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Redsfan320
02-23-2011, 09:34 AM
Per Derrick Goold (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_141e8434-3f58-11e0-b886-00127992bc8b.html)

Possible TJ surgery. I would never wish for someone to get hurt... but If Waino's out, the Cards are screwed, IMO. I didn't think they would do great this year anyway, this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

320

Caveat Emperor
02-23-2011, 09:39 AM
Hate to see this happen to one of the game's best pitchers -- hopefully it won't mean the kinfe, but even if it does, TJ isn't the career killer it used to be. I expect someone as talented as Wainwright to be back sooner rather than later.

redsfan30
02-23-2011, 09:40 AM
Interesting development for sure....

medford
02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
well sooner won't be until next season at the earliest. Interesting note there at the end about his contract. Obviously the Cards could take him off the DL (assuming he does go under the knife) in september and park him at the end of the bench as he continues his re-hab, but $21 mil for 2 seasons when he may not even be able to pitch more than half of next year would be a steep price to pay. As talented as Waino is, I'd have to consider picking it up w/ an eye towards an extension.

Heath
02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
I'm sure Dave Duncan will find a scrap-heap project and they'll win 20 this year.

lollipopcurve
02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
More clouds on the post-2011 horizon for the Cards.

Plus Plus
02-23-2011, 09:57 AM
From Rotoworld.com...


Cardinals officials believe Adam Wainwright will likely need Tommy John surgery.

What a shame. We won't know anything definitive until later today, but baseball could be without one of the game's best pitchers for at least the next year. Wainwright, 29, has finished in the top three of the NL Cy Young balloting in each of the past two seasons. The Cardinals will find it very hard to stay in contention without him.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 10:05 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

edabbs44
02-23-2011, 10:05 AM
WOW....

And, on a related topic


I'm sure Dave Duncan will find a scrap-heap project and they'll win 20 this year.




According to Buster Olney of ESPN.com, early speculation among rival executives has the Cardinals going after Kevin Millwood.

And with Adam Wainwright possibly headed for Tommy John surgery due to a "significant injury" to his right elbow, this appears to be a pretty good fit. Millwood, 36, posted a 5.10 ERA over 31 starts with the Orioles last season, but would likely benefit with a move to the National League and the pitcher-friendly Busch Stadium. He's no Wainwright, but would at least chew up some innings.

edabbs44
02-23-2011, 10:06 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

What are Milwaukee's?

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 10:06 AM
What are Milwaukee's?

2.5/1

mbgrayson
02-23-2011, 10:08 AM
How will Chris Carpenter explain this to his son?

bucksfan2
02-23-2011, 10:09 AM
While its not nice to root for injury, I can't shed a tear if St. Louis loses one of its best players for the season. This puts the Cards in a very precarious situation and one the verge of implosion before the season starts.

What an offseason for the Cards. Pujols will enter FA and the Cards know they can't afford to pay him what other teams can. Now their best pitcher looks to be shelved for the entire season.

Phhhl
02-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Didn't Wainright have some "minor" elbow issues towards the end of last season. I remember him either missing a start, or the Cardinals thinking about shutting him down after the Reds took the big lead or something... With a commodity like that, I am sure they took an MRI. Just goes to show how fragile an arm can be. Big, strong kid, doesn't seem like a max effort pitcher... I can't feel good about something like this, even if it possibly benefits the rest of the division. You always want to beat the best.

lollipopcurve
02-23-2011, 10:22 AM
I can't feel good about something like this, even if it possibly benefits the rest of the division. You always want to beat the best.

Yeah, but I wouldn't feel bad either. Injuries are a part of the game.

bucksfan2
02-23-2011, 10:23 AM
Didn't Wainright have some "minor" elbow issues towards the end of last season. I remember him either missing a start, or the Cardinals thinking about shutting him down after the Reds took the big lead or something... With a commodity like that, I am sure they took an MRI. Just goes to show how fragile an arm can be. Big, strong kid, doesn't seem like a max effort pitcher... I can't feel good about something like this, even if it possibly benefits the rest of the division. You always want to beat the best.

It was a sore/tight forearm. Apparently that is a symptom of elbow problems and a precursor to TJ surgery.

medford
02-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Didn't Wainright have some "minor" elbow issues towards the end of last season. I remember him either missing a start, or the Cardinals thinking about shutting him down after the Reds took the big lead or something... With a commodity like that, I am sure they took an MRI. Just goes to show how fragile an arm can be. Big, strong kid, doesn't seem like a max effort pitcher... I can't feel good about something like this, even if it possibly benefits the rest of the division. You always want to beat the best.

they shut him down for his last start, and checked his elbow. It past test both at the end of last year, and a few weeks back. He partially tore in back in 2004, but I don't think he's gone under TJS. the Cards GM seems to think it was just a matter of time before his elbow gave out, given the previous injury. I guess we'll know this afternoon if he's out for the year, or if they're going to shut him down for some time period and see if it can't heal on its own and have him back in St Louis at some point this season.

WVRed
02-23-2011, 10:29 AM
How will Chris Carpenter explain this to his son?

Beat me to it. :(

Blitz Dorsey
02-23-2011, 10:31 AM
Wow. This is huge news and would crush the Cardinals' chances. And I thought it would be Carpenter that would have an injury-marred year.

edabbs44
02-23-2011, 10:33 AM
Yeah, but I wouldn't feel bad either. Injuries are a part of the game.

Feel the same way. This is the risk you take when you put all your chips into 4 baskets. Cincy's staff is much deeper and could weather a blow like this much better. Where the Reds's staff is built for the long haul, the Cards is built for the short series. Here's one reason why.

Tommyjohn25
02-23-2011, 10:35 AM
No sympathy from me. I have nothing against Adam Wainwright, but I don't feel bad for the Cards at all. The Reds went all last year without one of their best SP's and still won the division convincingly. Deal with it. If they can't deal with it, then maybe they shouldn't have sold their souls (depth, money) for players like Matt Holliday, Kyle Lohse, and Jake Westbrook.

Tommyjohn25
02-23-2011, 10:36 AM
Wow. This is huge news and would crush the Cardinals' chances. And I thought it would be Carpenter that would have an injury-marred year.

I'd say that still has a decent chance of happening. Larussa rode those guys AWFULLY hard last year. Again, that's what happens when you don't have depth.

membengal
02-23-2011, 10:42 AM
I am w/ tj25 and edabbs on this. I sure don't feel bad about it. Reds dealt w/ it in 2008 and 2009 w/ volquez. Injuries happen to pitchers. If cards don't have depth to deal w/ it, that's on their organization.

camisadelgolf
02-23-2011, 10:42 AM
Because we're mostly biased against him, I think it's easy to take Wainwright's talent for granted. Not only is he one of the game's best pitchers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wainwad01.shtml), but he does all the little things well, too. The Cardinals would sorely miss him. And if anyone's wondering, he's guaranteed $9MM for next year, and there's a team option for $12MM in 2013.

medford
02-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Wow. This is huge news and would crush the Cardinals' chances. And I thought it would be Carpenter that would have an injury-marred year.

I still have a feeling that's going to happen.

And it wouldn't cheapen a division title in the least. Its sports, injuries happen. The wheel of Labrum tears could hit the Reds next week, and I doubt anyone is going to feel too sorry for us.

what I find interesting, is on cards talk, they're complaining about the medical reviews of his elbow a few weeks ago, and at the end of last year revealing nothing, along w/ a few other injury situations and how its just further proof their medical team is inept. I hear the same complaints about the Bengals/Reds medical teams at times. I think it shows, injuries are often tough to diagnose and predict when things "seem" to be working well.

bucksfan2
02-23-2011, 10:45 AM
I'd say that still has a decent chance of happening. Larussa rode those guys AWFULLY hard last year. Again, that's what happens when you don't have depth.

I forgot exactly what Abner LaRussa did last year but didn't he pitch Wainwright on short rest to set up his rotation to face the Reds? I know he rode Carpenter, Wainwright, and Garcia very hard last season. In the end I believe they shut both Wainwright and Garcia down which would have been a fun playoff rotation to watch pitch.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 10:46 AM
I agree with most of what has been said. IF the Reds win the division, this doesn't cheapen it at all. The Cardinals built their team on stars and scrubs basically, while the Reds are a much more well rounded team. A risk the Cardinals took was one of their stars getting hurt, and it's already happened. Give me the more well rounded team 10 out of 10 times.

OesterPoster
02-23-2011, 10:48 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

Reds are still 25-1 to win the World Series, and I have a small chunk down on that already. I think it's worth the investment.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 10:50 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

You could hedge that by betting an equal amount on the Brewers and still come out ahead if either the Reds or Brewers win, if my quick math is right.

Tommyjohn25
02-23-2011, 10:52 AM
I forgot exactly what Abner LaRussa did last year but didn't he pitch Wainwright on short rest to set up his rotation to face the Reds? I know he rode Carpenter, Wainwright, and Garcia very hard last season. In the end I believe they shut both Wainwright and Garcia down which would have been a fun playoff rotation to watch pitch.

I believe all that is accurate. I know he put Wainwright in on short rest for sure. I had a feeling he/they would pay for those actions this year, I just didn't expect it this soon.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 10:55 AM
MLBtraderumors mentions that if Waino finishes 2011 on the DL, his 2012 and 2013 options do not vest.

Benihana
02-23-2011, 10:57 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

Where?

SirFelixCat
02-23-2011, 10:57 AM
I never cheer (for) injury, not even to the Cubs, but can't say that this doesn't help our boys. I hope he comes back healthy next year and just glad, for his sake, it is not a shoulder :thumbup: to it NOT being a shoulder injury.

Benihana
02-23-2011, 10:58 AM
Brewers (and maybe the Cubs) are the Reds chief competition in the Central this year IMO.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 10:58 AM
Where?

You can right now on sportsbook.com. I have a feeling the odds will be adjusted soon...better hurry whereever it is.

Phhhl
02-23-2011, 11:01 AM
Well, I feel bad for Wainright. Not the Cardinals. If you are a fan of the game, you don't like to see one of its' best players get a severe injury. That diminishes the quality of the product on the field, even if so slightly. TJ surgery usually isn't such a big deal anymore, but you never know. I have been a critic of the stars and scrubs approach for a long time and agree with those that say the Cardinals were kind of asking for it.

Benihana
02-23-2011, 11:02 AM
You can right now on sportsbook.com. I have a feeling the odds will be adjusted soon...better hurry whereever it is.

Can you get your money out? Is it legal?

Quatitos
02-23-2011, 11:02 AM
MLBtraderumors mentions that if Waino finishes 2011 on the DL, his 2012 and 2013 options do not vest.
I wonder if the Cards could end up dropping Wainwright to try and afford keeping Albert. It would of course not be in their best interests to let him walk, but if they want to sign Albert they are going to have to make up for his money somewhere, and Wainwright might be that guy now.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 11:03 AM
Can you get your money out? Is it legal?

1. Yes

2. It's a gray area. At least, thats what I keep telling myself.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 11:08 AM
Can you get your money out? Is it legal?

Just my personal experience, but I have had success. The check came overnighted from an out of country location (at no additional charge :confused:). You just have to take certain steps to confirm your identity (I think I had to send them a copy of my DL).

Legally, I read conflicting things...but to my knowledge, for home recreation, it is not enforced at all.

Look into it and make up your mind on your own...I wouldn't put more money into your account than you are willing to lose (It's gambling, duh).

Patrick Bateman
02-23-2011, 11:18 AM
The Reds have had to deal woith yearly injuries to our star players (ie. Griffey every year!).

I didn't prey to the Gods to be better to us for that, and of course, certainly wont for Waino either.

johngalt
02-23-2011, 11:19 AM
How will Chris Carpenter explain this to his son?

Actually, if there's one thing Chris Carpenter can explain to his son, it's Tommy John surgery. :)

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 11:22 AM
What is the best Cardinals board? I'm not gonna say a word I just need some entertaining reading.

medford
02-23-2011, 11:24 AM
google "Cards talk" I don't know that its the best, but its entertaining. I think the actual site is like interact.stlouis.forums...... or something along those lines, but the cards talk should get you there.

RedsManRick
02-23-2011, 11:25 AM
You can right now on sportsbook.com. I have a feeling the odds will be adjusted soon...better hurry whereever it is.

They have:
St Louis Cardinals : +120
Milwaukee Brewers: +250
Cincinnati Reds: +350
Chicago Cubs: +500
Houston Astros: +3500
Pittsburgh Pirates: +10000

I almost want to put 10 bucks on the Pirates...

