Reds' Spring Training Cuts

[cinreds21]

The Cincinnti Reds have reassigned right-handed pitchers Matt Klinker, Justin Lehr, left-handed pitchers Jeremy Horst, Donnie Joseph, outfielder Danny Dorn, and catcher Chris Denove to minor league camp.
The Reds have also optioned catcher Yasmani Grandal to Double-A Carolina. Right-handed pitcher Daryl Thompson and left-handed pitcher Phillipe Valiquette have been optioned to Triple-A Louisville.

[GoReds]

No surprises, but I thought Dorn looked good in his limited appearances.

[GOYA]

Dorn always looks good. And Dorn always gets cut.

[kaldaniels]

Dorn always looks good. And Dorn always gets cut.

While that is true, what would you do with Dorn other than keep him in camp a bit longer?

[Dan]

Dorn always looks good. And Dorn always gets cut.

People, much smarter than any of us, who are paid to make decisions about players obviously don't see him as a major leaguer. To me, that says a lot.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Dorn always looks good. And Dorn always gets cut.

Yep. This was really my first chance to watch him and he was simply SCORCHING the ball. Even on his outs, they were smoked. As for "looking" good...nah, he looks kinda goofy. Gomer Pyle'ish. :O)

[LoganBuck]

It makes you wonder if Danny Dorn is a booger picker, or has poor clubhouse hygiene.

[edabbs44]

It makes you wonder if Danny Dorn is a booger picker, or has poor clubhouse hygiene.

Or if maybe the general scouting talents of those posting on a message board don't compare well to those who are professionals.

[traderumor]

Didn't Dorn make it through Rule 5 this year?

[lollipopcurve]

Dorn always looks good. And Dorn always gets cut.

Reds drafted him in the 32nd round -- meaning 29 other teams passed on him a lot. He's been exposed to the Rule V twice -- pass again, across the board. There's a chance that if it weren't for the Reds, Dorn would not be a pro ballplayer.

I wouldn't be sticking it to the Redlegs on this one.

[edabbs44]

Didn't Dorn make it unscathed through Rule 5 this year?

2 years running...

[_Sir_Charles_]

Btw...I'm not sure anybody's saying he should make the club. Just pointing out that he looked pretty darned good during ST. Over the long-haul, his shortcomings shine through...but for a back up OF'er...he's not too shabby.

[edabbs44]

Btw...I'm not sure anybody's saying he should make the club. Just pointing out that he looked pretty darned good during ST. Over the long-haul, his shortcomings shine through...but for a back up OF'er...he's not too shabby.

Agreed, however the Dorn saga has been played out multiple times here. IIRC, the fact that he was left exposed in the 2009 Rule V draft had some in a bit of a frenzy.

[Mario-Rijo]

People, much smarter than any of us, who are paid to make decisions about players obviously don't see him as a major leaguer. To me, that says a lot.

While true those so called genuises have been wrong plenty too. I can see why the Reds wouldn't have much use for him at this point especially when compared to the other available LH bats available to them but I still believe this kid can hit and hit well at the major league level. Somebody in the AL should give him a go sometime.

[MikeS21]

Basically, what it boils down to is that every team has their own version of a "Danny Dorn." Dorn has reached the very highest on the Reds' organization depth chart that he will reach. And I doubt he would go any higher on another organization's depth chart.

[REDREAD]

Danny Dorn.. the Roberto Pentagine for the new generation :lol:

Thank God the Reds no longer bring guys up like this to appease the fans/generate publicity.

Dorn should be thrilled to death to be collecting a paycheck to play AAA ball.

[RED VAN HOT]

I would expect most of the initial cuts to come from non-roster invitees, and they did. Interestingly, however, were that Carroll and Gil were not reassigned. Carroll in particular is of interest since it was a little surprising to many of us that he was invited at all. As an extreme GB pitcher, he may well fare much better with a major league infield. Gil's BB rate has been awful as he has learned to pitch. To date, his control has been better this spring. Arm strength has never been in doubt. Both pitching successes represent a triumph of scouting over statistics.

[fearofpopvol1]

I'm a big Dorn fan myself and I wish he had been given a chance last season, as I think the Reds could have used him then. With all of the options the team has now, I view him much lower on the depth chart.

[Chip R]

Somebody in the AL should give him a go sometime.

They certainly have had their chances.

[edabbs44]

While true those so called genuises have been wrong plenty too. I can see why the Reds wouldn't have much use for him at this point especially when compared to the other available LH bats available to them but I still believe this kid can hit and hit well at the major league level. Somebody in the AL should give him a go sometime.

If we take everyone in the history of the game who has been left unprotected in Rule V and passed over by everyone, twice, what do you think the player success rate is?

[Mario-Rijo]

If we take everyone in the history of the game who has been left unprotected in Rule V and passed over by everyone, twice, what do you think the player success rate is?

Does it matter ed? I'm moving on.

[edabbs44]

Does it matter ed? I'm moving on.

It does, since from time to time the same old Dorn stuff gets brought up. Like how every GM and scout in the majors is making the same mistake. Every year.

[dougdirt]

Dorn should be thrilled to death to be collecting a paycheck to play AAA ball.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but when I see it I take it was he should be lucky someone is still paying him to play baseball. Clearly the guy deserves to be playing pro ball somewhere. He has a career minor league OPS of .894 and just came off a season of hitting .302/.398/.545 in AAA. He isn't exactly chopped liver. The guy has his warts, but it seems to me at least, that teams are focusing more on his warts than his pluses.

[dougdirt]

It does, since from time to time the same old Dorn stuff gets brought up. Like how every GM and scout in the majors is making the same mistake. Every year.

Not everyone of them has room for him, so not every team passed on him.

[kaldaniels]

Not everyone of them has room for him, so not every team passed on him.

I don't understand this. Every team out there could have had Dorn for 50,000 dollars if I am not mistaken. Every team out there chose not to. Spin it how you like, he was passed over. He was there for the taking and had no takers. Sorry...it is hard for me to let a statement like the above go unquestioned.

[kaldaniels]

I will add the "Dorn is lucky just to be in AAA" a bit harsh...I really do hope he gets his chance someday.

[dougdirt]

I don't understand this. Every team out there could have had Dorn for 50,000 dollars if I am not mistaken. Every team out there chose not to. Spin it how you like, he was passed over. He was there for the taking and had no takers. Sorry...it is hard for me to let a statement like the above go unquestioned.

Some teams simply didn't have room for a DH/1B type. Sure, they passed over him but not every team had needs there. Had those GM's/scouts been running the Tigers, Twins or Blue Jays (all teams who had a DH OPS less than .775) perhaps they would have taken him. So I don't think its quite fair to say that he was passed on because he doesn't have talent in the eyes of all 30 teams, because we don't know that because each team has specific needs and not all of them have a need for the role that Dorn or a player like him could fill. The Reds likely would have passed on a starting pitcher that other teams wouldn't have because of their depth, but that doesn't mean that their GM/Scouts thought he wouldn't be able to have success in the Majors, just not more than the guy/guys they had.

[kaldaniels]

Some teams simply didn't have room for a DH/1B type. Sure, they passed over him but not every team had needs there. Had those GM's/scouts been running the Tigers, Twins or Blue Jays (all teams who had a DH OPS less than .775) perhaps they would have taken him. So I don't think its quite fair to say that he was passed on because he doesn't have talent in the eyes of all 30 teams, because we don't know that because each team has specific needs and not all of them have a need for the role that Dorn or a player like him could fill. The Reds likely would have passed on a starting pitcher that other teams wouldn't have because of their depth, but that doesn't mean that their GM/Scouts thought he wouldn't be able to have success in the Majors, just not more than the guy/guys they had.

And that is a perfectly reasonable explanation. However, for whatever reason, Dorn was passed on...to assert otherwise is erroneous if you ask me. I completely get what you are saying, but yeah, 29 other teams did pass on the opportunity to snatch him up. I have no gripe at all with what you wrote above.

[dfs]

The only other name on there that surprised me a little bit was Daryl Thompson. Again, we all knew he wasn't going to make the team. I'm sure it's a matter of only so many innings to divide up over your pitchers.

[Sea Ray]

Some teams simply didn't have room for a DH/1B type. Sure, they passed over him but not every team had needs there. Had those GM's/scouts been running the Tigers, Twins or Blue Jays (all teams who had a DH OPS less than .775) perhaps they would have taken him. So I don't think its quite fair to say that he was passed on because he doesn't have talent in the eyes of all 30 teams, because we don't know that because each team has specific needs and not all of them have a need for the role that Dorn or a player like him could fill. The Reds likely would have passed on a starting pitcher that other teams wouldn't have because of their depth, but that doesn't mean that their GM/Scouts thought he wouldn't be able to have success in the Majors, just not more than the guy/guys they had.

