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Tony Cloninger
03-19-2011, 10:30 PM
What was the PITT guy doing fouling the guy to begin with? Wake up out there. You are tied not behind.

Slyder
03-19-2011, 10:30 PM
The Butler/Pitt finish was one of the most remarkable in recent tournament history.

For absolutely the most BONEHEADED play imaginable.
1) Pitt Almost throwing away the ball completely.
2) Butler actually attempting to get the ball and fouling.
3) Pitt quickly ripping away the title of DUMBEST FOUL EVER with that last one.

Boston Red
03-19-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm gonna have to check into this Georgia team some more if they would have won the Mountain West. They really must have been terrific.

HeatherC1212
03-19-2011, 11:36 PM
Thank you Pitt for ruining part of my bracket a round early (I had them losing in the next round). I should stick to not caring too much about basketball, LOL :laugh:

Scrap Irony
03-20-2011, 01:21 AM
Let's see how BYU does against an SEC team anointing them the greatest team since sliced bread.

WVRed
03-20-2011, 01:32 AM
For absolutely the most BONEHEADED play imaginable.
1) Pitt Almost throwing away the ball completely.
2) Butler actually attempting to get the ball and fouling.
3) Pitt quickly ripping away the title of DUMBEST FOUL EVER with that last one.

Haven't seen it, but it has to be up there with Preston Knowles fouling Truck in Morgantown about three weeks ago.

Slyder
03-20-2011, 01:51 AM
I now officially have more red ink in one bracket than I do the other 3 COMBINED so far. The Southeast has been so freaking bad that I lost both elite 8 teams and at least 1 other sweet 16 team. The rest I still have a relatively good deal left to play for. That is all.

Todd Gack
03-20-2011, 09:27 AM
Can we stop thinking the Big East is such a 'dominating conference?'

Revering4Blue
03-20-2011, 11:43 AM
I'll give an overall :thumbup: to the new multiple TV channel coverage. It's nice to be able to watch all games in their entirety. One notable exception:

A 9:40 pm EDT start for a Sunday night game (FSU/ND) is ridiculous and indefensible.

reds1869
03-20-2011, 01:05 PM
I'll give an overall :thumbup: to the new multiple TV channel coverage. It's nice to be able to watch all games in their entirety. One notable exception:

A 9:40 pm EDT start for a Sunday night game (FSU/ND) is ridiculous and indefensible.

I love the coverage, too. The 9:40 starts are unpleasant but on the flip side those out west probably love it. The strange thing is that the late starting games have primarily been played in the eastern half of the country.

joshnky
03-20-2011, 01:42 PM
For absolutely the most BONEHEADED play imaginable.
1) Pitt Almost throwing away the ball completely.
2) Butler actually attempting to get the ball and fouling.
3) Pitt quickly ripping away the title of DUMBEST FOUL EVER with that last one.

I agree that these were fouls but isn't that a time when refs are supposed to "swallow the whistle?" The loose ball foul at half-court was one thing because it was blatant and Pitt had a shot to go for the win but that rebounding foul was very questionable. There was so little time left on the clock that there wasn't anything that either team could have done with the ball unless Pitt had been able to rebound it clean. The Pitt player hitting Howard on the arm did not change the outcome of the game at all but the ref calling the foul did.

It was certainly a foul, but it seems that in that situation the call was best left uncalled.

By comparison, the Louisville game ended on a questionable non-call. Now, I don't have a problem with the non-call because it wasn't even a certain foul but that would have been called a foul if it had occurred at the ten minute mark.

Slyder
03-20-2011, 01:46 PM
I agree that these were fouls but isn't that a time when refs are supposed to "swallow the whistle?" The loose ball foul at half-court was one thing because it was blatant and Pitt had a shot to go for the win but that rebounding foul was very questionable. There was so little time left on the clock that there wasn't anything that either team could have done with the ball unless Pitt had been able to rebound it clean. The Pitt player hitting Howard on the arm did not change the outcome of the game at all but the ref calling the foul did.

It was certainly a foul, but it seems that in that situation the call was best left uncalled.

By comparison, the Louisville game ended on a questionable non-call. Now, I don't have a problem with the non-call because it wasn't even a certain foul but that would have been called a foul if it had occurred at the ten minute mark.
I give the refs credit, they were consistant. The foul on Butler wasn't that close. On tv it was clearly a grab. Some refs do, some refs dont these refs to their credit were consistant.

joshnky
03-20-2011, 02:24 PM
I give the refs credit, they were consistant. The foul on Butler wasn't that close. On tv it was clearly a grab. Some refs do, some refs dont these refs to their credit were consistant.

It just seems like a poor way to end the game. The foul on Butler had to be called but the foul on Pitt is the type of thing that usually gets overlooked at the end of a game.

Boston Red
03-20-2011, 02:50 PM
The Louisville game did not involve anyone getting run over or anyone grabbing someone else's arm. I don't think Faried fouled Marra. Mack clearly fouled the Pitt player, and the Pitt player clearly fouled Howard.

VottoFan54
03-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Wow that UNC vs Washington game was great and Drew Henson just about had a terrible goaltending at the end.

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2011, 03:24 PM
Washington just absolutely gave that game away. Wow, who made the most dumb decisions in one game - Pitt or Washington? Washington gift wrapped that game to UNC.

traderumor
03-20-2011, 03:28 PM
Washington just absolutely gave that game away. Wow, who made the most dumb decisions in one game - Pitt or Washington? Washington gift wrapped that game to UNC.
No doubt, was thinking the same thing. I had just tuned in to see that debacle. Thought we had a bracket buster there.

traderumor
03-20-2011, 03:34 PM
It just seems like a poor way to end the game. The foul on Butler had to be called but the foul on Pitt is the type of thing that usually gets overlooked at the end of a game.A wise saying our HS Asst. Coach used in our basketball officiating class: "A foul is a foul." I agree with that theory, just like an umpire shouldn't let a close but legitimate called third strike go for the last out of the game. I think it is poor officiating to let game situations affect calls.

Revering4Blue
03-20-2011, 04:02 PM
People always say the game should be decided by the players. Tonight, the players did decide the game... by fouling.--Jay Bilas, on ESPN's SportsCenter.

texasdave
03-20-2011, 04:32 PM
It just seems like a poor way to end the game. The foul on Butler had to be called but the foul on Pitt is the type of thing that usually gets overlooked at the end of a game.

Why were Pitt players even on the line at that point? Once he made the first free throw to assure at least overtime, they should have pulled everyone back. Isn't that pretty much standard?

Boss-Hog
03-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Why were Pitt players even on the line at that point? Once he made the first free throw to assure at least overtime, they should have pulled everyone back. Isn't that pretty much standard?
If he misses, you have a chance to put back in the miss if you have guys down there.

texasdave
03-20-2011, 04:53 PM
If he misses, you have a chance to put back in the miss if you have guys down there.

But I think there is a much greater risk of what happened, going over the back and fouling. And consequently losing the game. If I am a coach I settle for, at the very least, going into OT in that situation. If the shooter misses the second free throw, the other team is not going to score. The reward doesn't justify the risk in that case. At least not in my mind. I guess that's what makes the sports world go around.

Boss-Hog
03-20-2011, 05:38 PM
But I think there is a much greater risk of what happened, going over the back and fouling. And consequently losing the game. If I am a coach I settle for, at the very least, going into OT in that situation. If the shooter misses the second free throw, the other team is not going to score. The reward doesn't justify the risk in that case. At least not in my mind. I guess that's what makes the sports world go around.
I can't disagree with any of that - I was just providing my two cents as to why Pitt had players down at that end. I know it's happened twice in the last two weeks (Louisville against WVU), but fouling 90 feet from the opposing basket with a second or two left to play is not something you see every day, but as you said, if it happens, the results are often fatal.

Hoosier Red
03-20-2011, 05:52 PM
People always say the game should be decided by the players. Tonight, the players did decide the game... by fouling.--Jay Bilas, on ESPN's SportsCenter.

The alternative is that if the referees swallow their whistles, the players don't really determine the result as defensive players can foul with impugnity.

Boston Red
03-20-2011, 06:14 PM
Not as if then need it, but Ohio State gets a break with one of Mason's best players out sick.

BuckeyeRed27
03-20-2011, 07:11 PM
Get ready Wildcats.

TheBigLebowski
03-20-2011, 07:58 PM
http://www.gatorvision.tv/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=761126&db_oem_id=6500

BuckeyeRed27
03-20-2011, 09:32 PM
Wow some awful officiating at the end of the Texas Arizona game. Texas guy called time out on an inbound play but the ref called a five second clearly after the time out request. Arizona scores and one and Texas guy gets hammered on a rebound put back with call. Arizona wins.

Razor Shines
03-20-2011, 09:33 PM
The officiating at the end of that Texas - Arizona game was awful. Borderline call in Texas to give Arizona a 3pt play one end and then Texas guys got hammered several times at the other end and they let em play.

No excuse for the 5 second call though.

Boston Red
03-20-2011, 10:13 PM
Heck of a weekend for VCU. Shaka Smart made himself a mint over the last five days.

HeatherC1212
03-20-2011, 10:39 PM
Oy, that killed another part of my bracket. Thanks Purdue. :bang:

paintmered
03-20-2011, 10:53 PM
And another 3 goes down. Marquette beats Syracuse.

traderumor
03-20-2011, 11:56 PM
Not as if then need it, but Ohio State gets a break with one of Mason's best players out sick.He knew what was coming ;)

Boston Red
03-21-2011, 12:06 AM
Big East is coming dangerously close to not beating a non-Big East opponent in the second round. I certainly didn't see that coming!

HeatherC1212
03-21-2011, 01:11 AM
OY! Now Notre Dame goes down along with Syracuse! Baseball season needs to start soon so I stop caring so much about my bracket, LOL :laugh: :bang:

paintmered
03-21-2011, 01:15 AM
People wanted madness, we certainly got it.

Lots of bad performances out of the Big East teams this season. I don't know if it's dead legs from a grueling season, the change in officiating style or what. But they didn't bring it this year.

IslandRed
03-21-2011, 01:50 AM
FSU will always D up -- as mentioned frequently on TV, they led the nation in FG% defense -- but they only occasionally know what they're doing on the offensive end. When they're actually hitting some shots and not giving the ball away like throwing candy from a parade float, they're very good.

Johnny Footstool
03-21-2011, 02:24 AM
People wanted madness, we certainly got it.

Lots of bad performances out of the Big East teams this season. I don't know if it's dead legs from a grueling season, the change in officiating style or what. But they didn't bring it this year.

I think it was mostly that the whole conference was overhyped. Their season wasn't as grueling as the media portrayed it. Some of those teams simply weren't that good.

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 09:29 AM
FSU will always D up -- as mentioned frequently on TV, they led the nation in FG% defense -- but they only occasionally know what they're doing on the offensive end. When they're actually hitting some shots and not giving the ball away like throwing candy from a parade float, they're very good.

The game I saw FSU play against OSU really impressed me. If they could have scored the ball they could have beaten OSU. They can defend as good as any team in the country. If they found a way to throw the ball in the basketball they are dangerous. I thought the ND game would be a war but I didn't see any of it because it started close to 10 on a Sunday night.

Earlier in another thread I predicted ND to be an early out. They relied way too much on the 3's and their ball control offense wouldn't be as effective when they were playing from behind. It seemed as if FSU took ND out of their comfort zone and beat them handily.

Chip R
03-21-2011, 10:09 AM
Duke almost choked that Michigan game away. I don't know what Coach K was thinking in the last few minutes of the game. Every time they went on offense it seemed like they were running Dean Smith's old Four Corner offense. Their point guard would get in a corner and dribble or pass it around the perimeter then with about 10 seconds left they would run their play. It was like watching a prevent defense in football. Very strange. Also, that Washington coach, not too bright.

Hoosier Red
03-21-2011, 10:30 AM
I think it was mostly that the whole conference was overhyped. Their season wasn't as grueling as the media portrayed it. Some of those teams simply weren't that good.

Agreed. I think the conference was the best conference out there, but the teams in the middle of the conference benefitted from having 6-10 automatic wins(or should be automatic wins) against the bottom 5 teams in the conference. That offset the difficulty of facing the top of the conference.

Compare that to the B1G Ten, where there were maybe two truly awful teams, and the rest of the conference was pretty solid. The 6-9 teams in the B1G Ten had less benefit of playing awful teams.

So in all, the Big East was better, but the gap wasn't nearly as wide as the records or the media overhype made it out to be.

WVRed
03-21-2011, 10:42 AM
One of the announcers said yesterday that "there are as many teams from Richmond in the Sweet Sixteen as there are teams from the Big East there"

What makes it sadder is that the two teams who made it had to play another Big East team to get there. If that didn't happen, the Big East could be wiped out by the first week.

Boss-Hog
03-21-2011, 11:29 AM
Just to clarify, no one should have had more than six out of 18 games vs. the non-NCAA teams in the Big East. You play everyone once and three teams twice, but those are supposed to be spread out against a top team, a middle of the pack team and a bottom tier team. I don't think six out of 18 games will really inflate that many records and the twelth place team, Seton Hall, very well may have made the tournament if they didn't lose their top player for most of the year.


Agreed. I think the conference was the best conference out there, but the teams in the middle of the conference benefitted from having 6-10 automatic wins(or should be automatic wins) against the bottom 5 teams in the conference. That offset the difficulty of facing the top of the conference.

Compare that to the B1G Ten, where there were maybe two truly awful teams, and the rest of the conference was pretty solid. The 6-9 teams in the B1G Ten had less benefit of playing awful teams.

So in all, the Big East was better, but the gap wasn't nearly as wide as the records or the media overhype made it out to be.

Roy Tucker
03-21-2011, 11:45 AM
I've been quite underwhelmed with CBS's in-studio analysts. They all needed to prepare much, much more. I like Charles Barkley but he doesn't know crap about the college game. I don't think any of the guys do.

They all need to shut up and let Rick Pitino talk.

Sea Ray
03-21-2011, 12:05 PM
I've been quite underwhelmed with CBS's in-studio analysts. They all needed to prepare much, much more. I like Charles Barkley but he doesn't know crap about the college game. I don't think any of the guys do.