But yeah, I'd definitely be interested in laying some on the Reds, perhaps with a hedge on Milwaukee. Those Cards odds are ridiculous even before Wainwright.

hebroncougar
02-23-2011, 11:30 AM
Wainwright hit triple digits in pitch counts 23 times last year, and 47 in the past two. That's a lot.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 11:31 AM
google "Cards talk" I don't know that its the best, but its entertaining. I think the actual site is like interact.stlouis.forums...... or something along those lines, but the cards talk should get you there.

http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

I haven't even clicked a thread yet, but at the current time the 3rd thread is "Did Waino injure himself on purpose?" You can't make this stuff up.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 11:33 AM
But yeah, I'd definitely be interested in laying some on the Reds, perhaps with a hedge on Milwaukee. Those Cards odds are ridiculous even before Wainwright.

I made this point a couple of weeks ago. Just doesn't seem right at all.

edabbs44
02-23-2011, 11:51 AM
The real question is, was Wainwright on the Verducci list?

OesterPoster
02-23-2011, 11:58 AM
http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

I haven't even clicked a thread yet, but at the current time the 3rd thread is "Did Waino injure himself on purpose?" You can't make this stuff up.

This is a board I usually check during the season:

http://www.cardsclubhouse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24354

OnBaseMachine
02-23-2011, 12:01 PM
I never root for an injury and wasn't in this case. But as others have said, injuries are part of the game and the Reds have had their fair share over the years. The Reds won the division last season despite Edinson Volquez missing most of the season. Who knows, with a healthy Volquez the Reds may have won a few more games and hosted a playoff series instead of starting out on the road in Philly.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 12:04 PM
Hmmmm.... Reds have a surplus of starting pitching.

I'm sure that neither team would actually do it, but I dream of a Leake for Miller swap.

Jpup
02-23-2011, 12:11 PM
That's just unfortunate. ;)

RedsManRick
02-23-2011, 12:35 PM
I made this point a couple of weeks ago. Just doesn't seem right at all.

Anytime you're dealing with odds that are set based on the expectations of a poorly informed and irrational set of bettors, that's an excellent opportunity for arbitrage.

reds44
02-23-2011, 12:48 PM
How will Chris Carpenter explain this to his son?
Somebody had to say it lol.

Chip R
02-23-2011, 12:51 PM
I don't like hearing this but it does help the Reds chances. Better them than us.

PuffyPig
02-23-2011, 01:07 PM
The reason the Reds beat the Cards last year is becuase we had huge depth in our team (especially the starting rotation) and they did not.

Their depth issue has not been addressed this year.

And losing Waino means they just took a huge dip in depth.

Their current 3B (Freese) is hoping to get to about 100 games this year as he recovers from two major injuries. His back-up (Punto) is out for 2-3 months already.

oneupper
02-23-2011, 01:13 PM
The Cards don't scare me that much anymore.

Caveat Emperor
02-23-2011, 01:30 PM
That's just unfortunate. ;)

It is unfortunate -- I can't see how any baseball fan would enjoy one of the game's best player's being hurt.

Cedric
02-23-2011, 01:38 PM
The reason the Reds beat the Cards last year is becuase we had huge depth in our team (especially the starting rotation) and they did not.

Their depth issue has not been addressed this year.

And losing Waino means they just took a huge dip in depth.

Their current 3B (Freese) is hoping to get to about 100 games this year as he recovers from two major injuries. His back-up (Punto) is out for 2-3 months already.

It really is the truth. The Reds could afford an injury or two and still be in good shape. The Cardinals have no margin for error at all.

edabbs44
02-23-2011, 01:39 PM
It is unfortunate -- I can't see how any baseball fan would enjoy one of the game's best player's being hurt.

"Enjoy" might not be the right word. Generally, I am pro-things that help my team out. At least, those which are part of the game and legal.

Quatitos
02-23-2011, 01:46 PM
It is unfortunate -- I can't see how any baseball fan would enjoy one of the game's best player's being hurt.

I doubt anyone enjoys the fact that Wainwright got hurt, more so the fact that the Reds are in better position to win the division now.

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 01:51 PM
I doubt anyone enjoys the fact that Wainwright got hurt, more so the fact that the Reds are in better position to win the division now.

Exactly. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone, and I don't think it's ever ok to root for an injury to an opposing player, but let's not act like we're not happy about the effect this has on the Reds chances this year.

bucksfan2
02-23-2011, 01:52 PM
It really is the truth. The Reds could afford an injury or two and still be in good shape. The Cardinals have no margin for error at all.

It all depends. The Reds can't afford to see Votto go down. Other than that the addition of Renteria will help at 3b and 2b if there is an injury. The Reds have some serious depth at P witch is never a bad thing.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 01:57 PM
How is Chris Carpenter going to explain this to Albert Pujols?

I think the odds of Pujols returning to the Cards after this season are almost none now.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 02:01 PM
It all depends. The Reds can't afford to see Votto go down. Other than that the addition of Renteria will help at 3b and 2b if there is an injury. The Reds have some serious depth at P witch is never a bad thing.

The Reds, like last year, can call on minor leaguers to fill short term voids due to injury or lack of production, and be okay. Fraizer, Fransisco, Valaika, Alonso, Cozart, can all fill in and not suck. No other team in the division has anything like that.

_Sir_Charles_
02-23-2011, 02:02 PM
This is exactly what I was talking about a while back. With how little depth they have, ANY injury to a starter for them simply DECIMATES them. I picked them to finish 4th in the division...this puts them in the conversation for the 5 spot IMO.

Sea Ray
02-23-2011, 02:15 PM
No reason to shed a tear for the Cardinals. This is part of the game. Did we get any sympathy cards when this happened to our 2011 Opening Day pitcher? Pitching is tenuous at best which is why you gotta love the depth our Reds have right now. Who cares if Leake or Wood pitch every 5th day? If they both don't make it then that means we're in good shape

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 02:36 PM
The Reds odds of winning the division leapt a good bit in my eyes today. I'm happy about that.

I've always respected Wainwright and said so last year. Though I laughed at his "I'm not gonna lose another game this year" promise last season. So I hate to see the guy get hurt.

Should have been you Carpenter.

Chip R
02-23-2011, 02:40 PM
I wonder who LaRussa will blame for this?

reds44
02-23-2011, 02:47 PM
I wonder who LaRussa will blame for this?
Cueto for sure.

CTA513
02-23-2011, 02:47 PM
I wonder who LaRussa will blame for this?

Dusty Baker

:D

Ghosts of 1990
02-23-2011, 03:56 PM
Two names you'll all want to learn a lot sooner now--if you already have not--RHP's Carlos Martinez and Shelby Miller. One of them will get accelerated and get a shot to be in the big leagues, I would guess.

pahster
02-23-2011, 04:01 PM
Two names you'll all want to learn a lot sooner now--if you already have not--RHP's Carlos Martinez and Shelby Miller. One of them will get accelerated and get a shot to be in the big leagues, I would guess.

The same 19 year old Shelby Miller who threw 104 innings last year in A ball? That seems pretty unlikely.

Caveman Techie
02-23-2011, 04:08 PM
So if he does require TJ surgery and he ends the season on the DL, then his contract with the Cardinals is over. Would you want the Reds to sign him for 2012 and 2013?

OesterPoster
02-23-2011, 04:15 PM
I watched Shelby Miller pitch against Dayton in low-A last year. He was good, but he wasn't dominant. To expect him to jump from low-A to the show in less than 1 year? That's pretty crazy.

Dan
02-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Exactly. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone, and I don't think it's ever ok to root for an injury to an opposing player, but let's not act like we're not happy about the effect this has on the Reds chances this year.

Thing is, when your best beats another team's best, that's a VERY satisfying thing. When you beat another team's "not close to as good as we can be" then, that satisfying feeling...not so much.

medford
02-23-2011, 04:16 PM
yes, though hopefully there'd be no room in the inn for a flyer on a guy coming back from injury, however...

someone on the cards forum suggested that if his contract is voided, he still has 1 more year under Cards control w/ arbitration, so he'll be a card either way next year.

My guess, is they take advantage of the situation to extend him out a 3rd year. Waino gets a little more security and time to bounce back from his injury knowing there's a change he misses half of next year, and see's his innings limited. The cards get an extra year of control on the back end. Perhaps something like $6, $8, $10 w/ the last year having a team option on it. Overall value would be slightly more than the current extension is worth, but over 1 more season.

medford
02-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Thing is, when your best beats another team's best, that's a VERY satisfying thing. When you beat another team's "not close to as good as we can be" then, that satisfying feeling...not so much.

true, but my best betting your "not as close to as good as we can be" is way better than my best falling a little short to your best.

Plus its not like the Cards are going to lie down, nor the Brew Crew, not the Cubs, but perhaps the Stros & Pirates. A division championship this season will feel just as good as it did last year, and frankly I don't care if the rest of the division completely falls apart.

LoganBuck
02-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Didn't realize that the Cardinals had signed Ian Snell. Dave Duncan already has his reclamation project in house.

Snell has always been a player that had the arm, but always seemed to be looking for the command to move forward with his career. A Homer Bailey if you will. A guy with the talent but his biggest problem was upstairs. Dave Duncan may be just what he needs.

fearofpopvol1
02-23-2011, 04:36 PM
Hate to see it happen, even against the Cards. I don't root for injuries for any one. As some have pointed out though, it does show how deep the Reds staff is. I feel like the Reds could lose any of their starting pitchers and bounce back pretty easily.

CarolinaRedleg
02-23-2011, 04:47 PM
At least one Redleg isn't shy about what he thinks about this......


"Wainwright's gone, Wainwright's gone, Wainwright's gone," Gomes sang "at the top of his warbly voice" as he entered the Reds' clubhouse on Wednesday morning, Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News writes, adding that the singing was done "joyously."

http://mlb-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/27623786

Joseph
02-23-2011, 04:49 PM
Terrible news for baseball fans in general, but the Reds chances of repeating just grew by a few percent.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 04:50 PM
At least one Redleg isn't shy about what he thinks about this......



http://mlb-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/27623786

Gotta give Hal props on this one...Sheldon wrote the same thing but didn't ID Mr. Gomes as the culprit.

muddie
02-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Didn't realize that the Cardinals had signed Ian Snell. Dave Duncan already has his reclamation project in house.

Snell has always been a player that had the arm, but always seemed to be looking for the command to move forward with his career. A Homer Bailey if you will. A guy with the talent but his biggest problem was upstairs. Dave Duncan may be just what he needs.

This guy has the stuff from what I have seen. Didn't realize he was with St. Louis. In my opinion this is a big 'under the radar' pick up for Cardinals. Seriously, this guy could do some damage this year if Duncan does what he has done for other fringe guys.

Will M
02-23-2011, 05:18 PM
1) I agree with those who point out that the 'stars & scrubs' formula is especially vulnerable to an injury to one of the stars. IMO an additional problem that the Cards have recently is that their 'scrubs' are not nearly as good as in years past. The guys they add on the cheap don't seem to blossom into solid players & their farm system is weak.

2) The 2011 Cards are toast. I already put them behind the Reds by a fairly solid margin. Losing a true TOR starter drops them back even further. Maybe five games (?). So if they were an 86-90 win team now they are an 81-85 win team.

medford
02-23-2011, 05:22 PM
At least one Redleg isn't shy about what he thinks about this......



http://mlb-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/27623786

Probably not something Gomes wanted out there in the media. Even if done kind of jokely, I imagine most guys would frown rejoicing over season ending surgery over a competitor, or at least if another team did it about one of their teammates.

OnBaseMachine
02-23-2011, 05:25 PM
Stupid, stupid comments by Gomes. Focus more on learning how to catch a flyball instead of celebrating an injury. And Hal McCoy is trying to stir crap again. Read Mark Sheldon's account, it's totally different from McCoy's.

osuceltic
02-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Stupid, stupid comments by Gomes. Focus more on learning how to catch a flyball instead of celebrating an injury. And Hal McCoy is trying to stir crap again. Read Mark Sheldon's account, it's totally different from McCoy's.

Lighten up, Francis. He has an arm injury, not a terminal disease. This is professional sports -- it's cutthroat. Gomes isn't the only National League hitter celebrating today.

kbrake
02-23-2011, 05:52 PM
Lighten up, Francis. He has an arm injury, not a terminal disease. This is professional sports -- it's cutthroat. Gomes isn't the only National League hitter celebrating today.

No need to celebrate injuries that could have major impacts on a guys career. I'm sure several players around the league acted like Gomes did but you won't see them in the paper. No idea what Hal was thinking.

I(heart)Freel
02-23-2011, 06:00 PM
Hal was thinking he's a journalist, not a team employee. He writes what he sees and hears unless he agrees to go off the record. Thinking that he has some responsibility to make the Reds look good is misunderstanding journalistic ethics.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Stupid, stupid comments by Gomes. Focus more on learning how to catch a flyball instead of celebrating an injury. And Hal McCoy is trying to stir crap again. Read Mark Sheldon's account, it's totally different from McCoy's.

I don't see any Meaningful difference between the two reports of this incident other than Hal named the culprit.

