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Shawn_RedsFan
04-12-2011, 09:54 AM
I've never divided my full attention to the minors but I've noticed Hamilton has 4 errors already, is he really this bad defensively or just going to through a funk right now??

Thanks in advance

StubbsFan#6
04-12-2011, 11:23 AM
I don't know a whole lot, but I bet it's a combo of early season jitters, adjustment back to SS, and a little bit a funk. Didi had a ton of errors last season and from everything I've heard he will stick there. I think Billy will be fine, and has all the tools to stick and be successful

Scrap Irony
04-12-2011, 12:46 PM
The field may also be in rough shape. Some minor league fields are notorious for the shape they're in. Hamilton, IMO, will end up an above average fielder, as his range, footwork, speed, and quickness are all top-notch, and his arm, apparently, is solidly average for the position.

TOBTTReds
04-12-2011, 02:57 PM
The field may also be in rough shape. Some minor league fields are notorious for the shape they're in. Hamilton, IMO, will end up an above average fielder, as his range, footwork, speed, and quickness are all top-notch, and his arm, apparently, is solidly average for the position.

Playing devils advocate here...

The Dragons have a darn nice infield
I've heard nothing that makes him an above average fielder
Great quickness/speed hardly makes you have great range in the IF
I've only read that his arm is below average for SS, and will have to move to 2B.

I hope he's a SS forever, if not, would love to see him in CF.

JayBruceFan
04-12-2011, 03:20 PM
Not sure how to explain it but from what I have seen so far, it looks like he is playing a little too "fast", if that makes sense

dougdirt
04-12-2011, 03:35 PM
Not sure how to explain it but from what I have seen so far, it looks like he is playing a little too "fast", if that makes sense

That is exactly what I was thinking too. Which is probably a bit of the jitters. He seems to be reacting so quickly on things. I know one error was a poor throw (short hopped it to the first baseman - I have video of it), but I don't have any doubt that he is going to stick at shortstop if the spot is open for him when/if he is ready for the majors. He has the range, easily, and his arm will play there just fine.

redsof72
04-12-2011, 03:50 PM
He has a long way to go defensively but has the tools to be a special player IF it all comes together. He needs to improve significantly on understanding how to get a convenient hop rather than just charging every ball hard and running himself into a tough play. He will make a play in every game that Cozart or Rojas would not make due to speed and athleticism, but there will be three that he won't make that those guys would due to poorer hands and overall fielding skills. This is still a raw player. His baseball skills are not that advanced. He has athletic skills that are extremely rare. He needs time to become a baseball player.

In five games, I have seen him make two or three plays that almost no one makes, but he has four errors and there have been a couple others that could have been errors. We have been spoiled in Dayton with Cozart and Rojas, who were the best in the league, and then Gregorius, who was not as consistent but certainly serviceable. Hamilton has a ways to go to catch up to Gregorius.

TOBTTReds
04-13-2011, 08:49 AM
Redsof72, don't forget Janish. He was one of the best in the Midwest League his time there (of course, he's top notch in the bigs too, so I guess that would make sense).

Does Hamilton have a nickname yet? The Blur, Flash...?

lollipopcurve
04-13-2011, 09:32 AM
He has a long way to go defensively but has the tools to be a special player IF it all comes together. He needs to improve significantly on understanding how to get a convenient hop rather than just charging every ball hard and running himself into a tough play. He will make a play in every game that Cozart or Rojas would not make due to speed and athleticism, but there will be three that he won't make that those guys would due to poorer hands and overall fielding skills. This is still a raw player. His baseball skills are not that advanced. He has athletic skills that are extremely rare. He needs time to become a baseball player.

Interesting, 72. Fortunately, the Reds can afford to be patient with Hamilton, and short of his having bad hands or an inaccurate arm, he should be able to stabilize his play and become a reliable defender in time.

Scrap Irony
04-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Playing devils advocate here...

The Dragons have a darn nice infield
I've heard nothing that makes him an above average fielder
Great quickness/speed hardly makes you have great range in the IF
I've only read that his arm is below average for SS, and will have to move to 2B.

I hope he's a SS forever, if not, would love to see him in CF.

