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SidneySlicker
04-01-2011, 01:44 PM
I know this is a mid summer discussion, but please allow me to go there anyway. This team as we all know has a huge hole in left field. There is a great chance that the Cleveland Indians will be out of the AL central race come trade deadline time. Shin Soo Choo has eluded to the point with the korean media that he wants out of cleveland and though he and the indians agreed on a one year deal it appears at this point that he wont be a long term indian. So the question is this.

What would you give up for a guy who is a all star type outfielder who is still only 28 (29 in July)? I'm a big believer in windows. You have certain windows where you can compete for it all. Choo is the missing part of this offense. I'd give a huge payback for choo, enough to make it well worth the indians time in doing a deal. Beyond that the indians are the ones behind the eightball as a long term deal with choo and scott boras is unlikely. If the Reds can do a deal, cordero' contact comes off the books and u have an extra what 13mill to sign choo to a long term contract and chapman. Slides over to closer. What do you all think?

Red in Atl
04-01-2011, 02:49 PM
I love the idea, but what is the cost? And can you sign him considering Boras is the agent? I'll see what happens to Gomes this year with a full chance. Hopefully Sappelt keeps going in AAA, and then the point would be moot.

Sappelt gives us a leadoff guy and I hope better glove in left. Then we have Cordero's salary to use to sign everyone else on this team to another year.

knoonan991
04-01-2011, 02:55 PM
i certainly wouldn't be opposed to a Chooooo, Dreeewwww, and Bruuuuuuce outfield.

The only problem is that I don't think we match up too well as trading partners with the Indians. Our biggest trade chips play 1B and C, the Indians have Matt Laporta and Carlos Santana filling those positions.

SidneySlicker
04-01-2011, 04:22 PM
i certainly wouldn't be opposed to a Chooooo, Dreeewwww, and Bruuuuuuce outfield.

The only problem is that I don't think we match up too well as trading partners with the Indians. Our biggest trade chips play 1B and C, the Indians have Matt Laporta and Carlos Santana filling those positions.


I agree as far as catcher position goes, but Laporta has been a bust so far and didn't do
anything this spring to change anyone's opinions batting below .200

Alonzo is actually a better fit in the AL as he'd be a great candidate to dh. I don't know what kind of trade value some of the young guys like Heisey has around the league but I would add him, Leake, Francisco or any multitde of guys. I think what Sappelt did this spring is great, but as you said he needs to prove it in triple a on an everyday basis. I'm not sure they have the ammunition to get it done either but I would love to see them try.

bounty37h
04-01-2011, 04:46 PM
i certainly wouldn't be opposed to a Chooooo, Dreeewwww, and Bruuuuuuce outfield.

The only problem is that I don't think we match up too well as trading partners with the Indians. Our biggest trade chips play 1B and C, the Indians have Matt Laporta and Carlos Santana filling those positions.

Other then Hanny and Mes I dont think we are that deep at true quality catchers.

Pony Boy
04-01-2011, 04:56 PM
A lot depends on how Alonso plays over the next few months. If he is OPSing .900 or better (not unrealistic) teams will be burning the phone lines trying to pry him away. A package built around Alonso that includes a few other prospects could do it given that Choo will be getting very expensive very soon.

Vottomatic
04-01-2011, 05:00 PM
I proposed picking up Choo multiple times late last season. He has an outstanding OBP, and hits for both average and power, and has speed. He is perfect for a leadoff guy. And I saw him throw a Reds runner out from RF last year........strong arm.

Tadasimha
04-01-2011, 05:10 PM
Choo's a right fielder. I like the guy too, but I wouldn't want to pick him up and ask him to switch positions half-way through the season and learn a new one. If the team is going to trade talent, they should get a guy who is ready to immediately step into left.

Otherwise stick with the Gomes/Lewis/Heisey options for 2011 and let Sappelt develop for a full season in Louisville.

Pony Boy
04-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Choo's a right fielder. I like the guy too, but I wouldn't want to pick him up and ask him to switch positions half-way through the season and learn a new one. If the team is going to trade talent, they should get a guy who is ready to immediately step into left.

