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Oxblood
02-25-2011, 11:33 AM
This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

bucksfan2
02-25-2011, 11:46 AM
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Redsfan320
02-25-2011, 11:56 AM
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Tough call, but I take Jr for his defense.

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
Mantle rocked, buy Mays is ,for me, the best player ever.

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Similar type hitters and fielders, I think Aaron has the edge.

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
I'm taking him for his great all-around hitting, and his cannon in the OF.

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
PEDs, plus I think DiMaggio was better anyway.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
Tough here, but I think Stan the Man was the better all-around hitter.

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
PEDs.

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
I'll be honest, name recognition played a big part here. Plus, Cobb was a hit machine.

320

Oxblood
02-25-2011, 12:20 PM
^ Great breakdowns on your picks, that's what I like to see.

cumberlandreds
02-25-2011, 12:36 PM
I meant to vote on round one but forgot about it. So here goes:

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Ruth transcended the game. He just has some incredible numbers. If Griffey could have stayed healthy then maybe........

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
Mays may be the best overall player of all time. Mantle's injuries hurt him here for me.
Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Toughest call of the set. I went with Aaron because he is still the HR king in my book.
Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
Clemente was just better overall in nearly every category. Clemente's defense was impeccable.
Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
Joe D was just better overall in running the bases and fielding.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
Very tough call here. I gave the edge to Williams just because of his power.
Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Before PEDS Bonds would have still been considered one of the best overall players of the last half century. I'll give him an edge over Ott.
Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Cobb by his contemporaries was considered the best player in the game. That's good enough for me to vote for him against Speaker.

reds1869
02-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Babe Ruth is baseball to many people.

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
As others have mentioned, Mays might be the best ever.

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Even now, Hank is underappreciated.

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
Clemente knocked the door down for latin players in a way no one had; that impact can't be underestimate.

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
Joltin' Joe was another player who transcended the game.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
Flip a coin.

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Even without "extra help" Bonds would be in the discussion for greatest of all time.

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
I'm a Deadball partisan and think Cobb is woefully undervalued by modern fans. To a man his contemporaries--despite often intense personal distaste for him--called him teh best they ever saw.

Slyder
02-25-2011, 01:02 PM
Toughest one for me were Rickey vs Roberto and Stan the Man vs Teddy Ballgame.
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Without Babe Ruth you wouldnt see baseball the way it is today. He was the driving force behind baseball in the early days.

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
Would probably be closer if Mantle could have been healthy.

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
When Manny is mentioned in a Simon and Garfunkel song I'll reconsider.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Razor Shines
02-25-2011, 01:06 PM
Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
Ruth's 177 career WAR more than doubles Jr. Ruth also had a career OPS of 1.164. Ridiculous.

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
Toughest one for me. In their prime Mantle may have been a tick better but Mays was able to be really good for longer.

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Aaron was a better hitter and defender.

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
Henderson was superior on offense and was a good defender in his prime. Don't think Clemente D was enough to overcome.

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
A TON better defense.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
WAR is even. Went with Williams because his peak was better.

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Easy. Superior defender and hitter.

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
Pretty close seems that Cobb was a little better though.

nmculbreth
02-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Cuban_Missile
02-25-2011, 04:24 PM
Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr
You can't not vote for the great Bambino.
Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays
I just love Willie Mays always have thats why he gets my vote.
Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron
Again you have to vote for Hammerin Hank Aaron if you are a true baseball fan.
Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente
Because Henderson is one of the best Left Fielders to ever play the game.
Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez
For his great offensive stats
Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
Just the fact that he his last player to hit over .400 in a season.
Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Can't vote for a possible juicer
Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
892 stolen bases speaks for itself.

MikeThierry
02-25-2011, 11:23 PM
Babe Ruth- Arguably the greatest player of all time

Willie Mays-Better overall player

Hank Aaron-Most consistent hitter in the history of the game

Clemente

DiMaggio- Ramirez steroid issue takes him out of this category in my
opinion.

