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View Full Version : Taxing the Bullpen Dusty



HUHUH
04-18-2011, 10:25 PM
I was at the game Saturday. Leake went 6, then was pulled. I won't argue that (although I maybe should). With a huge lead (I think 9-2), Dusty runs out Smith, Bray and Masset for one inning each. WHY? Why not let one of them throw the rest of the game (or at least 2 innings) and save the rest? Getting guys up every night means more than just throwing 13 (or whatever) pitches. Warmups in the bullpen, warmups before each inning; sending a reliever out there puts some stress on the arm. So why, oh why, send out 3 of them in a blowout game? I go back to Jack McKeown and the 99 bullpen. He'd tend to use one or two guys for multiple innings, and save the others for later.

The night previous he let Maloney bat, for as the announcers assured us, to "save the pen". Well what does Dusty do then? Brings in Ondrusek to pitch the ninth? Why? Trying to keep everybody fresh? But in the next breath, Dusty will complain that the bullpen is overtaxed.

Chapman pitches 4 games in 5 days. Why? Jordan Smith comes in tonight, for the third straight day, and obviously had nothing. If Dusty could ever overcome the "one inning per guy" retardedness, this bullpen might be good. As it is, running half the bullpen out there every night, regardless of the score; ain't gonna work.

Dusty's quotes on Chapman: we gotta see if he can go back-to-back nights, or see how many games in a row he can pitch. Well, that's an interesting question, but when you've got a 7 run lead and use 3 guys out of the pen in three innings, you are taxing the pen for NO REASON.

I understand that these days you have a "seventh inning" guy, and "eigth inning" guy, etc. But for gosh sakes Dusty, try having some guts, being creative, and going against the grain for once in your career.

If we continue to see 3+ relievers every night (and even though the starters deserve some of the blame, there are still alternative approaches) its gonna be a long season.

Kingspoint
04-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Don't know if it's a philosophy similar to the Atlanta Braves where they always liked having their pitchers warm up every day, or not. It worked for them. Most don't do it. Maybe Dusty is trying to get everyone as much work as he can get them in April and May so that come June, everyone will be as strong as stretched out as possible. It's hard to understand the decisions of a Manager in April and May. I'm sure there's another 1000 or so factors that I didn't even mention.

HUHUH
04-18-2011, 10:36 PM
Watching the end of the Monday Pirates game. So here's Masset replacing Maloney. Gotta keep guys sharp, eh?

Chris Welsh informs us that Masset threw over 70 and 80 games the last two years. So lets run him out there in a 9-1 loss to keep him sharp and help him find it? Maybe sit his a#$*& a few games to get his legs back and save him for the fall. Ever think of that Dusty?

texasdave
04-18-2011, 10:41 PM
Don't know if it's a philosophy similar to the Atlanta Braves where they always liked having their pitchers warm up every day, or not. It worked for them. Most don't do it. Maybe Dusty is trying to get everyone as much work as he can get them in April and May so that come June, everyone will be as strong as stretched out as possible. It's hard to understand the decisions of a Manager in April and May. I'm sure there's another 1000 or so factors that I didn't even mention.

Overtaxing the bullpen is never a good idea. Ever. I don't care about the other 1000 or so factors.

HUHUH
04-18-2011, 11:05 PM
Boy Chapman looks good tonight after the concern about his velocity. Wonder why. Maybe a few days off helped? Had hoped to see Bray and Ondrusek too tonight. Am hoping to see someone's arm fall off. GET A CLUE DUSTY AND PRICE!

Kingspoint
04-19-2011, 05:41 AM
Walt is watching.

Vottomatic
04-19-2011, 07:35 AM
I'm really disappointed that Dusty didn't throw each of those guys at one batter so we could get all 12 of our pitchers in that game. :D

Seriously, I agree with the OP. Make one guy throw 2 or 3 innings unless he gets into trouble. This is one of the dumbest managerial moves I've seen in a long time.

HUHUH
04-19-2011, 08:15 AM
Thank you Vottomatic! You and I should be running things, eh? The problem is that this "chess game" of shuffling relievers is systemic throughout baseball. It all starts with the philosophy of the "closer". And any manager who goes against the grain (for example, doesn't bring in the closer in a save situation, or lets the 8th inning guy pitch 2 innings heaven forbid) will get called out by the media if it goes awry. And I've never thought of Dusty as a guy who thinks out of the box. So we'll just have to live with it: watch the parade of relievers (probably 12-15 throughout the year) and guys blow games because they aren't rested.