I think it's fair because the fact that he is but a 1B/DH is part of his package. In other words that hurts his value. It's fair to say that every major league team feels they have better options than Dorn at the position he plays on their 40 man roster. And isn't that the reason any team passes on a player?

[_Sir_Charles_]

If I'm understanding this correctly, Dorn is really bad as a defensive outfielder? I've got to see him play the field twice now (1B and RF). Does he not play the OF at Louisville too? (or is it just that he plays it badly).

[camisadelgolf]

If I'm understanding this correctly, Dorn is really bad as a defensive outfielder? I've got to see him play the field twice now (1B and RF). Does he not play the OF at Louisville too? (or is it just that he plays it badly).
Dorn hustles, but he doesn't get very good reads on the ball, and he's slow in the field. He's better than Gomes, but it isn't by a long shot imo. People have disagreed with me on this before, so take it with a grain of salt.

[REDREAD]

I don't understand this. Every team out there could have had Dorn for 50,000 dollars if I am not mistaken. Every team out there chose not to. Spin it how you like, he was passed over. He was there for the taking and had no takers. Sorry...it is hard for me to let a statement like the above go unquestioned.

Exactly.. I will go a step further. I bet any team could call up Walt right now and offer to buy Dorn's contract for 50-100k, and Walt would say "SOLD".

If Dorn is a legit baseball player, how come none of the stat-savy clubs are trying to get him? There's always a shortage of players that can produce above replacement level at the major league minimum..

[dfs]

Exactly.. I will go a step further. I bet any team could call up Walt right now and offer to buy Dorn's contract for 50-100k, and Walt would say "SOLD".

If Dorn is a legit baseball player, how come none of the stat-savy clubs are trying to get him? There's always a shortage of players that can produce above replacement level at the major league minimum..

Because the liabilities (defense/speed) in his game mean that in order to give him playing time you have to spot him in left/1b/dh and teams are loathe to put a guy without a huge upside into those slots?

Dorn or Gomes? .....the reds are already married to Gomes, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. That's not meant as a knock against either Gomes or Dorn, but reality.

[Guacarock]

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe it's time to explore a different twist to the reassignments. Who's next on the chopping block? When do you see more cuts coming and who goes?

I'll get the ball rolling with these fearless forecasts.

Another round of 8-10 cuts announced this coming Sunday or Monday.

Pitchers who might go: Reineke, Fisher, Gil, Carroll, Smith. Likewise, Herrera will be on the bubble soon, but ought to be kept around a little longer if Bray implodes again and/or Willis is hobbling around, favoring his lame ankle.

Positional players nearing the end of the line this spring: Sappelt and Negron (both have enjoyed hot springs, but will open the season in the minors anyway), Miller (due to lesser work demand as the pitching squad shrinks), and Frazier and Francisco (neither has looked impressive in the early going).

More interesting decisions loom before the final cuts. Will the team keep Lewis, Hermida or Alonso as the bench lefty? Can Arredondo be hidden on the opening day roster or does he need more AAA finetuning before hopefully returning to form? If there are hitches with Bray or Willis, might Herrera squeeze through by default or will Maloney be kept on the Big League roster? And what about Cueto's readiness? Could it open an early opportunity for Lecure? Inquiring minds want to know.

[REDREAD]

Because the liabilities (defense/speed) in his game mean that in order to give him playing time you have to spot him in left/1b/dh and teams are loathe to put a guy without a huge upside into those slots?
.

Well, if he could OPS 775, he'd have a job as at least a reserve.
The implication in another comment was that Dorn could do that in the major leagues.

The reality is that despite gaudy minor league numbers, he's not a major leaguer.

[Orenda]

The reality is that despite gaudy minor league numbers, he's not a major leaguer.

What do you base that on? I'm sure you must have some good reasons or else I doubt you'd comment with absolute certainty.

[bucksfan2]

What do you base that on? I'm sure you must have some good reasons or else I doubt you'd comment with absolute certainty.

I don't know. 30 teams in baseball don't think he is a major leaguer. I think that is some pretty good evidence.

When a guy like Dorn continues to get passed up and continues to remain with the Reds organization it appears to me that his options are very little. It also appears as if the other 29 teams in baseball don't think he warrants a long look at their major league roster.

[Orenda]

I don't know. 30 teams in baseball don't think he is a major leaguer. I think that is some pretty good evidence.

When a guy like Dorn continues to get passed up and continues to remain with the Reds organization it appears to me that his options are very little. It also appears as if the other 29 teams in baseball don't think he warrants a long look at their major league roster.

So essentially your argument is that the status quo is never wrong?

[Orenda]

I'm not saying he is a major leaguer, all I'm saying is that if your justifying your opinion on nothing more than an unanimous opinion of others then that opinion doesn't really tell me much.

[bucksfan2]

I'm not saying he is a major leaguer, all I'm saying is that if your justifying your opinion on nothing more than an unanimous opinion of others then that opinion doesn't really tell me much.

Unanimous opinion buy guys who are good at their jobs. If Dorn is as good as many are suggesting then why doesn't a team try and deal for him? They have held him off the 40 man roster 2 seasons in a row and team in baseball has bit. You haven't see him flipped for spare parts. And you had him signing a minor league contract for the 2nd season with the Reds and not attempt to play elsewhere.

Sure the status quo can be wrong. There are occasions where someone falls through the cracks and another team reaps his benefits. But the odds are stacked against bucking the status quo.

[edabbs44]

So essentially your argument is that the status quo is never wrong?

If you went to 30 doctors and they all told you that were headed for a heart attack, would you believe them?

[LincolnparkRed]

Another wrinkle. If you say the 14 AL GM's missed a chance then you might be right, but most of those teams have a DH that they are paying big $$$ to hit the ball and do not much else. So while Dorn might be cheaper, he probably isn't going to hit much better than the options they already have. With the way last season went, Willie Bloomquist showed you just how low the reds think about his defense.

[Orenda]

If you went to 30 doctors and they all told you that were headed for a heart attack, would you believe them?

Well that is an interesting thought but I don't think it's relevant and here's why:

If i went to 30 doctors I would assume that they would look at my cholesterol levels, blood pressure, my diet, and my level of activity and then tell me I'm headed for a heart attack based on negatives and observable data.

The problem with Dorn is that your suggesting he represents a person with bad indicators for health and is headed for a catastrophic fate. However, many of the results of his tests have been positive. So to me he is an interesting case, which your example clearly demonstrates.

[dougdirt]

If you went to 30 doctors and they all told you that were headed for a heart attack, would you believe them?

Except that in this crazy little scenario, not all 30 doctors looked at him. Teams who have no room on their roster for a 1B/DH type of player weren't going to be looking for someone like Dorn, regardless of their ideas as to whether he could be solid in the Major Leagues or not. That point continuously gets overlooked when things like this arise. Some teams simply don't need him, but that doesn't mean that they passed on him because he isn't an MLB quality player, it is because they had better options. The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau? They aren't. Does it mean that they think he couldn't cut it in the Majors? No, it doesn't. Now, that isn't to say they don't actually believe it, but we don't know one way or another what they believe based on the fact that they didn't select him.

[remdog]

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe it's time to explore a different twist to the reassignments. Who's next on the chopping block? When do you see more cuts coming and who goes?

I'll get the ball rolling with these fearless forecasts.

Another round of 8-10 cuts announced this coming Sunday or Monday.

Pitchers who might go: Reineke, Fisher, Gil, Carroll, Smith. Likewise, Herrera will be on the bubble soon, but ought to be kept around a little longer if Bray implodes again and/or Willis is hobbling around, favoring his lame ankle.

Positional players nearing the end of the line this spring: Sappelt and Negron (both have enjoyed hot springs, but will open the season in the minors anyway), Miller (due to lesser work demand as the pitching squad shrinks), and Frazier and Francisco (neither has looked impressive in the early going).

More interesting decisions loom before the final cuts. Will the team keep Lewis, Hermida or Alonso as the bench lefty? Can Arredondo be hidden on the opening day roster or does he need more AAA finetuning before hopefully returning to form? If there are hitches with Bray or Willis, might Herrera squeeze through by default or will Maloney be kept on the Big League roster? And what about Cueto's readiness? Could it open an early opportunity for Lecure? Inquiring minds want to know.

OK, Guacarock, good for you. Better than another post about draggin' Danny Dorn through the dirt again.

