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View Full Version : Ryan Braun and Brewers agree through 2020



Hondo
04-21-2011, 04:27 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/brewers-extend-ryan-braun-through-2020.html

For all you people talking about Votto not staying. I hope you Hold your team accountable for this teams Star!

Keep Votto! Long Term!

The Cincinnati Reds have absolutely ZERO Excuse why not to keep our Franchise Player Now.

bounty37h
04-21-2011, 04:37 PM
They tried to sign Votto long term also but he wasnt interested, cant hold that on the Reds.

brm7675
04-21-2011, 04:44 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/brewers-extend-ryan-braun-through-2020.html

For all you people talking about Votto not staying. I hope you Hold your team accountable for this teams Star!

Keep Votto! Long Term!

The Cincinnati Reds have absolutely ZERO Excuse why not to keep our Franchise Player Now.

I can give you millions of reasons why the don't keep him. The Reds are going to have millions tied up in a greater number of players then the Brew Crew will have.

Hondo
04-21-2011, 05:00 PM
I can give you millions of reasons why the don't keep him. The Reds are going to have millions tied up in a greater number of players then the Brew Crew will have.

You just gave me one and it wasn't even a reason. It was like something a Devils Advocate would say...

There is absolutley No Reason the Reds can't offer Votto similar terms to Braun/Gonzalez.

This team should be held acountable or should it be like the Indians of the late 1990's or the Royals of the early 90's and be a AAAA Farm System for the rest of the Big Leagues...

DaytonFlyer
04-21-2011, 05:14 PM
I have no idea why they would sign him until he's 37. There is a very good chance that the last 2-4 years of the contract, they are going to be paying him for little or no production.

Hondo
04-21-2011, 05:17 PM
I have no idea why they would sign him until he's 37. There is a very good chance that the last 2-4 years of the contract, they are going to be paying him for little or no production.

I think its great for baseball what Colorado has done with Tulo and what the Brewers have done with Braun...

Yount with Brewers
Brett with Royals
Ripken with Orioles
Jones with Atlanta
Jeter with Yankees

Having 1 team Stars is what this game needs.

FlightRick
04-21-2011, 05:57 PM
For all you people talking about Votto not staying. I hope you Hold your team accountable for this teams Star! The Cincinnati Reds have absolutely ZERO Excuse why not to keep our Franchise Player Now.

Um, not to point out the stultifyingly obvious, but nobody's ever said the Reds won't try to keep Votto, and no fan has ever said they want the Reds to let him walk. I'm not sure who you're trying to argue against.

Further, if you're suggesting the Brewers' move with Braun has any bearing on our situation with Votto, you're creating a false equivalency. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Braun is not an MVP, and probably never will be. Braun is under contract till 2015, and would be starting his new contract at the age of 32 (potentially already in decline; certainly negotiating his last multi-year contract). He has some level of uncertainty as to what his market value would be in 5 years, so he took present-day mega-star money ($21m per year) for a contract extension that will pay him well into his decline years, but that'll be OK because by the time of his age 37 season, $21m will be like paying a guy $15 in relative terms.

Votto is an MVP, and may well be again. Votto is under contract till 2013, and at age 30, could still be in a position to play for 2 multi-year contracts before his value declines, or in position to negotiation for one very-long-term contract. He is also in a position to be relatively certain of his value only 3 years into the future, so has no reason to take present-day mega-star money when he'll still be a mega-star in the future. He can wait and sign his extention then, and be paid the going rate for mega-stars (which won't be $21m per year).

If Joey Votto could be had for $105m, spread out between 2014-2018 (following his current 3yr/$38 deal), I think most of us would want that deal done just as much as you, dude. I think the Reds would be more than happy to offer it, too. The question is whether Votto's camp would agree to it.

Between Joey's resistence to long-term commitments, and the fact that offering him a Braun deal would not only under-value him in terms of dollars but also short-change him at least 2 years worth of guaranteed money that he could get with a longer-term offer on the free agent market in 2013, and there's just no way you can use Braun's deal as any sort of precedent for dealing with Votto.

5yr/$105m doesn't get it done. Not even close.


Rick

brm7675
04-21-2011, 06:11 PM
You just gave me one and it wasn't even a reason. It was like something a Devils Advocate would say...

There is absolutley No Reason the Reds can't offer Votto similar terms to Braun/Gonzalez.