Otherwise stick with the Gomes/Lewis/Heisey options for 2011 and let Sappelt develop for a full season in Louisville.

Choo has played every OF spot at some point in his career. He has played plenty of games in LF and even CF. The transition to LF would be extremely easy.

Tadasimha
04-01-2011, 11:17 PM
Choo has played every OF spot at some point in his career. He has played plenty of games in LF and even CF. The transition to LF would be extremely easy.

He's still primarily a right fielder and it takes time to really settle in to a new position. Remember two seasons ago when the Cubs decided to turn Kosuke Fukudome (a right fielder) into their center fielder so Milton Bradley could be their RF. It took Fukudome the first half of the season (even with a full spring training in center) to look close to comfortable and he was no where near as good a CF as a RF even by the end of the season.

Again - bringing in a guy and asking him to switch mid-summer is not the best idea. No matter how good the athlete, it takes some adjustment time.

OGB
04-04-2011, 07:19 PM
Other then Hanny and Mes I dont think we are that deep at true quality catchers.

What are you talking about? Name me another team that has as much depth at the position as the Reds.
Hanigan and Hernandez are the best platoon in baseball. Corky Miller isn't a trade piece by any stretch of the imagination, but if someone goes down, he does outstanding work behind the plate as a second catcher.
Then you have 2 elite prospects starting at AAA and AA.

The DARK
04-04-2011, 08:08 PM
Hernandez isn't getting traded this season. He's too important to our Spanish-speaking pitching staff to be taken out midseason, and Mesoraco has too much to learn in AAA.

If we tried, we could pry away Choo with the right prospects. Alonso, Sappelt, and Grandal might get it done, but at what cost? Does this mean we can't resign Phillips or Votto when the time rolls around? The truth is that we remain a small-market team, and we can't afford him, especially when we have Francisco, Heisey, Alonso, Sappelt, and Frazier in the wings. If just one of them breaks out this season, we have our LF answer for the next 4-5 years for the league minimum.

Do we really have to call this our window? If we play all our cards right, nearly all of our homegrown talent will remain Reds for the next 5-6 years. A few of them will be career Reds. Having kids that are able come out to the games wearing Jay Bruce t-shirts year after year does incredible things for attendance and the Cincinnati baseball community. We can be the St. Louis of the 2010's, the small market team with big market attendance.

smixsell
04-04-2011, 08:53 PM
I've been in favor of getting Choo if possible for a long time. Great player with great character. I can see us getting him in a deadline move, as he is out of contract at the end of this season and has said that he wants to move to a contender. Cleveland will not risk getting nothing for him, so he will be a classic "rent a player" for the stretch drive and post season. It will all come down to which contender needs/wants him the most. Depends on injuries and other factors, but I can see it happening. PS Choo seems to be a clutch player, as he has come up very big for Korea in big games vs. Japan I believe.

burritto
04-04-2011, 09:37 PM
Other then Hanny and Mes I dont think we are that deep at true quality catchers.

I mean, if you have two "true quality catchers" and anyone else with a pulse available, you have a pretty darn good catching situation.

Vottomatic
04-04-2011, 10:35 PM
Again, I pushed this idea last year to no avail. At the time, everyone was crying about his Korean Army obligation.

Switching positions from RF to LF is hard? Give me a break. Dude has played all of the OF positions in his career. If he were strictly one position all the time, then it might be difficult. But he has experience at all of them.

Can you imagine the defense of our OF with Choo in LF, Stubbs in CF, Bruce in RF? Can you imagine our offense with Choo and his .380 OBP leading off, and potential to hit 20 HR's? It would be sweet.

Vottomatic
04-04-2011, 10:36 PM
Other then Hanny and Mes I dont think we are that deep at true quality catchers.

Huh? :confused:

Most teams are struggling to find catching.

