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View Full Version : Stubbs to Start Season Leading Off



redsfan_12
03-11-2011, 03:42 PM
per Fay:

Baker declares Stubbs leadoff man. "If it doesnt work, Ill change it" - Dusty

DirtyBaker
03-11-2011, 04:06 PM
Dusty doesn't sound too confident. If he can hit like he hit in the 2nd half of the year this could payoff big time. He's gotta be a leadoff hitter for this team at some point.

Parliament
03-11-2011, 04:07 PM
Hope he can cut down on his K's

mattwellsey
03-11-2011, 04:14 PM
Instead of trying to assemble some sort of gigantic mathematical equation that solves the Reds biggest offensive dilemma, it is more important to assign the leadoff position to the player that allows the lineup to assemble in its most productive form. There are four guys on this team that have the capability to leadoff. Let's see how the lineup falls below them.

To see the rest, visit: http://tapthoseshinguards.blogspot.com/

krm1580
03-11-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't love the idea but without any real good options I can live with it as long as Dusty is willing to pull the plug if it does not work.

In my opinion Stubbs is a middle of the order bat with speed, not a top of the order bat with power. I think everyone agrees he needs to make better contact and cut down on the K's this season but the last thing I want to see is Stubbs bunting or slapping the ball on the ground trying to leg out hits.

The guy was flat out mashing from August on and if he can do that from the leadoff spot great. If on the other hand he tries to turn into Ichiro to fit the expected mold of being a leadoff hitter it is wasting his talent.

Redsnake
03-11-2011, 05:03 PM
Maybe Dusty should have waited a few days into spring training instead of announcing Gomes the staring LF. Then maybe Fred Lewis could have have played his way into the lead of spot and playing LF.

Now he puts someone that he isn't 100% on in the lead of spot and is 100% backing the guy most Reds fans don't want to see as there starting LF.

brm7675
03-11-2011, 05:31 PM
to me Stubbs if he could master the art of the bunt could be one of the most dangerous leadoff hitters in all of baseball...

gedred69
03-11-2011, 10:28 PM
Sappelt's performance thus far, is making it extremely hard not to figure in the equation. This spring he has been a caged Lion, who has escaped.

webbbj
03-11-2011, 11:19 PM
OMGGGGGGG Fire Dusty. Stubbs Leadoff Worst Decisionn evvvvvverrr.

Eric the Red
03-11-2011, 11:20 PM
I don't love the idea but without any real good options I can live with it as long as Dusty is willing to pull the plug if it does not work.

In my opinion Stubbs is a middle of the order bat with speed, not a top of the order bat with power. I think everyone agrees he needs to make better contact and cut down on the K's this season but the last thing I want to see is Stubbs bunting or slapping the ball on the ground trying to leg out hits.

The guy was flat out mashing from August on and if he can do that from the leadoff spot great. If on the other hand he tries to turn into Ichiro to fit the expected mold of being a leadoff hitter it is wasting his talent.

Well said, I agree on all points. I would love to see Stubbs reach his potential, so few players can make the game look so easy. I just don't think batting leadoff allows him to reach his full potential. Neither do I think it's for the betterment of the team if he bats leadoff.

Roush's socks
03-11-2011, 11:35 PM
For a leadoff hitter you want: high OBP%, good base-running, power not important. The Reds don't have any hitter that fits that profile, so whoever he picks there will be critics. The good thinbg is I don't think batting order matters that much as long as the right players are in the lineup. After all, the Reds scored a lot last year without a typical leadoff hitter.

IMO I like a leadoff hitter who is patient and works the count. From a mental standpoint it is good to make the pitcher work a little and show his pitches right off the bat.

goreds2
03-12-2011, 09:20 AM
to me Stubbs if he could master the art of the bunt could be one of the most dangerous leadoff hitters in all of baseball...

Like Stubbs says, the opposing team usually takes the bunt (for a hit) away from him. When he establishes himself as a hitter for average, the bunting game will open up.

Kingspoint
03-12-2011, 04:28 PM
per Fay:

Baker declares Stubbs leadoff man. "If it doesnt work, Ill change it" - Dusty

That's how it should be.

Redsnake
03-12-2011, 05:27 PM
OMGGGGGGG Fire Dusty. Stubbs Leadoff Worst Decisionn evvvvvverrr.

I agree about firing Dusty.
However, I think the Gomes is the LF and thinking about having Bruce lead off was the "Worst Decision ever".

brm7675
03-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Like Stubbs says, the opposing team usually takes the bunt (for a hit) away from him. When he establishes himself as a hitter for average, the bunting game will open up.

How does the opposing team take away something he doesn't have? He can't bunt he's horrible at it.

lonewolf371
03-14-2011, 02:40 PM
That's how it should be.
Agreed.