If Bray doesn't get his act together and Willis is healthy, I could see Bray in AAA. I think Arredondo has always been pointed to open the season in L'ville. Honestly, if Cueto or Volquez can't go I think Maloney has a chance to beat out Leake for the 5th spot. Maloney won't light up your TV set with stats but he does get batters out. In the short time he's appeared in the Bigs he's been solid. I would hope that the Reds wouldn't hesitate to keep him around if someone has to go to extended spring training.

And wouldn't it be a hoot to see one batter facing Danny Ray at about 83 mph and then seeing Aroldis at 105 mph. LOL

Rem

[mth123]

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe it's time to explore a different twist to the reassignments. Who's next on the chopping block? When do you see more cuts coming and who goes?

I'll get the ball rolling with these fearless forecasts.

Another round of 8-10 cuts announced this coming Sunday or Monday.

Pitchers who might go: Reineke, Fisher, Gil, Carroll, Smith. Likewise, Herrera will be on the bubble soon, but ought to be kept around a little longer if Bray implodes again and/or Willis is hobbling around, favoring his lame ankle.

Positional players nearing the end of the line this spring: Sappelt and Negron (both have enjoyed hot springs, but will open the season in the minors anyway), Miller (due to lesser work demand as the pitching squad shrinks), and Frazier and Francisco (neither has looked impressive in the early going).

More interesting decisions loom before the final cuts. Will the team keep Lewis, Hermida or Alonso as the bench lefty? Can Arredondo be hidden on the opening day roster or does he need more AAA finetuning before hopefully returning to form? If there are hitches with Bray or Willis, might Herrera squeeze through by default or will Maloney be kept on the Big League roster? And what about Cueto's readiness? Could it open an early opportunity for Lecure? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think the next cut won't be so deep. Alonso, Frazier, Reinecke, Mesoraco, Negron. Until we see how things play out with Cueto and Willis, I think they'll keep some pitchers around.

[Guacarock]

I think the next cut won't be so deep. Alonso, Frazier, Reinecke, Mesoraco, Negron. Until we see how things play out with Cueto and Willis, I think they'll keep some pitchers around.

You might be right: The next cut might not be as deep as I projected. But I'm convinced that Alonso will survive this particular round for a few reasons.

1. He's smoking the ball this spring and has shown marked improvement defensively playing LF.

2. The Reds have invested more time and money in him than Lewis, Frazier or Hermida, or for that matter, Francisco.

3. If Gomes needs a goose come May, who better to supply it than a hard-hitting lefty with both power and poise at the plate (unlike, say, Francisco who has power but often looks clumsy at the plate, lunging at off-speed pitches).

The main impediment for Alonso? The Reds might still prefer him playing everyday in Louisville than warming the bench in Cincy. It really depends on whether he's perceived more as an eventual starter for the Reds or instead as a possible trading chit this summer or next off-season. I suspect that we'll know which way the wind blows soon enough.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe it's time to explore a different twist to the reassignments. Who's next on the chopping block? When do you see more cuts coming and who goes?

I'll get the ball rolling with these fearless forecasts.

Another round of 8-10 cuts announced this coming Sunday or Monday.

Pitchers who might go: Reineke, Fisher, Gil, Carroll, Smith. Likewise, Herrera will be on the bubble soon, but ought to be kept around a little longer if Bray implodes again and/or Willis is hobbling around, favoring his lame ankle.

Positional players nearing the end of the line this spring: Sappelt and Negron (both have enjoyed hot springs, but will open the season in the minors anyway), Miller (due to lesser work demand as the pitching squad shrinks), and Frazier and Francisco (neither has looked impressive in the early going).

More interesting decisions loom before the final cuts. Will the team keep Lewis, Hermida or Alonso as the bench lefty? Can Arredondo be hidden on the opening day roster or does he need more AAA finetuning before hopefully returning to form? If there are hitches with Bray or Willis, might Herrera squeeze through by default or will Maloney be kept on the Big League roster? And what about Cueto's readiness? Could it open an early opportunity for Lecure? Inquiring minds want to know.

Solid post with many intriguing points and questions.

[mth123]

You might be right: The next cut might not be as deep as I projected. But I'm convinced that Alonso will survive this particular round for a few reasons.

1. He's smoking the ball this spring and has shown marked improvement defensively playing LF.

2. The Reds have invested more time and money in him than Lewis, Frazier or Hermida, or for that matter, Francisco.

3. If Gomes needs a goose come May, who better to supply it than a hard-hitting lefty with both power and poise at the plate (unlike, say, Francisco who has power but often looks clumsy at the plate, lunging at off-speed pitches).

The main impediment for Alonso? The Reds might still prefer him playing everyday in Louisville than warming the bench in Cincy. It really depends on whether he's perceived more as an eventual starter for the Reds or instead as a possible trading chit this summer or next off-season. I suspect that we'll know which way the wind blows soon enough.

I wish Alonso had more of a shot, but I just don't see him being a serious candidate for LF until he gets more reps. I'm guessing he goes down and plays LF regularly in minor league games Spring games. If he could play LF, even in a platoon, it would be a huge boon to the team.

[Blitz Dorsey]

How has Alonso looked defensively in LF so far this spring?

[Guacarock]

How has Alonso looked defensively in LF so far this spring?

He's been playing a lot this spring but exclusively at 1B in real-game situations while working out extensively in LF under the guidance of Billy Hatcher. I saw him play a few games last week in Arizona and he definitely looked more fluid than last year. That said, I just saw that he had collected errors both Sunday and Monday at 1B -- so the defensive bugaboo might not be off his back yet.

Will he return to Louisville this summer? Probably. But I see him being among the final cuts this year. He's looking mighty special at the plate, finally living up to all that early pre-injury hype. The Reds' brass are going to want to take a real long and close look at him -- not necessarily because he'll make the final cut, but because they need to know precisely what they've got and how awesome of a hitter he might well become.

[REDREAD]

Except that in this crazy little scenario, not all 30 doctors looked at him. Teams who have no room on their roster for a 1B/DH type of player weren't going to be looking for someone like Dorn, regardless of their ideas as to whether he could be solid in the Major Leagues or not. That point continuously gets overlooked when things like this arise. Some teams simply don't need him, but that doesn't mean that they passed on him because he isn't an MLB quality player, it is because they had better options. The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau? They aren't. Does it mean that they think he couldn't cut it in the Majors? No, it doesn't. Now, that isn't to say they don't actually believe it, but we don't know one way or another what they believe based on the fact that they didn't select him.

Ok, I'm looking over the Twins 2010 roster.. Let's assume you are right, Dorn could OPS around 775.. That's not an upgrade to Jason Repko (671 OPS)?

Cleveland and Piitsburg couldn't use a defensively challenged LF/1b/DH that could OPS 775 and only makes the minimum? Come on .. just about every team in the league could use a 775 OPS bat off the bench.

As soon as the Reds decide to not use Dorn as AAA insurance, his career is over. He's just not talented enough..

[dougdirt]

Ok, I'm looking over the Twins 2010 roster.. Let's assume you are right, Dorn could OPS around 775.. That's not an upgrade to Jason Repko (671 OPS)?

Cleveland and Piitsburg couldn't use a defensively challenged LF/1b/DH that could OPS 775 and only makes the minimum? Come on .. just about every team in the league could use a 775 OPS bat off the bench.

As soon as the Reds decide to not use Dorn as AAA insurance, his career is over. He's just not talented enough..

Repko plays all three outfield spots. Dorn might be able to play left field. Those two are two entirely different roster spots. They wouldn't be competing for the same place on a roster.

[edabbs44]

Except that in this crazy little scenario, not all 30 doctors looked at him. Teams who have no room on their roster for a 1B/DH type of player weren't going to be looking for someone like Dorn, regardless of their ideas as to whether he could be solid in the Major Leagues or not. That point continuously gets overlooked when things like this arise. Some teams simply don't need him, but that doesn't mean that they passed on him because he isn't an MLB quality player, it is because they had better options. The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau? They aren't. Does it mean that they think he couldn't cut it in the Majors? No, it doesn't. Now, that isn't to say they don't actually believe it, but we don't know one way or another what they believe based on the fact that they didn't select him.

So maybe 20-25 doctors looked at him and all agreed on the diagnosis, while 5-10 were out of the office that day? Still doesn't make me think that it is likely the league made a mistake.

[Redsfan320]

Repko plays all three outfield spots. Dorn might be able to play left field. Those two are two entirely different roster spots. They wouldn't be competing for the same place on a roster.

Yeah, Repko's like a 4th OF type. Dorn would be competing with Jason Kubel for a roster spot. He's a LF/RF/DH type who OPS'ed .750 last year.