1) It's a darn nice infield for a minor league stadium. It's nothing like a major league infield.
2) Superior range has been discussed on this board and by scouts and Red personnel ad nauseum vis a vis Hamilton. It's one of his best tools. The apochryphal story from Billy Doran about Hamilton catching the ball steps away from the warning track in left field is an example.
3) See two. Add scouting services that rate his reaction time as superior. Add in solid reviews of his glove.
4) If you've been told his arm is below average, you've been told incorrectly. It's plenty good enough to play SS at the major league level. While it's not a plus tool, it's average at worst. Anyone who mentions the "weak arm" is simply spouting forth something they know nothing about. I guarantee they've never seen the kid play.

TOBTTReds
04-13-2011, 01:32 PM
1) It's a darn nice infield for a minor league stadium. It's nothing like a major league infield.
2) Superior range has been discussed on this board and by scouts and Red personnel ad nauseum vis a vis Hamilton. It's one of his best tools. The apochryphal story from Billy Doran about Hamilton catching the ball steps away from the warning track in left field is an example.
3) See two. Add scouting services that rate his reaction time as superior. Add in solid reviews of his glove.
4) If you've been told his arm is below average, you've been told incorrectly. It's plenty good enough to play SS at the major league level. While it's not a plus tool, it's average at worst. Anyone who mentions the "weak arm" is simply spouting forth something they know nothing about. I guarantee they've never seen the kid play.


Sounds good to me! I'm in.

As far as his arm goes...I think Baseball America is the only publication I see that says his arm may not play at SS if I recall correctly.

Just out of curiosity, and I'm not doubting, but how many times have you seen him play (this year or in the past)?

billy bob
04-13-2011, 01:47 PM
I know you are not asking me but I've seen him play about 15 games since he signed and YES he has the arm for SS.

TOBTTReds
04-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I know you are not asking me but I've seen him play about 15 games since he signed and YES he has the arm for SS.

Good to hear. Did you see him in FL or Billings? Just wondering what he has changed in his almost two years here offensively.

medford
04-13-2011, 02:57 PM
While he'll never get confused for Ozzie Smith out in the field, Derrick Jeter once committed just short of a bazillion errors at SS in the low minors, give Billy some time and let him work into the position.

For whatever reason, the Reds didn't have him play a ton of SS last year in Billings. He may need half a season to get his feet wet again and start making the routine plays, well routinely. The most important thing at this level, is the he maintains and flashes the tools that show he has potential to play SS in the major. Only time and work will make him completely comfortable at the position on all the routine plays, letting the game slow down a bit for him and reducing the number of errors.

TOBTTReds
04-13-2011, 04:17 PM
*Disclaimer on all my comments: I'm a big fan of his, don't get this confused with me not thinking he's a good fielder with an arm that will play. I honestly don't know much about his fielding, and have only seen what BA says about his arm.

billy bob
04-13-2011, 04:32 PM
Seen him at each level... Florida, Billings and Dayton.

Shawn_RedsFan
04-13-2011, 10:15 PM
Didn't expect this much feedback!! :D. Thank you guys for clearing that up for me.

TOBTTReds
04-14-2011, 08:53 AM
Seen him at each level... Florida, Billings and Dayton.

You have a lot of free time, related to him, or work for the org/in baseball?

billy bob
04-14-2011, 09:20 AM
Yep and is there anything wrong with that??????? HAHA HAHA

signalhome
04-14-2011, 11:10 AM
That is exactly what I was thinking too. Which is probably a bit of the jitters. He seems to be reacting so quickly on things. I know one error was a poor throw (short hopped it to the first baseman - I have video of it), but I don't have any doubt that he is going to stick at shortstop if the spot is open for him when/if he is ready for the majors. He has the range, easily, and his arm will play there just fine.

When you say he has the range, are you saying he'll be around league average? Or are you thinking above average to whatever extent?

TOBTTReds
04-14-2011, 11:22 AM
Yep and is there anything wrong with that??????? HAHA HAHA

I want your schedule!

billy bob
04-14-2011, 11:40 AM
and when you get to be my age you can have it... That's the advantage of being OLD

TOBTTReds
04-14-2011, 01:27 PM
and when you get to be my age you can have it... That's the advantage of being OLD

Don't know how "old" you are, but at least you are livin it up so it seems.