I agree about firing Dusty.
However, I think the Gomes is the LF and thinking about having Bruce lead off was the "Worst Decision ever".
Sometimes I feel like people are looking for any excuse to get angry about Dusty.

mroby85
03-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Agreed.


Sometimes I feel like people are looking for any excuse to get angry about Dusty.

No kidding. Nevermind the fact that he took this team to the playoffs for the first time in the last 15 years, has won manager of the year multiple times with multiple teams, and lost that honor last year by 1 vote to a manager whose team didn't make the playoffs. he's a complete moron. :rolleyes:

brm7675
03-14-2011, 07:45 PM
No kidding. Nevermind the fact that he took this team to the playoffs for the first time in the last 15 years, has won manager of the year multiple times with multiple teams, and lost that honor last year by 1 vote to a manager whose team didn't make the playoffs. he's a complete moron. :rolleyes:

A) The players took the team to the division title, not Dusty
B) Winning MOTY is not a big deal
C) Yes, yes he is a complete one..

mu4103
03-14-2011, 08:23 PM
Really what else are you going to do? A guy with Stubbs speed needs to learn to make contact and hit in the one hole. It makes no sense to have a guy who hits 20 homeruns with a OBP .330 in your line-up if he can't learn to hit leadoff - where else hit him? The 7th or 8 hole? Can you have a guy with Drew's K numbers in a run producing situation?

The same thing with Gomes, if you bring a guy back with his salary, you have to at least start him at the beginning of the year. I don't think Heisey or Lewis should take over the job. Too much pressure for Heisey and Lewis doesn't have the career numbers to prove that he is worthy of a starting roll initially. If you put Heisey out right away and he fails, you might destroy the kids career. If Gomes fails - what else is new. I think Lewis has the same upside and downside as Gomes (obviously in different ways).

The only one you could justify is Hermida, because he has a bit of a track record. He had a couple of OK years in FLA and is having a monster spring. With Hermida's potential and spring training numbers, he is the only one I think could be justified in taking Gomes' left field spot out of spring training. (Though otherwise he may not make the team).

I would like to see the OFers be: Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Heisey, Hermida. Sorry, Fred you haven't shown me anything that I didn't already know.

Anyway, I agree with Dusty's decisions. I think Stubbs will fail because he still has not proven he can hit for OBP - and on the job training is not the best. But maybe he will prove something that makes him valuable in another way.

Kingspoint
03-14-2011, 09:42 PM
Too much pressure for Heisey and Lewis doesn't have the career numbers to prove that he is worthy of a starting roll initially. If you put Heisey out right away and he fails, you might destroy the kids career.

Heisey needs to be put out there so he can make his mistakes, and have his ups and downs that come from being new. The sooner he makes them (and gets his first 600 to 800 plate appearances), the sooner he can adjust and get better. We already know that Gomes is going to make mistakes both defensively and offensively.

Heisey's upside is so much greater than Gomes', and I believe 100% that Gomes' downside is much worse than Heisey's because Heisey gives you very good defense every night (and can get to all of those balls that get past the 37-year old Rolen, 37-year old Renteria and 38-year old Cairo).

The number of flyballs alone that Heisey can get to that Gomes, Rolen, Cairo and Renteria can't get to are dozens, at the very least over a 162-game schedule.

VottoFan54
03-15-2011, 12:15 AM
I don't think that Drew Stubbs is a good or prototypical leadoff hitter since he hits about .260 and hits 30 homers, about the only thing he has going for himself as a leadoff hitter is his speed. Dusty would be a lot smarter to have Fred Lewis leadoff vs. righties and then have Phillips or one of the catchers hit leadoff vs lefties since they hit right around .300 and are good with the bat and have good discipline.

bounty37h
03-15-2011, 12:08 PM
A) The players took the team to the division title, not Dusty
B) Winning MOTY is not a big deal
C) Yes, yes he is a complete one..

Could you at least learn another language to use so you can have some change/difference in your constant "dusty sucks" campaign? It has become old and boring.

lonewolf371
03-15-2011, 12:13 PM
I don't think that Drew Stubbs is a good or prototypical leadoff hitter since he hits about .260 and hits 30 homers, about the only thing he has going for himself as a leadoff hitter is his speed. Dusty would be a lot smarter to have Fred Lewis leadoff vs. righties and then have Phillips or one of the catchers hit leadoff vs lefties since they hit right around .300 and are good with the bat and have good discipline.
Stubbs doesn't have 30 HR power.

AVG doesn't matter for leading off. OBP does.