320

[edabbs44]

Well that is an interesting thought but I don't think it's relevant and here's why:

If i went to 30 doctors I would assume that they would look at my cholesterol levels, blood pressure, my diet, and my level of activity and then tell me I'm headed for a heart attack based on negatives and observable data.

The problem with Dorn is that your suggesting he represents a person with bad indicators for health and is headed for a catastrophic fate. However, many of the results of his tests have been positive. So to me he is an interesting case, which your example clearly demonstrates.

That's kind of my point exactly. The doctors have the better skills and data in making a diagnosis.

[Griffey012]

Ok, I'm looking over the Twins 2010 roster.. Let's assume you are right, Dorn could OPS around 775.. That's not an upgrade to Jason Repko (671 OPS)?

Cleveland and Piitsburg couldn't use a defensively challenged LF/1b/DH that could OPS 775 and only makes the minimum? Come on .. just about every team in the league could use a 775 OPS bat off the bench.

As soon as the Reds decide to not use Dorn as AAA insurance, his career is over. He's just not talented enough..

That's a pretty harsh assessment. As long as he is putting up the type of numbers he has in AAA he will have a decent enough career in AAA, shoot he will probably end up in Japan and make a nice payday. His career is far from over.

[dougdirt]

So maybe 20-25 doctors looked at him and all agreed on the diagnosis, while 5-10 were out of the office that day? Still doesn't make me think that it is likely the league made a mistake.

I don't think it was even that many "doctors".

At the end of it all, do you really think that a 21 year old pitcher who never made it out of Low A was a better Rule 5 pick than Danny Dorn was? Is that player really better prepared to spend a full season on a 25 man roster of a Major League team than Dorn is? Because a guy just like that was taken. Sure, he is a better prospect, but in no way, shape or form is that kid a better player right now than Danny Dorn is. Teams often try to find a "steal" in these things and often overlook the "solid but unspectacular guy who could marginally help us" guy.

[edabbs44]

I don't think it was even that many "doctors".

At the end of it all, do you really think that a 21 year old pitcher who never made it out of Low A was a better Rule 5 pick than Danny Dorn was? Is that player really better prepared to spend a full season on a 25 man roster of a Major League team than Dorn is? Because a guy just like that was taken. Sure, he is a better prospect, but in no way, shape or form is that kid a better player right now than Danny Dorn is. Teams often try to find a "steal" in these things and often overlook the "solid but unspectacular guy who could marginally help us" guy.

It's really hard to argue against all of baseball. Spin it any way you wish, but if the entire league passed on the guy twice, I'm gonna say that the odds are against him.

[dougdirt]

It's really hard to argue against all of baseball. Spin it any way you wish, but if the entire league passed on the guy twice, I'm gonna say that the odds are against him.

Except that the entire league DIDN't pass on him twice. The entire league didn't even look at him in quite a bunch of cases I would imagine. A guy doesn't OPS .900 for his age appropriate minor league career because he is a scrub. I am not saying the guy is even going to be a regular, but I don't care what him going undrafted in the Rule 5 "says" to you, that guy could absolutely provide solid value to quite a few Major League teams right now if used properly (against RHP).

[757690]

Here are some guys who at Dorn's age OPS'ed around .900 in AAA:

Russ Mitchell
Cole Garner
Jesus Guzman
John Lindsey
Chris Lubanski
Mark Hamilton
Joe Koshasky
Adam Stern
Mike Baxter
Mark Trumbo
Tug Hulett
Andy Abad (remember him?)

I stopped looking after around 10 minutes, but I am sure I could find more. Some of these guys got a cup of coffee, but maybe some of them will breakthrough. But I think every team always has a guy like Dorn, a guy who can hit AAA pitching, but for some reason, doesn't project as a major leaguer.

[kaldaniels]

If a player goes undrafted in the NFL draft every team passed on him. I really take issue with trying to slide into this debate the alleged fact that teams did not "pass" on Dorn. You made an astute observation on this earlier Doug and I gave you credit. But it just seems petty to continue to pretend that Dorn was not passed on. Reasons do not matter on this point, it's just factual. Any team could have plucked Dorn up...but they passed.

[GOYA]

It's true that no team chose Dorn in the Rule 5. Twice. But that does not mean that no team thinks he is a major leaguer. That's a big jump in logic.

[dougdirt]

It's true that no team chose Dorn in the Rule 5. Twice. But that does not mean that no team thinks he is a major leaguer. That's a big jump in logic.

Correct. This is all that I have been trying to say.

[Ron Madden]

If a player goes undrafted in the NFL draft every team passed on him. I really take issue with trying to slide into this debate the alleged fact that teams did not "pass" on Dorn. You made an astute observation on this earlier Doug and I gave you credit. But it just seems petty to continue to pretend that Dorn was not passed on. Reasons do not matter on this point, it's just factual. Any team could have plucked Dorn up...but they passed.

The same can be said about Jonny Gomes.

Any club could have signed Jonny Gomes after the 2008 season, none did untill the Reds signed him to a minor league deal.

Any club could have signed him after the 2009 season but they all passed, untill the Reds brought him back just before spring training.

[edabbs44]

It's true that no team chose Dorn in the Rule 5. Twice. But that does not mean that no team thinks he is a major leaguer. That's a big jump in logic.

Correct. It means that no team felt that he was worth a roster spot on their team over the past 2 years. And with how teams are currently managing their organizations and costs, I think that says something.

[edabbs44]

The same can be said about Jonny Gomes.

Any club could have signed Jonny Gomes after the 2008 season, none did untill the Reds signed him to a minor league deal.

Any club could have signed him after the 2009 season but they all passed, untill the Reds brought him back just before spring training.

Jocketty signed Gomes. Twice. No GM took Dorn.

[GoReds]

I'd think Dorn's problem is that he is simply not multi-faceted. There are a lot of slow-footed, defensively challenged, one-trick ponies out there, of which Dorn is probably one. AL teams are more likely to use a veteran on the downside to fill the DH spot than a young guy, although I'm not sure exactly why.

I like what I saw in Dorn - at the plate. For what the Reds are putting on the field, they really don't pair well (although it would have been interesting see a platoon with Gomes in left). I'm thinking Dorn's best career move would be to learn Japanese.

[kaldaniels]

I agree completely with the point that it is very possible that there are GMs who do think Dorn is a major leaguer. But they still passed on him. I struggle to keep quiet when I see it argued otherwise on that second point.

[traderumor]

Except that in this crazy little scenario, not all 30 doctors looked at him. Teams who have no room on their roster for a 1B/DH type of player weren't going to be looking for someone like Dorn, regardless of their ideas as to whether he could be solid in the Major Leagues or not. That point continuously gets overlooked when things like this arise. Some teams simply don't need him, but that doesn't mean that they passed on him because he isn't an MLB quality player, it is because they had better options. The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau? They aren't. Does it mean that they think he couldn't cut it in the Majors? No, it doesn't. Now, that isn't to say they don't actually believe it, but we don't know one way or another what they believe based on the fact that they didn't select him.I think you get where folks are coming from when they come at a player like Danny Dorn as being held back by his current organization, yet when other organizations have had the chance to pluck up a player that some contend is major league ready, they have passed. That is the point and it is valid. It is not just the Reds who have no place on a major league roster for that player, other teams have made the same conclusion when offered the opportunity to purchase this player.

[bucksfan2]

Except that in this crazy little scenario, not all 30 doctors looked at him. Teams who have no room on their roster for a 1B/DH type of player weren't going to be looking for someone like Dorn, regardless of their ideas as to whether he could be solid in the Major Leagues or not. That point continuously gets overlooked when things like this arise. Some teams simply don't need him, but that doesn't mean that they passed on him because he isn't an MLB quality player, it is because they had better options. The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau? They aren't. Does it mean that they think he couldn't cut it in the Majors? No, it doesn't. Now, that isn't to say they don't actually believe it, but we don't know one way or another what they believe based on the fact that they didn't select him.

Its all about talent. There was a time when the Reds had 2 2b's on their roster and still took a stab at Brandon Phillips because he was talented. If you think a guy can play you give him a chance. Every team in baseball wants to infuse their team with talent. If Dorn is as good as you say he is I can't understand why any team wouldn't want his services.

As for the Twins, if Dorn is as good as people think, then he would have been a nice fit for them when Morneau went down for the second half of the season. All it would have taken would have probably been cash. Or any team that needed a bat because of injury could have had Dorn for a few bags of balls.

We can hold out hope that Dorn is some kind of hidden gem that just hasn't been given a chance to play. But I think the reality is setting in that he is a minor league lifer who will continued to be passed up by plays while some people still say "all he does is hit".