SidneySlicker
06-05-2011, 09:02 PM
Had a chance to see Hamilton play this last Wed. Granted it was only one game, but I don't see it. Listen the kid can fly there's no doubt, but he's got to get on base first. He's NOT a shortstop. I'd say he probably has a below average arm for a second baseman let alone ss. Hope he proves me wrong because he can really cause problems on the basepaths combined with the fact that the Reds really don't have anything down the pipe at ss.

11larkin11
06-14-2011, 11:53 PM
After watching the Reds game tonight, can someone give me a comparison on Hamilton and Dee Gordon? Obviously Hamilton still has a ways to go and things can change, but I'd love a scouting comparison.

dougdirt
06-14-2011, 11:57 PM
After watching the Reds game tonight, can someone give me a comparison on Hamilton and Dee Gordon? Obviously Hamilton still has a ways to go and things can change, but I'd love a scouting comparison.

From a pure tools standpoint, they are extremely similar. Speed, range, arm are all similar. The one major difference between the two guys is size. Both are slight of frame type guys, but Dee Gordon is 5' 7", while Billy Hamilton is 6' 1". I think that could come into play one day in the future when it comes to projecting their bats. I don't expect either guy to hit for power, but I think Hamilton has a better chance to hit a few baseball's over the fence one day than Gordon does. With that said, Hamilton is quite a ways away from the day.

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2011, 12:59 AM
Had a chance to see Hamilton play this last Wed. Granted it was only one game, but I don't see it. Listen the kid can fly there's no doubt, but he's got to get on base first. He's NOT a shortstop. I'd say he probably has a below average arm for a second baseman let alone ss. Hope he proves me wrong because he can really cause problems on the basepaths combined with the fact that the Reds really don't have anything down the pipe at ss.

Not sure what the definition of "down the pipe" is ... but if it means what I think it does, you might want to read up on Zack Cozart.

Homer Bailey
06-15-2011, 02:09 AM
From a pure tools standpoint, they are extremely similar. Speed, range, arm are all similar. The one major difference between the two guys is size. Both are slight of frame type guys, but Dee Gordon is 5' 7", while Billy Hamilton is 6' 1". I think that could come into play one day in the future when it comes to projecting their bats. I don't expect either guy to hit for power, but I think Hamilton has a better chance to hit a few baseball's over the fence one day than Gordon does. With that said, Hamilton is quite a ways away from the day.

Is Hamilton really 6'1"? The spring training game that I watched made me think he's 5'10" at MOST. Obviously I'm watching from a computer monitor, but I had heard other people comment that he is "tiny". Also, Scully said on the broadcast that Gordon is 6'0", and ESPN has him listed as 5'11".

nate1213
06-15-2011, 02:22 AM
From a pure tools standpoint, they are extremely similar. Speed, range, arm are all similar. The one major difference between the two guys is size. Both are slight of frame type guys, but Dee Gordon is 5' 7", while Billy Hamilton is 6' 1". I think that could come into play one day in the future when it comes to projecting their bats. I don't expect either guy to hit for power, but I think Hamilton has a better chance to hit a few baseball's over the fence one day than Gordon does. With that said, Hamilton is quite a ways away from the day.

Hamilton is faster than Gordon correct?

757690
06-15-2011, 02:39 AM
Is Hamilton really 6'1"? The spring training game that I watched made me think he's 5'10" at MOST. Obviously I'm watching from a computer monitor, but I had heard other people comment that he is "tiny". Also, Scully said on the broadcast that Gordon is 6'0", and ESPN has him listed as 5'11".

I've seen both in person, and whatever their actual height is, Hamilton has at least 3 inches on Gordon, maybe as many as 5.

Here's a pic of Gordon next Ethier, who is 6'2".

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef014e88fad313970d-800wi

BuckeyeRedleg
06-15-2011, 08:33 AM
If Dee Gordon is really 5-7, I can't imagine he weighs much more than 120.

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Another thing to keep in mind for those that don't know: Hamilton was also a standout football player in high school and had signed a full-ride football scholarship with Mississippi State. They are bottom-of-the-barrel SEC, but he was still good enough to sign a football schollie with an SEC school.