They all need to shut up and let Rick Pitino talk.

I don't know, Pitino guaranteed that Notre Dame would win last night

The Big East lacks star players

In hindsight the Big East teams that should not have gone weren't Marquette and UC. It was Villanova and Georgetown

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 12:07 PM
I've been quite underwhelmed with CBS's in-studio analysts. They all needed to prepare much, much more. I like Charles Barkley but he doesn't know crap about the college game. I don't think any of the guys do.

They all need to shut up and let Rick Pitino talk.

Pitino loves to talk thats for sure. But I really don't like him doing the analysis. He just keeps saying "I can't believe offense is dominating this tournament". I thought that Barkley would be awful and he is. His comments are funny but really bring nothing to the table for me. Kenny Smith is ok but he is a NBA guy. I like Greg Anthony and would have been happy with him and Seth Davis again. Get guys who love college basketball in the studio. Its surprises me that with all the resources out there this is the best they could come up with.

Hoosier Red
03-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Just to clarify, no one should have had more than six out of 18 games vs. the non-NCAA teams in the Big East. You play everyone once and three teams twice, but those are supposed to be spread out against a top team, a middle of the pack team and a bottom tier team. I don't think six out of 18 games will really inflate that many records and the twelth place team, Seton Hall, very well may have made the tournament if they didn't lose their top player for most of the year.

Ah thanks, I always forget how the Big East does their scheduling.
The point still remains. The additional teams at the bottom of the conference, helps offset somewhat the teams at the top.

If you assume that the Big Ten as an example has 3 top 15 level teams, 4 other NCAA worthy teams, a couple of NIT teams, and a couple of dogs.

The 8th place team in the Big Ten has a tougher time improving the resume because they have between 4-6 games against top level teams, and only 2-3 games against the dregs(And Iowa and Indiana were nowhere near the automatic wins that Depaul was.)

The 8th place team in the Big East has between 5-7 games against the 13-16seeds in their conference.
As I said, I thought the Big East was much better, and all but Marquette clearly deserved the invite. And Marquette is obviously showing its mettle now.

But I didn't think it was quite as dominant as it was portrayed.

Boss-Hog
03-21-2011, 12:39 PM
Ah thanks, I always forget how the Big East does their scheduling.
The point still remains. The additional teams at the bottom of the conference, helps offset somewhat the teams at the top.

If you assume that the Big Ten as an example has 3 top 15 level teams, 4 other NCAA worthy teams, a couple of NIT teams, and a couple of dogs.

The 8th place team in the Big Ten has a tougher time improving the resume because they have between 4-6 games against top level teams, and only 2-3 games against the dregs(And Iowa and Indiana were nowhere near the automatic wins that Depaul was.)

The 8th place team in the Big East has between 5-7 games against the 13-16seeds in their conference.
As I said, I thought the Big East was much better, and all but Marquette clearly deserved the invite. And Marquette is obviously showing its mettle now.

But I didn't think it was quite as dominant as it was portrayed.
I'll give you that the tournament results have proven it's not as dominant that it's been portrayed by getting 11 teams in but I don't for a second believe it's still not the toughest conference in college basketball (it seems we agree on that). I will say that a team should have five, at most, games against the 13-16 teams in the Big East - not six or seven as you mentioned and some could potentially have four. Big East teams played 11-12 regular season games against teams that made the NCAA tournament. The Big 10, even in an up year like this was for them, plays the same number of conference games as the Big East and using the first team I looked at (Ohio State) as an example, they played 11 regular season games against NCAA teams. Keep in mind that's an up year for the Big 10, as they typically do not get seven of their 11 teams in the field (I acknowledge that the Big East typically, or previously never, gets 11 teams in). I'm just not seeing a big difference between the two situations - the larger number of teams the Big East has vs. everyone else is offset by more of those teams being NCAA teams.

Hoosier Red
03-21-2011, 01:47 PM
Well they would likely play 5, and it's not impossible to play 6 or 4. You'd have to be really lucky to have all 3 of your double games against the bottom 4 teams in the league(7 total.)
Again, it's not so much that you don't play more games against NCAA teams, you will, it's just that this will be balanced by playing more games against very bad teams too. The Big Ten was awash in mediocrity this year. Anyone from 4-9 was a threat to beat just about anyone else. If you were a generic mediocre team, let's call you Marquette, you would likely have suffered more beatdowns in the Big East, but you would also have likely had a better record due to the games against non-NCAA teams being much easier than they would be in the Big 10.

Overall I think we pretty much agree. The Big East was the best conference. But it wasn't as dominant as putting 11 teams in the dance would make you believe.

RichRed
03-21-2011, 02:23 PM
VCU lost their last four conference games heading into the CAA tournament and many of their fans wanted Shaka Smart's head on a platter. My, how quickly things can change.

I wonder if Jay Bilas thinks they pass the "laugh test" now?

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 02:34 PM
VCU lost their last four conference games heading into the CAA tournament and many of their fans wanted Shaka Smart's head on a platter. My, how quickly things can change.

I wonder if Jay Bilas thinks they pass the "laugh test" now?

The CAA is a pretty tough conference. And IMO they have been able to use Jay Bias as motivation and take advantage of their situation. Its almost better as a mid major to get an 11 seed than a 7-10 seed. The 11 seed matches you up with a middle of the pack power conference team. Then in the second round they avoid a 1-2 seed. The 7-10 has a much tougher route to travel.

What happened to Johnson in that game? He looked disinterested throughout the entire game. I thought Johnson and Moore would give teams havoc, not bow out in the 2nd round.

RichRed
03-21-2011, 02:59 PM
The CAA is a pretty tough conference. And IMO they have been able to use Jay Bias as motivation and take advantage of their situation. Its almost better as a mid major to get an 11 seed than a 7-10 seed. The 11 seed matches you up with a middle of the pack power conference team. Then in the second round they avoid a 1-2 seed. The 7-10 has a much tougher route to travel.


Absolutely. It was mentioned during the game that Shaka Smart already coaches with a little bit of a chip on his shoulder, dating back to when he was a D-III player who thought he should be D-I, so I'm sure he had no problem getting the "disrespect" message through to his players.

And I know for a fact that George Mason fans, while appreciating the recognition that comes along with being an 8-seed (highest for a CAA team since the David Robinson-led Navy teams, I think), would've preferred a matchup similar to the one VCU got. Them's the breaks.

WMR
03-21-2011, 03:07 PM
Barkley giving it to Pitino has been hilarious. He clearly had Pitino fuming the other night. :lol:

WMR
03-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Pitino loves to talk thats for sure. But I really don't like him doing the analysis. He just keeps saying "I can't believe offense is dominating this tournament". I thought that Barkley would be awful and he is. His comments are funny but really bring nothing to the table for me. Kenny Smith is ok but he is a NBA guy. I like Greg Anthony and would have been happy with him and Seth Davis again. Get guys who love college basketball in the studio. Its surprises me that with all the resources out there this is the best they could come up with.

Seth Davis?!?! UGH, thank God we don't have to listen to that little troll this year.

Todd Gack
03-21-2011, 03:18 PM
People wanted madness, we certainly got it.

Lots of bad performances out of the Big East teams this season. I don't know if it's dead legs from a grueling season, the change in officiating style or what. But they didn't bring it this year.

The argument about the conference doing terrible in March isn't a very good one considering UConn played 5 games in 5 days and is going to the Sweet 16.

I'm not saying that's your argument, but I've heard it many places. In fact, I think it's funny that fans of the Big East are actually defending only receiving two teams in the Sweet 16.

Todd Gack
03-21-2011, 03:19 PM
The CAA is a pretty tough conference. And IMO they have been able to use Jay Bias as motivation and take advantage of their situation. Its almost better as a mid major to get an 11 seed than a 7-10 seed. The 11 seed matches you up with a middle of the pack power conference team. Then in the second round they avoid a 1-2 seed. The 7-10 has a much tougher route to travel.

What happened to Johnson in that game? He looked disinterested throughout the entire game. I thought Johnson and Moore would give teams havoc, not bow out in the 2nd round.

What's wrong with Bilas?

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Seth Davis?!?! UGH, thank God we don't have to listen to that little troll this year.

Davis may be a smug little troll but he is someone who follows college basketball for a living. He isn't some Johnny come lately who knows little about the college game. Give me a college guy, don't give me a NBA guy who for 3 weeks a year follows college basketball.

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 03:21 PM
What's wrong with Bilas?

He was ripping on VCU and how they shouldn't have been in the tournament. After a VCU win Smart referenced him saying "I wonder if Jay Bilas was watching that game".

Todd Gack
03-21-2011, 03:25 PM
He was ripping on VCU and how they shouldn't have been in the tournament. After a VCU win Smart referenced him saying "I wonder if Jay Bilas was watching that game".

Their resume was crap so Bilas was right IMO. I thought a few other teams were more deserving. I thought the committee did a horrible job this year compared to others, but no one cares anymore.

With that said, Shaka needs to quit w/ the rabbit ears. Purdue's a team that lost 3 of their last 4 anyway so it's not like it was that surprising.

cumberlandreds
03-21-2011, 03:29 PM
Bilas was right. I know I was shocked when VCU made the tournament and I betcha Shaka was too. Good for VCU for showing that they did indeed belong. Better than what UAB showed.

RichRed
03-21-2011, 03:42 PM
Bilas was right. I know I was shocked when VCU made the tournament and I betcha Shaka was too. Good for VCU for showing that they did indeed belong. Better than what UAB showed.

Where Bilas and Digger (who actually said "I think it hurts the power conferences" - a legit LOL moment for me) and Vitale got it wrong was in their insistence that Va. Tech and Colorado deserved the spots instead of VCU and UAB. Maybe they deserved spots over one of the 14-loss teams from a power conference, but instead they saved their vitriol for the evil mid-majors who stole at-large bids from the power conferences.

Because 30 of 37 at-large bids weren't enough. The truth is you could argue that none of those teams deserved a bid but it was the vehemence and arrogant comments like not passing the "laugh test" that were over the top, in my opinion.

Hubert Davis chimed in with: “I haven’t looked at their numbers. I haven’t looked at their RPI numbers, strength of schedule numbers. I hope that’s not the reason that they got into the NCAA tournament.”

That's some great insight there, Hubert. Isn't your entire job to be kind of like, oh I don't know, an analyst?

(Sorry, I got off track there a bit with the Hubert stuff. Sue me. :) )

Oxblood
03-21-2011, 03:45 PM
That Cuse Marquette game was almost unwatchable, refs need to let them play a little, let the game get some type of flow to it. Every time Marq had the ball down low it seemed like they were calling a foul. Terrible job.

bucksfan2
03-21-2011, 03:59 PM
Their resume was crap so Bilas was right IMO. I thought a few other teams were more deserving. I thought the committee did a horrible job this year compared to others, but no one cares anymore.

With that said, Shaka needs to quit w/ the rabbit ears. Purdue's a team that lost 3 of their last 4 anyway so it's not like it was that surprising.

I don't know. I think you can make an argument that if that one of their last teams in advanced to the Sweet 16 they made the right pick.

Who said anything about rabbit ears. Shaka is using it as motivation, thats it. I think he is doing one heck of a job coaching in this tournament. As for Purdue they had a loaded team that fell apart last night. They looked solid in their first game but looked like a team in total disarray yesterday.

IslandRed
03-21-2011, 05:37 PM
I don't know. I think you can make an argument that if that one of their last teams in advanced to the Sweet 16 they made the right pick.

Certainly you could.

On the other hand, it's hard to make sweeping conclusions based on a couple of games in a game like basketball. Truth is, there are probably 15-20 teams in the NIT that could have made the Sweet 16 with a break and favorable matchups. And just about all the teams in the NCAAs were perfectly capable of losing this past weekend. I hate to trot out the parity word again, but with the top-shelf talent leaving for the NBA so early, there are few teams that have both top talent and a lot of experience, and lacking either makes a team vulnerable. There's a lot less difference between #10 and #50 than we think.

WVRed
03-21-2011, 06:39 PM
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189497_10150167194706628_607211627_8675442_7332572 _n.jpg

Boss-Hog
03-21-2011, 08:20 PM
Overall I think we pretty much agree. The Big East was the best conference. But it wasn't as dominant as putting 11 teams in the dance would make you believe.

I think you're right - we can agree on that. With that being said, the only other thing I'd like to mention is that while the Big East's NCAA tournament record this year has been extremely mediocre, their record against other conferences prior to the tournament was exceptional.

traderumor
03-21-2011, 08:36 PM
I think you're right - we can agree on that. With that being said, the only other thing I'd like to mention is that while the Big East's NCAA tournament record this year has been extremely mediocre, their record against other conferences prior to the tournament was exceptional.Begs the question whether their non-conference opponents were the top 1-3 teams in their respective conferences, which might explain the disparity in part.

Boss-Hog
03-21-2011, 09:05 PM
Begs the question whether their non-conference opponents were the top 1-3 teams in their respective conferences, which might explain the disparity in part.
Without digging into the numbers, I'm honestly not sure. The best example that comes to mind is UConn's performance against some pretty darn good teams in the Maui tournament early in the season.

paintmered
03-21-2011, 09:25 PM
Begs the question whether their non-conference opponents were the top 1-3 teams in their respective conferences, which might explain the disparity in part.