[Mario-Rijo]

Jocketty signed Gomes. Twice. No GM took Dorn.

Different situations. Gomes didn't require a spot on either the 25 man or the 40 man at the time of the 1st signing, Dorn would have if selected in the Rule V. Teams aren't sure Dorn can help them, but that doesn't mean they are convinced he can't. The initial Gomes signing is proof there is a difference.

[lollipopcurve]

The Twins for example, why would they look at him with Thome and Morneau?

Thome was a free agent when Dorn was available in the Rule V. And even if signed, he wouldn't be counted on for more than a year. Morneau's concussion problems have made him a question mark since last year.

Besides, Dorn is also an outfielder/bench bat. Why compare him to 1B/DH types only?

Teams with full 40-man rosters had time to drop guys to create space, once Dorn became available. They chose not to make a space available so that they'd have a chance to draft him. That tells you something along the lines of, "we like these 40 guys better than Dorn as a LH bat off our bench."

I don't have anything against Dorn -- he's a good AAAA bat and a nice success story for a 32nd round pick. What I don't like are the stabs people take at the Reds for how he's been handled, given that the Reds are clearly the only organization that has given him a chance, at all.

[Mario-Rijo]

Thome was a free agent when Dorn was available in the Rule V. And even if signed, he wouldn't be counted on for more than a year. Morneau's concussion problems have made him a question mark since last year.

Besides, Dorn is also an outfielder/bench bat. Why compare him to 1B/DH types only?

Teams with full 40-man rosters had time to drop guys to create space, once Dorn became available. They chose not to make a space available so that they'd have a chance to draft him. That tells you something along the lines of, "we like these 40 guys better than Dorn as a LH bat off our bench."

I don't have anything against Dorn -- he's a good AAAA bat and a nice success story for a 32nd round pick. What I don't like are the stabs people take at the Reds for how he's been handled, given that the Reds are clearly the only organization that has given him a chance, at all.

People are not really taking stabs at the Reds for it, just lamenting the fact that the guy has done all he can to be given a real opportunity to prove himself and isn't being given that chance. Which I think is a reasonable reaction to the situation. Problem is some people are offended that others lament the underdog not getting a shot, don't get it.

[edabbs44]

I don't have anything against Dorn -- he's a good AAAA bat and a nice success story for a 32nd round pick. What I don't like are the stabs people take at the Reds for how he's been handled, given that the Reds are clearly the only organization that has given him a chance, at all.

Right...that's a good summary of where I am as well. Saying things like "all Dorn does is hit" makes no sense in the bigger picture since everyone has access to Dorn's numbers. There is obviously a reason as to why the Reds are not giving him an opportunity. My guess is that they feel his numbers would not translate to the majors.

It is kind of easy to say that the Reds should do ___, since we may never know what the result of ___ would be. But I guess one question could be, what should the Reds do with Dorn? Use him as the long side of the LF platoon? How long would he get to show something at the plate? 100 PAs? 200 PAs? If he gets 200 PAs and puts up a .250/.300/.350 line, will that be enough of a sample size to demote him? Or does he need a full season? And then, at the end of the year, will we look up and see 450 wasted PAs?

I don't think that it is as easy as "all Dorn does is hit".

[lollipopcurve]

People are not really taking stabs at the Reds for it, just lamenting the fact that the guy has done all he can to be given a real opportunity to prove himself and isn't being given that chance. Which I think is a reasonable reaction to the situation. Problem is some people are offended that others lament the underdog not getting a shot, don't get it.

That's fine. Can't argue against rooting for the underdog. But I wouldn't necessarily call it "a reasonable reaction" -- more a subjective one. When all teams have been given a chance to acquire the player for next to nothing and decide against it, two years running, what's reasonable to assume is that the player does not profile well as a major leaguer.

[kaldaniels]

People are not really taking stabs at the Reds for it, just lamenting the fact that the guy has done all he can to be given a real opportunity to prove himself and isn't being given that chance. Which I think is a reasonable reaction to the situation. Problem is some people are offended that others lament the underdog not getting a shot, don't get it.

When GOYA did in fact lament that Dorn was cut, I simply asked how else he would have handled the situation. No answer on that front. I'm not offended if someone thinks "Its a shame a lifer like Dorn hasn't got his shot yet,"...that is perfectly reasonable. But perhaps explain it that way...otherwise fools like me take a remark like GOYA's the wrong way, reading it as Dorn is being treated unfairly. (Which I would still love an answer to my original question to GOYA). ;)

[Patrick Bateman]

Dorn needs to be an absolute masher to be worth a spot on an NL team.
He's not. That's why he's passed by 90% of teams. The other 10% didn't have to even evaluate the option because there are so many of the types around that they were already overloaded. So ya, the reason he gets passed by every team is because 30 teams have the 1B and LF positions covered. Every single one of those teams has guys they like more than Dorn.

Could he still make the majors? Ya, he probably will. But the odds that he's going to make every single team look bad when he does is pretty insignificant.

[camisadelgolf]

I've said it in private, but I'll go ahead and ruin it for you all: Dorn cheats on fastballs. I put a lot of research into this. As soon as he comes across a pitcher with a good breaking ball that starts out of the zone and comes back in, he has trouble. He should always be a good minor league hitter, but Major League breaking balls will be too much for him. Every team has the same scouting report on him, and players like Dorn are a dime a dozen.

The most you can expect out of him is Daryle Ward, who finished his career with negative WAR iIrc. Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying Dorn is incapable of putting together a couple good seasons in a platoon role--but roster spots are too precious to carry a guy with a very limited ceiling who is effective only as a pinch-hitter against right-handed pitching.

I love him as a ballplayer and wish he would get more opportunity--if not here, then somewhere else--but it's hardly a tragedy that he's not being given a shot. The Reds said to MLB, "If you want Dorn for $50,000, you can have him." No one took up the offer (twice). Do you really think that if a team offered up $100,000 for him, the Reds would refuse? I don't. In fact, I bet the Reds would jump all over that and say, "Finally! Now we have spots to play our surplus of actual prospects!"

[HokieRed]

Correct. It means that no team felt that he was worth a roster spot on their team over the past 2 years. And with how teams are currently managing their organizations and costs, I think that says something.

No, logically it does not mean this. It means only that no team saw adding Dorn to the 25 man roster was more important than anything else they might do with that 25th spot--making a different acquistion, rewarding someone from within, keeping roster flexibility for someone who might emerge from within or become available later, simply keeping roster flexibility. What does work against Dorn, in my view, is his combination of positions--and the fact that relatively decent alternatives can generally be had at these positions without a team's having to tie themselves to keeping a guy on the 25 man roster for the season. It's that last part of the Rule 5 rule that prevents a lot of players, not just Dorn, from getting picked up. I watched Brooks Conrad a lot as a minor leaguer and I watched the Rule 5 drafts for years wondering why he'd get passed on. I think he's a comp to Dorn in that what he offered could generally be picked up by teams in need without their having to commit that roster spot to him. In short, I think it's a real mistake to infer too much from the fact a guy gets "passed" on in the Rule 5 draft. And I wish Dorn the best and a shot.

[Hoosier Red]

I think the idea that no team could afford to give up their precious 25th roster spot is a bit misleading too.
Teams take guys in the Rule V draft all the time that they don't intend to put on their 25 man roster. If a team was even curious about Dorn's abilities, it would cost them $25,000* to find out. For a guy who's already proven himself as a AAA player?
*Remember they get $25,000 back if they send the player down AND the original team buys back the contract.

The fact that no team was willing to even risk $25,000, or more to the point no team was willing to risk a spot on the 40 man roster tells me that the Reds value him more than anyone else.

[REDREAD]

Repko plays all three outfield spots. Dorn might be able to play left field. Those two are two entirely different roster spots. They wouldn't be competing for the same place on a roster.

This kind of proves my point.. He's not a major leaguer.
It's pretty established that he's below average defensively.
You think he could OPS 775 on in the bigs, but that's far from a given.
Roberto Pentagine had 2 large parts of minor league seasons where he OPSed over 1000, and some more over with OPS over 900.
He still could not hit major league pitching well enough to make up for his defensive liability.

Your argument seems to be that Dorn could be a productive major leaguer, yet you acknowledge that he's not good enough to displace the 25th man off any team.. Seems contradictory.

[edabbs44]

I think we are trying too hard to plead Dorn's case. Bottom line is that all teams in the league had the opportunity to acquire him for a song, yet didn't. The smartest GMs, the dumbest GMs, the best teams, the worst teams, everyone. And no one went out of there way to invest $25k to see what he had.