If the Cardinals read either one, they'd react the same way. Actually naming Gomes, who has a rep as a boisterous fellow, might calm the Cards down a bit. By not naming anyone, Sheldon actually makes the whole team look guilty.

BrooklynRedz
02-23-2011, 06:14 PM
Gomes clarifies (http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2011/02/gomes_on_wainwright.html)

Joseph
02-23-2011, 06:17 PM
Yeah, I have to come down in the side of it being no big deal that Gomes said it. One it's not like Wainright is going to lose his house over being out of work, he's still getting paid.

Sportsmanship is good and great, when its entirely being played for the love of the game. When paychecks are involved, these guys are no longer the 'heroes' we romanticized as kids. They don't have to like each other, they also don't have to hate each other.

Bravo to Gomes I say. He knows he doesn't have to face this guy and his season maybe just got a little bit easier. Say whats in your heart, wear your emotion on your sleeve. You should only be ashamed if its illegal.

kaldaniels
02-23-2011, 06:24 PM
Gomes clarifies ("")

Let me know when someone believes this. :D

Edskin
02-23-2011, 06:27 PM
Three pages and no one has blamed his elbow problems on Dusty yet???

:)

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 06:28 PM
I don't have any problem with what Hal put in the paper. He's a journalist. He reports news. To me, that's news-worthy. I also don't have a problem with Gomes saying it. It's never good to see a guy get hurt, but this increases our chances of repeating. If any of you said you were devastated to read this news, I doubt that to be the case. I wish Wainwright a speedy recovery, but I'm ecstatic he's out, to be totally honest.

Also, the Cards are practically the same team from last year, other than these three things: they replaced Ludwick with Berkman in right, Ryan with Theriot at short, and Wainwright is done for the year. If you ask me, they're worse off than they were last year. And they weren't even good enough last year to win it.

Redlegs
02-23-2011, 06:42 PM
What's the deal with Hal McCoy? Some things should stay off the record.

http://mlb-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/27623786

Brutus
02-23-2011, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure Chris Carpenter will even be able to formulate the words for this one...

Homer Bailey
02-23-2011, 06:44 PM
It's being discussed in the Wainwright thread.

membengal
02-23-2011, 06:49 PM
Huge prolem w/ hal. Again. It was in the clubhouse. Plenty gets said in there not for public consumtion. Could be reds need to tell hal to stay out. That was clearly off-the-record commentary.

reds44
02-23-2011, 07:02 PM
I think the Dusty comment was even more awesome than Gomes singing.

westofyou
02-23-2011, 07:31 PM
He said it, Hal has every right to tell it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Wheelhouse
02-23-2011, 07:40 PM
Ugh. Hal's pairing of Gomes "singing" and Dusty humoring Darren on the phone makes it seem like the whole Reds clubhouse was reveling in a player being injured. Great, Hal.

MikeThierry
02-23-2011, 07:43 PM
I think Gomes did a good job of explaining the context of him "singing". As a Cardinals fan, I am not angry after hearing what Gomes said to clarify his original statement.

lollipopcurve
02-23-2011, 07:48 PM
No problem with McCoy or Gomes here. It was as much a compliment to Wainwright as anything.

It's pro sports, forget the Emily Post sensitivities.

thatcoolguy_22
02-23-2011, 07:54 PM
He said it, Hal has every right to tell it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

The messenger is in charge of framing the context of the statement as well. Hal did a negative service to his readers and team he follows by making it seem that the clubhouse was in a state of euphoria.

MattyHo4Life
02-23-2011, 07:59 PM
The same 19 year old Shelby Miller who threw 104 innings last year in A ball? That seems pretty unlikely.

It better be unlikely. I hope the Cards aren't stupid enough to rush Shelby Miller like that. He isn't anywhere near being ready.

There are other options. I for one would like to see Kyle McClellan get a shot at the rotation again. He is needed in the bullpen, but he may be needed in the rotation more.

MikeThierry
02-23-2011, 08:01 PM
Matty, I see the Cards doing a patchwork 5th starter role like they had last year. I would hate to see McClellan come out of the bullpen. He was arguably one of the best right handed setup guys in baseball last season.

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 08:03 PM
Huge prolem w/ hal. Again. It was in the clubhouse. Plenty gets said in there not for public consumtion. Could be reds need to tell hal to stay out. That was clearly off-the-record commentary.

Hal has been around for decades, and is one of the most well-respected journalists in the sport. I'm sure there is TONS of material he hears that he doesn't print. If Gomes doesn't want it in the newspaper, he should have the common sense to not walk around the clubhouse screaming about it.

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 08:07 PM
The messenger is in charge of framing the context of the statement as well. Hal did a negative service to his readers and team he follows by making it seem that the clubhouse was in a state of euphoria.

I'm sure they WERE in a state of euphoria. I mean, come on. Nobody wants to see a guy get hurt, but on the same hand, one of their chief rivals' BEST pitcher is out for the year. This is their livelihood, it's what they do: win games. Wainwright out, as awful as it is, helps them. I don't think the Cards were shedding any tears for us in 2009 as Volquez went down and Votto was out a while, nor should they have.

westofyou
02-23-2011, 08:11 PM
The messenger is in charge of framing the context of the statement as well. Hal did a negative service to his readers and team he follows by making it seem that the clubhouse was in a state of euphoria.
Of course the messenger is the conduit, and has the responsibility to frame it in a manner that only reflects on those involved, not the fringe outside teh story.

But I've never been that big of a Hal fan myself, my point is if he sees it he can report it.

And think this sort of thing used to be swept under the rug daily, then Ryne Duran punched Ralph Houk... and the world of sports writing changed.

Patrick Bateman
02-23-2011, 08:52 PM
It's a freaking arm injury!

So what!

A million trillion people have it worse.

I'm glad he's injured, he'll recover in a years time. He's not going to die. He's not losing a career. He's missing a year. And I'm glad he is.

MattyHo4Life
02-23-2011, 08:56 PM
Matty, I see the Cards doing a patchwork 5th starter role like they had last year. I would hate to see McClellan come out of the bullpen. He was arguably one of the best right handed setup guys in baseball last season.

Yeah, but McClellan would have won the 5th starter spot in Spring Training last year if Garcia didn't pitch so well. A patchwork 5th starter didn't work out so well last year.

Always Red
02-23-2011, 08:57 PM
Of course the messenger is the conduit, and has the responsibility to frame it in a manner that only reflects on those involved, not the fringe outside teh story.

But I've never been that big of a Hal fan myself, my point is if he sees it he can report it.


Or if Gomes tells Hal that it's off the record, or if Gomes sings his celebration song in those areas of the clubhouse off limits to the press (they do exist) then this is not an issue.

Jonny Gomes is a veteran ballplayer. Hal McCoy is in the stinkin HoF, for Pete's sake. They both know how these things work.

Gomes is to blame for this, and if McCoy sees this in an official capacity and doesn't report it, then he has zero credibility. He's not a hack for the Reds, he's a reporter. The Cincinnati Reds do not pay Hal one thin dime.

membengal
02-23-2011, 09:03 PM
Hal has been around for decades, and is one of the most well-respected journalists in the sport. I'm sure there is TONS of material he hears that he doesn't print. If Gomes doesn't want it in the newspaper, he should have the common sense to not walk around the clubhouse screaming about it.

Bull. If the players have to measure words in the clubhouse, it's no longer a clubhouse. Some things are for the record, some are not. Hal knows the difference. Hal screwed up. Again.

MattyHo4Life
02-23-2011, 09:03 PM
Bravo to Gomes I say. He knows he doesn't have to face this guy and his season maybe just got a little bit easier. Say whats in your heart, wear your emotion on your sleeve. You should only be ashamed if its illegal.

Cardinals players have been ripped to shreds for saying less than Gomes though. Even if it did happen, I don't see the point of printing this.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 09:03 PM
Of course the messenger is the conduit, and has the responsibility to frame it in a manner that only reflects on those involved, not the fringe outside teh story.

But I've never been that big of a Hal fan myself, my point is if he sees it he can report it.

And think this sort of thing used to be swept under the rug daily, then Ryne Duran punched Ralph Houk... and the world of sports writing changed.

What Hal reported was nothing compared to what the NY writer wrote about every day in 1961 during the Maris/Mantle HR race.

MattyHo4Life
02-23-2011, 09:03 PM
Bull. If the players have to measure words in the clubhouse, it's no longer a clubhouse. Some things are for the record, some are not. Hal knows the difference. Hal screwed up. Again.

I agree 100% membengal!

membengal
02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
I agree 100% membengal!

And, matty, sorry for you on the fan side. Blows, I know, to have that dropped on a fanbase at this late date. You have to know that whole parts of me (and most of the NL Central) simply suspect that Duncan will conjure some sort of miracle from his bag of tricks to help cover the loss. Even though it is irrational to think that whatever magic he conjures will come close to covering the whole Wainwright leaves.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
One more point, Sheldon reported the same thing without mentioning Gomes by name. Really no difference, IMO. This is what reporters do.

westofyou
02-23-2011, 09:10 PM
What Hal reported was nothing compared to what the NY writer wrote about every day in 1961 during the Maris/Mantle HR race.
7 dailies will do that to a writer.

wheels
02-23-2011, 09:19 PM
So now we get to see Ian Snell pile up 200 innings of 3.2 era ball, striking out 250.

We get to witness another Dave Duncan Miracle.

Yippee.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 09:37 PM
Bull. If the players have to measure words in the clubhouse, it's no longer a clubhouse. Some things are for the record, some are not. Hal knows the difference. Hal screwed up. Again.

The clubhouse has two areas. One where media is allowed (very small) and one where media is not allowed. Every players knows the consequences of saying something in the former area.

like I said in another post, Sheldon reported the same thing without mentioning Gomes by name. If a reporter hear it, and it's news, it's his job to report it.

Always Red
02-23-2011, 09:57 PM
This thread could also be entitled "Jonny Gomes is an idiot."

MikeThierry
02-23-2011, 10:01 PM
It's a freaking arm injury!

So what!

A million trillion people have it worse.

I'm glad he's injured, he'll recover in a years time. He's not going to die. He's not losing a career. He's missing a year. And I'm glad he is.

So what? Do you not realize that this injury changes the dynamics of the division this year? The Cards will be lucky to end up in 3rd place now, leaving just the Reds and Brewers to battle it out. It makes your teams road to the championship easier. Its much more than just an arm injury.

Always Red
02-23-2011, 10:03 PM
The clubhouse has two areas. One where media is allowed (very small) and one where media is not allowed. Every players knows the consequences of saying something in the former area.

like I said in another post, Sheldon reported the same thing without mentioning Gomes by name. If a reporter hear it, and it's news, it's his job to report it.

This is exactly right- if Gomes tells McCoy it's off the record, or does this in the off limits part of the clubhouse, then it doesn't make the papers at all.

Gomes and McCoy are both grizzled vets who know how this work. Talk in front of a scribe with a notebook in his hands, in the proper place, and it gets reported.

The Reds have never paid Hal McCoy one thin dime- he simply does not work for them. Mark Sheldon works for MLB, and therefore, for the Reds. Big difference in my book.

And I have no problem with Gomes, and what he said, either. Big deal. But Hal McCoy is not to blame.

Jpup
02-23-2011, 10:04 PM
It is unfortunate -- I can't see how any baseball fan would enjoy one of the game's best player's being hurt.


I hate the Cardinals and I really don't care how they lose. I just want them to lose. I really don't want him hurt, but I am glad he won't be pitching. That's the truth and I'm not the only one around here that believes that.

VR
02-23-2011, 10:08 PM
Gomes did well to mention the brotherhood of players, that he wishes no injury on anyone.

That said, if my fiercest competitor in business was going to have a non-serious injury, get a full check, and could come back better than before in a year and a 1/2? Yeah, I'd be humming to.

REDblooded
02-23-2011, 10:09 PM
What is the best Cardinals board? I'm not gonna say a word I just need some entertaining reading.


http://tippingpitchers.com/f7/

This one has its fair share of Reds vitriol...

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 10:13 PM
Bull. If the players have to measure words in the clubhouse, it's no longer a clubhouse. Some things are for the record, some are not. Hal knows the difference. Hal screwed up. Again.

Hal McCoy has a job to do. Period. The clubhouse isn't some holy place, it's a place of work, not only for ballplayers, but for journalists. Hal isn't doing his job if he doesn't report that. Find me 100 journalists, at LEAST 90 of them report that. At least. Guarantee it.

If Gomes says "This is off the record, but man I'm glad that chump is out," then yeah, he shouldn't print it. Otherwise, take it and run with it.