This team should be held acountable or should it be like the Indians of the late 1990's or the Royals of the early 90's and be a AAAA Farm System for the rest of the Big Leagues...

Votto is going to commaned between 22-28 million per year when his next contract is done and while yes the Reds "can" afford it, at what expense. so you sign Votto, whom do you lose and is it a fair trade off?

brm7675
04-21-2011, 06:14 PM
I think its great for baseball what Colorado has done with Tulo and what the Brewers have done with Braun...

Yount with Brewers
Brett with Royals
Ripken with Orioles
Jones with Atlanta
Jeter with Yankees

Having 1 team Stars is what this game needs.

Yount, Brett and Ripken played back before today's market existed, Jones is an exception and well would you WANT Jeter as your SS right now and at what they are paying him?

Hondo
04-21-2011, 06:16 PM
Um, not to point out the stultifyingly obvious, but nobody's ever said the Reds won't try to keep Votto, and no fan has ever said they want the Reds to let him walk. I'm not sure who you're trying to argue against.

Further, if you're suggesting the Brewers' move with Braun has any bearing on our situation with Votto, you're creating a false equivalency. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Braun is not an MVP, and probably never will be. Braun is under contract till 2015, and would be starting his new contract at the age of 32 (potentially already in decline; certainly negotiating his last multi-year contract). He has some level of uncertainty as to what his market value would be in 5 years, so he took present-day mega-star money ($21m per year) for a contract extension that will pay him well into his decline years, but that'll be OK because by the time of his age 37 season, $21m will be like paying a guy $15 in relative terms.

Votto is an MVP, and may well be again. Votto is under contract till 2013, and at age 30, could still be in a position to play for 2 multi-year contracts before his value declines, or in position to negotiation for one very-long-term contract. He is also in a position to be relatively certain of his value only 3 years into the future, so has no reason to take present-day mega-star money when he'll still be a mega-star in the future. He can wait and sign his extention then, and be paid the going rate for mega-stars (which won't be $21m per year).

If Joey Votto could be had for $105m, spread out between 2014-2018 (following his current 3yr/$38 deal), I think most of us would want that deal done just as much as you, dude. I think the Reds would be more than happy to offer it, too. The question is whether Votto's camp would agree to it.

Between Joey's resistence to long-term commitments, and the fact that offering him a Braun deal would not only under-value him in terms of dollars but also short-change him at least 2 years worth of guaranteed money that he could get with a longer-term offer on the free agent market in 2013, and there's just no way you can use Braun's deal as any sort of precedent for dealing with Votto.

5yr/$105m doesn't get it done. Not even close.


Rick

Rick,

With all due respect dude, the Reds need to keep their MVP Player. The point is not comparing Braun and Votto but comparing the Franchises.

The Brewers are committing to Braun, Weeks, Hart, and trying to keep in tact their Stars. You know Fielder is going to Free Agency with Boras as his Agent.

The Reds should Lock up Votto simply because Milwaukee is a division rival locking their Best Player (Fielder is not their Best player), St.Louis will most certainly keep Pujols...

The Reds need to Keep their stars and not be a AAAA Farm Club for the Rest of the League...

Also... Back to Fielder... He isn't the best player on the Brewers, Braun is because of his OBP, BA, and intangibles. Fielder is a One Trick Pony.

Also, when you said Braun is not an MVP candidate, that really wastes your Long Post explaing your stance on the Votto Contract Situation.

Braun is only 28 and coming into the PRIME of his Career and has already put up some pretty good numbers and full seasons.

brm7675
04-21-2011, 06:20 PM
Rick,

With all due respect dude, the Reds need to keep their MVP Player. The point is not comparing Braun and Votto but comparing the Franchises.

The Brewers are committing to Braun, Weeks, Hart, and trying to keep in tact their Stars. You know Fielder is going to Free Agency with Boras as his Agent.

The Reds should Lock up Votto simply because Milwaukee is a division rival locking their Best Player (Fielder is not their Best player), St.Louis will most certainly keep Pujols...

The Reds need to Keep their stars and not be a AAAA Farm Club for the Rest of the League...

Also... Back to Fielder... He isn't the best player on the Brewers, Braun is because of his OBP, BA, and intangibles. Fielder is a One Trick Pony.

Also, when you said Braun is not an MVP candidate, that really wastes your Long Post explaing your stance on the Votto Contract Situation.