He may get a cup of coffee at some point and could even find some success for a period of time in the show. But I'm not sure that anyone should be holding a candle for his arrival in Cincy, let alone make comments that insinuate that the Reds FO is making some sort of mistake.

[camisadelgolf]

This reminds me a lot of when the Reds brass was being heavily criticized on RZ for not protecting Carlos Guevara. Sometimes minor league success will not result in major league success. I think part of the reason it's so easy to forget is because struggling in the minors so rarely ends up in a player who succeeds.

[GOYA]

(Which I would still love an answer to my original question to GOYA). ;)

Keep Dorn in camp for a while and don't cut him in the first cut like he has no business there. Showcase him a little, if nothing else. It's pretty obvious the Reds don't want to use him so at least give him an opportunity to raise his stock for other teams. That might benefit the Reds in a trade.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Keep Dorn in camp for a while and don't cut him in the first cut like he has no business there. Showcase him a little, if nothing else. It's pretty obvious the Reds don't want to use him so at least give him an opportunity to raise his stock for other teams. That might benefit the Reds in a trade.

Exactly what I was thinking. Especially with him playing quite well right now. Take advantage of that.

[757690]

Keep Dorn in camp for a while and don't cut him in the first cut like he has no business there. Showcase him a little, if nothing else. It's pretty obvious the Reds don't want to use him so at least give him an opportunity to raise his stock for other teams. That might benefit the Reds in a trade.

The Reds can still showcase him, put him in MLB spring games, and they probably will. This re-assignment is mostly to free up space in the major league clubhouse.

[Sea Ray]

It's true that no team chose Dorn in the Rule 5. Twice. But that does not mean that no team thinks he is a major leaguer. That's a big jump in logic.

To me that is the definition of being a major leaguer. If no one wants you on their 40 man roster, let alone their 25 man, then you are by definition not a major leaguer. How else can you define "major leaguer"? I think I'm being kind by extending the argument to a 40 man. A hard core guy could insist on a 25 roster spot as defining a major leaguer. No team wants to give him a 40 man roster spot so that means he's not a major leaguer.

[TRF]

It's really hard to argue against all of baseball. Spin it any way you wish, but if the entire league passed on the guy twice, I'm gonna say that the odds are against him.

How many teams had a shot at Nelson Cruz?


Jocketty signed Gomes. Twice. No GM took Dorn.

He also traded away Dan Haren. I guess he might be human.

[edabbs44]

How many teams had a shot at Nelson Cruz?

Plenty. But I'm not sure that you want to go name for name on this one. For every Cruz, there are 1000 non-Cruzes.


He also traded away Dan Haren. I guess he might be human.

In the 2 years after he traded Haren, the team lost in the NLCS and won the
WS. So obviously the trade wasn't a franchise crippler.

But it is obvious that the team could be making a mistake on Dorn. But that means that at least some of the scouts and other FO personnel are making the same mistake, along with the vast majority of the rest of the league. Either way, the odds aren't in his favor. But you never know. He could find a home somewhere else at some point. If another team ends up changing their view a bit.

[Dan]

The Florida Marlins just released their version of Daniel Dorn:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/03/quick-hits-soria-lubanski-mets.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker&id=lubans001chr

[edabbs44]

The Florida Marlins just released their version of Daniel Dorn:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/03/quick-hits-soria-lubanski-mets.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker&id=lubans001chr

Except he had a pedigree.

[Brutus the Pimp]

Roger, I mean, Danny Dorns are dime-a-dozen. I think Dorn has a solid bat, but Major League teams have seen countless guys that can hit but don't have a position.

That he was passed over by 29 other teams for a mere $50,000 fee... twice... tells me the extent of his demand. That the Reds aren't willing to put him on the 25-man roster doesn't tell us anything about the Reds, as much as it tells us that apparently no other Major League team thought enough of him to take him for pennies on the Major League dollar.

[Orenda]

Roger, I mean, Danny Dorns are dime-a-dozen. I think Dorn has a solid bat, but Major League teams have seen countless guys that can hit but don't have a position.

That he was passed over by 29 other teams for a mere $50,000 fee... twice... tells me the extent of his demand. That the Reds aren't willing to put him on the 25-man roster doesn't tell us anything about the Reds, as much as it tells us that apparently no other Major League team thought enough of him to take him for pennies on the Major League dollar.

Sure, but that is much different than the comments stating "he flat out isn't a major leaguer" based only on the fact he wasn't selected in the rule 5.

Also I disagree with the comments that "he should be lucky he is still playing baseball." Someone other than the Reds would put him on a minor league roster based solely on his numbers.

That said, he isn't in the worst of situation right now even though he will probably never see time for the Reds because he should still get at-bats on a very good prospect laden team that should be well scouted. If I were him I'd try to catch on with a weaker organization next year or hope to be included in a trade.

[Brutus the Pimp]

Sure, but that is much different than the comments stating "he flat out isn't a major leaguer" based only on the fact he wasn't selected in the rule 5.

Also I disagree with the comments that "he should be lucky he is still playing baseball." Someone other than the Reds would put him on a minor league roster based solely on his numbers.

That said, he isn't in the worst of situation right now even though he will probably never see time for the Reds because he should still get at-bats on a very good prospect laden team that should be well scouted. If I were him I'd try to catch on with a weaker organization next year or hope to be included in a trade.

I don't agree with the opinion that he flat out isn't a major leaguer, but it's probably not an asinine stance given how many guys have made a living as career 4-A players that haven't cut it in the majors despite raking in AAA.

I do agree with you that being passed over in the Rule 5 doesn't mean he can't cut it in the big leagues, but it does give possible credibility to the opinion of those who don't think he would.

[RedsManRick]

Roger, I mean, Danny Dorns are dime-a-dozen. I think Dorn has a solid bat, but Major League teams have seen countless guys that can hit but don't have a position.

That he was passed over by 29 other teams for a mere $50,000 fee... twice... tells me the extent of his demand. That the Reds aren't willing to put him on the 25-man roster doesn't tell us anything about the Reds, as much as it tells us that apparently no other Major League team thought enough of him to take him for pennies on the Major League dollar.

And yet major league DHs hit a combined .252/.332/.425 last year. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a solid 1B/DH guy on an American League squad.

But instead teams run out the likes of Mark Kotsay out there for God knows why.

[Brutus the Pimp]

And yet major league DHs hit a combined .252/.332/.425 last year. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a solid 1B/DH guy on an American League squad.

But instead teams run out the likes of Mark Kotsay out there for God knows why.

My hunch is that it's for roster flex. By having a strict DH, you're limiting the flexibility with the rest of your roster because in that scenario, it's a guy that can't play the field very well. I think teams are trying to leave flexible defenders as their DH, even though it's obviously costing them runs at the DH position.

Just my guess, of course, but I imagine that's the reason.

[kaldaniels]

And yet major league DHs hit a combined .252/.332/.425 last year. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a solid 1B/DH guy on an American League squad.

But instead teams run out the likes of Mark Kotsay out there for God knows why.

Do you mind telling me where you rank Danny Dorn in regards to a "1B/DH" guy in all of MLB? 15th best? 30th best? If you were GM of say, the Cleveland Indians...of all of baseball/rule 5 draft, would Danny Dorn be your acquistion if you needed a DH? Are there not any better options out there being left unprotected (I truly don't know).

[RedsManRick]

Do you mind telling me where you rank Danny Dorn in regards to a "1B/DH" guy in all of MLB? 15th best? 30th best? If you were GM of say, the Cleveland Indians...of all of baseball/rule 5 draft, would Danny Dorn be your acquistion if you needed a DH? Are there not any better options out there being left unprotected (I truly don't know).

In the abstract, if had a spot on the bench and had a chance at drafting a guy for free who could put up an .800+ OPS over 400 some at bats, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I certainly think he's an upgrade over Willy Aybar or Mark Kotsay.r of older guys just hanging on

But you're right, would he be THE guy? I have no idea. Which makes me think the fact that he didn't get chosen in Rule V doesn't say very much. If he were a free agent, I don't think he'd stay one long. But most organizations have somewhat comparable guys who they'd give the shot to first, if they were so inclined.

[IslandRed]

And yet major league DHs hit a combined .252/.332/.425 last year. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a solid 1B/DH guy on an American League squad.

But instead teams run out the likes of Mark Kotsay out there for God knows why.

My hunch is that it's for roster flex. By having a strict DH, you're limiting the flexibility with the rest of your roster because in that scenario, it's a guy that can't play the field very well. I think teams are trying to leave flexible defenders as their DH, even though it's obviously costing them runs at the DH position.