OnBaseMachine
02-23-2011, 10:27 PM
From John Fay:


I heard it. I honestly don’t remember exactly what he sang. I didn’t report it because I generally don’t write what players say aloud or sing in the clubhouse. I only use what I get in interviews.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/02/23/sorting-out-gomes-wainwright/

Exactly! What the players say aloud should be kept in the clubhouse, not printed in the paper. Hal was just trying to stir up a fight, IMO.

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 10:32 PM
From John Fay:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/02/23/sorting-out-gomes-wainwright/

Exactly! What the players say aloud should be kept in the clubhouse, not printed in the paper. Hal was just trying to stir up a fight, IMO.

Maybe this is why Hal McCoy is in the Hall of Fame and John Fay is not? Fay couldn't tell exactly who it was... Hal could. Hal isn't tryingo to start a fight, if you've ever met the man you'd know he isn't much into soap operas, or to getting his name out there. He was reporting. If Gomes is ignorant enough to be yelling out loud so that someone from a distance can hear him, he deserves to have it printed.

With that being said, as I've stated, I don't even have a problem with what Gomes said. I wish Wainwright a speedy recovery, he's a class act and a great pitcher. But do I get some joy in the fact that he isn't on the mound? You bet your bottom dollar. And so does Gomes.

Always Red
02-23-2011, 10:34 PM
hey wait a minute- I thought we didn't care much for Fay around here??

Maybe it's because, as he said "I generally don't write what players say aloud in the clubhouse."

OnBaseMachine
02-23-2011, 10:44 PM
Maybe this is why Hal McCoy is in the Hall of Fame and John Fay is not? Fay couldn't tell exactly who it was... Hal could. Hal isn't tryingo to start a fight, if you've ever met the man you'd know he isn't much into soap operas, or to getting his name out there. He was reporting. If Gomes is ignorant enough to be yelling out loud so that someone from a distance can hear him, he deserves to have it printed.

With that being said, as I've stated, I don't even have a problem with what Gomes said. I wish Wainwright a speedy recovery, he's a class act and a great pitcher. But do I get some joy in the fact that he isn't on the mound? You bet your bottom dollar. And so does Gomes.

If Gomes made those comments to Hal in an interview, sure, print it. But not when he's singing or whatever he was doing. At least two other reporters heard it and decided not to report it. Hal should have done the same.

WVRed
02-23-2011, 10:52 PM
So what? Do you not realize that this injury changes the dynamics of the division this year? The Cards will be lucky to end up in 3rd place now, leaving just the Reds and Brewers to battle it out. It makes your teams road to the championship easier. Its much more than just an arm injury.

I think he was referring to just the "life in general" aspect.

From a baseball standpoint, it sucks for St Louis. I'd rather beat you guys with your best players in the lineup, with Carpenter and Wainwright pitching.

With what Cardinal fans have been through the past ten years with Darryl Kile and Josh Hancock, Wainwright having Tommy John surgery isn't as big a deal. It could be a whole lot worse. That's what I believe was being referred to.

WVRed
02-23-2011, 10:55 PM
Hal McCoy has a job to do. Period. The clubhouse isn't some holy place, it's a place of work, not only for ballplayers, but for journalists. Hal isn't doing his job if he doesn't report that. Find me 100 journalists, at LEAST 90 of them report that. At least. Guarantee it.

If Gomes says "This is off the record, but man I'm glad that chump is out," then yeah, he shouldn't print it. Otherwise, take it and run with it.

I'd like to keep this for record when the Reds play the Cardinals this season and Gomes gets drilled his first pitch sparking another brawl.

McCoy is creating reading material that is probably going to come back to bite the Reds later.

johngalt
02-23-2011, 10:56 PM
Or if Gomes tells Hal that it's off the record, or if Gomes sings his celebration song in those areas of the clubhouse off limits to the press (they do exist) then this is not an issue.

Jonny Gomes is a veteran ballplayer. Hal McCoy is in the stinkin HoF, for Pete's sake. They both know how these things work.

Gomes is to blame for this, and if McCoy sees this in an official capacity and doesn't report it, then he has zero credibility. He's not a hack for the Reds, he's a reporter. The Cincinnati Reds do not pay Hal one thin dime.

The normal etiquette of "how these things work" isn't always doing what Hal did. There's TONS of things reporters hear in the clubhouse and elsewhere that they don't report because there's still an expectation of privacy and/or anonymity about certain things.

REDblooded
02-23-2011, 10:57 PM
I'd like to keep this for record when the Reds play the Cardinals this season and Gomes gets drilled his first pitch sparking another brawl.

McCoy is creating reading material that is probably going to come back to bite the Reds later.


Cards fans in the forum I linked above are already begging that Gomes be drilled in the face...

Stay classy...

KronoRed
02-23-2011, 11:00 PM
I'd like to keep this for record when the Reds play the Cardinals this season and Gomes gets drilled his first pitch sparking another brawl.

McCoy is creating reading material that is probably going to come back to bite the Reds later.

Maybe the Reds players should keep their celebration of an injury to themselves then huh?

I can only imagine the reaction around here if a bench guy for the Cardinals was caught cheering if Cueto or Arroyo were going to be out.

Good for Hal.

cincrazy
02-23-2011, 11:02 PM
If Gomes made those comments to Hal in an interview, sure, print it. But not when he's singing or whatever he was doing. At least two other reporters heard it and decided not to report it. Hal should have done the same.

Sheldon reported it, just didn't name the source.

Also, I don't care that the Cardinals know this. If Gomes gets drilled, take it like a man and move on.

Chip R
02-23-2011, 11:03 PM
I'd like to keep this for record when the Reds play the Cardinals this season and Gomes gets drilled his first pitch sparking another brawl.

McCoy is creating reading material that is probably going to come back to bite the Reds later.

That's fine cause then the Reds will have a baserunner. And it takes two teams to have a brawl.

It was dumb of Gomes to say that but I never thought he was exactly the brightest porchlight on the block either. I took what he said as more relief at not having to face Wainwright than joy. Of course there's a fine line between the two emotions.

As for Hal, I don't have any problem at what he wrote. He doesn't work for the Reds he works for the DDN. He's not obligated to keep things under his hat.

Brutus
02-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Maybe this is why Hal McCoy is in the Hall of Fame and John Fay is not? Fay couldn't tell exactly who it was... Hal could. Hal isn't tryingo to start a fight, if you've ever met the man you'd know he isn't much into soap operas, or to getting his name out there. He was reporting. If Gomes is ignorant enough to be yelling out loud so that someone from a distance can hear him, he deserves to have it printed.

With that being said, as I've stated, I don't even have a problem with what Gomes said. I wish Wainwright a speedy recovery, he's a class act and a great pitcher. But do I get some joy in the fact that he isn't on the mound? You bet your bottom dollar. And so does Gomes.

I disagree on this issue. What happens in the clubhouse generally stays in the clubhouse. There's somewhat of an unwritten rule to that effect. I'm not big on unwritten rules, but I don't think Hal had any business stirring this one up.

Griffey012
02-23-2011, 11:08 PM
No problem with McCoy or Gomes here. It was as much a compliment to Wainwright as anything.

It's pro sports, forget the Emily Post sensitivities.

I agree, being glad your biggest rival just became weaker is does not imply you are glad the guy is hurt. And obviously with Gomes showing some excitement it shows how good Wainwright is.

Let me use another possible example. What if next off-season Albert signs with the Texas Rangers and Arroyo runs around screaming Albert is Gone! Albert is Gone!...would we be looking at it the same way?

Just because Gomes said "Wainwright is gone! Wainwright is gone!" does not mean he is happy that Wainwright needs Tommy John surgery. It just means he is happy the Reds will not have to face Wainwright this season, the Cardinals will not have as strong as a pitching rotation, the Reds will be more likely to win the division, etc. He would have came in shouting the exact same thing if Wainwright decided to abruptly retire, got traded for a group of minor league prospects, or decided he wanted to pursue basketball for a few years ala the reverse Michael Jordan.

I have a ton of respect for Wainwright, I like the guy (unlike another Cards ace), I am not happy to see one of the better pitchers in the league need to go under the knife, but I sure as heck am happy the Reds do not have to face him and that the Cardinals will not be as good, just as I would be in any of the above scenarios.

Patrick Bateman
02-23-2011, 11:24 PM
So what? Do you not realize that this injury changes the dynamics of the division this year? The Cards will be lucky to end up in 3rd place now, leaving just the Reds and Brewers to battle it out. It makes your teams road to the championship easier. Its much more than just an arm injury.

I know?

Hence why I am happy?

Caveat Emperor
02-23-2011, 11:31 PM
I don't understand how anyone can be happy that one of the game's best players suffered a serious injury. I thought, and hoped, that RedsZone and the Reds were better than that.

I'll shed no tears for Gomes getting plunked -- which I fully expect to happen at the first opportunity the Cards will have. He's everything we'd hate and despise if the shoe was on the other foot and someone was making light of an injury to Votto or a Reds player.

Don't blame Hal for Gomes being a moron.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 11:32 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/2/23/2011098/reds-jonny-gomes-thrilled-by-adam-wainwright-news

Rob Neyer's take on the Gomes incident.


Look, Gomes probably should have kept his warbling to himself with reporters hanging around.

But can you blame the guy, really? The moment that ligament in Adam Wainwright's elbow gave up the ghost, the Reds' chances of winning the National League Central got a five- or 10-percent boost.

What, you think professional athletes never take heart when other professional athletes get hurt.

Caveat Emperor
02-23-2011, 11:35 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/2/23/2011098/reds-jonny-gomes-thrilled-by-adam-wainwright-news

Rob Neyer's take on the Gomes incident.

I can and will blame Gomes. It's classless to crow about the competition being injured. We'd rightly crucify any member of the Cardinals who carried on about an injury to Votto or another key Reds player. We should hold Gomes to the exact same standard.

reds44
02-23-2011, 11:37 PM
My takes:

There's no doubt what Gomes said was classes.

There's also no doubt I loved it.

People need to stop acting like Gomes was happy he got cancer or something. He blew out his arm, he'll be fine. He still gets a gazillion dollars this year.

Don't shoot the messenger on this one, Gomes is a grown man and responsible for what comes out of his own mouth.

Even if Gomes didn't say it, Dusty's quote is still pure gold.

OnBaseMachine
02-23-2011, 11:43 PM
From Hal McCoy:


If I had it to do over, I would ignore what I “thought” I heard - as did a couple of other people.



http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/02/23/gomes_says_he_wasnt_singing_ab.html

Ghosts of 1990
02-23-2011, 11:50 PM
I imagine Gomes did sing that, and I think McCoy should have probably not ran with it. You do your own a favor on this one. Hal's been around long enough to know that; lets not lie to ourselves.

TheNext44
02-23-2011, 11:53 PM
From Hal McCoy:



http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/02/23/gomes_says_he_wasnt_singing_ab.html

Hal's regretting that he may not have gotten the quote right, not that he reported it. Getting a quote wrong is a Cardinal sin in journalism.

reds44
02-23-2011, 11:59 PM
Hal's regretting that he may not have gotten the quote right, not that he reported it. Getting a quote wrong is a Cardinal sin in journalism.
No way. "Thought" is in quotes. Hal knows exactly what he heard, he just wishes he ignored it.

Ghosts of 1990
02-24-2011, 12:00 AM
Hal was thinking he's a journalist, not a team employee. He writes what he sees and hears unless he agrees to go off the record. Thinking that he has some responsibility to make the Reds look good is misunderstanding journalistic ethics.

......agree with you, but look at the favors he did Ken Griffey Jr.

Wouldn't print anything but a kind word about Griffey; through all the rough times. He just kept writing shining things. Hal shouldn't have done this. And I do think Gomes was saying it, a lot of these guys were just as Cards guys would if we had a Votto type miss time. Hard to blame them.

Blitz Dorsey
02-24-2011, 12:12 AM
I think Hal's hearing is catching up with his eyesight. You have to be absolutely kidding me.

Hal, don't bite the hand that feeds you, brother.

MattyHo4Life
02-24-2011, 12:15 AM
I think he was referring to just the "life in general" aspect.

From a baseball standpoint, it sucks for St Louis. I'd rather beat you guys with your best players in the lineup, with Carpenter and Wainwright pitching.

With what Cardinal fans have been through the past ten years with Darryl Kile and Josh Hancock, Wainwright having Tommy John surgery isn't as big a deal. It could be a whole lot worse. That's what I believe was being referred to.

Nice post! Maybe I'm more immune to losses more than most Cards fans... I don't know. It didn't bother me one bit when the deadline passed and Pujols still didn't sign an extension. I'm hopefull and optomistic that he will resign with the Cards still, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. When I heard about Wainwright (my favorite Cardinal), sure I was disapointed at losing our Ace and one of the best pitchers in all of baseball, but it isn't the end of the world. Adam will be ok, and so will the Cardinals. I have faith that other players will step up... with the help of Duncan.