Who Dey Time
04-19-2011, 12:55 PM
Facts are that there isn't a whole lot a manager can do when his starting pitching is consistently struggling to get through 5-6 innings. And, believe it or not it can be taxing on a relief pitcher to throw 50-60 pitches over 2-3 innings when they are accustomed to throwing one inning (25 pitches or so).

No way I have Bray go more than one inning given that he is still getting back to 100% with his elbow. Right now, Maloney is the only guy who you can use to give you 2+ innings. That'll obviously change once Bailey and Cueto get back since, IMO, someone between Leake, LeCure and Volquez is headed to the bullpen.

Finally, at some point, guys like Masset, Chapman, Cordero are going to have to pitch 2-3 nights in a row if the Reds are in the race like we all expect come this fall. If they can't do it now, what is there to believe that they will be able to in September. Better to answer these questions in April than in the middle of the pennant race in September.

LeDoux
04-19-2011, 01:33 PM
The problem is that this "chess game" of shuffling relievers is systemic throughout baseball. It all starts with the philosophy of the "closer". And any manager who goes against the grain (for example, doesn't bring in the closer in a save situation, or lets the 8th inning guy pitch 2 innings heaven forbid) will get called out by the media if it goes awry. And I've never thought of Dusty as a guy who thinks out of the box. So we'll just have to live with it: watch the parade of relievers (probably 12-15 throughout the year) and guys blow games because they aren't rested.

I think there is some real insight here. I would think a starting rotation of 5, a middle rotation of 4, capable of pitching 3-4 innings, and 2 or 3 closers/stoppers/setupmen would be more effectivethen the current system. But you are right. Most managers, especially Dusty, are quite risk averse and not likely to try something new.

Krawhitham
04-19-2011, 01:44 PM
Watching the end of the Monday Pirates game. So here's Masset replacing Maloney. Gotta keep guys sharp, eh?

Chris Welsh informs us that Masset threw over 70 and 80 games the last two years. So lets run him out there in a 9-1 loss to keep him sharp and help him find it? Maybe sit his a#$*& a few games to get his legs back and save him for the fall. Ever think of that Dusty?

He wanted Masset in a game that did not matter, trying to get him back on track

When Leake was pulled he was already at 102 pitches

Krawhitham
04-19-2011, 01:49 PM
Boy Chapman looks good tonight after the concern about his velocity. Wonder why. Maybe a few days off helped? Had hoped to see Bray and Ondrusek too tonight. Am hoping to see someone's arm fall off. GET A CLUE DUSTY AND PRICE!

When your starting 5 have an ERA of 5.24 your bullpen will be taxed

Roid boy 6.75
Wood 5.73
5 fingers 5.40
Mono man 4.24
The Cure 2.45

markymark69
04-19-2011, 05:50 PM
Some of the points are valid and I understand this need to nitpick everything a manager does - but until the Reds start getting better starting pitching - both innings and pitch-efficiency wise or they are able to petition MLB for them to expand the rosters in order to have 20 pitchers - a lot of times he doesn't have a choice.

Perhaps Dusty can keep Volquez out there and let him throw 227 pitches just to keep from going to the bullpen?

Then there are match-ups and situations and "the Book" that all managers go by.

Dusty is not alone in this philosophy.

Kingspoint
04-20-2011, 07:23 PM
Facts are that there isn't a whole lot a manager can do when his starting pitching is consistently struggling to get through 5-6 innings. And, believe it or not it can be taxing on a relief pitcher to throw 50-60 pitches over 2-3 innings when they are accustomed to throwing one inning (25 pitches or so).

No way I have Bray go more than one inning given that he is still getting back to 100% with his elbow. Right now, Maloney is the only guy who you can use to give you 2+ innings. That'll obviously change once Bailey and Cueto get back since, IMO, someone between Leake, LeCure and Volquez is headed to the bullpen.

Finally, at some point, guys like Masset, Chapman, Cordero are going to have to pitch 2-3 nights in a row if the Reds are in the race like we all expect come this fall. If they can't do it now, what is there to believe that they will be able to in September. Better to answer these questions in April than in the middle of the pennant race in September.

For a guy who's only posted 12 times, that's a nice post.