Just my guess, of course, but I imagine that's the reason.

Yeah, I think these two posts cover it.

As a rule, I think teams want a guy who can either mash enough to be a full-time DH or play decent enough defense to be a generally useful bench guy. Not many have a specific opening for a guy who profiles as a part-time or platoon DH.

And I wouldn't be surprised in the least if what camisadelgolf posted is true. Sometimes there's a specific scouting reason why people don't think a guy can translate his minor-league production to the majors.

[TheNext44]

And yet major league DHs hit a combined .252/.332/.425 last year. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a solid 1B/DH guy on an American League squad.

But instead teams run out the likes of Mark Kotsay out there for God knows why.

One reason may be that teams don't think he can hit major league pitching. Lots of guys put up gaudy numbers against AAA pitching, but can't make that final adjustment to put up decent numbers in the majors.

[TRF]

Case in point... the Diamondbacks are looking at Russell Branyan at 1B. And he I kind of.. bad at the position.

Saying Dorn will never be a major leaguer because of the rule 5 draft is silly. How many rule 5 guys ended up being nothing?

[bucksfan2]

Case in point... the Diamondbacks are looking at Russell Branyan at 1B. And he I kind of.. bad at the position.

Saying Dorn will never be a major leaguer because of the rule 5 draft is silly. How many rule 5 guys ended up being nothing?

Braynon was a career .919 OPS guy in the minors. He was also a rated prospect for a number of years in the minors. Those guys get chances in the major leagues.

Guys with no pedigree and who don't put up outstanding minor league numbers don't get as many chances. For every one Nelson Cruz there are hundreds of other minor leaguers who have flamed out in the minors.

[lollipopcurve]

Saying Dorn will never be a major leaguer because of the rule 5 draft is silly.

I don't think we're arguing about whether he'll ever get an AB in the bigs. The question is, does he profile well as a guy who should have a big league career? Meaning, should he get multiple full seasons in the majors, whether it be as a pinch hitter, platoon OF or DH, or full-time starter? How folks would answer that question is probably where the divide is.

[Sea Ray]

Case in point... the Diamondbacks are looking at Russell Branyan at 1B. And he I kind of.. bad at the position.

Saying Dorn will never be a major leaguer because of the rule 5 draft is silly. How many rule 5 guys ended up being nothing?

Did anybody say Dorn will never be a major leaguer? All I know is as of St Patricks Day 2011 he is not a major leaguer

[REDREAD]

Exactly what I was thinking. Especially with him playing quite well right now. Take advantage of that.

I guess I don't see the point.. If no teams want him now (which is obvious), why would a great spring training make a difference? He could hit 500 in spring training, and no one would want him.

Spring training is about preparing for the season. Dorn can be "showcased" just as easy in minor league camp. No one wants him. No point in Dorn taking playing time away from people that are potentially in the Reds' plans.

[redsmetz]

I guess I don't see the point.. If no teams want him now (which is obvious), why would a great spring training make a difference? He could hit 500 in spring training, and no one would want him.

Spring training is about preparing for the season. Dorn can be "showcased" just as easy in minor league camp. No one wants him. No point in Dorn taking playing time away from people that are potentially in the Reds' plans.

I agree with your point that Dorn can be showcased just as easily in the minor league camp (maybe more so), but I can't definitively say no one wants him. Certainly people have passed on him through the Rule 5 draft (twice, right?), but it may just be no one finds value in him at the fee it costs, nor for the roster spot it requires for the season. I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some of these type guys getting bundled in minor trades here and there. We've got a plethora of guys like Dorn that could net a rookie level guy that is a project, for example. It will be interesting to see what transpires as the season nears how some of these things shake out.

[Dan]

For those of you who think Daniel Dorn case is something new. Let me introduce you to Adam Casillas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=casill001ada). Just one among many who "never got a fair chance."

[redsmetz]

For those of you who think Daniel Dorn case is something new. Let me introduce you to Adam Casillas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=casill001ada). Just one among many who "never got a fair chance."

I've had a 1993 Reds Yearbook I added to my online store (selling it for my parents) and I looked up the prospects they highlighted. One jumped out at me as apt - Steve Gibralter. Quoting the yearbook, it quotes Jim Bowden, saying "look in the dictionary under the word 'hustle' and you see Pete Rose & Steve Gibralter." Big league career? Six games, one hit in 1995 pinchhitting for Jose Rijo.

Others listed: Mike Ferry (P), Chad Mottola (59 games total), "Calvin" Reese (no Pokey) and John Roper (pitched in 35 games). So few ultimately make it for much of a career.

[westofyou]

I guess I don't see the point.. If no teams want him now (which is obvious), why would a great spring training make a difference? He could hit 500 in spring training, and no one would want him.

Spring training is about preparing for the season. Dorn can be "showcased" just as easy in minor league camp. No one wants him. No point in Dorn taking playing time away from people that are potentially in the Reds' plans.

Nothing has more of a pyrite feel to hit than hitting stats from an Arizona Spring.

Dorn should look up Petagine, Cromer and Russ Mormon to see how they handled it.

[lollipopcurve]

Nothing has more of a pyrite feel to hit than hitting stats from an Arizona Spring.

They don't even let Robert Stratton into Arizona in the spring.

[Tony Cloninger]

For those of you who think Daniel Dorn case is something new. Let me introduce you to Adam Casillas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=casill001ada). Just one among many who "never got a fair chance."


Amazing BB/K ratio. You would think that he would be given a look just for that.

[Redsfan320]

As mentioned in OBM's thread, Reds cut 2 more today in Reineke and Carroll.

320

[OnBaseMachine]

More cuts:

#Reds' cuts: Fisher, Gil, Smith, Hererra, Alonso, Cozart, Frazier, Negron.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

[kaldaniels]

More cuts:

#Reds' cuts: Fisher, Gil, Smith, Hererra, Alonso, Cozart, Frazier, Negron.



How many spots are left for the 25 man?

No suprises above.

[OnBaseMachine]

According to the Reds twitter account, there are 35 players remaining in camp. Devin Mesoraco and Dave Sappelt survived this round of cuts...

[OnBaseMachine]

According to a Spanish tweet, Ramon Hernandez has a sore elbow and is visiting a doctor today. Could Mesoraco make the team after all?

http://twitter.com/Javierale_Saez

[bucksfan2]

According to a Spanish tweet, Ramon Hernandez has a sore elbow and is visiting a doctor today. Could Mesoraco make the team after all?

http://twitter.com/Javierale_Saez

Would Mes or Corky make the team? I have thought that the Reds wanted Mesoraco to get more seasoning in AAA this year. If Ramon is out for a short period of time Corky gets the call. Mesoraco gets the call when he forces the issue.

[Dan]

More cuts:

#Reds' cuts: Fisher, Gil, Smith, Hererra, Alonso, Cozart, Frazier, Negron.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

When those are your cuts, you're doing pretty good. I can think of a time when all those players would have come north (and possibly been ruined by being called up too early).

[RedsManRick]

Would Mes or Corky make the team? I have thought that the Reds wanted Mesoraco to get more seasoning in AAA this year. If Ramon is out for a short period of time Corky gets the call. Mesoraco gets the call when he forces the issue.

Would Corky have to get passed through waivers to go back down once Ramon came back?

[fearofpopvol1]

According to a Spanish tweet, Ramon Hernandez has a sore elbow and is visiting a doctor today. Could Mesoraco make the team after all?

http://twitter.com/Javierale_Saez

I'm doubting it. I think it would be Corky. As much as I want to see Mez in Cincy, I'd like to see him spend a little more time in Louisville.

[Danny Serafini]

Would Corky have to get passed through waivers to go back down once Ramon came back?

Yes, though I'd imagine he'd clear.

[TRF]

Nothing has more of a pyrite feel to hit than hitting stats from an Arizona Spring.

Dorn should look up Petagine, Cromer and Russ Mormon to see how they handled it.

Cromer, in 1996 all of a sudden SLG 200+ points higher than he ever did prior and was out of baseball at age 30.I don't KNOW that he was a PED user, but it certainly is possible.

Petagine is a real good comp though. He tore through the minor leagues. The only ML team he really hit with was Cincinnati, but it just happened to be 1998, the year the Reds acquired Sean Casey. Had that not happened, he might have been the OD 1B for the Reds in 1999. Petagine at one point was Japan Baseball's highest paid player. Maybe that is in Dorn's future. I mean once the radiation is cleaned up.

Can't find a Russ Mormon at baseball reference.