MattyHo4Life
02-24-2011, 12:18 AM
I do think Gomes was saying it, a lot of these guys were just as Cards guys would if we had a Votto type miss time. Hard to blame them.

I hope Gomes was the only player saying it. I would hope that most Cardinals players wouldn't say the same thing if it was Votto, and I don't think they would. I would lose respect for any Cardinal that celebrated an injury to any player on a rival team.

Blitz Dorsey
02-24-2011, 12:18 AM
I don't understand how anyone can be happy that one of the game's best players suffered a serious injury. I thought, and hoped, that RedsZone and the Reds were better than that.

No one would be happy if Adam Wainwright contracted cancer or any life-threatening disease. This is just an arm injury that is going to prevent him from playing a kid's game for a year. It's not a life-or-death situation. Wainwright is still going to be a very wealthy man and is (probably) healthy in all the areas that really matter in life.

I don't think any Reds' fan was hoping he would get hurt (we're not talking about Chris Carpenter here ... I kid, I kid) but do you really expect Reds' fans to be sad that Adam Wainwright might have to miss a year of playing a kid's game while still getting paid multi-millions to do so? It helps our playoff chances and Adam Wainwright's quality-of-life is not affected at all. Again, we're not talking about a serious health ailment. The guy has some ligament damage in his elbow. I'm pretty sure he'll still be able to live a happy life. We're not talking about a cancer patient or someone who just learned they have AIDS.

TheNext44
02-24-2011, 12:36 AM
I hope Gomes was the only player saying it. I would hope that most Cardinals players wouldn't say the same thing if it was Votto, and I don't think they would. I would lose respect for any Cardinal that celebrated an injury to any player on a rival team.

I hate to break it to MattyMo, but I can gaurantee you that nearly every Cardinal player in their history has made a comment exactly like Gomes', Becauae nearly every player in baseball history has made such a comment. The only difference is that most of them were smart enough to say it when there were no reporter around to hear it.

It's part of being human. If you're a cars salesman, competing for salesman of the month, and your main competitor, who probably is a friend of yours, gets sick and that increases your chances of winning, you're going to celebrate. I imagine most of us, when not around the competitor or the boss, would be talking to our friends about how great this news is. Some might even sing about it or even do a little dance. I've seen it all the time.

Orenda
02-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Unwise by Gomes if true but it's just confirms that Wainwright is really good.

The thing comes off as a cheap trick to get buzz/ readers IMO. Maybe Hal has lost a step but he can still hit a fat hanging curve-ball.

Tom Servo
02-24-2011, 12:53 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf2clqDqXo1qzujsgo1_500.png

Quatitos
02-24-2011, 12:55 AM
It looks like the Gomes section was removed from Hal's original story (http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/02/23/reds_on_alert_over_loss_of_wai.html). I don't know if thats an admission of hearing it wrong or if it was removed after some orders from hire up, but either way it is intersting.

MattyHo4Life
02-24-2011, 01:05 AM
I hate to break it to MattyMo, but I can gaurantee you that nearly every Cardinal player in their history has made a comment exactly like Gomes', Becauae nearly every player in baseball history has made such a comment. The only difference is that most of them were smart enough to say it when there were no reporter around to hear it.

Competition is one thing. Of course we all want our team to win. I think most players would rather beat their best. You can say all players make these comments, but that is just your opinion. Votto is one Red that I have a lot of respect for. I don't think he would celebrate an injury to Wainwright, but I guess you think he already has.

WebScorpion
02-24-2011, 01:12 AM
I expected the Cards to have injury problems this year, but not this soon. Yikes! :eek: I feel for Wainwright and the Card fans, but I am sooo happy the Reds have such depth. What a luxury...I can't ever remember a team this deep. :beerme:

reds44
02-24-2011, 03:01 AM
I don't understand how anyone can be happy that one of the game's best players suffered a serious injury. I thought, and hoped, that RedsZone and the Reds were better than that.

I'll shed no tears for Gomes getting plunked -- which I fully expect to happen at the first opportunity the Cards will have. He's everything we'd hate and despise if the shoe was on the other foot and someone was making light of an injury to Votto or a Reds player.

Don't blame Hal for Gomes being a moron.
The Reds chances of making the playoffs increased today, and they increased a lot. Their main competitor (along with the Brewers) lost their best starting pitcher for the season.

If being happy about that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

reds44
02-24-2011, 03:03 AM
I hope Gomes was the only player saying it. I would hope that most Cardinals players wouldn't say the same thing if it was Votto, and I don't think they would. I would lose respect for any Cardinal that celebrated an injury to any player on a rival team.
If Votto got hurt tomorrow you are telling me you wouldn't be happy, and every member of the Cardinals wouldn't be happy? Please. Just because Gomes was dumb enough to say it, doesn't change the fact we all were thinking it.

GAC
02-24-2011, 04:34 AM
I just bet on the Reds at 3.5/1 to win the division. Those odds are insane.

I got a co-worker, who has one BIG MOUTH, and loves to rag on the Reds, even though he doesn't even follow baseball, and knows very little about it, who made me two $20 bets.....

- The Reds won't make it to the post-season
- the Reds will have a losing, head-to-head record, vs the Pirates this year.

[the reason for the Pirates bet is because he's a huge Steelers fan, loves the city of Pittsburgh, and takes great joy in to ragging on the cities of Cleveland and Cincy for their losing franchises. So I reminded him that the Pirates have been one of the biggest losers for quite a long time, and haven't finished above .500 since 1992.]

So we'll see what happens.

Ron Madden
02-24-2011, 04:34 AM
I wonder who LaRussa will blame for this?

He has to blame Bob Boone or Adam Dunn doesn't he?

It's been said that those two are to blame for everything wrong in Baseball.

GAC
02-24-2011, 04:40 AM
Bull. If the players have to measure words in the clubhouse, it's no longer a clubhouse. Some things are for the record, some are not. Hal knows the difference. Hal screwed up. Again.


Huge prolem w/ hal. Again. It was in the clubhouse. Plenty gets said in there not for public consumtion. Could be reds need to tell hal to stay out. That was clearly off-the-record commentary.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Ron Madden
02-24-2011, 05:10 AM
Some things are better left unsaid. Hal should know this to be true.

Ron Madden
02-24-2011, 05:18 AM
The messenger is in charge of framing the context of the statement as well. Hal did a negative service to his readers and team he follows by making it seem that the clubhouse was in a state of euphoria.

I agree. Now we have a nasty soap opera to deal with.

mth123
02-24-2011, 05:41 AM
I can and will blame Gomes. It's classless to crow about the competition being injured. We'd rightly crucify any member of the Cardinals who carried on about an injury to Votto or another key Reds player. We should hold Gomes to the exact same standard.

Agree completely. It absolutely helps the Reds, but celebrating it is classless. In General, even though I'm a Reds fan and don't really care much for LaRussa or Carpenter, the Reds have come off as the classless bunch in these off-field matters the last two years IMO.

Wainwright's injury is the second worst thing to happen to the Cards this offseason (The worst, of course, being the decision to keep the worst position player in the NL, Skip Schumaker, around while shipping Ryan off after Theriot was acquired). I had the Cards pegged for 3rd place before the Wainwright injury but thought it was close. Barring somebody unforeseen like Snell or the corpse of Jeff Suppan rising up and giving the Cards 175 Innings of solid below 4.00 ERA pitching, I think they'll have a tough time finishing higher than 3rd. I'd guess this puts them in 4th behind the Cubs as well.

Tough break Matty and Mike. You guys are OK by me. Sorry about your team.

As for the other people celebrating on here. Its bad Karma. If Homer Bailey or Johnny Cueto walks off the mound holding a shoulder, I'll hold you all (and Dusty of course) responsble.;)

membengal
02-24-2011, 05:50 AM
Just not sure why the defense of Hal from some of you.

I have never been in a major league baseball clubhouse. But I am given to understand that the players therein will make a LOT of rather off-color comments and observations about life. Homophobic jokes, comments in graphic detail about the physical attributes of female fans etc., comments about players' wives, comments about whatever. Completely off-the-cuff-, off-color, and generally off-the-normally-mainstream conversational talking points of general society. Because that's kinda the culture in there.

So...should Hal and any other reporter transcribe such exchanges?

Because, I don't think they should. And do. And this kind of clubhouse frivolity falls into that grouping, and Hal knows it. Which is why Hal is already expressing regret. If Hal had said to Gomes, hey Jonny, what of Wainwright, and Gomes did that, by all means, report it. If Gomes was in an area restaurant at a bar doing that, by all means report it. But within the confines of the clubhouse? Whether its a "reporter area" or not, there is NO WAY that it is generally accepted that things said in the confines of clubhouse fun are known to be "on the record" carte blanche. That's just not how it goes down, and I think most of us on here know it. This isn't about the sanctity of reporting, far from it. And if this were someone other than Hal, I suspect they would be told their clubhouse privileges were revoked. As it is, Hal's probably should be for awhile anyway.

membengal
02-24-2011, 05:53 AM
I can and will blame Gomes. It's classless to crow about the competition being injured. We'd rightly crucify any member of the Cardinals who carried on about an injury to Votto or another key Reds player. We should hold Gomes to the exact same standard.

Oh please, CE. This is really a massive over-reaction on your part. Context matters. The fact that it was in a clubhouse, the Reds clubhouse, matters. If Gomes called a press conference to crow about it, classless. If Gomes called Hal over for an interview and crowed about it, classless. If Gomes went to a local watering hole and sang about it at a bar and it got out, classless. But expressing delight in his office, as it were, about the Reds' chances likely improving as against the Cardinals this year? Not classless. Human. And understandable.

And if a Cardinals player reacted similarly about an injury to Grinenke, or Cueto, or Dempster in the confines of their clubhouse and it got out because Joe Strauss forgot about the whole clubhouse thing, I would not "crucify" said player. Silly.

membengal
02-24-2011, 05:54 AM
About to head to work, so if this topic continues to evolve and someone responds to me in specific, please don't think me rude if I don't respond til later (from my posts at the bottom of the previous page), hard to respond in detail from work because only blackberry access there, and long posts are next to impossible.

membengal
02-24-2011, 06:01 AM
The normal etiquette of "how these things work" isn't always doing what Hal did. There's TONS of things reporters hear in the clubhouse and elsewhere that they don't report because there's still an expectation of privacy and/or anonymity about certain things.

This. Making the same point in the Wainwright thread.

Mods: Why are there two threads evolving on this topic?

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 06:04 AM
For those who are saying that Gomes is classless, would your reaction be any different if it were Jay Bruce? Maybe a little?

Ron Madden
02-24-2011, 06:12 AM
For those who are saying that Gomes is classless, would your reaction be any different if it were Jay Bruce? Maybe a little?

No, but I bet your feathers would be ruffled if any player from another club celebrated an injury to a key Reds player in such a manner.

membengal
02-24-2011, 06:16 AM
No, but I bet your feathers would be ruffled if any player from another club celebrated an injury to a key Reds player in such a manner.

Nope. Not if it was in the clubhouse and not for public consumption. As I mentioned last page, context matters. And, edabbs, while I disagree with CE's take, I am 100% sure this isn't a Gomes thing, and he would feel the same way if it had been anyone else on the Reds saying this. I happen to disagree with his take, myself, but I don't think it's a Gomes thing with him at all.

Strikes Out Looking
02-24-2011, 08:01 AM
Changing the topic back to Wainwright -- I've been wondering about this -- if he was suffering some elbow problems last fall, why did they wait until now to do something about it and lose four to six months?

LoganBuck
02-24-2011, 08:10 AM
Just not sure why the defense of Hal from some of you.

I have never been in a major league baseball clubhouse. But I am given to understand that the players therein will make a LOT of rather off-color comments and observations about life. Homophobic jokes, comments in graphic detail about the physical attributes of female fans etc., comments about players' wives, comments about whatever. Completely off-the-cuff-, off-color, and generally off-the-normally-mainstream conversational talking points of general society. Because that's kinda the culture in there.

So...should Hal and any other reporter transcribe such exchanges?

Because, I don't think they should. And do. And this kind of clubhouse frivolity falls into that grouping, and Hal knows it. Which is why Hal is already expressing regret. If Hal had said to Gomes, hey Jonny, what of Wainwright, and Gomes did that, by all means, report it. If Gomes was in an area restaurant at a bar doing that, by all means report it. But within the confines of the clubhouse? Whether its a "reporter area" or not, there is NO WAY that it is generally accepted that things said in the confines of clubhouse fun are known to be "on the record" carte blanche. That's just not how it goes down, and I think most of us on here know it. This isn't about the sanctity of reporting, far from it. And if this were someone other than Hal, I suspect they would be told their clubhouse privileges were revoked. As it is, Hal's probably should be for awhile anyway.

This.