LeDoux
04-04-2011, 10:50 PM
I'm lost. In this trade the Indians get who?

davrix
04-04-2011, 11:03 PM
I would not want to ship Alonso for a rent a player, plus I am concerned that SS or our closer will be bigger issues than LF by years end. If Gomes cannot cut it, I would rather see what Heisey could do. At least his D is top notch.

VottoFan54
04-04-2011, 11:40 PM
Unreallistic but wouldn't this lineup look good:

Choo LF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Rolen 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Hernanigan C
Janish SS
Pitcher

That lineup would put up some pretty spectacular offense but the only thing I question is why we would trade for a bat when the Reds finished 1st in the NL and 4th in MLB in Runs Scored. IMO it would make more sense to aquire some pitiching, specifically an ace.

Girevik
04-05-2011, 10:03 AM
Again, I pushed this idea last year to no avail. At the time, everyone was crying about his Korean Army obligation.


That, and the fact that from what I recall Cleveland said they had absoloutely no interest in trading him and wanted to make him a piece they build around. We'll have to see if that changes as the deadline nears if Choo indicates he doesn't want to sign there, or at least test the market.

davrix
04-05-2011, 11:00 AM
Unreallistic but wouldn't this lineup look good:

Choo LF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Rolen 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Hernanigan C
Janish SS
Pitcher

That lineup would put up some pretty spectacular offense but the only thing I question is why we would trade for a bat when the Reds finished 1st in the NL and 4th in MLB in Runs Scored. IMO it would make more sense to aquire some pitiching, specifically an ace.

I am with you on the ace. I could see a mid season deal to do bring someone here who can dominate in the playoffs. Just have to see who falls out of contention. Carpenter and Grienke may be available. :)

Pony Boy
04-05-2011, 11:09 AM
I am with you on the ace. I could see a mid season deal to do bring someone here who can dominate in the playoffs. Just have to see who falls out of contention. Carpenter and Grienke may be available. :)

Carpenter in a Reds uni? That would be fun.

Chris Sabowned
04-05-2011, 01:12 PM
Choo is eligible for arbitration after this year, and won't be a free agent until after the 2013 season. So we would probably get him for two more full seasons.

I don't think the Reds can afford to give up too much. I would imagine Cleveland would want at least a Mike Leake or Yonder Alonso type player in return.

SidneySlicker
04-05-2011, 01:18 PM
I am with you on the ace. I could see a mid season deal to do bring someone here who can dominate in the playoffs. Just have to see who falls out of contention. Carpenter and Grienke may be available. :)

Even though the Reds offense was number 1 in the NL last year there are holes in it. I'd love to get protection for Joey Votto. BP as much as I like him disappears for stretches of time and it seems to be when the stakes are the highest. See vrs cards and in the playoffs last year. Stubbs, while I think he's gonna improve was one of the highest strikeout totals in the NL last year. He does have great speed but im not sold that his bat is top of the order efficient yet. Choo has batted .300 on what was one of the worse offenses in baseball with very little if any protection.

I'd love to have a proven dominant #1 also but the fact is there is usually only one maybe 2 of those available at the trade deadline and they will go for a much higher ransom than will a plus outfielder. The other thing that plays into this is I think Travis Wood will be pretty close to that by the time the playoffs roll around.

bigredmechanism
04-05-2011, 02:13 PM
I like Choo and all, but I feel like Heisey in LF fulltime might blossom into a nice player. If all went well, i could see a .290/20hr player with solid defense and decent speed.

It's weird; from my perspective, there are really no glaring holes in our lineup. The guys who can hit pick up the slack for the more inconsistent guys, while the inconsistent guys really pick up the slack on defense and high pressure at bats. I wasn't a fan of it at first, but the Janish/Renteria combo is starting to grow on me. PJ seems to have some good at bats when we really need it.

If anything I would want us to get an ace. Just not sure who would be available. If seattle was playing bad enough, I would love for us to try to get Felix. But looking at his contract, he is signed through 2014 and so Seattle has no reason to trade him just yet.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 03:18 PM
But why would the Indians Trade Choo? His contract is affordable for them so it makes Zero sense for them to trade him...