Dorn can hit. He hit in the FSL. he's hit everywhere since then. fielding is probably the issue + availability as doug points out. some teams just don't need him, some that do think they can fill that void from within. Tough place to be. He'll go to Louisville and OPS .900+ again. And we'll get to see Gomes get 500+ AB's this year, kill LH pitching while flailing away at RH's.

[edabbs44]

Cromer, in 1996 all of a sudden SLG 200+ points higher than he ever did prior and was out of baseball at age 30.I don't KNOW that he was a PED user, but it certainly is possible.

Petagine is a real good comp though. He tore through the minor leagues. The only ML team he really hit with was Cincinnati, but it just happened to be 1998, the year the Reds acquired Sean Casey. Had that not happened, he might have been the OD 1B for the Reds in 1999. Petagine at one point was Japan Baseball's highest paid player. Maybe that is in Dorn's future. I mean once the radiation is cleaned up.

Can't find a Russ Mormon at baseball reference.

Dorn can hit. He hit in the FSL. he's hit everywhere since then. fielding is probably the issue + availability as doug points out. some teams just don't need him, some that do think they can fill that void from within. Tough place to be. He'll go to Louisville and OPS .900+ again. And we'll get to see Gomes get 500+ AB's this year, kill LH pitching while flailing away at RH's.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morman001rus

[mth123]

If I counted right, there are 16 pitchers still in camp. Assuming Arredondo and Cueto start on the DL, there are still some tough cuts left. Maloney and Lecure I'm guessing.

40 Man roster spots will have some significance IMO. Mes isn't on the roster either, so if he's added he's on the 40 man to stay. Given the need for spots, I doubt they would want him up and taking a spot up all year for just a short stint. The Reds will probably need to clear a spot for Willis, possibly Hermida and if they add a catcher that's three guys they'd have to expose to waivers. Not sure I see that happening unless one of these guys is worse off than we think and ends up on the 60 day DL. I'd say if Hermida makes it, Lewis gets released simply to avid having to cut loose of three pitchers who would probably all get claimed.

[TRF]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morman001rus

At first glance I'd say Mormon may have had some injury issues. Also had the misfortune of playing during an era when major league players were productive into their 40's because of PED's. Mormon didn't hit as well as Dorn while playing in the PCL at the beginning of the PED era. I notice his numbers took a serious uptick in the 90's. just sayin'.

Maybe Dorn ends up as the same type of player, but this is a different era supposedly. I can think of 5 teams that could use Dorn: Arizona, San Diego, Washington, Houston, and Pittsburgh. Next year, Milwaukee, maybe Detroit.

but it is just my opinion.

[OnBaseMachine]

C Devin Mesoraco, OF Dave Sappelt, IF Chris Valaika reassigned to minor league camp. Spring roster now at 30.

http://twitter.com/CincinnatiReds

Nice spring Dave, but .564 simply isn't good enough with the great Jonny Gomes still around.

[cinreds21]

Some people are gonna be really mad now

[757690]

C Devin Mesoraco, OF Dave Sappelt, IF Chris Valaika reassigned to minor league camp. Spring roster now at 30.

http://twitter.com/CincinnatiReds

Nice spring Dave, but .564 simply isn't good enough with the great Jonny Gomes still around.

This will be a nice race to see which one of these guys makes it back to the big club first. I predict by the All-Star Break all of them will have seen time on the Reds 25 man roster.

[reds44]

RT @CincinnatiReds: Reds reassign to minor league camp LHP Dontrelle Willis and OF Jeremy Hermida. Spring roster at 28 healthy players.

[mth123]

Any word on whether these guys agreed to report to AAA?

[JaxRed]

They are both on minor league deals. Don't think they have a choice. (other than retiring)

[mth123]

They are both on minor league deals. Don't think they have a choice. (other than retiring)

Many of these deals for major league vets inclide the right to get out of the deal and refuse the assignment. It happens all the time. I hope they both stay. Given the state of things, I'd like to see Willis starting at AAA.

[Kc61]

If Arredondo is to go to the DL, this means the pitching staff is set.

Arroyo, Volquez, Wood, Leake, Lecure.
Maloney, Ondrusek, Burton, Bray, Masset, Chapman, Cordero.

The only remaining battle is Lewis v. Francisco. I'm rooting for JF.

Wonder if Reds are trying to trade Lewis for a pitcher.

Another thought -- would Reds trade Cairo and keep both Lewis and JF?

[mth123]

An update on Sheldon's blog says Willis will go to AAA and be stretched out as a starter due to concerns about depth.

Hermida is free to make a deal with another team for a major league job and the Reds won't stand in his way.

Lewis going to get checked out for a sore side.

"Its looking like Francisco will make the team especially if Lewis has to go to the DL. We'll have to wait and see on that."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/03/27/willis-and-hermida-cut/

[camisadelgolf]

They are both on minor league deals. Don't think they have a choice. (other than retiring)
You are correct. If they had been outrighted, they would have a choice, but they were reassigned instead.

[Kc61]

Sounds like Lewis' sore side will break the final logjam.

[Tom Servo]

I like Lewis but I was rooting for Hermida, damn. I'm hoping he stays in AAA and has a Jonny Gomes in 2009 like path.

[mth123]

If Lewis goes on the DL and rehabs at AAA, the OF down there is going to be really crowded especially if Hermida sticks around. Sappelt, Perez, Dorn, Frazier, Alonso, Griffin, Barton....

[WVRedsFan]

Lots of surprises. I thoughteither Mez or Sappelt would make the club given the current circumstances. Like mth, I think that a lot of positions are going to be crowded at the AAA level the way things are going.

[JaxRed]

Well, if Francisco makes the team I see no reason not to start Frazier at 3b everyday. And Barton might be in Carolina

[mth123]

Well, if Francisco makes the team I see no reason not to start Frazier at 3b everyday. And Barton might be in Carolina

Agreed, but I'd like to see Alonso in LF every day. Dorn can play 1B and Perez can go to AA with Sappelt in CF I guess.

[Redsfan320]

Dusty Baker said Willis has agreed to go to Triple-A. Hermida will see if he can got a big league job.

Am I interpreting this correctly by thinking Hermida is gone?

320

[JaxRed]

Am I interpreting this correctly by thinking Hermida is gone?

320

Not for sure. If Hermida can't find a Major League deal it doesn't sound like he's allowed to go elsewhere.

[camisadelgolf]

Hermida is on a minor league contract. His options are reporting to the minors or retiring. It's possible that he could elect free agency, but that would've been specially written in the contract, and I'm sure we would have heard about that around the time of his signing. The only way Hermida will be exposed to other teams before being sent to the minors is if the Reds add him to the 25-man roster and try to send him back to the minors.

[757690]

Hermida is on a minor league contract. His options are reporting to the minors or retiring. It's possible that he could elect free agency, but that would've been specially written in the contract, and I'm sure we would have heard about that around the time of his signing. The only way Hermida will be exposed to other teams before being sent to the minors is if the Reds add him to the 25-man roster and try to send him back to the minors.

Thanks for the explanation.

Still, the Reds, as a favor, could be shopping him to see if another team wants him on their 25 man roster.,

[tixe]

Sheldon, I think, tweeted that the Reds are simply not going to stand in Hermidia's way if he finds a team that will give him a big-league job. No release or anything drastic.

I hope he decides to stay.

[camisadelgolf]

Sheldon, I think, tweeted that the Reds are simply not going to stand in Hermidia's way if he finds a team that will give him a big-league job. No release or anything drastic.

I hope he decides to stay.
That tells me that the Reds are willing to trade him for cash or a ptbnl. I wonder about the tampering rules if another team comes out and tells Hermida they would put him on their 25-man roster.

[LoganBuck]

That tells me that the Reds are willing to trade him for cash or a ptbnl. I wonder about the tampering rules if another team comes out and tells Hermida they would put him on their 25-man roster.

Not if the Reds gave him permission to seek another opportunity.

[tixe]

Here's the quote from Sheldon's blog, linked above

**Update: Baker said Willis would report to Triple-A Louisville and be stretched out for starting pitching because of the sudden hit the depth has taken. Hermida was told he could look around for a big league job and if there is one, the Reds won’t stand in his way and would let him go.

[OnBaseMachine]

From John Fay:

HERMIDA ACCEPTS MINOR ASSIGNMENT: Outfielder Jeremy Hermida accepted the assignment to minor league camp. Hermida was going to see if he could get a big league job before deciding.



http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110402/SPT04/304020048/Opening-Day-hero-Hernandez-out-lineup?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Reds

[cinreds21]

Good decision by Herm. If an injury happens he should get the call, even without a current 40-man spot.