Hal has been covering baseball since mastodons walked the earth. This wasn't the first time he heard something like this. I would bet that this was the first time he ran to the internet to post something like this. Hal knows better. We can talk about players of today, youth of today, whatever, Hal has been around long enough that he knows the code. If he had waited and just posted something like "The loss of Wainwright was not lost on the Reds, with a range of emotions." We would have gotten the message. To call a player out like this was pathetic.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 08:14 AM
Nope. Not if it was in the clubhouse and not for public consumption. As I mentioned last page, context matters. And, edabbs, while I disagree with CE's take, I am 100% sure this isn't a Gomes thing, and he would feel the same way if it had been anyone else on the Reds saying this. I happen to disagree with his take, myself, but I don't think it's a Gomes thing with him at all.

I'm not singling out CE but there was at least one comment on here regarding Gomes learning how to catch a flyball, or something to that effect. So was curious as to what the general feeling of Gomes on here had to do with others' positions.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 08:14 AM
Changing the topic back to Wainwright -- I've been wondering about this -- if he was suffering some elbow problems last fall, why did they wait until now to do something about it and lose four to six months?

I thought they did. I guess they either botched the exam or something changed since then.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 08:17 AM
No, but I bet your feathers would be ruffled if any player from another club celebrated an injury to a key Reds player in such a manner.

Honestly it wouldn't bother me all that much. I'd be way more bummed that it happened and then move on.

Plus, we all know how reliable a lot of these reports can be. Knee jerk reactions to "instant news" from Twitter or blogs have been made pretty hastily in some instances, especially here.

GoReds
02-24-2011, 08:24 AM
I thought they did. I guess they either botched the exam or something changed since then.

I can't imagine the between the time they last examined Wainwright and his arrival in spring training that he didn't pick up a baseball at some point.

Even if he didn't, these guys don't hibernate in the winter waiting for baseball to arrive - they have lives to live. Could be he hurt himself bowling, hunting or just has a really crappy mattress.

lollipopcurve
02-24-2011, 09:06 AM
Gawd. The etiquette police really have those fingers wagging now.

These are baseball players. They play to beat each other. They live in an environment of competition. They are not diplomats trying to negotiate and solve delicate problems. Further, they make millions and millions of dollars (as in the case of Wainwright), even when they miss time because of injury.

Wainwright will be fine in his charmed life.

Meanwhile Gomes is happy because the Reds have a better chance now/he won't have to face Wainwright this year. He's competitive, and does not hide his emotions. As I said before, the fact that he'd be ebullient about it for 3 seconds can be taken as a compliment to Wainwright. To twist his ditty into some kind of deep insensitivity is to take it out of its proper context, IMO.

Now, maybe McCoy should have known better. We'll see if he follows up, as Gomes did, to try to correct all this misinterpretation.

oneupper
02-24-2011, 09:25 AM
When I saw the news here, I thought "YES!". So did Gomes. Big deal.
It's not like Wainwright did a Darryl Kile or something. Like lollipopcurve says, he's still going to collect his paycheck and enjoy a fine retirement even if he doesn't throw another baseball in his life.

This season needs to start soon.

I(heart)Freel
02-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Is this the same John Fay who printed a quote from Scott Rolen upon seeing Jay Bruce in the clubhouse last week, "Brucie, look how rich you are!?"

Hmm.




From John Fay:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/02/23/sorting-out-gomes-wainwright/ (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/02/23/sorting-out-gomes-wainwright/)

Exactly! What the players say aloud should be kept in the clubhouse, not printed in the paper. Hal was just trying to stir up a fight, IMO.

kpresidente
02-24-2011, 09:28 AM
You guys can keep your "classy", I want players that want to win. I'm happy Wainwright's gone and I'm happy Gomes is happy about it.

bucksfan2
02-24-2011, 10:09 AM
You guys can keep your "classy", I want players that want to win. I'm happy Wainwright's gone and I'm happy Gomes is happy about it.

You want to beat the best but injuries are a part of baseball. Every team has to deal with them on a yearly basis. I think every Red just realized that the Cards took a huge hit. Its good for their chances to win the division. That would/should make most players happy. But at the same time I would imagine that most players would feel bad for Wainwright the person because injuries are not fun.

As for Hal the man has been struggling for a couple of years now with the new media. There was a time a few years ago when he took a personal vendetta against Homer Bailey and refused to give in. IMO this is the latest instant of him trying to remain relevant in the new age media.

johngalt
02-24-2011, 10:19 AM
Is this the same John Fay who printed a quote from Scott Rolen upon seeing Jay Bruce in the clubhouse last week, "Brucie, look how rich you are!?"

Hmm.

Those are two completely different situations. The Rolen comment was him joking with a fellow teammate. That's not going to cause an uproar or something they'd care about anyone else knowing was said.

Hoosier Red
02-24-2011, 10:40 AM
I don't think Hal broke any "code." As other's have pointed out Sheldon wrote the same thing but didn't identify Gomes. If the guy who works for the REDS is writing it, then surely we can't fault someone who doesn't write for the Reds to not write it, can we?

I think Hal's backing off, is more of a favor to Gomes than anything. IIRC, he did the same thing with Brandon after the WLB comment last year. He apologized to BP, and Phillips said, "not your fault, I said it."

As for the act, it was classless. That doesn't mean I won't cheer for Gomes, and it's essentially one time where his over the top enthusiasm came back to bite him. I think in general, he's the type of guy I really like to cheer for, but he was in the wrong here.

Hopefully, he'll take his pitch to the ribs, go to first base, and that will be it.

Blitz Dorsey
02-24-2011, 10:42 AM
No one would be happy if Adam Wainwright contracted cancer or any life-threatening disease. This is just an arm injury that is going to prevent him from playing a kid's game for a year. It's not a life-or-death situation. Wainwright is still going to be a very wealthy man and is (probably) healthy in all the areas that really matter in life.

I don't think any Reds' fan was hoping he would get hurt (we're not talking about Chris Carpenter here ... I kid, I kid) but do you really expect Reds' fans to be sad that Adam Wainwright might have to miss a year of playing a kid's game while still getting paid multi-millions to do so? It helps our playoff chances and Adam Wainwright's quality-of-life is not affected at all. Again, we're not talking about a serious health ailment. The guy has some ligament damage in his elbow. I'm pretty sure he'll still be able to live a happy life. We're not talking about a cancer patient or someone who just learned they have AIDS.

gonelong
02-24-2011, 10:48 AM
I am happy that the Reds have gained an advantage over the Cards, but I'm not celebrating the manner in which that occured.

I am not happy that a guy is injured any more than I'd be happy that an artist broke his arm and couldn't paint for a period of time. Anytime something out of someone's control interferes with them pursuing their dreams I am not gonna be happy about it.

On the other hand I am not going to cry over it either. It doesn't (or shouldn't) create a financial issue for the man, and he'll have a chance to resume his dream.

GL

lollipopcurve
02-24-2011, 10:56 AM
It is not unfair in any way that Wainwright got hurt. It is unfortunate for him and his team, but it is not unfair.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 11:03 AM
I am happy that the Reds have gained an advantage over the Cards, but I'm not celebrating the manner in which that occured.

I am not happy that a guy is injured any more than I'd be happy that an artist broke his arm and couldn't paint for a period of time. Anytime something out of someone's control interferes with them pursuing their dreams I am not gonna be happy about it.

On the other hand I am not going to cry over it either. It doesn't (or shouldn't) create a financial issue for the man, and he'll have a chance to resume his dream.

GL


I agree. And since when do we have to cower and shake in our boots at any possible retribution for what one of our guys said? If the Cards want to put that on their bulletin board, that's fine. If they need that extra incentive to get up to play the reigning division champion Reds then something's wrong with them. Will Gomes get hit? Possibly but they also have to remember we have a guy in our bullpen who throws 105 and isn't always sure where it's going. I don't necessarily want guys who continuously trash talk but if Brandon Phillips says he hates the Cards or Joey Votto says he hates the Cubs, so what? Isn't a little honesty in an increasingly PC world a good thing?

CarolinaRedleg
02-24-2011, 11:29 AM
It's official:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6154112

Caveman Techie
02-24-2011, 11:33 AM
Sorry to see one of the greats go down with an injury.

WVRed
02-24-2011, 11:45 AM
No one would be happy if Adam Wainwright contracted cancer or any life-threatening disease. This is just an arm injury that is going to prevent him from playing a kid's game for a year. It's not a life-or-death situation. Wainwright is still going to be a very wealthy man and is (probably) healthy in all the areas that really matter in life.

I don't think any Reds' fan was hoping he would get hurt (we're not talking about Chris Carpenter here ... I kid, I kid) but do you really expect Reds' fans to be sad that Adam Wainwright might have to miss a year of playing a kid's game while still getting paid multi-millions to do so? It helps our playoff chances and Adam Wainwright's quality-of-life is not affected at all. Again, we're not talking about a serious health ailment. The guy has some ligament damage in his elbow. I'm pretty sure he'll still be able to live a happy life. We're not talking about a cancer patient or someone who just learned they have AIDS.

Bingo.

Now if the news was that Wainwright was killed in a car accident or passed away in his sleep and the Reds were celebrating, I (and probably every human being in general) would have a problem with it. It's one thing to celebrate an injury that increases your chances of winning the division.

I have nothing personal against Adam Wainwright and from everything I have read he sounds like a great person. The guy is making between 9-10 million this season and when not rehabbing his arm is probably going to be spending the summer with his wife and children. Forgive me if I don't exactly feel sorry for that.

As for Chris Carpenter, both he and Waino threw a TON of innings last season. I wouldn't be shocked if he were to join him on the DL at some point this season, given injury history and that LaRussa ran those two into the ground last season. I'm not wishing it on Carpenter, but I wouldn't be surprised if Carpenter has to explain that to his son.

medford
02-24-2011, 12:11 PM
You know what kind of surprises me, and perhaps its common, but in order to see the team physician, he had to fly back to St Louis. I assume, like Tim K, their team physician has another practice to attend, but he likely has partners in his business who could cover while he's done at ST. Seems like you'd want your top Doc there every day, as a precaution w/ an agreement w/ local facilities to use their equipment when needed.

Quatitos
02-24-2011, 12:11 PM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/index.html

I know Gomes meant nothing malicious and if says he was singing something else then I have to believe him and thoroughly regret writing about it.



Hal McCoy partially retracts his original statement and apologizes for how this has made Gomes look.

Quatitos
02-24-2011, 12:14 PM
You know what kind of surprises me, and perhaps its common, but in order to see the team physician, he had to fly back to St Louis. I assume, like Tim K, their team physician has another practice to attend, but he likely has partners in his business who could cover while he's done at ST. Seems like you'd want your top Doc there every day, as a precaution w/ an agreement w/ local facilities to use their equipment when needed.

Or you would think they could at least use the Marlins/Rays facilities down in Florida and the Diamondbacks facility in Arizona. It doesn't make much sense to send him all the way back to St Louis to get checked. Although I guess with something like this it doesn't matter much since time is not of the essence since he is out anyways.

Eric_the_Red
02-24-2011, 12:44 PM
A few years ago I was in Walt Disney World waiting with a lot of other people for what would be a full bus. While at the bus stop, one lady slipped and fell and broke her wrist. Obviously she and the rest of her party were not going to get on the bus as they waited for medical attention. I guess I should've said "Yes!" and sang about it because it meant I didn't have to compete with her to get a seat on the bus. After all, she didn't get cancer or die.

Oh wait, this is about something much more important than that- sports.

medford
02-24-2011, 12:55 PM
A few years ago I was in Walt Disney World waiting with a lot of other people for what would be a full bus. While at the bus stop, one lady slipped and fell and broke her wrist. Obviously she and the rest of her party were not going to get on the bus as they waited for medical attention. I guess I should've said "Yes!" and sang about it because it meant I didn't have to compete with her to get a seat on the bus. After all, she didn't get cancer or die.

Oh wait, this is about something much more important than that- sports.

apples...oranges and you know it.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 12:59 PM
A few years ago I was in Walt Disney World waiting with a lot of other people for what would be a full bus. While at the bus stop, one lady slipped and fell and broke her wrist. Obviously she and the rest of her party were not going to get on the bus as they waited for medical attention. I guess I should've said "Yes!" and sang about it because it meant I didn't have to compete with her to get a seat on the bus. After all, she didn't get cancer or die.

Oh wait, this is about something much more important than that- sports.

Wow...I think you know the difference.

Blitz Dorsey
02-24-2011, 01:04 PM
A few years ago I was in Walt Disney World waiting with a lot of other people for what would be a full bus. While at the bus stop, one lady slipped and fell and broke her wrist. Obviously she and the rest of her party were not going to get on the bus as they waited for medical attention. I guess I should've said "Yes!" and sang about it because it meant I didn't have to compete with her to get a seat on the bus. After all, she didn't get cancer or die.

Oh wait, this is about something much more important than that- sports.