That tells me the kid has toughness which is an underrated trait in baseball. Yes, he likely got his football offer based on speed, but you can't be a wuss and play football good enough to get an SEC offer. While I'm concerned about Hamilton's bat, something tells me he will continue to improve and will eventually be a decent Major League second baseman. But he's long way from getting there for sure.

GOYA
06-15-2011, 02:59 PM
It great to see Billy hitting but I notice that he has stopped taking BBs. One step at a time, I guess.

dougdirt
06-15-2011, 05:48 PM
If Dee Gordon is really 5-7, I can't imagine he weighs much more than 120.

I have stood next to Dee Gorgon. He is every bit of 5' 7". I am 5' 9" and was clearly taller.

dougdirt
06-15-2011, 05:49 PM
It great to see Billy hitting but I notice that he has stopped taking BBs. One step at a time, I guess.

Yeah. At a similar time, his teammate Yorman Rodriguez hasn't been hitting, but he has been drawing plenty of walks. With guys who are raw, you look for improvements in weak areas even if stronger areas take a step back for a short period of time.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-16-2011, 12:41 AM
I have stood next to Dee Gorgon. He is every bit of 5' 7". I am 5' 9" and was clearly taller.

So he's 120 dripping wet.

Good player and I'm sure he'll eventually gain some lbs, but for now he's Michael Jackson size (post 'fro).

dougdirt
06-16-2011, 12:46 AM
So he's 120 dripping wet.

Good player and I'm sure he'll eventually gain some lbs, but for now he's Michael Jackson size (post 'fro).

I don't think he is ever going to really gain any good weight. His frame is incredibly tiny. I just don't see the chance he adds much good weight at all to it.

Superdude
06-16-2011, 01:15 AM
I don't think he is ever going to really gain any good weight. His frame is incredibly tiny. I just don't see the chance he adds much good weight at all to it.

I have trouble buying into this completely. I understand some people have better genes than others when it comes to muscle building, but aren't muscles all cut from essentially the same cloth so to speak? If you lift hard and eat right, your muscles are bound to respond to some degree. I don't believe players do much if any hard lifting during the season, so that throws a kink in things, but to say flat out that a player will never add good weight just doesn't sound right to me.

dougdirt
06-16-2011, 02:16 AM
I have trouble buying into this completely. I understand some people have better genes than others when it comes to muscle building, but aren't muscles all cut from essentially the same cloth so to speak? If you lift hard and eat right, your muscles are bound to respond to some degree. I don't believe players do much if any hard lifting during the season, so that throws a kink in things, but to say flat out that a player will never add good weight just doesn't sound right to me.

Not all muscle is cut from the same cloth. And I will say this, until you see this guy in person and see his frame, you simply won't get what I am referring to. He is built like a 13 year old boy.

OnBaseMachine
06-18-2011, 01:19 PM
From the DDN:


Hamilton streaking: Dragons shortstop Billy Hamilton entered play hitting .319 over his last 18 games, raising his batting average from .195 to .230. Yet somehow, despite leading all of professional baseball with 53 stolen bases, the Redsí top prospect is not a Midwest League All-Star.



http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/dayton-dragons/dragons-former-3rd-round-pick-lohman-sent-to-billings-1187740.html

dougdirt
06-18-2011, 01:33 PM
From the DDN:



http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/dayton-dragons/dragons-former-3rd-round-pick-lohman-sent-to-billings-1187740.html

Because when you are hitting .200 no matter how many steals you have you aren't all star worthy. Poor writing there. The Dragons certainly had some all star snubs. The best hitting catcher in the league at the time of the announcement was Barnhart who was left off. Drew Hayes has an ERA under 1.50 and didn't make the team. A shortstop hitting .200 isn't a snub.

Blitz Dorsey
06-19-2011, 01:31 AM
Yeah, it's pretty absurd for anyone (especially a "journalist") to whine about Hamilton not making the Midwest League all-star team. I'm just glad he's turned around what looked like a horrible season. Very encouraged with the play of BH, Yorman and Juan Duran over the last month.

EDIT: It's also poor writing to say Hamilton is "the Reds' top prospect." He's more like "one of their top prospects." Chapman would be #1, followed by Mesoraco, then Yonder, then Yorman, then Francisco, then Boxberger ... then maybe Billy.