By order of finish in conference (I tried to pick out teams that were either in the tourney or are generally accepted to be quality or power conference opponents)

Pitt: Wins over Maryland and Texas; loss to Tennssee

Notre Dame: Wins over Georgia, California, and Wisconsin; loss to Kentucky

Syracuse: Wins over Michigan, Georgia Tech, NC State and Michigan State

Louisville: Wins over Butler and UNLV; loss to Kentucky

St. John's: Win over Duke; losses to St. Mary's and UCLA

Cincinnati: Wins over Xavier and Dayton

West Virginia: Wins over Oakland, Purdue and Vanderbilt; loss to Minnesota and Miami

Georgetown: Wins over NC State, Missouri, Utah State, Memphis and UNC Ashville; loss to Temple

UCONN: Wins over Michigan State, Kentucky, Texas and Tennessee

Villanova: Wins over Boston, Bucknell, UCLA and Temple; loss to Tennessee

Marquette: Win over Bucknell; losses to Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconin and Vanderbilt

Seton Hall: Wins over Alabama and St. Peter's; losses to Temple, Xavier, Clemson, Arkansas, Dayton and Richmond

Rutgers: Win over Miami; losses to Princeton and North Carolina

Providence: Win over Alabama; loss to Boston College

South Florida: Win over Texas Tech; loss to BYU (and a bunch of lesser teams)

DePaul: No quality wins; losses to Oklahoma State, Stanford, and a bunch of others

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what you had with the Big East were 11 good teams, each deserving of their bids. But there aren't any elite teams in the bunch.

Boston Red
03-21-2011, 09:50 PM
St. John's: Win over Duke; losses to St. Mary's and UCLA


Who could forget St. John's stirring losses to St. Bonaventure and Fordham?

paintmered
03-21-2011, 10:18 PM
Who could forget St. John's stirring losses to St. Bonaventure and Fordham?

Did you not read?


(I tried to pick out teams that were either in the tourney or are generally accepted to be quality or power conference opponents)

Boston Red
03-21-2011, 11:31 PM
I read. Those two (especially Fordham) still seem pretty relevant if you're judging how strong a conference is based on their non-conference results.

Todd Gack
03-21-2011, 11:57 PM
By order of finish in conference (I tried to pick out teams that were either in the tourney or are generally accepted to be quality or power conference opponents)

Pitt: Wins over Maryland and Texas; loss to Tennssee

Notre Dame: Wins over Georgia, California, and Wisconsin; loss to Kentucky

Syracuse: Wins over Michigan, Georgia Tech, NC State and Michigan State

Louisville: Wins over Butler and UNLV; loss to Kentucky

St. John's: Win over Duke; losses to St. Mary's and UCLA

Cincinnati: Wins over Xavier and Dayton

West Virginia: Wins over Oakland, Purdue and Vanderbilt; loss to Minnesota and Miami

Georgetown: Wins over NC State, Missouri, Utah State, Memphis and UNC Ashville; loss to Temple

UCONN: Wins over Michigan State, Kentucky, Texas and Tennessee

Villanova: Wins over Boston, Bucknell, UCLA and Temple; loss to Tennessee

Marquette: Win over Bucknell; losses to Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconin and Vanderbilt

Seton Hall: Wins over Alabama and St. Peter's; losses to Temple, Xavier, Clemson, Arkansas, Dayton and Richmond

Rutgers: Win over Miami; losses to Princeton and North Carolina

Providence: Win over Alabama; loss to Boston College

South Florida: Win over Texas Tech; loss to BYU (and a bunch of lesser teams)

DePaul: No quality wins; losses to Oklahoma State, Stanford, and a bunch of others

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what you had with the Big East were 11 good teams, each deserving of their bids. But there aren't any elite teams in the bunch.

So what you're really saying is that the Big East didn't improve since November and December?

paintmered
03-22-2011, 01:06 AM
I read. Those two (especially Fordham) still seem pretty relevant if you're judging how strong a conference is based on their non-conference results.

I wasn't judging the overall non-conference schedule. The question was if the Big East non-conference wins were over the top teams in other conferences or not. The answer is that some were and some weren't. I think you'd agree that Fordham and St. Bonnie aren't in that group (even if St. John's lost to both of them).

I could play the same game for your A-10 that you want to play with the Big East. George Washington lost to 20 loss Navy and 18 loss UNC-Wilmington (comparing the 5th place school from each conference). See how this accomplishes nothing?

Boston Red
03-22-2011, 01:14 AM
You were making one point. I was making another.

paintmered
03-22-2011, 01:21 AM
You were making one point. I was making another.

I wasn't even making a point. I answered a question posed by someone else. Yet, you feel the need to jump all over me for it. Why?

Mutaman
03-22-2011, 02:06 AM
I wasn't even making a point. I answered a question posed by someone else. Yet, you feel the need to jump all over me for it. Why?


Forget about him, Paintmered. Your analysis of wins and losses was interesting. And I pretty much agree with your conclusion, except I think Pitt was an elete team. There is something about Dixon's coaching method that just causes this team to peak early in the year and then collapse in March. It happens every year.

Boston Red
03-22-2011, 02:42 AM
I wasn't even making a point. I answered a question posed by someone else. Yet, you feel the need to jump all over me for it. Why?

I didn't jump all over you. I was just pointing out a couple of other Big East OOC results. How many teams that got at-large bids had losses as bad as St. John's loss to Fordham? Maybe USC losing to TCU?

The St. Bonaventure loss really wasn't that bad in the scheme of things. Plenty of at-large teams lost to basically average tems like the Bonnies.

Sea Ray
03-22-2011, 12:25 PM
I didn't jump all over you. I was just pointing out a couple of other Big East OOC results. How many teams that got at-large bids had losses as bad as St. John's loss to Fordham? Maybe USC losing to TCU?

The St. Bonaventure loss really wasn't that bad in the scheme of things. Plenty of at-large teams lost to basically average tems like the Bonnies.


Plenty. Trust me, Tennessee had a bunch of them. St Johns problem wasn't that they lost to Fordham. It was that they lost their best player prior to the NCAA tournament. It's really as simple as that.

I really don't see why all the Big East bashing. They started with 11 out of 68 teams and now they are two of 16. Those two were middling Big East teams which speaks to its strength. If not for the fact that two games pitted Big East vs Big East there might have been 3 or 4 left. The only argument one can make for Big East teams being unworthy would be Villanova and Georgetown due to their "final ten game" record

To all the Big East detractors, which teams do you feel did not deserve bids? St Johns had an RPI of 23. Do you really think they didn't deserve one of the 68 spots in this tournament?

Todd Gack
03-23-2011, 12:25 AM
Plenty. Trust me, Tennessee had a bunch of them. St Johns problem wasn't that they lost to Fordham. It was that they lost their best player prior to the NCAA tournament. It's really as simple as that.

I really don't see why all the Big East bashing. They started with 11 out of 68 teams and now they are two of 16. Those two were middling Big East teams which speaks to its strength. If not for the fact that two games pitted Big East vs Big East there might have been 3 or 4 left. The only argument one can make for Big East teams being unworthy would be Villanova and Georgetown due to their "final ten game" record

To all the Big East detractors, which teams do you feel did not deserve bids? St Johns had an RPI of 23. Do you really think they didn't deserve one of the 68 spots in this tournament?

I feel that the Big East deserves plenty of bashing. While I still think they're the best conference, college basketball was rather mediocre as a whole. The Big 10, the 2nd rated conference, had 3 teams with winning records in conference. How awful is that? But when you get 11 teams in the Big Dance and only 2 make it to the Sweet 16, that's kind embarrassing especially when a conference like the ACC ended up with three and started out with half of that 11.

As for Big East v Big East, can you assume that there'd be 4 left? There could easily be zero left.

Boston Red
03-23-2011, 12:34 AM
Plenty. Trust me, Tennessee had a bunch of them.

Tennessee didn't lose to anyone remotely as bad as Fordham.

And the only Big East team I don't think should have been in is Villanova.

Todd Gack
03-23-2011, 12:36 AM
Tennessee didn't lose to anyone remotely as bad as Fordham.

And the only Big East team I don't think should have been in is Villanova.

The only reason Villanova got in was because the bubble was so weak this year and they expanded the field. Other than that, Villanova had no business playing in the tournament. They couldn't have played worse that last month of the season.

bucksfan2
03-23-2011, 09:10 AM
The only reason Villanova got in was because the bubble was so weak this year and they expanded the field. Other than that, Villanova had no business playing in the tournament. They couldn't have played worse that last month of the season.

Villanova got in because of their whole body of work. They bumbled and stumbled down the stretch but when you look at their whole body of work they deserved to be included. I don't think that Nova was really anywhere near the bubble as you can tell by getting a 9 seed.

traderumor
03-23-2011, 09:10 AM
Plenty. Trust me, Tennessee had a bunch of them. St Johns problem wasn't that they lost to Fordham. It was that they lost their best player prior to the NCAA tournament. It's really as simple as that.

I really don't see why all the Big East bashing. They started with 11 out of 68 teams and now they are two of 16. Those two were middling Big East teams which speaks to its strength. If not for the fact that two games pitted Big East vs Big East there might have been 3 or 4 left. The only argument one can make for Big East teams being unworthy would be Villanova and Georgetown due to their "final ten game" record

To all the Big East detractors, which teams do you feel did not deserve bids? St Johns had an RPI of 23. Do you really think they didn't deserve one of the 68 spots in this tournament?I think the objection would be the hype montra throughout the season and the clear ordinariness of the teams demonstrated in the tournament. I think Big East supporters saw scenarios where the Big East would have all four spots in the Final Four.

Roy Tucker
03-23-2011, 09:21 AM
I think because of the the lure of NBA money and the plethora of one-and-done players, the highly talented college upperclassman player has pretty much disappeared, i.e. there aren't many superstars in college. I think this brings the overall level of play down.

I think this is one reason why OSU is good this year is that they have some pretty good senior players. I'm not sure how much of a dent they'll make in the NBA, but they are darn fine and solid college players.

bucksfan2
03-23-2011, 09:28 AM
nm

Scrap Irony
03-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Obviously, the Big East underperformed in the NCAA tourney. Notre Dame, Louisville, Pitt, St. Johns, and Syracuse lost to lower seeded teams. Four of those teams were top four seeds.

In hindsight, North Carolina should have been a number one seed in place of Pitt, and you could argue UConn, UK, and Arizona all deserved higher seeds as well. (Not that any posters argued those points when the brackets came out. ;))

bucksfan2
03-23-2011, 01:23 PM
I think this is one reason why OSU is good this year is that they have some pretty good senior players. I'm not sure how much of a dent they'll make in the NBA, but they are darn fine and solid college players.

Diebler, Lighty, and Lauderdale all have a career in professional basketball. I think both Diebler and Lighty will get a shot with a NBA team but will most likley end up in Europe if they want. Lauderdale is a big body and defender that could end up playing in Europe.

Bufford, Sullinger, and Thomas will all end up in the NBA. Sullinger now, Bufford keeps getting better, and Thomas will down the road.

Craft is the wild card because he looks like a very good college PG. If his game continues to develop I can see him getting a shot.

But your point is well taken. They are a good mix of seasoned vets and talented freshmen. Thad has finally found the happy medium of talented freshmen and savvy vets. You can accept the one and done players if you have a veteran team that needs that boost. It happened with the Oden class and now it is happening with this class. Gone are the days of Kufos and Mullins coming in, playing with a young group of players, and leaving a season or two too early.

Sea Ray
03-23-2011, 01:59 PM
I feel that the Big East deserves plenty of bashing. While I still think they're the best conference, college basketball was rather mediocre as a whole. The Big 10, the 2nd rated conference, had 3 teams with winning records in conference. How awful is that? But when you get 11 teams in the Big Dance and only 2 make it to the Sweet 16, that's kind embarrassing especially when a conference like the ACC ended up with three and started out with half of that 11.

As for Big East v Big East, can you assume that there'd be 4 left? There could easily be zero left.

I don't see how going from 11 to 2 is that big a deal. The entire field went from 68 to 16. Apply that same ratio to 11 and you get a number of about 2.5. Why is it so embarrassing that instead of having 2.58 left they now have two?

Sea Ray
03-23-2011, 02:03 PM
I think the objection would be the hype montra throughout the season and the clear ordinariness of the teams demonstrated in the tournament. I think Big East supporters saw scenarios where the Big East would have all four spots in the Final Four.

That sort of talk was clearly unwarranted. ESPN is notoriously guilty of hyping teams from the NE in all sports and I agree that is very irritating. Frankly it shows how lazy their reporters are

Scrap Irony
03-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Diebler, Lighty, and Lauderdale all have a career in professional basketball. I think both Diebler and Lighty will get a shot with a NBA team but will most likley end up in Europe if they want. Lauderdale is a big body and defender that could end up playing in Europe.

Bufford, Sullinger, and Thomas will all end up in the NBA. Sullinger now, Bufford keeps getting better, and Thomas will down the road.

Craft is the wild card because he looks like a very good college PG. If his game continues to develop I can see him getting a shot.

But your point is well taken. They are a good mix of seasoned vets and talented freshmen. Thad has finally found the happy medium of talented freshmen and savvy vets. You can accept the one and done players if you have a veteran team that needs that boost. It happened with the Oden class and now it is happening with this class. Gone are the days of Kufos and Mullins coming in, playing with a young group of players, and leaving a season or two too early.

I think Diebler and Lighty have a chance to be drafted in the first round of the NBA Draft. Both can shoot, shoot, shoot, both are long enough to defend, and both can handle.

What's not to like there?

Lauderdale is big, strong, and fairly mobile. He'll get a chance as well.

Depending on who comes out, OSU could get four guys drafted in the first round.

bucksfan2
03-23-2011, 02:56 PM
I think Diebler and Lighty have a chance to be drafted in the first round of the NBA Draft. Both can shoot, shoot, shoot, both are long enough to defend, and both can handle.

What's not to like there?

Lauderdale is big, strong, and fairly mobile. He'll get a chance as well.

Depending on who comes out, OSU could get four guys drafted in the first round.

Maybe I underrated the two but I see some big NBA flaws in them.

Diebler isn't a good ball handler. He CAN dribble when forced to, but he is more a shooter coming off of screens and in transition. He doesn't drive very well but has gotten better. I wonder if he can guard the 2 in the NBA.

Lighty is a decent shooter but can get streaky. He is a very good slasher and a very good defender. He can defend the 2-4 in college and could probably guard the 2-3 in the NBA. I wonder about his range in the NBA playing the 2 and his FT shooting needs to improve.