Musial- This is probably the homer pick. I realize that. However I think ball park also plays a huge factor into this. Fenway was much more of a hitters park than Sportsman's Park. Sportsman's Park almost played like a canyon at times. Musial had 17 records when he retired. Musial also has the highest rating on Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor with 445, ahead of Ty Cobb and Ruth. Musial didn't have the power that Williams had, but I don't think you can ignore Musial's total bases and other gaudy numbers. I also know that Williams hit .400 one year but does that one year (out of many great years) mean he should automatically be ahead of Musial? I just don't know. Musial also had almost 1000 more hits than Williams

Mel Ott-Again, the steroid issue makes me pick him over Bonds

Ty Cobb

BoxingRed
02-26-2011, 12:28 AM
Really don't get the Clemente over Rickey picks. My pure speculation is people are turned off by Rickey being Rickey or enamored with BA. Henderson is clearly the superior player, so there must be other factors. Rickey is the all time leader in Runs, SBs and lead off HRs.(Second in BBs all-time and a career OBP of .401) The latter 2 records will most likely stand for as long as any of us are alive.
There are several players on this list I would rank over Rickey, but Clemente is not one of them.

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
__________________

MikeThierry
02-26-2011, 01:22 AM
Really don't get the Clemente over Rickey picks. My pure speculation is people are turned off by Rickey being Rickey or enamored with BA. Henderson is clearly the superior player, so there must be other factors. Rickey is the all time leader in Runs, SBs and lead off HRs.(Second in BBs all-time and a career OBP of .401) The latter 2 records will most likely stand for as long as any of us are alive.
There are several players on this list I would rank over Rickey, but Clemente is not one of them.


For me, part of it is about intangible things rather than actual stats. Clemente played in an era that was dominated by pitchers. To me, that has to account for something. Who was the best pitcher of the 80's? Jack Morris or Ryan? Clemente just faced so many more quality pitchers such as Gibson, Drysdale, and Koufax.

He had a higher career BA, OPS, SLG, and OPS+ than Henderson.

I also think that people are focusing too much on offense in this tournament. Clemente was clearly a superior defensive outfielder than Henderson, winning 12 Gold Gloves in his 18 year career.

I also think the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor carries some weight to it and is a good judge of who is a hall of famer or not. Clemente has 230 points compared to Henderson 178. The Hall of Fame Monitor doesn't even take into account defense.

I personally like Henderson and I love his Ricky is Ricky mentality. I loved the fact that he had swagger on the base paths and at the plate. I just feel that if we are going with the overall package, its Clemente.

MikeThierry
02-26-2011, 01:30 AM
I personally think the toughest decision on this list is Musial vs. Williams. Williams did have power numbers but I simply cannot ignore that Musial retired with 17 major league records and 29 national league records.

Its a shame that these two have to go against each other this round because this easily could have been the match up in the final round.

nmculbreth
02-26-2011, 02:43 AM
Musial- This is probably the homer pick. I realize that. However I think ball park also plays a huge factor into this. Fenway was much more of a hitters park than Sportsman's Park. Sportsman's Park almost played like a canyon at times. Musial had 17 records when he retired. Musial also has the highest rating on Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor with 445, ahead of Ty Cobb and Ruth. Musial didn't have the power that Williams had, but I don't think you can ignore Musial's total bases and other gaudy numbers. I also know that Williams hit .400 one year but does that one year (out of many great years) mean he should automatically be ahead of Musial? I just don't know. Musial also had almost 1000 more hits than Williams


For me this was probably the hardest match up. Ultimately I give the edge to Williams because as you mentioned he hit for more power and his career OPS is 140 points higher than Musial. Also Williams lost three years of his prime, compared to only one for Musial which I think offsets some of Musial's advantage in the counting categories. That said it's a really close match up and I don't think you can go wrong with either player.

mth123
02-26-2011, 09:55 AM
This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, Dimaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb.

Fun thread. Sorry I missed round 1.

BoxingRed
02-26-2011, 09:55 AM
For me, part of it is about intangible things rather than actual stats. Clemente played in an era that was dominated by pitchers. To me, that has to account for something. Who was the best pitcher of the 80's? Jack Morris or Ryan? Clemente just faced so many more quality pitchers such as Gibson, Drysdale, and Koufax.

He had a higher career BA, OPS, SLG, and OPS+ than Henderson.

I also think that people are focusing too much on offense in this tournament. Clemente was clearly a superior defensive outfielder than Henderson, winning 12 Gold Gloves in his 18 year career.

I also think the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor carries some weight to it and is a good judge of who is a hall of famer or not. Clemente has 230 points compared to Henderson 178. The Hall of Fame Monitor doesn't even take into account defense.

I personally like Henderson and I love his Ricky is Ricky mentality. I loved the fact that he had swagger on the base paths and at the plate. I just feel that if we are going with the overall package, its Clemente.

Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."

Eric_the_Red
02-26-2011, 10:44 AM
Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
I think it is easy to look at their career numbers and forget what Williams' stats could have been if it weren't for his service to our country.

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
Even before the juice, Bonds was a multiple MVP winner.

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

George Anderson
02-26-2011, 12:04 PM
This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

His stats speak for themselves and that includes his pitching stats.

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Tough one but due to Willie not suffering from injuries, he lived a cleaner life than Mantle which led to a longer career gives him the edge here.

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

HR's and RBI career totals say it all.

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Edge to Clemente defensively but Rickey was better at the rest.

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Defense speaks here.

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Tough one but Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Pre Juice Barry is still better than Mel

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Speaker was amazing especially with the glove but he was no Cobb on the field.

Cyclone792
02-26-2011, 02:05 PM
This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, DiMaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb

The only close one is Mays/Mantle. Mantle was the greater peak player, but Mays' career value edge trumps Mantle's peak value edge. That much being said, it's quite close overall.

It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).

nmculbreth
02-26-2011, 03:20 PM
It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).

I couldn't agree more. There seems to be lot of people who look at Mantle and wonder what might have been and frankly I don't understand it. I realize that injuries and alcoholism cut into his production, but for crying out loud he's 12th on the alltime WAR list with a career WAR just north of 120.

Slyder
02-26-2011, 04:08 PM
Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, DiMaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb

The only close one is Mays/Mantle. Mantle was the greater peak player, but Mays' career value edge trumps Mantle's peak value edge. That much being said, it's quite close overall.

It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).


I couldn't agree more. There seems to be lot of people who look at Mantle and wonder what might have been and frankly I don't understand it. I realize that injuries and alcoholism cut into his production, but for crying out loud he's 12th on the alltime WAR list with a career WAR just north of 120.

If Mantle was lined up vs anyone not named Mays or Ruth (maybe Williams/Aaron just because Aaron was good for so long vs Mantle's shorter shelflife.) that is left then I probably would have but when it comes to this competition to me it should come down to Mays/Ruth/Aaron (Bonds falls earlier because of the PED question). I just feel that Mays was that much better of a player for a longer time than Mantle was, maybe its all the oldtime highlights I see of Mays.

MikeThierry
02-27-2011, 01:01 AM
Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."


I think WAR is an overused and somewhat flawed stat. I will never use it to compare two different players from two different era's. There are just too many factors involved, one of which is what would be an "average" player in the 1960's vs. the 1980's. The WAR stat only uses the current model of what an "average" player is. It doesn't account for what an average, replacement player is in the 1960's.

I still think you have to look at each player in context to the era they played. As pointed out before, the 60's was a pitching dominant decade so obviously the offensive numbers wouldn't be as great as they were in the 1980's or even today for that matter.

And as I pointed out, Clemente is easily in the top 5 defensive outfielders the game has ever seen. His dominance at defense along with Clemente's brilliance at the plate makes him a better outfielder in my mind than Ricky.

On a side note, what impresses me from looking at WAR leaders all time, Albert Pujols is already ranked 47th all time in WAR at just age 31. Its going to be interesting to see where he ends up 8-10 years from now on this list.

HokieRed
02-27-2011, 01:07 AM
This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

Round 2

Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

Ruth: greatest offensive player of all time
Mays: greatest player of all time
Aaron: have to take him over my personal all time favorite Red and player
Clemente: very tough call, Henderson better in many ways, but for those of us who first saw baseball in the 50's Clemente is transcendent, have to see him throw from right field to believe it
DiMaggio: agree that Mantle was better than DiMag but he was better than Manny
Williams: second greatest offensive player ever
Bonds: ?
Cobb: have to go with that .367

Oxblood
02-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Very good stuff ITT, great banter.

Results on Thursday and I'll post round 3 this Friday.

Oxblood
03-03-2011, 12:33 PM
Great Round...Nice job fellas

Round 2 results

Babe Ruth def Ken Griffey Jr 14-1

Willie Mays def Mickey Mantle 14-1

Hank Aaron def Frank Robinson 13-2

Rickey Henderson def Roberto Clemente 8-7

Joe DiMaggio def Manny Ramirez 15-0

Ted Williams def Stan Musial 12-3

Barry Bonds def Mel Ott 12-3

Ty Cobb def Tris Speaker 15-0

Round 3 up Friday