Braun is only 28 and coming into the PRIME of his Career and has already put up some pretty good numbers and full seasons.

The ability for the Reds to keep Votto is NOT in the hands of teh Reds. It is in the hands of the market and Votto. The Reds have X dollars to spend, and if the market will bear more then that value there is nothing the Reds can do. If Votto wants more then what the Reds can afford, there is nothing the Reds can do. Votto playing his entire career in Cincy is doubtful at best in today's baseball world and economies and that is okay.

FlightRick
04-21-2011, 06:54 PM
With all due respect dude, the Reds need to keep their MVP Player. The point is not comparing Braun and Votto but comparing the Franchises.

The Brewers are committing to Braun, Weeks, Hart, and trying to keep in tact their Stars. You know Fielder is going to Free Agency with Boras as his Agent.

The Reds should Lock up Votto simply because Milwaukee is a division rival locking their Best Player (Fielder is not their Best player), St.Louis will most certainly keep Pujols...

The Reds need to Keep their stars and not be a AAAA Farm Club for the Rest of the League...

Fine, let's compare franchises. The Brewers are committed to keeping their core intact, but are pretty much giving up on the recognizable face of their franchise because they know they can't afford him. And the Reds are a AAAA farm team, because they only have their face of the franchise under contract for 3 years.

I'll have to politely disagree with that assessment. The contract extensions of Bruce, Cueto, Hernandez, and Arroyo also disagree with you.

Compare the franchises, and I'd say they're on pretty even footing in terms of keeping talent in-house, with the exception of the fact that we have our star player locked in for 2 years longer than the Brewers. And if we have to let Votto go like the Brewers are letting Fielder go, it WILL NOT BE FOR A LACK OF TRYING.

That's what I was trying to get though with my post: if Votto could be had for 5yr/$105m, then of course we'd sign the extension. But I'm guessing that it'll take more like $7yr/$185m, and that's where you do have to take a step back and decide what's best for the franchise. Maybe in 2 years, the right move will be resigning him. Maybe it won't be. None of us can say for sure. But I'd like to think we'd agree that handing that to him today, just because of Ryan Braun, would be foolishness.


Also, when you said Braun is not an MVP candidate, that really wastes your Long Post explaing your stance on the Votto Contract Situation.

I'm not sure it diminishes the veracity of anything else I said. But I'm also willing to grant that I should have said "Braun is not an MVP, and may never be," instead of using "probably never will be." Anything is possible, but consider that there is only 1 MVP per year, and Braun only has 5, maybe 6, more shots at it before his skills are in decline.

Perhaps I left something unsaid in my first post: that I believe there's a very good chance that the Brewers just handed out a bad contract to Braun. He'll likely be getting overpaid the last 2-3 years of that contract, once he's on the wrong side of 35. Half or more of today's contract extension might be money down the toilet for the Brewers. To be clear: not "will," not "probably," but "might."

So to take it one step further: just because the Brewers handed out a bad contract today does not obligate the Reds to follow suit. The original poster suggested the Reds do exactly that with the questionable if/then statement, "If Brewers extend Braun at 5yr/$105m, then the Reds must do the same with Votto."

I'd love for Votto to be a lifelong Red as much as anyone here, but I was obligated to log my opinion about what I felt was a false equivalency...


Rick

Hondo
04-21-2011, 08:22 PM
Fine, let's compare franchises. The Brewers are committed to keeping their core intact, but are pretty much giving up on the recognizable face of their franchise because they know they can't afford him. And the Reds are a AAAA farm team, because they only have their face of the franchise under contract for 3 years.

I'll have to politely disagree with that assessment. The contract extensions of Bruce, Cueto, Hernandez, and Arroyo also disagree with you.

Compare the franchises, and I'd say they're on pretty even footing in terms of keeping talent in-house, with the exception of the fact that we have our star player locked in for 2 years longer than the Brewers. And if we have to let Votto go like the Brewers are letting Fielder go, it WILL NOT BE FOR A LACK OF TRYING.

That's what I was trying to get though with my post: if Votto could be had for 5yr/$105m, then of course we'd sign the extension. But I'm guessing that it'll take more like $7yr/$185m, and that's where you do have to take a step back and decide what's best for the franchise. Maybe in 2 years, the right move will be resigning him. Maybe it won't be. None of us can say for sure. But I'd like to think we'd agree that handing that to him today, just because of Ryan Braun, would be foolishness.