Poor effort. I know you can do better.

membengal
02-24-2011, 01:05 PM
That's one of the worst analogies I have ever come across.

reds44
02-24-2011, 01:10 PM
A few years ago I was in Walt Disney World waiting with a lot of other people for what would be a full bus. While at the bus stop, one lady slipped and fell and broke her wrist. Obviously she and the rest of her party were not going to get on the bus as they waited for medical attention. I guess I should've said "Yes!" and sang about it because it meant I didn't have to compete with her to get a seat on the bus. After all, she didn't get cancer or die.

Oh wait, this is about something much more important than that- sports.
That may have been the worst analogy ever.

medford
02-24-2011, 01:13 PM
That may have been the worst analogy ever.

Nah, I've heard more than one person accuse various politicians of being Hitler for whatever Bill they're sponsering. I'm guessing the Men who broke into the concentration camps are among those groups comparing a person for voting on a bill one way or another to what they found in the woods in Poland.

Caveat Emperor
02-24-2011, 01:18 PM
Oh please, CE. This is really a massive over-reaction on your part. Context matters. The fact that it was in a clubhouse, the Reds clubhouse, matters. If Gomes called a press conference to crow about it, classless. If Gomes called Hal over for an interview and crowed about it, classless. If Gomes went to a local watering hole and sang about it at a bar and it got out, classless. But expressing delight in his office, as it were, about the Reds' chances likely improving as against the Cardinals this year? Not classless. Human. And understandable.

And if a Cardinals player reacted similarly about an injury to Grinenke, or Cueto, or Dempster in the confines of their clubhouse and it got out because Joe Strauss forgot about the whole clubhouse thing, I would not "crucify" said player. Silly.

He could do it in the private of his home, with no reporters around, and I'd still think it was classless. I want players who raise their game to take on (and beat) the best -- not ones who get giddy because they don't have to face the opponent at his best.

RANDY IN INDY
02-24-2011, 01:24 PM
They're ballplayers and through the years, etiquette has not always been at the top of their list. For me, keep the reporters out of the clubhouse. The pot gets stirred way too often and too much. The clubhouse is the one place a player should be able to be away from it all and let their hair down. Give the reporters a space for interviews but keep them out of the clubhouse, period. JMHO

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 01:28 PM
He could do it in the private of his home, with no reporters around, and I'd still think it was classless. I want players who raise their game to take on (and beat) the best -- not ones who get giddy because they don't have to face the opponent at his best.

I'm pretty sure that the entire Reds organization was happy that the Cards were weakened this week. And that's probably the way they are looking at it. Not that someone suffered a fairly serious injury, but that the Cardinals got worse.

Injuries are part of the game. As long as a Cincinnatian didn't go and slice the tendom him or herself, the reactions shouldn't matter all that much unless it reached ridiculous levels.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 01:33 PM
Getting somewhat back on the original subject, is TJ surgery the new ACL surgery? It's almost like every pitcher has it and when they come back they are just as good if not better than before. An ACL surgery certainly isn't as serious as it used to be. Players have them frequently and while it eventually seems to slow them down, it's certainly not career ending.

bucksfan2
02-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Getting somewhat back on the original subject, is TJ surgery the new ACL surgery? It's almost like every pitcher has it and when they come back they are just as good if not better than before. An ACL surgery certainly isn't as serious as it used to be. Players have them frequently and while it eventually seems to slow them down, it's certainly not career ending.

It isn't career ending and most time pitchers come back stronger than they were before. The problem with Wainwright and the Cards is its usually 1.5 years before your back to your original self. So he misses all of this season and really isn't effective until June or so of 2012. Then you have that whole messy contract option thingy. Are you going to pick up the 2011 and 2012 option of you know he won't be as effective in 2011?

lollipopcurve
02-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Cardinal manager Tony LaRussa, according to a Ken Rosenthal Tweet, has no problem with Gomes.

“I happen to know Gomes,” LaRussa said. “I don’t think he meant anything by it.”

From Fay.

A little sanity from the Cards skipper.

Homer Bailey
02-24-2011, 02:21 PM
Gomes reaches out to Cards:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6154707&campaign=rss&source=twitter&ex_cid=Twitter_espn_6154707


Cincinnati Reds outfielder Jonny Gomes said Thursday that he has "reached out" to the St. Louis Cardinals to squash any potential hard feelings over a report that he was singing and celebrating in response to news of St. Louis pitcher Adam Wainwright's elbow injury.

kaldaniels
02-24-2011, 02:26 PM
What's up with the rash of (bad) metaphors and analogies lately? Even before this thread I have recently noticed I've been laughing alot at some absurd comparisons.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 02:31 PM
Gomes reaches out to Cards:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6154707&campaign=rss&source=twitter&ex_cid=Twitter_espn_6154707

Seems like Jonny is going on a damage control tour. I heard he'll be on The View tomorrow morning.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 02:43 PM
Seems like Jonny is going on a damage control tour. I heard he'll be on The View tomorrow morning.

:lol:

Eric_the_Red
02-24-2011, 03:07 PM
Thanks for the support, gang.

Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

Brutus
02-24-2011, 03:14 PM
Thanks for the support, gang.

Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

I don't agree with the thinking, but several have expressed that they don't find it a big deal because this isn't a career-ending injury, it's one that is completely and totally operable (and curable) and will not cause blindness, disability, paralysis or mental instability.

medford
02-24-2011, 03:19 PM
Thanks for the support, gang.

Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

Well I don't think anybody is cheering for injury, but to think that MLB players don't get happy when an opponent gets injuried and misses significant time, thus improving their odds of winning would be foolish. You don't think there's ever been a left handed batter to do a little jig anytime Randy Johnson got the flu, or pulled a muscle in his side and had to be pushed back to the following series against some other team?

There's also a subtle difference, at least in my mind, in being happy due to an opponent having a non life threatening injury, and rooting for an opponent to actual get injuried. I don't think what Johnny did was right, but I don't think he's the first to ever find joy in an opponent's injury.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 03:32 PM
Thanks for the support, gang.

Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

There may be a line of where it creeps into your personal life. At least there would be for me. Blindness would fall there...broken legs, maybe, especially if it was non-sports related.

If Carpenter were to be acting jovial due to Votto's depression, I would think that it is messed up but I probably wouldn't be beside myself. But it would also cross that "personal life" line for me.

cincrazy
02-24-2011, 03:35 PM
Just not sure why the defense of Hal from some of you.

I have never been in a major league baseball clubhouse. But I am given to understand that the players therein will make a LOT of rather off-color comments and observations about life. Homophobic jokes, comments in graphic detail about the physical attributes of female fans etc., comments about players' wives, comments about whatever. Completely off-the-cuff-, off-color, and generally off-the-normally-mainstream conversational talking points of general society. Because that's kinda the culture in there.

So...should Hal and any other reporter transcribe such exchanges?

Because, I don't think they should. And do. And this kind of clubhouse frivolity falls into that grouping, and Hal knows it. Which is why Hal is already expressing regret. If Hal had said to Gomes, hey Jonny, what of Wainwright, and Gomes did that, by all means, report it. If Gomes was in an area restaurant at a bar doing that, by all means report it. But within the confines of the clubhouse? Whether its a "reporter area" or not, there is NO WAY that it is generally accepted that things said in the confines of clubhouse fun are known to be "on the record" carte blanche. That's just not how it goes down, and I think most of us on here know it. This isn't about the sanctity of reporting, far from it. And if this were someone other than Hal, I suspect they would be told their clubhouse privileges were revoked. As it is, Hal's probably should be for awhile anyway.

There are lines you don't cross as a reporter, you're totally right. But Hal didn't report something about Gomes calling Wainwrigt's wife overweight, or about a homophobic comment. None of that has to do with baseball. Gomes singing about the loss of Wainwright, THAT has to do with baseball. IMO, that's the distinction. I can understand that this isn't a black and white issue. You have your opinion, I have mine, and that's fine. I just honestly don't see a problem with Hal printing it, and I hope if it happens in the future, he does the same.

marcshoe
02-24-2011, 03:39 PM
This may be a reach, but I'm not sure this injury really helps the Reds. Yes, it makes it easier to win the division, but honestly, I expected the Reds to widen the gap between them and the Cardinals, who may be headed for a (likely short) dry spell. I think the Brewers are the big team for the Reds to beat this year.

I still favor the Reds to win the division, though. Moving into the playoffs, they will have to face tough, ace-style starting pitching. The Cards losing Wainwright means one fewer top notch pitcher going up against them regularly. Every Wainright, every Grienke, every ace the Reds face during the season will give the team, especially the young players, needed experience against the types of pitchers they will face in the postseason.

This may be a bunch of malarky, but I honestly feel better if I know the team wins by beating first rate competition.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 03:41 PM
This may be a reach, but I'm not sure this injury really helps the Reds. Yes, it makes it easier to win the division, but honestly, I expected the Reds to widen the gap between them and the Cardinals, who may be headed for a (likely short) dry spell. I think the Brewers are the big team for the Reds to beat this year.

I still favor the Reds to win the division, though. Moving into the playoffs, they will have to face tough, ace-style starting pitching. The Cards losing Wainwright means one fewer top notch pitcher going up against them regularly. Every Wainright, every Grienke, every ace the Reds face during the season will give the team, especially the young players, needed experience against the types of pitchers they will face in the postseason.

This may be a bunch of malarky, but I honestly feel better if I know the team wins by beating first rate competition.

I'd say that this is somewhat malarky.

It doesn't help the Reds head to head vs the Cards as much as it does with regard to the Cards missing 30 starts by Waino. The Reds only faced him 4 times last year, and that was with TLR loading up his rotation so Cincy saw him and Carp each series at the end of the season.

OnBaseMachine
02-24-2011, 03:43 PM
Article from Jerry Crasnick:


"The guy is a good old Christian boy," Gomes told ESPN.com from Cincinnati's spring camp. "He's the guy that you root for as a fan and as a player. He did all his work in the minor leagues, grabbed the ball as a closer and converted to a starter. He's the guy every kid should mirror.



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2011/news/story?id=6154707

KronoRed
02-24-2011, 03:55 PM
This may be a bunch of malarky, but I honestly feel better if I know the team wins by beating first rate competition.

No Malarkey at all, I agree.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 04:00 PM
This may be a reach, but I'm not sure this injury really helps the Reds. Yes, it makes it easier to win the division, but honestly, I expected the Reds to widen the gap between them and the Cardinals, who may be headed for a (likely short) dry spell. I think the Brewers are the big team for the Reds to beat this year.

I still favor the Reds to win the division, though. Moving into the playoffs, they will have to face tough, ace-style starting pitching. The Cards losing Wainwright means one fewer top notch pitcher going up against them regularly. Every Wainright, every Grienke, every ace the Reds face during the season will give the team, especially the young players, needed experience against the types of pitchers they will face in the postseason.

This may be a bunch of malarky, but I honestly feel better if I know the team wins by beating first rate competition.

I wouldn't be so quick to count StL out. If Garcia is on top of his game and Carpenter continues to pitch as well as he has been for the past several years, that's a tough 1-2 punch right there. If they can sustain an offense that is on par with what they have done for the past few years, they are going to be tough to beat. Not as tough as they were when they had Wainwright but still pretty tough nonetheless.

I did see they are losing Punto for 2-3 months with a sports hernia. Of course that's not the same as losing Wainwright but it affects their depth.

In the future when they look back on the 2011 season and if the Reds won the division, no one's going to say that they won because Wainwright was out.

medford
02-24-2011, 04:09 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to count StL out. If Garcia is on top of his game and Carpenter continues to pitch as well as he has been for the past several years, that's a tough 1-2 punch right there. If they can sustain an offense that is on par with what they have done for the past few years, they are going to be tough to beat. Not as tough as they were when they had Wainwright but still pretty tough nonetheless.

I did see they are losing Punto for 2-3 months with a sports hernia. Of course that's not the same as losing Wainwright but it affects their depth.

Chip, I already thought the Cards were going to struggle to regain the Central title. Definently not out of the realm, but depth was a key factor, as well as the wear & tear on several players the last few years that I figured would play a role in injuries. Throw Waino's injury into the mix, and they're on even shakier ground. I have trouble thinking Carpenter is going will make it the entire season, he's been showing signs of wear the last couple of years, and has been ridden hard. Garcia had a huge jump in innings coming off TJS, which raises an eyebrow. Molina has seen a ton of work behind the plate the last few years, which will eventually catch up with his outstanding defensive ability. Berkman was a mess last year at first, I have no idea how he makes it thru the season playing the OF. But on top of all that, which is far from a certaintity, I think they've got a ton worse defensively. They're worse at SS w/o Ryan. Berkman is going to be scary out in the OF. I've already mentioned the wear on Molina, and my question marks there. Depth has taken a huge hit losing one of the best pitchers in the NL for a replacement level guy.