Grady Sizemore would be available because his Contract his taking up almsot 20% of their Payroll...

I am not saying Trade for Sizemore but the Choo idea, while good in theory for the REDS, makes NO Sense for the Indians.

bshall2105
04-05-2011, 03:20 PM
But why would the Indians Trade Choo? His contract is affordable for them so it makes Zero sense for them to trade him...

Grady Sizemore would be available because his Contract his taking up almsot 20% of their Payroll...

I am not saying Trade for Sizemore but the Choo idea, while good in theory for the REDS, makes NO Sense for the Indians.

He's a little older so if they could get decent prospects to build around Santana I could see the Indians trading Choo.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 03:27 PM
He's a little older so if they could get decent prospects to build around Santana I could see the Indians trading Choo.

He's 28 years old making $461,100 for 2010

Votto is 27 years old making $525,000 for 2010

Now I know you will say, the Reds are in contention and the Indians are not, but regardless of that...

Why would the Indians Trade a Guy in the Prime of his Career when he is only making 461,100

Its not like the Royals with Greinke making 13.5 Million.

bshall2105
04-05-2011, 03:30 PM
He's 28 years old making $461,100 for 2010

Votto is 27 years old making $525,000 for 2010

Now I know you will say, the Reds are in contention and the Indians are not, but regardless of that...

Why would the Indians Trade a Guy in the Prime of his Career when he is only making 461,100

Its not like the Royals with Greinke making 13.5 Million.

For me it depends on when the Indians are planning on contending. If they think they will be in it next year then definitely keep Choo. If they aren't going anywhere in the next 3-5 years then I don't see what's wrong with getting a couple of highly touted 22-24 year olds for him.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 03:49 PM
For me it depends on when the Indians are planning on contending. If they think they will be in it next year then definitely keep Choo. If they aren't going anywhere in the next 3-5 years then I don't see what's wrong with getting a couple of highly touted 22-24 year olds for him.

Great Idea and would be an awesome pick up but I doubt they Trade Choo.

Wish they'd pay half Sizemores Salary and let us pick him up for Next to Nothing...

Maybe like Maloney.

Reds
04-05-2011, 06:12 PM
If you hit .300 with 20 blasts and 20 swipes you can play for me. He will be available if the Indians fall out of contention because I'm under the impression he's on a one year contract and the Indians (front office) would trade Choo if they saw an opportunity to improve the teams depth/overall talent.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 06:31 PM
If you hit .300 with 20 blasts and 20 swipes you can play for me. He will be available if the Indians fall out of contention because I'm under the impression he's on a one year contract and the Indians (front office) would trade Choo if they saw an opportunity to improve the teams depth/overall talent.

He's Not under a 1 year contract. He is under contract through 2013.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKIJtE0J83GL-6XiTzecEBw&output=html

They don't need to Trade him.

Reds
04-05-2011, 06:41 PM
He's Not under a 1 year contract. He is under contract through 2013.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKIJtE0J83GL-6XiTzecEBw&output=html

They don't need to Trade him.

Snap, he must have re-upped during the off-season or I'm drunk. :drink:

:he's AA, but the Indians haven't been through that ordeal in what seems like forever..

lonewolf371
04-05-2011, 07:10 PM
He's 28 years old making $461,100 for 2010

Votto is 27 years old making $525,000 for 2010

Now I know you will say, the Reds are in contention and the Indians are not, but regardless of that...

Why would the Indians Trade a Guy in the Prime of his Career when he is only making 461,100

Its not like the Royals with Greinke making 13.5 Million.
They would trade him if we offered enough prospects. With the time left on his contract, we'd probably have to offer the farm.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 07:15 PM
Snap, he must have re-upped during the off-season or I'm drunk. :drink:

:he's AA, but the Indians haven't been through that ordeal in what seems like forever..

I was wrong about 1 thing.

Choo makes 3.975 Million this year so it is possible the Tribe would move the Salary.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKIJtE0J83GL-6XiTzecEBw&output=html

With Choo being under Contract for 2 more years (2013)

But I bet it would cost a bunch of Prospects and Pitching

I'd be all for it if it would be like Alonso for Choo Straight up.