I'm not sure it diminishes the veracity of anything else I said. But I'm also willing to grant that I should have said "Braun is not an MVP, and may never be," instead of using "probably never will be." Anything is possible, but consider that there is only 1 MVP per year, and Braun only has 5, maybe 6, more shots at it before his skills are in decline.

Perhaps I left something unsaid in my first post: that I believe there's a very good chance that the Brewers just handed out a bad contract to Braun. He'll likely be getting overpaid the last 2-3 years of that contract, once he's on the wrong side of 35. Half or more of today's contract extension might be money down the toilet for the Brewers. To be clear: not "will," not "probably," but "might."

So to take it one step further: just because the Brewers handed out a bad contract today does not obligate the Reds to follow suit. The original poster suggested the Reds do exactly that with the questionable if/then statement, "If Brewers extend Braun at 5yr/$105m, then the Reds must do the same with Votto."

I'd love for Votto to be a lifelong Red as much as anyone here, but I was obligated to log my opinion about what I felt was a false equivalency...


Rick

At least we agree on that we Both want Votto Long Term.

My main focus is that the Reds got nothing when they signed the 3 year deal with Votto. They should have got at least 1 year of his Free Agency bought out... So IMO a 4 year Deal even if was a Team option for like 14-15 Million.

brm7675
04-21-2011, 08:36 PM
At least we agree on that we Both want Votto Long Term.

My main focus is that the Reds got nothing when they signed the 3 year deal with Votto. They should have got at least 1 year of his Free Agency bought out... So IMO a 4 year Deal even if was a Team option for like 14-15 Million.

don't you think they tried? I am willing to bet Votto wanted no part of that.

Hondo
04-22-2011, 02:02 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/01/votto-lozano-appear-to-make-smart-deal.html

Votto and his Agent make Smart Deal...

Proof is in the Pudding... Reds didn't save any Money and didn't get any of his Free Agent Years...

#justsayin

brm7675
04-22-2011, 03:01 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/01/votto-lozano-appear-to-make-smart-deal.html

Votto and his Agent make Smart Deal...

Proof is in the Pudding... Reds didn't save any Money and didn't get any of his Free Agent Years...

#justsayin

I don't think the deal had anything to do with "saving money" but to show Votto he is important to the team and the Reds are willing to pay him what he is worth and not having to have "contract" issues hang over Votto each season over the next 3. On the Reds part they come off looking good, and for Votto he doesn't have to give anything up. There was no way the Reds were getting any of his FA years, but maybe they bought themselves some good will by doing this deal.

SidneySlicker
04-22-2011, 03:30 PM
Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with rick and brm on this one. What’s gonna make it extra difficult to deal him is if the reds are in contention that third year. I think the best scenario is if it appears he is dead set on testing free agency is trading him in the off season in between year two and three. He will have a full seaon with the team he gets traded to at bargain price. This would maximize the return.

As far as the return goes, I'd start with four of your top ten farm players and would go no less than three and I would want five or six players total. Otherwise you say we'll just take our chances.

BPhillips4
04-22-2011, 06:14 PM
This all but assures that the Prince Fielder era in Milwaukee is done after this season.

Looks like it will avg out to around 11.5 million over the life of his contract extension he originally signed. Great deal for both Braun and the Crew

Reds
04-22-2011, 06:16 PM
They overpaid, only because he's underrated.

Hondo
04-22-2011, 06:29 PM
Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with rick and brm on this one. What’s gonna make it extra difficult to deal him is if the reds are in contention that third year. I think the best scenario is if it appears he is dead set on testing free agency is trading him in the off season in between year two and three. He will have a full seaon with the team he gets traded to at bargain price. This would maximize the return.

As far as the return goes, I'd start with four of your top ten farm players and would go no less than three and I would want five or six players total. Otherwise you say we'll just take our chances.

Brandon Phillips wont be on the team for 11 Million and Cordero (12 Million) is Off thr Books after this season...

The Reds can & Need to lock up Votto even if its 20 Million per season especially four years from now the Payroll will obviously be trending upward every year... Especially if this team can get into the playoffs deep and get more revenue from tickets and tv money...

BPhillips4
04-22-2011, 06:38 PM
They overpaid, only because he's underrated.
Maybe amongst casual baseball observers, but those who know the game know Braun's worth. Excellent deal.