Stubbs is a good leadoff guy, but with his power he probably ideally fits in the 6/7 spot. If you look at everyone on the team, there's really no better leadoff guy than Stubbs. Phillips is on par but probably fits in better at the 2 spot. If we had a true leadoff guy like Gardner, the lineup would probably go:

Gardner
Phillips
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Stubbs
Hanigan/Ramirez
Janish/Renteria
Pitcher

Maybe the Reds could trade for Gardner at some point this season. Aside from another quality 3B to platoon with Rolen, there's really no better fit for the team in terms of completing the lineup. The Yankees need pitching, too. If Cueto's healthy and the Yankees feel like they have another option for LF I could possibly see a trade happen around June or July. Probably dealing Bailey or Leake.

It is nice to have Gomes behind Bruce, though. With his ability to mash L pitching, it pretty much forces other teams to only use LOOGYs for one out when sending them out for Bruce. Probably one of the biggest reasons Gomes plays so much. He helps Bruce stay closer to that .283 AVG vs. R rather than that .277 AVG vs. L. Of course, that's not a huge split anyway so we'd still probably be better off with a true leadoff guy playing in LF.

New York Red
03-15-2011, 02:17 PM
I've always been in favor of Stubbs leading off, but only if he learns to shorten his swing with two strikes. And of course, add the bunt to his arsenal. Do those two things and he could turn into a very dangerous lead-off man and all-star caliber player.

brm7675
03-15-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't think that Drew Stubbs is a good or prototypical leadoff hitter since he hits about .260 and hits 30 homers, about the only thing he has going for himself as a leadoff hitter is his speed. Dusty would be a lot smarter to have Fred Lewis leadoff vs. righties and then have Phillips or one of the catchers hit leadoff vs lefties since they hit right around .300 and are good with the bat and have good discipline.

How can Fred lead off if he isn't even playing....:cool:

Kingspoint
03-15-2011, 04:56 PM
AVG doesn't matter for leading off. OBP does.



No doubt. I can't believe there are still people in this world that still quote "batting average" when talking about a leadoff hitter.

Kingspoint
03-15-2011, 04:57 PM
I've always been in favor of Stubbs leading off, but only if he learns to shorten his swing with two strikes.

That could be all Dusty. How many times has Dusty stated that he wants his guys swinging away? Too many times to count.

Stubbs walked so many times in the Minor Leagues, it was boring to watch his at-bats. He's the perfect leadoff hitter if Dusty just butts out and lets him be himself.

VottoFan54
03-15-2011, 07:20 PM
No doubt. I can't believe there are still people in this world that still quote "batting average" when talking about a leadoff hitter.

A .329 OBP isn't all that impressive either.

I agree that if you are going to start Gomes then Stubbs is probably the best leadoff hitter available and someone like Gardner would be the ideal fit for the Reds if they traded from their catching or pitching surplus. For the beginning of the season I would have Stubbs/Lewis leadoff and then try to make a trade at the deadline.

lonewolf371
03-15-2011, 09:18 PM
A .329 OBP isn't all that impressive either.

I agree that if you are going to start Gomes then Stubbs is probably the best leadoff hitter available and someone like Gardner would be the ideal fit for the Reds if they traded from their catching or pitching surplus. For the beginning of the season I would have Stubbs/Lewis leadoff and then try to make a trade at the deadline.
It's not great, but it's not terrible, either.

I think when he lead off it was terrible, though. His best OBP was from the back of the order, I believe.

VottoFan54
03-15-2011, 09:41 PM
It's not great, but it's not terrible, either.

I think when he lead off it was terrible, though. His best OBP was from the back of the order, I believe.

That's what I thought too, but according to baseball reference he had a .324 OBP but only a .694 OPS from the leadoff spot in 127 AB. In the seventh spot he had a .332 OBP and a .784 OPS in 299 AB. His OBP was pretty much the same but there was a huge difference in OPS.

Kingspoint
03-15-2011, 11:04 PM
A .329 OBP isn't all that impressive either.

I agree that if you are going to start Gomes then Stubbs is probably the best leadoff hitter available and someone like Gardner would be the ideal fit for the Reds if they traded from their catching or pitching surplus. For the beginning of the season I would have Stubbs/Lewis leadoff and then try to make a trade at the deadline.

Stubbs' OBP so far in the Majors has been terrible. That Dusty forcibly made him change his approach (Swing, kid! Swing!) in August of 2009 has messed with his OBP, no doubt.

I think Stubbs will find a happy medium between what Dusty is asking of him and his own personal knowledge that it's good for him to get on base with walks because his speed will get him to 2nd.

Don't know if it will happen, of course, but I'd be shocked if he doesn't add 25 points to his OBP from last year's OBP.

brm7675
03-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Figures...Dusty should have been saying BUNT.....BUNT

Mr Larkin
03-17-2011, 12:22 AM
OMGGGGGGG Fire Dusty. Stubbs Leadoff Worst Decisionn evvvvvverrr.

So funny! The fastest player on the team the worst decision ever in the leadoff spot. How dare he?!