitos
02-25-2011, 03:47 PM
Right, but if Diego pulls a hammy it doesn't mean that another show is going to end up with better numbers at the end of the season.

I think that the networks ratings might drop by having to replace Diego with a replacement level program ;)

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

LoganBuck
02-25-2011, 05:00 PM
I think that the networks ratings might drop by having to replace Diego with a replacement level program ;)

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Probably just try and force them to watch the Wiggles instead.

Griffey012
02-25-2011, 07:03 PM
If not for the depression, they would be facing Votto. So, they would be celebrating the fact that he is out because of depression. I don't see how they are completely different.

I don't mind if a group of students celebrate getting out of a test because their teacher is ill with the flu and will be back the next day. I would have a different opinion if the class celebrated a more serious (but not life threatening or permanently altering) illness that forced the teacher out for the rest of the year.

I know injuries are part of the game. I'm not saying other teams should cry and send get well cards. But don't celebrate when one of your peers can't do his job that he loves for at least a year.

The injury increases the Reds odds of making the post-season. Fine. But let's save the celebration until they actually do earn that spot. Celebrate your accomplishment, not someone else's pain that makes your accomplishment easier.

That is simply not true, they are celebrating because Votto is out, gone, not playing, not on the Reds, or for whatever reason. They are celebrating because he is no playing. Not because of the reason behind it.

You logical argument is because B is a direct result of A and C is a direct result of B than C is a direct result of A. That logic is the exact logic used when someone says "The Bengals beat the Chargers who beat the Patriots, so the Bengals are better than the Patriots."

In a nutshell celebrating a player will not be playing against your for a certain team is independent of stopping low enough to celebrate a player being hurt, depressed, etc.

RedsManRick
02-25-2011, 08:19 PM
Please, allow me to clear up any confusion. It's very simple; public life vs. private life. As long as the injury mainly affects their baseball career, and isn't significant or lasting to their personal well-being outside of baseball, you're in the clear for celebration. Thus, Wainwright's injury is fair game, Votto's depression not fair game.

That's the price of fame.

I would argue that personal misfortune is personal misfortune -- personal vs. private is irrelevant. For me, the distinction to be made is player vs. team.

Gomes was not happy that Wainwright the person suffered an injury. Celebrating a person's misfortunte is schadenfreude and generally looked down upon as mean-spirited.

But Gomes was not happy because he disliked Wainwright and thought him to be deserving of pain and misfortunate. Rather, Gomes was celebrating that the Cardinals, as a team, were now less of a threat to the Reds and that he wouldn't have to face one of the toughest pitchers in the league.

If Wainwright had been traded to the American League, Gomes' reaction likely would have been very similar. The reaction was not about injury and pain, but competitive advantage. So long as it occured within the confines of the Reds locker room, I really see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

edabbs44
02-25-2011, 09:23 PM
I would argue that personal misfortune is personal misfortune -- personal vs. private is irrelevant. For me, the distinction to be made is player vs. team.

Gomes was not happy that Wainwright the person suffered an injury. Celebrating a person's misfortunte is schadenfreude and generally looked down upon as mean-spirited.

But Gomes was not happy because he disliked Wainwright and thought him to be deserving of pain and misfortunate. Rather, Gomes was celebrating that the Cardinals, as a team, were now less of a threat to the Reds and that he wouldn't have to face one of the toughest pitchers in the league.

If Wainwright had been traded to the American League, Gomes' reaction likely would have been very similar. The reaction was not about injury and pain, but competitive advantage. So long as it occured within the confines of the Reds locker room, I really see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

But this is where I would disagree from the personal vs private camp. If Wainwright contracted a disease while on vacation in Bora Bora and was out for the season plus while being bed ridden, I'd find it difficult to celebrate because the Cards became less of a threat. Especially celebration from a Reds player.

I agree generally with your premise but there is a line where you shouldn't be celebrating. For me, it is where the situation changes from sports related to life related. It might not be black and white and easily definable, but you know when the line is crossed .

MikeThierry
02-25-2011, 10:47 PM
Gomes came onto a local station in St. Louis and explained everything. I admire him for that and give him props for owning up to it. I have a lot more respect for him now.

I actually have more problem with what Dusty Baker said than anything Gomes said.

Brutus
02-25-2011, 10:51 PM
I actually have more problem with what Dusty Baker said than anything Gomes said.

At least you have a taste what it's like to wear the shoe on the other foot. Remember, folks here have to deal with Tony LaRussa's comments on an annual basis :0

MikeThierry
02-25-2011, 10:56 PM
At least you have a taste what it's like to wear the shoe on the other foot. Remember, folks here have to deal with Tony LaRussa's comments on an annual basis :0


Yeah, LaRussa is a bit overprotective of his players and does go off on the media at times. That said, some of the questions that the media asks are simply just stupid.

Blitz Dorsey
02-26-2011, 02:45 AM
I keep hearing "Kids Game"

But in reality it's a billion dollar business.

So now we're supposed to feel sorry for the rich owner(s) of the Cardinals? That's even more absurd.

Griffey012
02-26-2011, 03:31 AM
That is simply not true, they are celebrating because Votto is out, gone, not playing, not on the Reds, or for whatever reason. They are celebrating because he is not playing. Not because of the reason behind it.

Your logical argument is because B is a direct result of A and C is a direct result of B than C is a direct result of A. That logic is the exact logic used when someone says "The Bengals beat the Chargers who beat the Patriots, so the Bengals are better than the Patriots."

In a nutshell, celebrating a player that will not be playing for a certain team is independent of stepping low enough to celebrate a player being hurt, depressed, etc.

I am sorry for the worst grammar of my life.

Spitball
03-16-2011, 12:17 AM
Didn't realize that the Cardinals had signed Ian Snell. Dave Duncan already has his reclamation project in house.

Snell has always been a player that had the arm, but always seemed to be looking for the command to move forward with his career. A Homer Bailey if you will. A guy with the talent but his biggest problem was upstairs. Dave Duncan may be just what he needs.

I was surprised to see Snell retired at age 29 today.