Slyder
03-23-2011, 03:11 PM
That sort of talk was clearly unwarranted. ESPN is notoriously guilty of hyping teams from the NE in all sports and I agree that is very irritating. Frankly it shows how lazy their reporters are

ESPN only started really truely hyping the big east after our (at the time) 11th place St John's beat the ever living crap out of ESPN's favorite son Duke. I'm one Big East fan that had 1 Big East team because I didn't think even Pittsburgh could screw up their bracket. My others were/are (Kiss of Death time) Ohio State, Kansas, and San Diego St.

I had St John's in the Elite 8 and they were my only real disappointing egg layers. Also had Louisville but its going to happen every year that in Rd 1 a lot of higher seeds are going to fall through the cracks. The Big East was stronger top to bottom but there wasn't the star power that usually translates into strong tournament play besides Walker at UConn.

BuckeyeRed27
03-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Maybe I underrated the two but I see some big NBA flaws in them.

Diebler isn't a good ball handler. He CAN dribble when forced to, but he is more a shooter coming off of screens and in transition. He doesn't drive very well but has gotten better. I wonder if he can guard the 2 in the NBA.

Lighty is a decent shooter but can get streaky. He is a very good slasher and a very good defender. He can defend the 2-4 in college and could probably guard the 2-3 in the NBA. I wonder about his range in the NBA playing the 2 and his FT shooting needs to improve.

Lighty could get a chance if he finds the right system. His game is simliar to Wes Matthews, but there are a lot of David Lighty type players. Some make it some don't. I have no idea about Diebler. I mean the guy has in the gym range it just depends if he can play solid enough defense to warrent him being on the floor. He could either be a JJ Redick, Channing Frye, Mike Miller type or he could be a Adam Morrison, Steve Novak type. I do think he'll get a shot though to prove himself.

Hoosier Red
03-23-2011, 03:20 PM
I don't see how going from 11 to 2 is that big a deal. The entire field went from 68 to 16. Apply that same ratio to 11 and you get a number of about 2.5. Why is it so embarrassing that instead of having 2.58 left they now have two?

Forgive me I just took a quick look through the tourney fields so my numbers may not be 100% accurate, but it appears as though the B1G East losing 9 out of 11 teams is simply 2-3 teams lost above the average of all the multi bid conferences.


Started With Lost Ratio
B1G 10 7 5 71%
Big 12 5 4 80%
Big East 11 9 82%
SEC 4 2 50%
ACC 4 1 25%
Pac 10 3 2 67%
Colonial 3 2 67%
Mountain West 2 0 0%
A-10 3 2 67%
Average 56%

I think this is a symptom you would see in any conference that had the most entrants in a given year. Because having 11 teams means that your otherwise middling teams have gotten in. The 8th place team in the B1G Ten is playing in the NIT instead of losing to Old Dominion for instance.


A lot of the "bashing" such as it is comes from 1) The general overhype of the Big East all season making it seem as if they were the greatest collaboration of basketball powers since the dream team. 2) The general sense that all of these good-not great Big East teams were probably a little bit overseeded because they all made each other's resumes look good.

Oxblood
03-23-2011, 04:00 PM
Cuse was robbed. Head of NCAA refs admits the backcourt violation near the end of the game shouldn't have been called.

BuckeyeRed27
03-23-2011, 04:07 PM
Cuse was robbed. Head of NCAA refs admits the backcourt violation near the end of the game shouldn't have been called.

It was close, but even if that wasn't the right call Jardine still traveled.

paintmered
03-24-2011, 08:47 PM
After what Kemba did against UC, I expect him to go 4-20 from the field today. Just because.

Edit: maybe not. 29 points with 6:00 remaining.

TheBigLebowski
03-24-2011, 10:41 PM
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

HOW BOUT THEM GATORS!

(this is not a KY-only thread, so I assume this is allowed)

Razor Shines
03-24-2011, 10:45 PM
I was actually impressed that BYU was able to take it to OT with Jimmer having an off night. I think BYU went as far as they could after losing Davies.

OnBaseMachine
03-25-2011, 12:28 AM
Arizona leads Duke by 11 with 11 minutes remaining and Butler leads Wisconsin by 13 early in the second half. Hopefully they can hang on...

paintmered
03-25-2011, 12:39 AM
There's something oddly satisfying about a Duke kid getting dunked on hard.

WVRed
03-25-2011, 12:40 AM
Arizona leads Duke by 11 with 11 minutes remaining and Butler leads Wisconsin by 13 early in the second half. Hopefully they can hang on...

Derrick Williams is a stud. Arizona has had two posterizing dunks and Duke is clearly rattled. They don't look like a national champion team from last year.

BuckeyeRed27
03-25-2011, 01:01 AM
I have a serious man crush on Derrick Williams right now. That kid is unbelievable.

Slyder
03-25-2011, 01:02 AM
UConn defending the Big East Honor well so far. Inspite of playing 5 games in 5 days and then 3 games so far in about a week.

Razor Shines
03-25-2011, 02:09 AM
Wow, D Williams was ridiculous. Hell, Arizona's entire team was ridiculous in the second half.

reds44
03-25-2011, 02:52 AM
How about Butler??

MWM
03-25-2011, 03:23 AM
Hmmm, well I guess BYU didn't wither away in the face of an SEC team. LOL!!!

TheBigLebowski
03-25-2011, 06:55 AM
UConn and Calhoun must have a killer conditioning program. By all logic, that team should barely be able to walk, yet they continue to play at a very high level.

Scrap Irony
03-25-2011, 09:34 AM
Hmmm, well I guess BYU didn't wither away in the face of an SEC team. LOL!!!

Did they win?

Two also-rans (Wofford and this year's Gonzaga team), then a loss somehow prove they're for real?

VCU has a better track record than that.

15fan
03-25-2011, 10:45 AM
The 2nd half of the Arizona - Duke game was absolutely beautiful basketball.

bucksfan2
03-25-2011, 10:51 AM
Did they win?

Two also-rans (Wofford and this year's Gonzaga team), then a loss somehow prove they're for real?

VCU has a better track record than that.

Not really sure where the detest comes from for BYU. I don't consider Gonzaga an also-ran. They had a disappointing season but they have some serious talent.

I didn't watch a whole lot of MWC basketball this season but I don't think they did anything to disprove they were for real this season. BYU and Jimmer were the real deal, and it was even more impressive that they did it without one of their best players. Sure they lost in OT to Florida but I don't see how that weakens their season.

MWM
03-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Did they win?

Two also-rans (Wofford and this year's Gonzaga team), then a loss somehow prove they're for real?

VCU has a better track record than that.

I was simply responding to the comment along the lines of "let's see how they do against an SEC team." They went toe-to-toe with the #2 seed Florida for 60 minutes without their 2nd best player. I don't know what qualifies someone as "for real" or not, but it seems like facing a vaunted SEC team wasn't something they couldn't handle. And I have a pretty unhealthy level of dislike for BYU, so I would have been more than happy to see them get blown off the court. But I didn't think because they played poorly against Wofford that they somehow weren't a good team who could play with some of the top teams.

Scrap Irony
03-25-2011, 11:35 AM
They didn't "handle it," though, MWM. They lost. And, had Florida hit their free throws (11-22, IIRC) and not been called for two absolutely brutal phantom fouls late, it wouldn't have been all that close in regulation.

Perhaps it's my anger at the national media celebrating yet another player as the second-coming of Larry Bird simply because of race. Fredette is no better than Rotnei Clarke of Arkansas. He can shoot from deep range. So what? He played yesterday much like Clarke did last season for the Razorbacks.

If given free reign to shoot as much as they wanted, how many kids would put up those numbers, especially given the questionable conference he was a part of?

His team was given, basically, a free pass to the Sweet 16. They got beat there.

Or, to put another spin on it, BYU and VCU are separated by a thin, thin line. And the thousands of media credentials and words that get written.

bucksfan2
03-25-2011, 11:51 AM
The 2nd half of the Arizona - Duke game was absolutely beautiful basketball.

For who????

Duke looked like they quit. They looked unathletic and undisciplined. It was a shock and I think it had a lot to do with Irving playing. They just weren't in sync with him in the lineup.

But Arizona put on a clinic as to how to beat Duke. They showed that they were much more athletic than Duke. The drive buys were amazing. What I think is even more amazing is Kyle Singlar was given about 3 All American calls which would have fouled him out of the game.

gilpdawg
03-25-2011, 11:54 AM
If Zona plays like they played in the second half, they will not lose in this tournament. But, I don't think they can duplicate that, that was a situation where the stars lined up.

Oxblood
03-25-2011, 12:08 PM
Terrible TF call in that SDSU UCONN game, turned the game in UCONNs favor.

MWM
03-25-2011, 12:20 PM
I'm guessing you didn't get to watch much Jimmer Freddette if you think he was nothing more than a shooter. He doesn't play much defense, but he's a pretty complete offensive player, who didn't play his best game against UF. And I just don't see how you can somehow still hold to the "they can't paly with an SEC team" argument. They were tied at the end of regulation, regardless of free throws or "phantom fouls." So if the margin between BYU and VCU is razor thin, I think you have to same about Florida and BYU, even if the media lovefest with Jimmer makes you want to put a needle through your eye (it certainly does for me). Sorry, but "they didn't win" as a way to somehow validate the argument that they'd get blown out by a good team, or can't play with an SEC team, seems a bit of a stretch, IMO. They showed they can play with them, period! Jimmer is likely to fall fla on his face in the NBA, and I can't hide the fact that I'm going to enjoy watching it happen, but the guy is a spectacular college player, regardless of whether or not he's attained the Derek Jeter effect (a good player that is so drooled over by the media that you can no longer stand that player accordingly).

traderumor
03-25-2011, 12:31 PM
For who????

Duke looked like they quit. They looked unathletic and undisciplined. It was a shock and I think it had a lot to do with Irving playing. They just weren't in sync with him in the lineup.

But Arizona put on a clinic as to how to beat Duke. They showed that they were much more athletic than Duke. The drive buys were amazing. What I think is even more amazing is Kyle Singlar was given about 3 All American calls which would have fouled him out of the game.Duke appeared to be a team winning because of system and coaching than talent with this year's squad. It did not surprise me at all to see that result.

WMR
03-25-2011, 02:08 PM
Duke appeared to be a team winning because of system and coaching than talent with this year's squad. It did not surprise me at all to see that result.

How many Mickey D's AA's are on this year's Doook squad?

Of course, you often get put on that team just by pledging to play at DOOK which could be part of the issue. :lol:

Scrap Irony
03-25-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm guessing you didn't get to watch much Jimmer Freddette if you think he was nothing more than a shooter. He doesn't play much defense, but he's a pretty complete offensive player, who didn't play his best game against UF. And I just don't see how you can somehow still hold to the "they can't paly with an SEC team" argument. They were tied at the end of regulation, regardless of free throws or "phantom fouls." So if the margin between BYU and VCU is razor thin, I think you have to same about Florida and BYU, even if the media lovefest with Jimmer makes you want to put a needle through your eye (it certainly does for me). Sorry, but "they didn't win" as a way to somehow validate the argument that they'd get blown out by a good team, or can't play with an SEC team, seems a bit of a stretch, IMO. They showed they can play with them, period! Jimmer is likely to fall fla on his face in the NBA, and I can't hide the fact that I'm going to enjoy watching it happen, but the guy is a spectacular college player, regardless of whether or not he's attained the Derek Jeter effect (a good player that is so drooled over by the media that you can no longer stand that player accordingly).

I watched about ten of his games this season and about the same last season. Without the friendly whistle, he's nothing more than a very, very good shooter.

He shoves off on virtually every drive he takes.

He's not a very good passer, he can't dribble well in traffic, he doesn't rebound well, and he plays absolutely no defense.

In a good conference, depending on who was around him and style of play, he's a double figure scorer and a potential 2nd or 3rd team All-Conference guy. IMO, he's no better than David Lighty offensively and certainly not any better than Lighty overall.

As to whether BYU is good or not, who have they beaten? They beat a young Arizona squad early in the year. That's it.

Playing teams close means squat, especially at this point.

Just win, baby.

bucksfan2
03-25-2011, 02:42 PM
I watched about ten of his games this season and about the same last season. Without the friendly whistle, he's nothing more than a very, very good shooter.

He shoves off on virtually every drive he takes.

He's not a very good passer, he can't dribble well in traffic, he doesn't rebound well, and he plays absolutely no defense.

In a good conference, depending on who was around him and style of play, he's a double figure scorer and a potential 2nd or 3rd team All-Conference guy. IMO, he's no better than David Lighty offensively and certainly not any better than Lighty overall.

As to whether BYU is good or not, who have they beaten? They beat a young Arizona squad early in the year. That's it.

Playing teams close means squat, especially at this point.

Just win, baby.

I don't really know how to take this. It sounds as if you have a personal grudge against Jimmer. Granted I didn't watch a whole lot of BYU basketball this season but I came away impressed with Jimmer.

He knows how to create his own shot. He can shoot the ball from anywhere on the court. And on any given night he can go off for 40+ points.

I am a huge Lighty fan and Jimmer is much better offensively. He has a much better deep shot and jump shot. Lighty is better at slashing and elevating at the rim, but Jimmer is more crafty in getting his shot off. The thing with Jimmer is he has to play the PG and has to score in order for his team to win. He does shot quite a few bad shots in the game but the more I watched BYU I realized that was they way they played. Their style of play was that frantic pace.

I didn't realize they beat BYU but they also beat SDSU twice. I though SDSU was a damn good basketball team, as well as many other people in this country. I also thought the MWC was solid conference this season.

MWM
03-25-2011, 02:49 PM
Scrap, methinks you're letting your personal dislike of the guy cloud your judgment. He's a much better offensive player than you give him credit for. The ref argument is about as lame as they come, IMO. And I thought one thing was generally understood in the world of college basketball and that's the whole "if he played in this conference" arguments don't mean that much. This isn't football. The lesser conferences can play ball, so I just don't buy that argument. There's plenty of parity in college basketball. You're making football arguments for basketball and still completely ignoring the fact that it took OT for Florida to beat them. If you think it doesn't matter simply because they didn't win, then I'm not sure what else to say. Your mind is made up.