I won't count the cards out, not at least until we get a good chunk into the season and see how my beliefs hold up. Certainly Albert, Holliday, and a healthy Carpenter and Garcia could carry an average team pretty far. But on top of all of that, they've got the LaRussa/Rasmus fued that didn't appear to ever get resolved last season and the Pujols contract question that going to get brought up eveytime the hit the road, and a good amount while at home. I think the Cards are more likely to lose 80 games than they are to win 90. For the Reds sake, I hope I'm right, but the Brew Crew appear to be the top challenger at the moment.

PuffyPig
02-24-2011, 04:18 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to count StL out. If Garcia is on top of his game and Carpenter continues to pitch as well as he has been for the past several years, that's a tough 1-2 punch right there.

Garcia was a rookie last year, and his innings were limited in the later parts of the season.

I'm not certain he has "game" yet.

In his past "several" years, Carpenter missed two because of injuries.

Just sayin'.

Yachtzee
02-24-2011, 04:18 PM
Seems McCoy could benefit from a fact checker. Or maybe just turning to another reporter or a player in the clubhouse and asking "What was Gomez just singing?"

Singing "You're the Best Around" from the Karate Kid is actually kind of funny. Not like if Gomes injured Wainright after Bench Coach John Kreese told him "Sweep the leg, Johnny." I don't suppose Hal knows if anyone in the Reds clubhouse yelled "Get him a body bag!"

Brutus
02-24-2011, 04:19 PM
There are lines you don't cross as a reporter, you're totally right. But Hal didn't report something about Gomes calling Wainwrigt's wife overweight, or about a homophobic comment. None of that has to do with baseball. Gomes singing about the loss of Wainwright, THAT has to do with baseball. IMO, that's the distinction. I can understand that this isn't a black and white issue. You have your opinion, I have mine, and that's fine. I just honestly don't see a problem with Hal printing it, and I hope if it happens in the future, he does the same.

Baseball players live by a code of conduct, "what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse."

Reporters know this and should respect it. I realize beat reporters are hanging around for a reason, but I think the clubhouse is a player's sanctuary. While there are portions of the clubhouse that are off limits to reporters, giving some element of privacy if necessary, I think the media should respect these types of situations.

Chip R
02-24-2011, 04:21 PM
I won't count the cards out, not at least until we get a good chunk into the season and see how my beliefs hold up. Certainly Albert, Holliday, and a healthy Carpenter and Garcia could carry an average team pretty far. But on top of all of that, they've got the LaRussa/Rasmus fued that didn't appear to ever get resolved last season and the Pujols contract question that going to get brought up eveytime the hit the road, and a good amount while at home. I think the Cards are more likely to lose 80 games than they are to win 90. For the Reds sake, I hope I'm right, but the Brew Crew appear to be the top challenger at the moment.


I agree they have a lot of questions and losing Wainwright just makes it worse for them. But I still can't count them out.

It also seems to me that they put together this team with an eye on beating the Reds - as well they should. They got a couple of Reds killers in Berkman and Theriot. Of course they owned the Reds head to head last year and it only got them 2nd place.

Homer Bailey
02-24-2011, 04:27 PM
I agree they have a lot of questions and losing Wainwright just makes it worse for them. But I still can't count them out.

It also seems to me that they put together this team with an eye on beating the Reds - as well they should. They got a couple of Reds killers in Berkman and Theriot. Of course they owned the Reds head to head last year and it only got them 2nd place.

Theriot? Reds killer? C'mon, he's got a career .767 OPS vs. the Reds. Theriot is the last thing I'm worried about.

TheNext44
02-24-2011, 04:38 PM
Just not sure why the defense of Hal from some of you.

I have never been in a major league baseball clubhouse. But I am given to understand that the players therein will make a LOT of rather off-color comments and observations about life. Homophobic jokes, comments in graphic detail about the physical attributes of female fans etc., comments about players' wives, comments about whatever. Completely off-the-cuff-, off-color, and generally off-the-normally-mainstream conversational talking points of general society. Because that's kinda the culture in there.

So...should Hal and any other reporter transcribe such exchanges?

Because, I don't think they should. And do. And this kind of clubhouse frivolity falls into that grouping, and Hal knows it. Which is why Hal is already expressing regret. If Hal had said to Gomes, hey Jonny, what of Wainwright, and Gomes did that, by all means, report it. If Gomes was in an area restaurant at a bar doing that, by all means report it. But within the confines of the clubhouse? Whether its a "reporter area" or not, there is NO WAY that it is generally accepted that things said in the confines of clubhouse fun are known to be "on the record" carte blanche. That's just not how it goes down, and I think most of us on here know it. This isn't about the sanctity of reporting, far from it. And if this were someone other than Hal, I suspect they would be told their clubhouse privileges were revoked. As it is, Hal's probably should be for awhile anyway.

I have been in a clubhouse, the Reds clubhouse among others actually, as I am friends with two guys who used to cover the Reds.

I was only the area where media is allowed, and I never, ever head any player say anything offensive or anything that they didn't mind being reported. There is only a part of the clubhouse where media is allowed, and they are allowed for only a limited amount of time. Players know this and they know that anything they say there can be reported. I have even seen a player start to say some joke, only to be stopped by another player who points out the reporter close by. Gomes should have known what he said there could have reported.

I am sure that when reporters are not around, the players act like the dumb, uneducated, testosterone driven jocks that most of them are. But they know not to act like that when reporters are around.

Funny you mentioned Gomes saying this at a bar, and a reporter overhearing it, because that is generally considered off limits. In fact, not to brag, but I have been out with Hal himself, and other reporters and Reds players, and I couldn't believe the nasty things that they said and joked about, all considered off the record, because it was on personal time.

I understand your argument, however, your understanding of the relationship between players and reporters is actually the opposite of the way that actually is.

edabbs44
02-24-2011, 04:43 PM
http://images0.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3822067/Snitches-Get-stitches.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Victory-Baby

Redlegs
02-24-2011, 04:59 PM
He said it, Hal has every right to tell it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

He should not have reported this, west. If reporters ran with stories from the clubhouses, all hell would be breaking lose around the majors.

medford
02-24-2011, 05:01 PM
I agree they have a lot of questions and losing Wainwright just makes it worse for them. But I still can't count them out.

It also seems to me that they put together this team with an eye on beating the Reds - as well they should. They got a couple of Reds killers in Berkman and Theriot. Of course they owned the Reds head to head last year and it only got them 2nd place.

If this had been prior to the start of last season, and Berkman was somehow playing 1b for the Cards, then I would have worried. however his bat has slowed ton a ton, and he's not going to cut it in the outfield. perhaps Berkman will be different, but I remember watching Junior's bat slow down to the same extent, and it never came close to speeding back up. He had to cheat on so many fastballs, he could lay off the breaking stuff. I have a feeling Lance will be the same way with the bat, and even worse playing RF.

westofyou
02-24-2011, 05:11 PM
He should not have reported this, west. If reporters ran with stories from the clubhouses, all hell would be breaking lose around the majors.

It's baseball.

Not the Pentagon

TheNext44
02-24-2011, 05:20 PM
I posted this in the other thread, but it fits better here.



I have been in a clubhouse, the Reds clubhouse among others actually, as I am friends with two guys who used to cover the Reds.

I was only in the area where media is allowed, and I never, ever head any player say anything offensive or anything that they didn't mind being reported. There is only a part of the clubhouse where media is allowed, and they are allowed for only a limited amount of time. Players know this and they know that anything they say there can be reported. I have even seen a player start to say some joke, only to be stopped by another player who points out the reporter close by. Gomes should have known what he said there could have reported.

I am sure that when reporters are not around, the players act like the dumb, uneducated, testosterone driven jocks that most of them are. But they know not to act like that when reporters are around.

Funny you mentioned Gomes saying this at a bar, and a reporter overhearing it, because that is generally considered off limits. In fact, not to brag, but I have been out with Hal himself, and other reporters and Reds players, and I couldn't believe the nasty things that they said and joked about, all considered off the record, because it was on personal time.

Raisor
02-24-2011, 05:21 PM
There are areas in the clubhouse that are off limits for the press. If Gomes was in an "open" area, then it's on him not Hal.

Unassisted
02-24-2011, 05:23 PM
He should not have reported this, west. If reporters ran with stories from the clubhouses, all hell would be breaking lose around the majors.Being a blogger, Hal now has to create buzz with his stories and draw clicks. The more tabloid-y and salacious they are, the more eyeballs they'll draw. "I'm in the best shape of my life" isn't going to get it done anymore.

Krusty
02-24-2011, 05:55 PM
If Gomes said it then he deserves to be drilled. Sorry folks. If it was one of the Reds players and a Cardinal said it we would expect one of the Reds starters to settle it.

camisadelgolf
02-24-2011, 06:20 PM
I think the only real crime here is that people care enough to call it news. Some people have blown this so far out of proportion that you'd think Gomes was going to go into the Cardinals' clubhouse and break the wrists and tear the hamstrings of every player in there.

Let's hypothetically say that Gomes' singing was exactly how seem people are deciding to interpret it: that Gomes is wishing ill will on other players. You know what that would make him? Probably a bad person. Who cares? He's a baseball player, not a priest. Baseball is a team sport, and we're rooting for teams. If you're looking to root for the team with the best moral fiber and most stand-up human beings, I've got some bad news: there are bad seeds on every team. It's a lot like real life in that way.

It amazes me that so many people want to take Gomes' singing completely out of context to mean something different from what it actually was. People need to get lives and stop paying attention to the players' personal lives. They might even enjoy the game a little bit more.

Gomes is reasonably intelligent, but he's full of moronic comments--especially when he's trying to be funny. That's just who he is. If you decide to take this seriously, then you're probably taking a lot of things seriously that a more-functional person would enjoy by taking in the context that was intended.

This isn't aimed at RedsZone, but when it comes to most of the major baseball sites, I feel like I'm in high school again. If this is the kind of news you're looking for, why don't you get a Jersey Shore box set? Grow the h-e-double-hockey-stick up.

Opening Day, please get here fast.

westofyou
02-24-2011, 07:03 PM
Meanwhile in Fla....

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/carpenter_open_to_trade_but_not_counting_on_it/4230332


“It’s not up to me. If the Cardinals wanted to trade me, obviously I would go. There’s no question about that,” Carpenter said. “I’m not going hold back or veto or do anything like that if they’re looking to move me.

membengal
02-24-2011, 07:05 PM
Meanwhile in Fla....

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/carpenter_open_to_trade_but_not_counting_on_it/4230332

Huh.

Yankees have a screaming need and major league ready prospects.

Griffey012
02-24-2011, 07:13 PM
No, but I bet your feathers would be ruffled if any player from another club celebrated an injury to a key Reds player in such a manner.

Gomes never celebrated the injury. He celebrated Wainwright not playing for the Cardinals this season. He was not running around saying "Look at that Wainwright needs TJ, sucker!" Or "Hallelujah Wainwright tore a ligament." He was celebrating the Reds gain as a team which was the Cardinals loss, he was not celebrating that fact Waino is injured. As I mentioned in a post before, how is this any different than if they traded Waino for a group of minor leaguers and he came in celebrating "Wainright is gone"?

It is fine to be somewhat excited about personal or family gain when it comes to how it affects you personally. For example, say you are playing the stock market and you sold 1,000 shares of General Motors short before GM went bankrupt. Is it not ok to be happy about your investment gain? Even though it was directly related to thousands losing their jobs.

Griffey012
02-24-2011, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the support, gang.

Now we root for and cheer injuries. Good to know.

Let me ask this: if Wainwright were involved in an automobile accident and broke his leg, would it be okay to celebrate? Just trying to pinpoint the parameters of when it is acceptable to cheer for pain. As long as it isn't fatal, it's okay? What about blindness- that isn't fatal. Lose of limb?

Finally, how would you feel if Chris Carpenter were found to be jovial while Votto was missing time due to his depression?

Is he celebrating the fact the Cards do not have to face Votto when playing the Reds? Or is he celebrating that fact that Votto is out due to depression. These are completely opposite sides and make all the difference in how I would view Chris Carpenter in this instance.

cincrazy
02-24-2011, 07:33 PM
Being a blogger, Hal now has to create buzz with his stories and draw clicks. The more tabloid-y and salacious they are, the more eyeballs they'll draw. "I'm in the best shape of my life" isn't going to get it done anymore.

This just isn't the truth. Hal isn't just a "blogger," he's a Hall of Fame beat man. He's not working for the National Enquirer. The man has too much professional pride and dignity to just make something up, or to throw something out there just to start a fire.

Hell, even if it does start a fire, this excites me. It adds more juice to the rivalry, which is better for the game, and for the Reds, if you ask me. How can the exposure hurt? After 10 years and counting of being irrelevant, I'm glad someone is pissed off at us for a change.