Vottomatic
04-05-2011, 09:24 PM
I was wrong about 1 thing.

Choo makes 3.975 Million this year so it is possible the Tribe would move the Salary.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKIJtE0J83GL-6XiTzecEBw&output=html

With Choo being under Contract for 2 more years (2013)

But I bet it would cost a bunch of Prospects and Pitching

I'd be all for it if it would be like Alonso for Choo Straight up.

Anyone is tradeable for the right return.

They'd trade Choo for one of our young starting pitchers straight up in a heartbeat. We might have to throw in another guy major league ready at triple A.......but I doubt much more.

Why keep Choo when they need so much to rebuild? Makes no sense. They need to trade one guy for two or three, and hope it they turn into starters.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 10:33 PM
Anyone is tradeable for the right return.

They'd trade Choo for one of our young starting pitchers straight up in a heartbeat. We might have to throw in another guy major league ready at triple A.......but I doubt much more.

Why keep Choo when they need so much to rebuild? Makes no sense. They need to trade one guy for two or three, and hope it they turn into starters.

I wouldnt give up any of the Starters on the Major League Roster.

Not that Cleveland will listen to me but I think Yonder Alonso and like Lecure/Maloney, and another lower level arm could get it done...

Only Bad thing is Choo is Left Handed and I think this team needs a Right Handed Hitter.

bshall2105
04-05-2011, 10:58 PM
I wouldnt give up any of the Starters on the Major League Roster.

Not that Cleveland will listen to me but I think Yonder Alonso and like Lecure/Maloney, and another lower level arm could get it done...

Only Bad thing is Choo is Left Handed and I think this team needs a Right Handed Hitter.

Why does this team need a right hander? We have two regular players that hit left handed.

Hondo
04-05-2011, 11:01 PM
Why does this team need a right hander? We have two regular players that hit left handed.

In my opinion the team Needs a Bonafide Clean Up Power right handed Hitter where Rolen is in the Lineup and move Rolen down.

A guy that is going to hit 17 homers before and after the All Star Break.

lonewolf371
04-05-2011, 11:57 PM
In my opinion the team Needs a Bonafide Clean Up Power right handed Hitter where Rolen is in the Lineup and move Rolen down.

A guy that is going to hit 17 homers before and after the All Star Break.
Guys that can do that and play in the outfield simply aren't available.

bshall2105
04-06-2011, 12:05 AM
In my opinion the team Needs a Bonafide Clean Up Power right handed Hitter where Rolen is in the Lineup and move Rolen down.

A guy that is going to hit 17 homers before and after the All Star Break.

I think Jonny Gomes is as close to that as the Reds have/can afford to bring in right now. He could hit 30+ if given regular playing time all season. I realize he's not wildly popular for the 4 spot but looking at some other teams clean up hitters it doesn't seem that bad.

Vottomatic
04-06-2011, 08:25 AM
I wasn't convinced of my following comment last year.........but this year when I look at our batting order of Stubbs, Phillips, Votto, Rolen, Bruce, and Gomes.......it's as close as a murderer's row as we've seen here in Cincy in awhile. Everyone of those guys has the potential to hit 20 to 30 HR's if they played everyday. And substituting Heisey doesn't miss a beat offensively. Then add in our catching platoon and it gets even scarier.

I'd be fine trading Alonso. I'm not really that high on the guy. I'm not crazy about guys who can't play defense. He'd have to hit .340 with 20 HR's for me to overlook his lack of defense. If he gets hot and puts up great numbers in Louisville this year, I look for him to be trade bait.

Girevik
04-06-2011, 09:40 AM
In my opinion the team Needs a Bonafide Clean Up Power right handed Hitter where Rolen is in the Lineup and move Rolen down.