To think the guy who's the front-runner for national player of the year would be a 2nd or 3rd team all conference in a "good" conference is just silly.

traderumor
03-25-2011, 02:51 PM
How many Mickey D's AA's are on this year's Doook squad?

Of course, you often get put on that team just by pledging to play at DOOK which could be part of the issue. :lol:HS sports all-star status is about as meaningful as Prom King/Queen :)

WMR
03-25-2011, 02:56 PM
HS sports all-star status is about as meaningful as Prom King/Queen :)

It's how we judge talent coming into college and to say that this Duke team suffered from an overall lack of talent is simply incorrect.

Their roster is littered with 4/5 star players.

Razor Shines
03-25-2011, 03:04 PM
It's how we judge talent coming into college and to say that this Duke team suffered from an overall lack of talent is simply incorrect.

Their roster is littered with 4/5 star players.

Duke had a bad half. That's all. It happens. A lot of people want to point to Irving as the reason, but I just think they played poorly. They were missing layups and Arizona was making everything. Duke just had about as bad of a half as I've seen. Duke should have played Wisconsin so we could have seen the worst half of basketball in history.

WMR
03-25-2011, 03:07 PM
Duke had a bad half. That's all. It happens. A lot of people want to point to Irving as the reason, but I just think they played poorly. They were missing layups and Arizona was making everything. Duke just had about as bad of a half as I've seen. Duke should have played Wisconsin so we could have seen the worst half of basketball in history.

I want to know how much longer K is going to keep going at Duke. He is 64 now and will be around 66 probably when he catches the General next year... will that be it or does he have a few more after that in him?

I know I'll be really sad when he hangs 'em up. :cry:

bucksfan2
03-25-2011, 03:08 PM
It's how we judge talent coming into college and to say that this Duke team suffered from an overall lack of talent is simply incorrect.

Their roster is littered with 4/5 star players.

They may have 4/5 star players but Coach K doesn't recruit the kind of athletic talent that you need. He recruits good basketball plays that stay 3-4 years, think Singlar and Scheier. But he very rarely gets those difference makers into his program. Irving was one of them but he was hurt for most of this season.

Just look at last nights game and how Arizona basically isolated their players against Duke and beat them to the basket. Plumlee looked like an ogre outside the arc trying to guard a much more athletic player. I went back and saw that Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly were 5 star scout recruits. Neither of those players are difference makers. Neither of those players have much of an offensive game. Neither of those players can guard the more athletic big men. Its more fallacy of the ranking system to say that Duke is littered with 4/5 star players. On this team they had two impact players, Smith and Singlar. And when you consider that Singlar didn't play the way he was capable of they were ripe for the taking.

WMR
03-25-2011, 03:13 PM
They may have 4/5 star players but Coach K doesn't recruit the kind of athletic talent that you need. He recruits good basketball plays that stay 3-4 years, think Singlar and Scheier. But he very rarely gets those difference makers into his program. Irving was one of them but he was hurt for most of this season.

Just look at last nights game and how Arizona basically isolated their players against Duke and beat them to the basket. Plumlee looked like an ogre outside the arc trying to guard a much more athletic player. I went back and saw that Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly were 5 star scout recruits. Neither of those players are difference makers. Neither of those players have much of an offensive game. Neither of those players can guard the more athletic big men. Its more fallacy of the ranking system to say that Duke is littered with 4/5 star players. On this team they had two impact players, Smith and Singlar. And when you consider that Singlar didn't play the way he was capable of they were ripe for the taking.

DUKE HAD TALENT. PERIOD. They just got destroyed, it happens. They ran into a buzzsaw.

LOL you want to get into dissecting K's recruiting philosophies, have at it. I'm sure Jalen Rose could give you some pointers on that end. :laugh:

Razor Shines
03-25-2011, 03:22 PM
Ok, so which is it? Coach K gets all kinds of talent but sucks as a coach or his recruits are overrated simply because they are being recruited by Duke? I keep hearing both.

Actually it's probably that his players are overrated AND he sucks as a coach.

WMR
03-25-2011, 03:27 PM
Ok, so which is it? Coach K gets all kinds of talent but sucks as a coach or his recruits are overrated simply because they are being recruited by Duke? I keep hearing both.

Actually it's probably that his players are overrated AND he sucks as a coach.

LOL.

IMO K is a very good coach and a stellar recruiter. Duke recruits have always gotten the "Duke Bump" in national rankings (UNC gets the same treatment)... doesn't mean they wouldn't still be 5 star guys...

WVRed
03-25-2011, 03:44 PM
They may have 4/5 star players but Coach K doesn't recruit the kind of athletic talent that you need. He recruits good basketball plays that stay 3-4 years, think Singlar and Scheier. But he very rarely gets those difference makers into his program. Irving was one of them but he was hurt for most of this season.

Just look at last nights game and how Arizona basically isolated their players against Duke and beat them to the basket. Plumlee looked like an ogre outside the arc trying to guard a much more athletic player. I went back and saw that Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly were 5 star scout recruits. Neither of those players are difference makers. Neither of those players have much of an offensive game. Neither of those players can guard the more athletic big men. Its more fallacy of the ranking system to say that Duke is littered with 4/5 star players. On this team they had two impact players, Smith and Singlar. And when you consider that Singlar didn't play the way he was capable of they were ripe for the taking.

If the bolded part was the case, then how did they win the national championship last year? For that matter, how has Coach K won four?

I can't stand Duke, but Arizona was hitting everything they put up last night. Derrick Williams took over the game and when he dunked the ball the second time and posterized Singler, Duke played scared the rest of the way.

The moral of the story is that if you play smart basketball and take it right to Duke the way Arizona did, they will fold. The media has built Duke up and has turned them into America's primadonna's. It's kinda like when the kid punches back against the bully and the bully doesn't know how to react.

That being said though, if Duke and Arizona face off again in the NCAA tournament in the next two years, go with Duke. Duke will have an axe to grind and will play their best basketball, just like they did last year against WVU, who upset them in the second round a couple years prior.

MWM
03-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Duke win the whole thing LAST YEAR?

Scrap Irony
03-25-2011, 04:34 PM
I don't really know how to take this. It sounds as if you have a personal grudge against Jimmer. Granted I didn't watch a whole lot of BYU basketball this season but I came away impressed with Jimmer.

He knows how to create his own shot. He can shoot the ball from anywhere on the court. And on any given night he can go off for 40+ points.

I am a huge Lighty fan and Jimmer is much better offensively. He has a much better deep shot and jump shot. Lighty is better at slashing and elevating at the rim, but Jimmer is more crafty in getting his shot off. The thing with Jimmer is he has to play the PG and has to score in order for his team to win. He does shot quite a few bad shots in the game but the more I watched BYU I realized that was they way they played. Their style of play was that frantic pace.

I didn't realize they beat BYU but they also beat SDSU twice. I though SDSU was a damn good basketball team, as well as many other people in this country. I also thought the MWC was solid conference this season.

No personal grudge. (Off topic: why, when you disagree with the majority of the sporting world, do you have to have a "personal grudge"? I couldn't care less about Jimmer Fredette. I simply see it differently than you do.)

I personally don't think Fredette is a great offensive player. He certainly wasn't one against Florida, one of two very good teams BYU played this season. In fact, in four games against big conference competition (South Florida, UCLA, Arizona, and Florida), Fredette scored more than 27 points per game, but he went 40-91 from the floor. That's under 44%.

What allows Fredette to score more points than almost anyone in the country (aside from free reign to hoist the ball whenever he crossed halfcourt) are the amount of free throws he shoots. He averages 7.7 per contest. 14th in the country. As a jump shooter. As a 6' guard. To insist that the friendly whistle argument is "tired" or somehow misguided flies directly in the face of this, IMO. It's a valid point.

Not only does Fredette get the friendly whistle when shooting, he also receives a generous amount of respect from officials when he drives the ball. Because of a lack of athleticism and foot speed, Fredette often has to be stronger than the person who guards him. Fredette is allowed a push-off in order to create that shot. How many times last night did he give a Gator guard that nudge in order to create space to shoot? Reggie Miller, no stranger himself to both the friendly whistle and the phantom foul, commented on the nudge four or five times and even broke it down on film. How many fouls does is he called for in a game? 1.3.

Again, I think Jimmer Fredette is a fine basketball player. In a top conference, he'd be a double figure scorer with a decent shot at some all-conference accolades. But, because of the level of competition, the amount of shots, and the whistle (not to mention his race), he's treated as some kind of remarkable player and POY candidate.

Just in the Big Ten, I'd take Sullinger, Kalin Lucas, Darius Morris, Mbakwe, Buford, Jujuan Johnson, and E'Taun Moore over Fredette right now. Perhaps Talor Battle, Todd Lighty, and Hardaway as well.

Best case top conference comparison is Hansborough from Notre Dame. Are there any cries about Hanborough as POY?

reds44
03-25-2011, 04:50 PM
Ok, so which is it? Coach K gets all kinds of talent but sucks as a coach or his recruits are overrated simply because they are being recruited by Duke? I keep hearing both.

Actually it's probably that his players are overrated AND he sucks as a coach.
You do realize they won it all last year right?

Razor Shines
03-25-2011, 04:55 PM
You do realize they won it all last year right?

As the only Duke fan on this board, I probably did forget that.

bucksfan2
03-25-2011, 05:11 PM
If the bolded part was the case, then how did they win the national championship last year? For that matter, how has Coach K won four?

I can't stand Duke, but Arizona was hitting everything they put up last night. Derrick Williams took over the game and when he dunked the ball the second time and posterized Singler, Duke played scared the rest of the way.

The moral of the story is that if you play smart basketball and take it right to Duke the way Arizona did, they will fold. The media has built Duke up and has turned them into America's primadonna's. It's kinda like when the kid punches back against the bully and the bully doesn't know how to react.

That being said though, if Duke and Arizona face off again in the NCAA tournament in the next two years, go with Duke. Duke will have an axe to grind and will play their best basketball, just like they did last year against WVU, who upset them in the second round a couple years prior.

IMO the stars aligned for Duke last season. It was talked about when the brackets were released but they were in the weakest bracket. Their stiffest competition was WVU which they shot out of the building early and then met Butler in the Championship game. They didn't run into a super athletic team that tends to give them trouble.

I am not a huge follower of recruiting of rankings. But I do remember that Coach K went a long time without losing a player to the NBA draft early. I believe it was within a short period of time that he lost Maggettee, Avery, and Brand early to the Draft. It seemed as if he started to recruit away from the uber talented players and more towards the guys who were going to stay 3-4 years. While that lends to good basketball teams, especially good teams because of Duke's ability to defend, the don't have the star power.

I absolutely think recruits get a Duke bounce, as well as a bounce from most big time programs. You will find players who no one has heard of sign with a top team all of a sudden jump to a 3 star recruit.

traderumor
03-25-2011, 05:21 PM
It's how we judge talent coming into college and to say that this Duke team suffered from an overall lack of talent is simply incorrect.

Their roster is littered with 4/5 star players.
Yea, I get the idea of McD's All-American. I think you are overstating the usefulness for "judging talent." It doesn't mean jack to me what they did or did not do in HS.

I am saying that as Duke teams go, this one did not seem to have the studs that normally are on the floor. It really isn't meant to be a slam.

Roy Tucker
03-25-2011, 05:33 PM
I like Jimmer a whole lot as an offensive player. That 3 pointer he hit to tie up the game late had to be a 35 footer and brought Roy off the couch with a "holy crap" and he can get to the hoop as well as anyone else in college hoops.

Defensively, he's pretty challenged. Either he doesn't play defense hard so he rests for offense and doesn't foul or .... he just can't play defense.

BuckeyeRed27
03-25-2011, 05:36 PM
I like Jimmer a whole lot as an offensive player. That 3 pointer he hit to tie up the game late had to be a 35 footer and brought Roy off the couch with a "holy crap" and he can get to the hoop as well as anyone else in college hoops.

Defensively, he's pretty challenged. Either he doesn't play defense hard so he rests for offense and doesn't foul or .... he just can't play defense.

The shot was the worst thing that could have happened to BYU last night. Jimmer thought that he could win the game by himself and started putting up some really bad shots after that.

MWM
03-25-2011, 05:46 PM
That's the problem with players like Jimmer in college. They haven't yet learned when to feel like they're hurting the team and not helping. You live by the Jimmer, you die by the Jimmer. The other problem with guys like him is that he needs to shoot to get in a rhythm and he has no way of knowing when he's no longer "feeling it" until he starts missing. When he's on, he's unstoppable... yes even in the "good conferences". :evil: But when he's off, the other team is likely to go on a run while he's figuring that out.

BuckeyeRed27
03-25-2011, 05:56 PM
The same thing happened with Isiah Thomas against UNC. They were going along fine and then once UNC started to put the pressure on he decided to try and take over and it didn't work.

Revering4Blue
03-25-2011, 07:28 PM
The same thing happened with Isiah Thomas against UNC. They were going along fine and then once UNC started to put the pressure on he decided to try and take over and it didn't work.

Indiana beat UNC for the title in Thomas's last year (1981.) Or are you referring to the IU/UNC game in Chapel Hill earlier that season?

Revering4Blue
03-25-2011, 07:54 PM
Ok, so which is it? Coach K gets all kinds of talent but sucks as a coach or his recruits are overrated simply because they are being recruited by Duke? I keep hearing both.

Actually it's probably that his players are overrated AND he sucks as a coach.

Not only that, the bracket always favors Duke. Also, the Refs always
call the game in favor of the Blue Devils.

Looking at it objectively, it's all bunk.

BuckeyeRed27
03-25-2011, 07:58 PM
Indiana beat UNC for the title in Thomas's last year (1981.) Or are you referring to the IU/UNC game in Chapel Hill earlier that season?

Haha...sorry I was referring to the isiah thomas that plays for Washington and lost to unc last weekend.

Revering4Blue
03-25-2011, 08:23 PM
Haha...sorry I was referring to the isiah thomas that plays for Washington and lost to unc last weekend.

I should have know that:doh: Boy, do I feel foolish.

reds1869
03-25-2011, 08:26 PM
So far this Marquette/Carolina matchup looks like they are using those slightly too small rims and oversized basketballs from a carnival. I haven't seen that many rim-outs in a long time.

Puffy
03-25-2011, 08:50 PM
I haven't seen that many rim-outs in a long time.

If this weren't a child friendly board, oof, the jokes.........

Razor Shines
03-25-2011, 11:21 PM
So Josh Walton doesn't really miss in the ncaa tournament?

IslandRed
03-25-2011, 11:42 PM
If anyone wondered how the FSU that pounded Notre Dame was only a 10 seed, you're seeing it tonight (currently 29-23 VCU late in the first half). They have frequent outages where they just can't put the ball in the basket, even from point-blank range. Sometimes defense saves them and sometimes it doesn't.

reds44
03-26-2011, 12:09 AM
If anyone wondered how the FSU that pounded Notre Dame was only a 10 seed, you're seeing it tonight (currently 29-23 VCU late in the first half). They have frequent outages where they just can't put the ball in the basket, even from point-blank range. Sometimes defense saves them and sometimes it doesn't.
I don't see how VCU can sustain it, though. Florida State has managed to shoot 20 more shots in the first half (43-23) and VCU also has made 6 more free throws than FSU.

I don't see how VCU will shot 53% to only 30% for Florida State for another half.

Razor Shines
03-26-2011, 03:05 AM
Wow. That was a fun game. I enjoy watching Knight and Harrelson. I thought when Diebler nailed that 3 to tie we were destined for a great overtime.

Kentucky - UNC should be cool. I don't care which team wins. I am hoping for a UNC/Kentucky vs. Butler championship.

Jack Burton
03-26-2011, 01:41 PM
Ugly tournament this year. The best team in the nation lost last night, this will be a battle for 2nd best.

Razor Shines
03-26-2011, 02:27 PM
Ugly tournament this year. The best team in the nation lost last night, this will be a battle for 2nd best.

Yep, IU gets to play the winner of this little tournament for the real championship.

Puffy
03-26-2011, 04:29 PM
Kentucky - UNC should be cool. I don't care which team wins.

I think you take a look at the December game and then throw it out of the window. Neither of these teams is close to the same as they were back then. Remarkable growth by both teams

Razor Shines
03-26-2011, 04:37 PM
I think you take a look at the December game and then throw it out of the window. Neither of these teams is close to the same as they were back then. Remarkable growth by both teams

I agree. That's one of the things that I'm excited about for this game. Both teams seem to be peaking, should be a good one.

Razor Shines
03-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Chrishawn Hopkins!! I love it. I play open gym with him, or at least I did when I was home this summer. He's a great kid. Can do some ridiculous dunks.

Razor Shines
03-26-2011, 08:03 PM
Wow. I really did not expect Butler to make it back to the Final Four this year. That's pretty incredible.

Jack Burton
03-26-2011, 08:03 PM
Butler back to the F4. Probably the best NCAAB coaching feat in decades. Kudos to Brad Stevens.

gilpdawg
03-26-2011, 08:12 PM
I'm officially on the Butler bandwagon. Sucks I'll miss the final four because I'll be at GABP.

Sent from my Liberty using Tapatalk

Hoosier Red
03-26-2011, 11:19 PM
Great job by Butler, but my goodness is Florida the dumbest team on the planet or what.

Up 11, no matter, we'll just fire off contested 23' jump shots. Our big guys are getting anything and everything they want(and putting Howard and Smith in foul trouble) no matter, we'll ignore them for the rest of the game.

The end of the game sequences were painful to watch even as I was rooting for their opponent.

No matter, they're through. Maybe they'll be better off facing Kansas. I'd hate to see what happens when they play a lower seeded team :)

OnBaseMachine
03-27-2011, 05:21 PM
VCU leads Kansas by 8 with under 4:30 to go...it was an 18 point lead at one time.

63-54 VCU with 3:39 remaining...

Cedric
03-27-2011, 05:36 PM
NCAA basketball tournaments are a perfect argument against a playoff in college football.

I hope like hell that the NCAA never goes for a college football playoff.

757690
03-27-2011, 05:37 PM
VCU leads Kansas by 8 with under 4:30 to go...it was an 18 point lead at one time.

63-54 VCU with 3:39 remaining...

Shaka Smart has Ohio ties. Was Academic All-American at Kenyon College, and worked at University of Dayton.

Reds Fanatic
03-27-2011, 05:40 PM
Wow. VCU takes out Kansas. VCU vs Butler will be one semifinal on Saturday.

redhawkfish
03-27-2011, 05:41 PM
Wow. VCU takes out Kansas. Kansas vs Butler will be one semifinal on Saturday.

Very cool!!:thumbup:

MWM
03-27-2011, 05:43 PM
Hmmmm, VCU and Butler both in the Final Four. What was all that talk about "good" conferences?

Scrap Irony
03-27-2011, 05:44 PM
NCAA basketball tournaments are a perfect argument against a playoff in college football.

I hope like hell that the NCAA never goes for a college football playoff.

Good God, why?

March Madness is the single greatest thing about sports. If college football could even approach the feel and feeling endendered, it'd remarkably successful.

OnBaseMachine
03-27-2011, 05:44 PM
Amazing.

And this is exactly why college football needs a playoff.

texasdave
03-27-2011, 05:45 PM
Rock! Chalk! Take a walk! Jayhawks! Anyone that has a perfect bracket this year deserves a million dollars (and needs to stop letting their pet goldfish fill out their bracket).

Oxilon
03-27-2011, 05:48 PM
There's no way anybody is going to have the Final Four right. No chance.

Chip R
03-27-2011, 06:15 PM
Rock! Chalk! Take a walk! Jayhawks! Anyone that has a perfect bracket this year deserves a million dollars (and needs to stop letting their pet goldfish fill out their bracket).

Always enjoy watching Kansas get beat.

KronoRed
03-27-2011, 06:46 PM
If the tournament doesn't expand by 3 teams, like a lot of people wanted, VCU is in the NIT.

kaldaniels
03-27-2011, 06:57 PM
2 Viewpoints on how a champion should be crowned, in any sport for that matter.

1) Should it be heavily based on regular season play, ala college football?

2) Should it be a wide open free for all in the postseason, ala college basketball?

Let's not try to pit college football vs college basketball here....they are just the obvious examples. I just couldn't help but notice the glaring difference of opinion of OBM and Cedric a page back...to me it is an interesting question to which I don't know the right answer.

Jack Burton
03-27-2011, 06:59 PM
Kansas had it right there for them, easiest path to a final 4 in quite some time if not ever. They choked it away, lol Bill Self.

Slyder
03-27-2011, 07:15 PM
Kansas had it right there for them, easiest path to a final 4 in quite some time if not ever. They choked it away, lol Bill Self.

Big Choker this year Pittsburgh or Kansas?

Cedric
03-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Josh Harrelson is a complete thug.

Just want to throw that out there.

Revering4Blue
03-27-2011, 07:29 PM
Big Choker this year Pittsburgh or Kansas?

Neither.

Who else has beaten Butler or VCU so far?

And it's not as if Pitt or Kansas is stocked with future NBA players.

Just my .02.

Scrap Irony
03-27-2011, 07:41 PM
Any run to the Elite 8-- in this day and age-- is a pretty substantial job.

Beyond that depends on matchups, luck, who's hot, and the whistles involved.

I'd say Pitt, as with most of the Big East, underachieved. Duke as well, IMO.

RichRed
03-27-2011, 07:50 PM
Hmmmm, VCU and Butler both in the Final Four. What was all that talk about "good" conferences?

Jay Bilas tweet from a little while ago: "Final Four or out in 1st Round, Selection argument against VCU and UAB still the same. Neither w/ better credentials than CU, VT, UA, SM."

I think it's time for him to shut up now.

Razor Shines
03-27-2011, 08:07 PM
Any run to the Elite 8-- in this day and age-- is a pretty substantial job.

Beyond that depends on matchups, luck, who's hot, and the whistles involved.

I'd say Pitt, as with most of the Big East, underachieved. Duke as well, IMO.

If you're going to throw Duke in there wouldn't you have to throw OSU in there too?

Oh, you just hadn't gotten a shot in at Duke in a while and were starting to feel sick. :D


.........totally just messing with you.

Jack Burton
03-27-2011, 08:09 PM
Kansas, biggest choke job. Didn't face a quality seed all tournament. All the other 1 seeds lost to quality opponents.

Razor Shines
03-27-2011, 08:10 PM
Great game. Barnes played like a Freshman and Knight played like a senior.

Barnes did so well to get UNC back in the game and then just took some bad shots to give the game back to UK. I really thought they should have got Zeller more involved. Barnes will be tough next year though as will UNC.

Razor Shines
03-27-2011, 08:14 PM
My only complaint about that game is that I don't need to hear Jim Nance make reference to the Jersey Shore during a basketball game.

Jack Burton
03-27-2011, 08:15 PM
Such a shame, tOSU would have probably beat UNC by about 20 today. Too bad they looked ahead.

Scrap Irony
03-27-2011, 08:17 PM
If you're going to throw Duke in there wouldn't you have to throw OSU in there too?

Oh, you just hadn't gotten a shot in at Duke in a while and were starting to feel sick. :D


.........totally just messing with you.

Heh. Funny stuff.

Anyone think Barnes will stay next season? I'm guessing he's a top three pick at worst.

Why stay?

nmculbreth
03-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Barnes did so well to get UNC back in the game and then just took some bad shots to give the game back to UK. I really thought they should have got Zeller more involved. Barnes will be tough next year for the Cleveland Cavs though as will UNC.

Fixed. :p:

Razor Shines
03-27-2011, 08:20 PM
Heh. Funny stuff.

Anyone think Barnes will stay next season? I'm guessing he's a top three pick at worst.

Why stay?

Wow. I guess I hadn't considered him a top 3 guy but if he is then yeah, he's probably gone.

Razor Shines
03-27-2011, 08:22 PM
<mod edit to remove inflammatory garbage.>

I may be way off base here, but I am starting to get the feeling that you have something against Kentucky.

Sea Ray
03-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Jay Bilas tweet from a little while ago: "Final Four or out in 1st Round, Selection argument against VCU and UAB still the same. Neither w/ better credentials than CU, VT, UA, SM."

I think it's time for him to shut up now.

It doesn't say much for his credentials. He's looking like a fool the more he brings this up. He blew it. VCU clearly proved him wrong

RichRed
03-27-2011, 08:32 PM
It doesn't say much for his credentials. He's looking like a fool the more he brings this up. He blew it. VCU clearly proved him wrong

Yeah, most of the arguments centered around VCU and UAB not passing the "eye test," because their RPI, etc., numbers certainly stacked up. Now that VCU has passed the "eye test" in the tournament, what's left?

Roy Tucker
03-28-2011, 09:20 AM
I think I saw on ESPN that there were 2 correct final four brackets out of 5.9 million on their online bracketing.

Puffy
03-28-2011, 12:46 PM
Heh. Funny stuff.

Anyone think Barnes will stay next season? I'm guessing he's a top three pick at worst.

Why stay?

There is much talk that he stays. Once Marshall was inserted Barnes game took off and he started having a lot of fun. He also knows that if he stays he has chance to be number 1 overall pick next year.

Right now I'd put it at 70/30 he stays. Once Roy talks to NBA people though that could change. I guess the real odds are "who the hell knows"

Lol

BuckeyeRed27
03-28-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm going to be interested in the ratings for this Final Four. I love the tournament and the upsets, but usually you still get some of the top teams at the end. No disrespect to the teams left, but they certainly weren't anywhere near the top during the season. I have almost no interest in this and I don't think I'm alone. I'm sure I'll watch the championship game, but I have some things going on Saturday and unlike most years won't go out of my way to watch Butler vs. VCU.

Hoosier Red
03-28-2011, 02:55 PM
I'm going to be interested in the ratings for this Final Four. I love the tournament and the upsets, but usually you still get some of the top teams at the end. No disrespect to the teams left, but they certainly weren't anywhere near the top during the season. I have almost no interest in this and I don't think I'm alone. I'm sure I'll watch the championship game, but I have some things going on Saturday and unlike most years won't go out of my way to watch Butler vs. VCU.

If you want a College Football playoff, you need to turn your TV on to the Butler/VCU game. Then go to your neighbors and tell them to turn it on, if they aren't home, break in and turn the game on. Do this until every house on your street has the game on television.

Because what you said BuckeyeRed is what's actually going to happen, and the college presidents and conferences will always side with rating$ over fairness.

WVRed
03-28-2011, 02:58 PM
There is much talk that he stays. Once Marshall was inserted Barnes game took off and he started having a lot of fun. He also knows that if he stays he has chance to be number 1 overall pick next year.

Right now I'd put it at 70/30 he stays. Once Roy talks to NBA people though that could change. I guess the real odds are "who the hell knows"

Lol

I'd say the NBA lockout is going to have a major impact.

When John Calipari is telling his kids that unless you are projected to be a top 3 pick and get a record shoe deal to stay in school, you need to listen.

WVRed
03-28-2011, 03:00 PM
As for going to a BCS type system for college basketball, not even close.

Outside of Columbus, I would venture to say every major fanbase in America would probably disagree with it. Most fans want college football to adopt a playoff, not the other way around.

BuckeyeRed27
03-28-2011, 04:05 PM
Whoa lets back up here. I am in no way saying that the tournament should be changed. I typically enjoy it and other than last Friday evening I have enjoyed this tournament a lot too. Having it set up this way there is always the possibility that what has happened will happen, it is just rare. The winner will be no less of a national champion and they did what they had to do. I just have no interest in watching it.

For the record I would be open to a college football playoff if it was 8 teams or less. I believe you can still get a true national champion that way. If you went more than that you devalue the regular season too much (like basketball which clearly doesn't matter) and I don't want to lose that for football.

Hoosier Red
03-28-2011, 04:06 PM
You're right that they'll never replace the NCAA tournament with a BCS, they won't replace the BCS with a National Football tournament, if the ratings don't add up.

You may not get it anyway, but the ratings for the totally unfair and bogus BCS national title were the best they've ever had, the ratings for this weeks Final Four will be not so much.