I think they've got that guy: Jay Bruce. Dusty just refuses to bat left handers back-to-back.

lonewolf371
04-06-2011, 10:35 AM
I think Jonny Gomes is as close to that as the Reds have/can afford to bring in right now. He could hit 30+ if given regular playing time all season. I realize he's not wildly popular for the 4 spot but looking at some other teams clean up hitters it doesn't seem that bad.
Well Gomes had regular playing time last year and he only hit 18. He actually hit more homers when he was being platooned. Probably because he was always hitting with favorable match-ups against lefties and didn't have any righties around to put him in a funk.


I think they've got that guy: Jay Bruce. Dusty just refuses to bat left handers back-to-back.
I don't have that much of a problem with it. Bruce was historically abysmal against lefties until last season. If he keeps it up against lefties, I may see him getting bumped up to 4th because he was actually better against lefties than Rolen last year. But, there's also the thing about small sample size and remembering how bad Bruce was against lefties prior to last year.

You also have concerns about Bruce's mentality. Hitting 4th is different than hitting 5th. If the offense in the #1 scoring offense in the NL, why mess with it?

Pony Boy
04-06-2011, 11:30 AM
How about Hunter Pence? He would certainly be cheaper than Choo and the Astros are desperate (or at least should be) for young starting pitching.

bshall2105
04-06-2011, 02:05 PM
How about Hunter Pence? He would certainly be cheaper than Choo and the Astros are desperate (or at least should be) for young starting pitching.

I think he would actually be more expensive than Choo. He is pretty much the face of the Astros right now.

Pony Boy
04-06-2011, 02:40 PM
I think he would actually be more expensive than Choo. He is pretty much the face of the Astros right now.

That is sad if true. Pence isnt in the same league as Choo.

lonewolf371
04-06-2011, 03:58 PM
I think he would actually be more expensive than Choo. He is pretty much the face of the Astros right now.
Choo is the face of the Indians and much better.

Pence is okay. Apparently he hates line drives and as a result has a low BABIP, resulting in a low OBP. With a sub-.200 ISO and no season with a SLG above .500, he doesn't exactly have the profile of a clean-up hitter. He doesn't exactly mash lefties, either. He's a snippet better than Gomes offensively and decidedly worse than Rolen, even counting the bad part of Rolen's season last year.

The main benefit of acquiring Pence would simply be having a legit defender at LF. I'm not sure it would be worth whatever we'd pay for him. He's not worth giving up Alonso, Mes, Grandal, or even Cozart, IMO.

bshall2105
04-06-2011, 04:07 PM
Choo is the face of the Indians and much better.

Pence is okay. Apparently he hates line drives and as a result has a low BABIP, resulting in a low OBP. With a sub-.200 ISO and no season with a SLG above .500, he doesn't exactly have the profile of a clean-up hitter. He doesn't exactly mash lefties, either. He's a snippet better than Gomes offensively and decidedly worse than Rolen, even counting the bad part of Rolen's season last year.

The main benefit of acquiring Pence would simply be having a legit defender at LF. I'm not sure it would be worth whatever we'd pay for him. He's not worth giving up Alonso, Mes, Grandal, or even Cozart, IMO.

Pence hit over .280 last year with just over 90 rbi. It's not like he wouldn't start on most teams. I just think that the Astros would be less willing to part with Pence than the Indians with Choo, which would drive up his cost a bit.

lonewolf371
04-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Pence hit over .280 last year with just over 90 rbi. It's not like he wouldn't start on most teams. I just think that the Astros would be less willing to part with Pence than the Indians with Choo, which would drive up his cost a bit.
Yeah, marginal improvement over Gomes' .266 and 86 RBI.

There's no way it would be easier to get Choo than Pence. Choo is a much better player.

AVG: .282 vs. .300
OBP: .325 vs. .401
SLG: .461 vs. .484
wOBA: .341 vs. .388

Across the board Choo is a lot better, and he's cost-controlled. Pence is okay, but he's not great.

Pony Boy
04-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Pence hit over .280 last year with just over 90 rbi. It's not like he wouldn't start on most teams. I just think that the Astros would be less willing to part with Pence than the Indians with Choo, which would drive up his cost a bit.

I think that is called the Sean Casey Paradox.