Oxblood
03-28-2011, 04:50 PM
NCAAF should go to a 4 team bracket, would be awesome. TCU deserved a shot at the championship.

Scrap Irony
03-28-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm going to be interested in the ratings for this Final Four. I love the tournament and the upsets, but usually you still get some of the top teams at the end. No disrespect to the teams left, but they certainly weren't anywhere near the top during the season. I have almost no interest in this and I don't think I'm alone. I'm sure I'll watch the championship game, but I have some things going on Saturday and unlike most years won't go out of my way to watch Butler vs. VCU.

I'm guessing that's more because your "good" team lost than it is who's left in the tournament.

This Final Four has some great stories in it:
-- Can Kentucky reclaim the throne of Greatest Ever after a 12-year absence?
-- Can Calipari finally win the big one?
-- If Kentucky does win, will Calipari's victory stand?
-- Can Kemba Walker prove to naysayers just who the most dominant player of the year really is by winning a championship?
-- Would a victory by UConn make them the new powerhouse in college basketball?
-- Should UConn win, is Jim Calhoun the best basketball coach in America?
-- If UConn does win, will Calhoun's victory stand?
-- Could there be an acutal fight between head coaches in the national semi-finals? (Both say whatever comes to mind and neither likes the other at all.)
-- Would a victory by Butler make them the new powerhouse in college basketball? Will it take a victory?
-- Should Butler win, is Brad Stevens the best basketball coach in America?
-- Would a victory by VCU finally shut up Jay Bilas? Would that even work?
-- Is the Final Four berth vindication enough for the selection team, or does VCU need to win it all?
-- Is Butler's current run the greatest ever for a mid-major? Are they even considered a mid-major anymore?
-- Would VCU or Butler win, would that then become the greatest upset in NCAA history, replacing Villanova or NC State?
-- Should more mid-major schools receive more at-large bids?
-- Should the system as it stands be overhauled so that mid-major teams can receive a high enough RPI to get into the Big Dance?

None of this mentions individual stories, like Seiko Smith, Josh Harrellson, or the thousands of others that get mentioned at this time of year.

This may be the best Final Four ever-- if all you care about is the story.

Hoosier Red
03-28-2011, 06:09 PM
I'm guessing that's more because your "good" team lost than it is who's left in the tournament.

This Final Four has some great stories in it:
-- Can Kentucky reclaim the throne of Greatest Ever after a 12-year absence?
-- Can Calipari finally win the big one?
-- If Kentucky does win, will Calipari's victory stand?
-- Can Kemba Walker prove to naysayers just who the most dominant player of the year really is by winning a championship?
-- Would a victory by UConn make them the new powerhouse in college basketball?
-- Should UConn win, is Jim Calhoun the best basketball coach in America?
-- If UConn does win, will Calhoun's victory stand?
-- Could there be an acutal fight between head coaches in the national semi-finals? (Both say whatever comes to mind and neither likes the other at all.)
-- Would a victory by Butler make them the new powerhouse in college basketball? Will it take a victory?
-- Should Butler win, is Brad Stevens the best basketball coach in America?
-- Would a victory by VCU finally shut up Jay Bilas? Would that even work?
-- Is the Final Four berth vindication enough for the selection team, or does VCU need to win it all?
-- Is Butler's current run the greatest ever for a mid-major? Are they even considered a mid-major anymore?
-- Would VCU or Butler win, would that then become the greatest upset in NCAA history, replacing Villanova or NC State?
-- Should more mid-major schools receive more at-large bids?
-- Should the system as it stands be overhauled so that mid-major teams can receive a high enough RPI to get into the Big Dance?

None of this mentions individual stories, like Seiko Smith, Josh Harrellson, or the thousands of others that get mentioned at this time of year.

This may be the best Final Four ever-- if all you care about is the story.


BuckeyeRed may be biased, but he's right. The fact that Kentucky's HUGE fan base will save it will be somewhat redemptive, but I'm guessing Butler vs VCU will have the worst ratings of a National Semi-final game in decades. If UConn beats Kentucky, the National Championship game will probably have the lowest ratings since they started counting these things.

That doesn't make it better or worse, but there's going to be fewer people watching.

As for the storylines, there are storylines for every Final Four. It's the teams that get people's blood boiling who bring in the eyeballs.
Outside of UK, noone in this group does that.

BuckeyeRed27
03-28-2011, 06:13 PM
I'm guessing that's more because your "good" team lost than it is who's left in the tournament.

This Final Four has some great stories in it:
-- Can Kentucky reclaim the throne of Greatest Ever after a 12-year absence?
-- Can Calipari finally win the big one?
-- If Kentucky does win, will Calipari's victory stand?
-- Can Kemba Walker prove to naysayers just who the most dominant player of the year really is by winning a championship?
-- Would a victory by UConn make them the new powerhouse in college basketball?
-- Should UConn win, is Jim Calhoun the best basketball coach in America?
-- If UConn does win, will Calhoun's victory stand?
-- Could there be an acutal fight between head coaches in the national semi-finals? (Both say whatever comes to mind and neither likes the other at all.)
-- Would a victory by Butler make them the new powerhouse in college basketball? Will it take a victory?
-- Should Butler win, is Brad Stevens the best basketball coach in America?
-- Would a victory by VCU finally shut up Jay Bilas? Would that even work?
-- Is the Final Four berth vindication enough for the selection team, or does VCU need to win it all?
-- Is Butler's current run the greatest ever for a mid-major? Are they even considered a mid-major anymore?
-- Would VCU or Butler win, would that then become the greatest upset in NCAA history, replacing Villanova or NC State?
-- Should more mid-major schools receive more at-large bids?
-- Should the system as it stands be overhauled so that mid-major teams can receive a high enough RPI to get into the Big Dance?

None of this mentions individual stories, like Seiko Smith, Josh Harrellson, or the thousands of others that get mentioned at this time of year.

This may be the best Final Four ever-- if all you care about is the story.


I thought about your first point before I posted this, but I disagree. While I'm obviously disappointed OSU lost, the fact is since I've been a big OSU fan they've only made the Final Four once and I was still pretty interested in the tournament every year. Before that I was a pretty big UC fan and they hardly ever did well in the tournament and I was no less interested in it.

Those are all fine subplots and some of them are interesting and I'm sure if you are a fan of the teams left they are obviously more interesting, but I don't care about the story. I care about high quality competition and finding out who the best team is.

I think the real story is more so than ever the regular season in college basketball has been rendered completely useless. The national champion is going to be either the 9th place team in the Big East, the 2nd place team in a pretty weak SEC, the 9 loss co-champion of the Horizon League or and 11 loss team that came in 4th place in the Coloniol. Like I said before I'm not taking away what any of them has done in the tournament, but as someone that watches a lot of college basketball this group doesn't interest me.

WMR
03-28-2011, 06:23 PM
-- Can Kentucky reclaim the throne of Greatest Ever after a 12-year absence?


We never lost that throne. :D Even as we wandered through the basketball desert in Tubby's final seasons and Billy G's disastrous two.


"The List"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball#Cumulative_al l_time_statistics_.28aka:_.22The_List.22.29

Scrap Irony
03-28-2011, 06:38 PM
The national champion is going to be either the 9th place team in the Big East, the 2nd place team in a pretty weak SEC, the 9 loss co-champion of the Horizon League or and 11 loss team that came in 4th place in the Coloniol. Like I said before I'm not taking away what any of them has done in the tournament, but as someone that watches a lot of college basketball this group doesn't interest me.

NC State wasn't the champ in a tough ACC.

Neither was Villanova.

And that weak SEC conference had two teams in the Elite 8.

Viva la difference!

BuckeyeRed27
03-28-2011, 07:28 PM
NC State wasn't the champ in a tough ACC.

Neither was Villanova.

And that weak SEC conference had two teams in the Elite 8.

Viva la difference!

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/ncaa-tournament/history/finalfourseeds

NC State and Villanova had to play against high quality teams and some of the best teams in the history of college basketball. This Final Four doesn't have that.

The SEC was pretty weak this year. UK and Florida were both solid teams, but the rest of the conference was average to below average and having two teams in the Elite 8 doesn't change that.

My main purpose in posting the link is that by in large most of the tournaments have produced the top teams into the Final Four. I think that is what most people want to see and despite the interesting stories this year the best teams for the regular season didn't make it this year. For me that makes it less interesting. Butler vs. Duke or NC State vs. Houston is interesting. VCU vs. UConn is not.

Roy Tucker
03-29-2011, 05:16 PM
I think that the tourney is proving that the elite teams aren't quite as elite as they thought. I'm not saying they aren't very good, but I am saying that the power conferences don't have a lock on having very good teams.

The one-and-done players are flattening out the distance between the very top and the pretty good teams.

RichRed
03-29-2011, 05:38 PM
I may have to rethink my stance on rooting for VCU. I just found out Shaka Smart is a Cubs fan.

Puffy
03-29-2011, 05:41 PM
I may have to rethink my stance on rooting for VCU. I just found out Shaka Smart is a Cubs fan.

I feel like I have read this somewhere before.........

RichRed
03-29-2011, 05:46 PM
I feel like I have read this somewhere before.........

It's important enough that it bore repeating. I feel like people should know the dark truth lurking beneath these coaches' exteriors.

Roy Tucker
03-29-2011, 06:09 PM
It's important enough that it bore repeating. I feel like people should know the dark truth lurking beneath these coaches' exteriors.

He does look a little bit like a goat.

dabvu2498
03-29-2011, 08:06 PM
I may have to rethink my stance on rooting for VCU. I just found out Shaka Smart is a Cubs fan.

His Ohio connections cancel that fact out.

traderumor
03-30-2011, 09:58 AM
I may have to rethink my stance on rooting for VCU. I just found out Shaka Smart is a Cubs fan.He needs to change his last name to eliminate the contradiction. All I can do is hear John Lovett do "Shaka Khan" in the Wedding Singer every time I hear his name :)

Roy Tucker
03-31-2011, 01:43 PM
His Ohio connections cancel that fact out.

I read an article about him in the Enquirer. I saw where one of his mentors is Bill Brown. Brown was a player at OU (captain in his senior year) and then went on to a coaching career.

Brown also lived a couple doors down from me in Sargent Hall in 1970-71. Nice guy. Made me stop and think about all the different paths all our lives have taken over the past 40 years. Tempus sure does fugit.

Nice to see he had an impact on Smart.

Danny Serafini
04-02-2011, 01:44 AM
It doesn't say much for his credentials. He's looking like a fool the more he brings this up. He blew it. VCU clearly proved him wrong

The fact that VCU has gone on an incredible run doesn't change the fact that they did not have one of the 37 best resumes in the at large pool. The argument that they didn't belong is just as valid now as it was a couple weeks ago. Full credit to VCU, they took the opportunity and ran with it, and if they won it all I think it would be pretty darn cool. But we don't know, Colorado and Virginia Tech may have done the same thing.

Let's look at their resume. They finished 4th in the Colonial, two games behind a team (Hofstra) that didn't even make the NIT. In nonconference, they have a nice win on a neutral court over UCLA. Their next best win is at Wichita St. Yes, Wichita St. got hot and won the NIT. Then again, they were a 4 seed in the NIT, not the stuff of legend. They also lost at Big East dreg South Florida, lost at 12 seed Richmond, and also lost at the other team people thought had no business in the tournament, UAB. In conference they lost at Northeastern (RPI #178) and Georgia St. (RPI #223).

This isn't to take away from what they've done in the NCAA tournament, which is nothing short of amazing. They've fully earned their berth in the Final Four. But it doesn't have any bearing on Jay Bilas' statements from two weeks ago. What they've done in the past two weeks doesn't change the fact that, two weeks ago, they shouldn't have been in.

Topcat
04-02-2011, 03:55 AM
We never lost that throne. :D Even as we wandered through the basketball desert in Tubby's final seasons and Billy G's disastrous two.


"The List"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Wildcats_men%27s_basketball#Cumulative_al l_time_statistics_.28aka:_.22The_List.22.29


Six probation's and 211 violations and the solution is bringing in the only man to destroy two programs.

Boston Red
04-02-2011, 11:14 AM
I like Butler and UConn tonight.

Sea Ray
04-02-2011, 04:39 PM
The fact that VCU has gone on an incredible run doesn't change the fact that they did not have one of the 37 best resumes in the at large pool. The argument that they didn't belong is just as valid now as it was a couple weeks ago. Full credit to VCU, they took the opportunity and ran with it, and if they won it all I think it would be pretty darn cool. But we don't know, Colorado and Virginia Tech may have done the same thing.




Can we make a blanket statement like it "doesn't change the fact that they did not have one of the 37 best resumes in the at large pool"? I'd say it's not only debatable, I'd say the committee has a good argument to defend its case. It's no secret that RPI is weighted very heavily and Colorado (65)and Virginia Tech (62) had a much lower RPI than VCU did (49). Now whether you value the RPI is, like ice cream, up to each person's individual tastes.

The act of choosing the best team(s) is an inexact science. The truth is there is no right or wrong way to determine who deserves the last at large bid but the Big Shots at ESPN think what they say is Gospel. If they say a team didn't deserve a bid then that's a fact. I'd say VCU's performance has proven that their method of determining the last bid is inferior to the committee's.

Revering4Blue
04-02-2011, 06:15 PM
Can we make a blanket statement like it "doesn't change the fact that they did not have one of the 37 best resumes in the at large pool"? I'd say it's not only debatable, I'd say the committee has a good argument to defend its case. It's no secret that RPI is weighted very heavily and Colorado (65)and Virginia Tech (62) had a much lower RPI than VCU did (49). Now whether you value the RPI is, like ice cream, up to each person's individual tastes.

The act of choosing the best team(s) is an inexact science. The truth is there is no right or wrong way to determine who deserves the last at large bid but the Big Shots at ESPN think what they say is Gospel. If they say a team didn't deserve a bid then that's a fact. I'd say VCU's performance has proven that their method of determining the last bid is inferior to the committee's.

I couldn't agree with you more, Sea Ray. There's nothing short of expanding the tourney to 200 teams--not that I'm advocating that--that's going to ensure that every "deserving" team is included.

With all of the allocated automatic bids, you're never going to get the 68 strongest teams invited.

Revering4Blue
04-02-2011, 06:20 PM
My heart tells me Butler will win tonight, but my head says otherwise. I get the feeling that should VCU emerge victorious tonight, they'll likely pull off the upset Monday night. I fully expect two great games tonight. We'll see.

Razor Shines
04-02-2011, 09:22 PM
Wow. Buter in back to back Championship games is pretty incredible. Even if Heyward came back I wouldn't have predicted it.

Boston Red
04-02-2011, 09:33 PM
Wow. Buter in back to back Championship games is pretty incredible. Even if Heyward came back I wouldn't have predicted it.

They'll have a great shot Monday night against either UConn or UK, too. Obviously both are very good. But equally obviously, neither are all-time great teams, either (or they wouldn't be 3 and 4 seeds).

Boston Red
04-02-2011, 10:58 PM
Long way to go, but man did UK look awful in that first half.

Joseph
04-02-2011, 11:05 PM
Long way to go, but man did UK look awful in that first half.

You can say that again. Horrible shooting, especially from 3 range. I don't have a lot of faith in a big comeback so if the Cats don't start quick they could be packing their bags early.

WVRed
04-02-2011, 11:06 PM
You can say that again. Horrible shooting, especially from 3 range. I don't have a lot of faith in a big comeback so if the Cats don't start quick they could be packing their bags early.

I feel like im watching last years West Virginia game all over again, except with a different team.

UK is getting zero breaks and the freshmen are in a meltdown. Funny thing is, you can't say UConn is a veteran team because they are mostly freshmen and sophomores. Kemba is a junior.

Joseph
04-02-2011, 11:15 PM
It does have a bit of a similar feel doesn't it.

Joseph
04-02-2011, 11:59 PM
It really sucks to see the Cats go out like this.

Cedric
04-03-2011, 12:12 AM
This has to be the 4 worst final four teams ever. Truly some horrible basketball.

But people love tournaments and playoffs for some reason.

Joseph
04-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Lowest rated final game in history coming up Monday night. I'd say go Butler, but I won't be watching.

Boston Red
04-03-2011, 12:18 AM
This has to be the 4 worst final four teams ever. Truly some horrible basketball.

But people love tournaments and playoffs for some reason.

I thought the Butler/VCU game was a very well played game. Not so much in the second game.

Razor Shines
04-03-2011, 12:19 AM
I thought the Butler/VCU game was a very well played game. Not so much in the second game.

No. They're mid-majors, they shouldn't even be allowed to have sports.

WVRed
04-03-2011, 12:21 AM
This has to be the 4 worst final four teams ever. Truly some horrible basketball.

But people love tournaments and playoffs for some reason.

And nobody outside of the Buckeye State wants a BCS system for college basketball.

Kentucky did a much better job in the second half, but they were clearly gassed toward the end of the game. Liggins was the last player I wanted taking that shot, even if he had made some to get them close.

Boston Red
04-03-2011, 12:22 AM
No. They're mid-majors, they shouldn't even be allowed to have sports.

That goes without saying. But other than that it was a good game.

dabvu2498
04-03-2011, 07:36 AM
I thought the Butler/VCU game was a very well played game. Not so much in the second game.

Yeah. The 1st game was played at a reckless pace and with unbelieveable effort. The 1st half was pretty exciting, all the way around. I didn't want to miss a play.

In the 2nd game, UK played with effort in spurts, but not enough and UConn looked like they were kinda cruising the whole time. The whole stretch in the 2nd half where they went without a TV timeout was truly "gouge your eyes out" basketball. Awful.

Donder
04-03-2011, 09:50 AM
Lowest rated final game in history coming up Monday night. I'd say go Butler, but I won't be watching.

I always think it's funny when fans and commentators feel the need to mention that a game is going to have low ratings. Is anyone outside of CBS and advertisers supposed to care what ratings a game gets?

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2011, 10:10 AM
I cannot recall the last time I was this disinterested in an NCAA championship game. And I am literally ill about the fact that Florida blew an 11 point lead over Butler with about 7 mins to go. We should be in that game Monday. The officials made a bunch of phantom calls once we built that lead but we had more than enough opportunities to win that game and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Man, that game is still tough to stomach. Anyways, back to the subject....Kemba Walker is fun to watch but Butler, taking nothing away from them, mind you, is the basketball equivalent of a Martha Stewart show.

It's years like this that cause me to question the validity of deciding the champion based on this crazy tournament. I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say this - the two best teams in college basketball are NOT playing for the title tomorrow night. I might be convinced that UConn is one of the top 10, but no way is Butler even close. They pulled off a couple of close wins and had a bracket shape up for them in a more favorable way than one could imagine. And I have no problem admitting that Florida is not one of the best teams in the country had we been able to squeak by Butler. UF is probably one of the best ten teams but that's the best I can say for them. Even that could be a stretch.

Football is less prone to crazy upsets than basketball. It's a more physical game. If the people crying and whining about a college football playoff finally get their way, I don't think we'll ever see a "final four" without a one seed. Just won't happen. There will be upsets here and there, but nothing as crazy as what happened this year in the basketball tourney. There will never be the football equivalent of a VCU or George Mason in the final four, regardless of how many teams are involved in the playoff. Just for the record, I am not saying that I am firmly against a playoff format for college football. I think it's coming soon...probably within 5-7 years. But there is a lesson to be learned from this tournament, and the lesson is that the tourney format is not always rewarding. Despite all its inherent flaws, I think the BCS system has produced a legitimate champion each and every year (I am now keeping a close eye outside for TCU and Boise State fans with stones in their hands). Honestly, if Butler wins on Monday, can anyone here really say that they would be the best team in college basketball? Heck no. It would be a very dissatisfying end to what I feel was a pretty good year for college hoops.

And my condolences to the KY faithful. I was pulling for them, wanted the SEC to take the title home. Still a great year and congrats.

chicoruiz
04-03-2011, 10:30 AM
no way is Butler even close. They pulled off a couple of close wins and had a bracket shape up for them in a more favorable way than one could imagine.

Um...They had to beat a #1 seed, a #2 and a #4 to make the final four, and then play the hottest team in the tournament.


Honestly, if Butler wins on Monday, can anyone here really say that they would be the best team in college basketball?

It ain't figure skating...it's not a judged sport. You suit up and play the games, and whoever wins the tournament has a right to be called the best team. Just because they don't match someone's preconceived notion of what a championship team looks like doesn't change reality.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2011, 10:35 AM
Um...They had to beat a #1 seed, a #2 and a #4 to make the final four, and then play the hottest team in the tournament.



It ain't figure skating...it's not a judged sport. You suit up and play the games, and whoever wins the tournament has a right to be called the best team. Just because they don't match someone's preconceived notion of what a championship team looks like doesn't change reality.

You're telling me you would completely buy into the idea of Butler being the best team in basketball if they win Monday?

You think if they played Kansas, Ohio State, Duke or even Kentucky or Florida 10 times they would win more than 2 or 3 of them? Honestly? THAT, my friend, is reality.

Eric_the_Red
04-03-2011, 10:48 AM
You're telling me you would completely buy into the idea of Butler being the best team in basketball if they win Monday?

You think if they played Kansas, Ohio State, Duke or even Kentucky or Florida 10 times they would win more than 2 or 3 of them? Honestly? THAT, my friend, is reality.

Tell the 1980 US Hockey team to give back their medals then.

Redsfaithful
04-03-2011, 11:14 AM
Lots of years the best overall team doesn't win it all in the NFL, baseball ... less often in the NBA I think. That's not really the point of playoffs.

Does everyone who is complaining about Butler want MLB to crown it's champion based on regular season record? A 162 game sample is going to show you who's the best a lot more than a 7 game series.

Joseph
04-03-2011, 11:22 AM
I always think it's funny when fans and commentators feel the need to mention that a game is going to have low ratings. Is anyone outside of CBS and advertisers supposed to care what ratings a game gets?

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little [messed] up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to freakin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?


Ok seriously now. This tournament is all about money for the schools and the majority of that money comes from advertising. Advertising is based on the eyeballs on tv sets during the game and this ones going to have very very low ones because there is a mid-major and one of the less compelling major conference schools involved. UConn has never been a 'sexy' school like a UK, Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Florida, Ohio State etc. So yeah, a low rated game matters to some people, myself included and I'm not an advertiser nor a member of CBS. Just because you have no interest doesn't mean others among us don't.

dabvu2498
04-03-2011, 11:41 AM
You're telling me you would completely buy into the idea of Butler being the best team in basketball if they win Monday?



Nope. But if Florida had beaten Butler and ended up winning Monday, I wouldn't have thought of them as the best team in college basketball either.

It happens quite often. 83 NC State. 88 Kansas. 85 Villanova. 91 Duke. 97 Arizona.

And if Butler wins Monday, they will go on that list. And those happenings and teams are what makes the tournament great... Not when the favorites win.

redsfanmia
04-03-2011, 11:45 AM
You're telling me you would completely buy into the idea of Butler being the best team in basketball if they win Monday?

You think if they played Kansas, Ohio State, Duke or even Kentucky or Florida 10 times they would win more than 2 or 3 of them? Honestly? THAT, my friend, is reality.

Would you be in favor of a 16 team NCAA tournament then? That way you would be insured of having the blue bloods in the final four and or final game. The lower rungs of college basketball could play then in a hyped up NIT.

Revering4Blue
04-03-2011, 11:46 AM
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little [messed] up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to freakin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?


Ok seriously now. This tournament is all about money for the schools and the majority of that money comes from advertising. Advertising is based on the eyeballs on tv sets during the game and this ones going to have very very low ones because there is a mid-major and one of the less compelling major conference schools involved. UConn has never been a 'sexy' school like a UK, Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Florida, Ohio State etc. So yeah, a low rated game matters to some people, myself included and I'm not an advertiser nor a member of CBS. Just because you have no interest doesn't mean others among us don't.

UConn=Goliath

Butler(Rightly or Wrongly)=David

Viewers eat that up.

If CBS were really that concerned with ratings, tip off with would be at 8:30 p.m EDT rather than 9:20 EDT.

I'm with Donder here.

redsfanmia
04-03-2011, 11:49 AM
You're telling me you would completely buy into the idea of Butler being the best team in basketball if they win Monday?

You think if they played Kansas, Ohio State, Duke or even Kentucky or Florida 10 times they would win more than 2 or 3 of them? Honestly? THAT, my friend, is reality.

Butler has made the Final game 2 years in a row and they have beaten a 1 and 2 seed to get there both years, they are legit.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Tell the 1980 US Hockey team to give back their medals then.

You're exaggerating my point, and I think you know it.

IF Butler is to win on Monday, they are the champs based on the protocol provided. They would need to give nothing back; nor would the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympic Hockey team.

My point is that there is so much passion and fervor from college football fans about a playoff system. As if it's perfect and every championship awarded thus far has been flawed. I daresay that the BCS has produced more deserving champions, based on the entire body of work, than the NCAA Tourney. But I do get that there is a certain satisfaction that is gained from watching the teams settle it on the floor, so to say. Honestly, I think I am arguing against myself at this point. I really am not against a college football playoff, but I am not impassioned in its defense, either. My ultimate point is that teams competing in a tournament format such as this can produce some very, very random results. Are Butler and UConn the best two teams in the country? Certainly not. Most know that I am probably the most passionate Gator fan around and even I will admit that the 2005 Gator team was not the best in the country - they were damned good, but they also got a favorable draw and were extremely hot at the right time (however, that 2006 team was one of the best ever in college basketball).

There were some excellent teams this season. Kansas was great but they are hampered by the fact that Bill Self can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag in the post-season. I thought Ohio State was by far the best team in the country this year - saw them first-hand when they dismantled Florida in the O'Dome earlier in the season. Duke, Pitt, KY, Fla, NC, etc...all had very good seasons. But Butler? This is a team that was unranked most of the year...lost twice to Milwaukee and also to teams like Valparaiso and Wright State. But they're hot at the right time. That definitely matters and I take nothing away from them. However, if you take the 68 teams in this year's field, put all the names in a barrel and shake them up and re-draw it, there is no way Butler makes it back to the final four, much less the title game. They're just not that good and a championship for a team that is obviously not the best, nor even really close, is somewhat unsatisfying to me. But I hear all the NC State and Villanova fans yelling at me from the background...and I get that this is why the Big Dance is so great. And I HAVE enjoyed this tourney. But I will be rooting passionately for UConn on Monday, and not because I like them. I dislike them greatly, as well as Calhoun. But at least they look the part. A Butler victory, to me, just makes the regular season in college basketball wholly irrelevant, for the most part.

Revering4Blue
04-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Butler has made the Final game 2 years in a row and they have beaten a 1 and 2 seed to get there both years, they are legit.

No doubt.

The fact that Butler doesn't reside in a "sexy" conference shouldn't matter. It seems the only people bent out of shape by this "mid-major" thing are the fans of teams eliminated by said "mid-majors."

FWIW, Doug Gottlieb is picking Butler Monday night.

Revering4Blue
04-03-2011, 12:11 PM
Kansas was great but they are hampered by the fact that Bill Self can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag in the post-season.

So Kansas won the 2008 title by accident? It's not as if Kansas didn't routinely choke in NCAA play under Self's predecessor, and no one was calling for his head.


A Butler victory, to me, just makes the regular season in college basketball wholly irrelevant, for the most part.

One can argue that postseason conference tournaments do more to make the regular season meaningless than anything else.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2011, 12:41 PM
So Kansas won the 2008 title by accident? It's not as if Kansas didn't routinely choke in NCAA play under Self's predecessor, and no one was calling for his head.



One can argue that postseason conference tournaments do more to make the regular season meaningless than anything else.

I am anything but a Kansas fan.....but the fact is, Self does not have a good post-season history. Check out one of their message boards to see the furor.

And I won't argue your point about post-season tourneys. In fact, I find them meaningless.

Razor Shines
04-03-2011, 12:59 PM
LOL. This thread is more fun than if IU was actually good.