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View Full Version : Is this offense not ready for the spotlight?



Farney
04-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Taking a look at the previous 4 games which have put this team in the "spotlight" by showcasing them to a national audience, the team is 0-4. The results of these 4 games are as follows:
1. Phillies 2, Reds 0 (0 hits)
2. Phillies 7, Reds 4 (no complaints)
3. Phillies 2, Reds 0 (5 hits)
4. Cardinals 3, Reds 0 (4 hits)

Its pretty easy to notice a trend, as 3 shutouts in 4 games is not good. The pitching is stepping it up for the most part, but the offense certainly has not. Hopefully this will come with experience, but to me this is the most concerning aspect of this team.

jfleur87
04-25-2011, 02:57 PM
My thoughts exactly. Was expressing the same sentiments to a co-worker this morning. They are probably putting too much pressure on themselves during these games that are on the "big stage". The good news in my mind is that the core of players that we all hope can stay together for awhile are getting good experience to the spotlight and hopefully can use that to their advantage going forward.

bounty37h
04-25-2011, 03:06 PM
I still think while this offense has made great strides the last year or so, our "league leading offense" was overrated a tad. Our situational hitting has gotten better over the last few years, but still too many all or nothing games.

bowlcut
04-25-2011, 03:52 PM
I was stunned last year we led the NL. Were extremely spurty. And last night was extremely dissapointing.

Hillsdale87
04-25-2011, 04:02 PM
Last year the Reds were the top offense but also were one of the tops in being shut out. There is a lot of talent on offense, but the problem is that Votto is the only one that is consistent. Bruce, Stubbs, Phillips, and Gomes could just as easily look like All Stars as go through a 1-25 streak. They'll pull out of it though. I think that once Bruce starts to turn it on, the offense is going to take off.

brm7675
04-25-2011, 04:13 PM
Greatness isn't born overnight, we have some growing and maturing to do. Two of our "key" players are still very young and very immature at the plate. Remember Votto wasn't Votto his first couple of seasons...

OGB
04-25-2011, 05:57 PM
I still think while this offense has made great strides the last year or so, our "league leading offense" was overrated a tad. Our situational hitting has gotten better over the last few years, but still too many all or nothing games.

Couldn't agree more. I still have high hopes for the Reds offense this year, but the title of "league leading offense" last year was absolutely fraudulent, IMHO. I'd take a team that scored fewer runs but was more consistent. I don't care if you average 5.5 runs/game but you get there by scoring 9 one game, 12 the next, and then get 1 run and 8 hits combined over your next two games.

signalhome
04-25-2011, 05:58 PM
Greatness isn't born overnight, we have some growing and maturing to do. Two of our "key" players are still very young and very immature at the plate. Remember Votto wasn't Votto his first couple of seasons...

Also remember that at Bruce's age (24) Votto was in AAA posting an .859 OPS -- Bruce posted an OPS of .846 last year at the MLB level.

That being said, it's easy to get frustrated with Bruce. He has the talent to be one of the best players in baseball, but he always seems to be pressing at the plate and not just letting the game come to him, as much as I hate to use that phrase.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9892&position=OF#platediscipline

Take a look at his plate discipline numbers. His O-Swing% is very troubling. If he would simply calm down and get that number back down to around 29% (what it was last year, which I believe is the league average, though I could be wrong on that), I think you would see his numbers skyrocket. It also doesn't help that his F-Strike% has jumped from 54.6% to 63.1%, but again I think that is a result of swinging at bad first pitches. If he would simply stop chasing out of the zone, he could absolutely be the hitter we saw in August and September of last year.

AlienFace
04-25-2011, 06:15 PM
This offense is feast or famine. They pad their stats against scrubs, but are easily exploited by good pitchers.

brm7675
04-25-2011, 06:22 PM
This offense is feast or famine. They pad their stats against scrubs, but are easily exploited by good pitchers.

You call the guy pitching last night 'good'? You call the pirates pitchers good?

AlienFace
04-25-2011, 06:34 PM
You call the guy pitching last night 'good'? You call the pirates pitchers good?
He's better than his stats make him look.

Magdal
04-25-2011, 06:53 PM
You call the guy pitching last night 'good'? You call the pirates pitchers good?Westbrook is poor pitcher, to be sure, but he was on his game last nite. It happens.

I agree that it is frustrating to pad the batting stats in blowouts, and hit poorly in close games. But the fact is this team can score runs, and can come from behind like nobody's business.

Don't worry about the bats....worry about the arms.

brm7675
04-25-2011, 06:59 PM
He's better than his stats make him look.

Can someone explain that to me? You are what your stats say you are, that is why we have stat's....

AlienFace
04-25-2011, 07:04 PM
Can someone explain that to me? You are what your stats say you are, that is why we have stat's....
Westbrook had an ERA over 9.00 going into the game last night. I think he's a better pitcher than that. It appears that you disagree.

Red in Atl
04-25-2011, 07:05 PM
The Cardinals may be "Whiny ******s", but then what does that make the Reds? A word that starts with a "P" works for me.

Haven't won a series in STL since '06. They scored 3 earned runs in the whole series. This is the team that always thinks it will win? Except when they play STL or play in Primetime. It's disgusting to watch. Makes me yearn for one player who isn't on the bench saying,

"Oooo playing the Cardinals is twwooo scary for me. Oooo everybody's watching me. I'm affwaid of those guys. I'm afwaid to look like I know how to play the game of baseball. Let's hurry home so we can woose 3 out of 4 to the Pirates again."

Yea I'm looking at you Jay. I don't care how young he is. He's been in the league 4 years.

And these guys are favored to win the Central? They will be lucky to place third.

:confused:

Magdal
04-25-2011, 07:18 PM
The Cardinals may be "Whiny ******s", but then what does that make the Reds? A word that starts with a "P" works for me.

Haven't won a series in STL since '06. They scored 3 earned runs in the whole series. This is the team that always thinks it will win? Except when they play STL or play in Primetime. It's disgusting to watch. Makes me yearn for one player who isn't on the bench saying,

"Oooo playing the Cardinals is twwooo scary for me. Oooo everybody's watching me. I'm affwaid of those guys. I'm afwaid to look like I know how to play the game of baseball. Let's hurry home so we can woose 3 out of 4 to the Pirates again."

Yea I'm looking at you Jay. I don't care how young he is. He's been in the league 4 years.

And these guys are favored to win the Central? They will be lucky to place third.

:confused:Hold on one minute! I understand your frustration, but TOO many things can happen in the next 5 months to assign the Reds 3rd place! Cool your jets! 2 guys are coming back soon that will lift the team.;)

Gunner44
04-25-2011, 07:36 PM
The Cardinals may be "Whiny ******s", but then what does that make the Reds? A word that starts with a "P" works for me.

Haven't won a series in STL since '06. They scored 3 earned runs in the whole series. This is the team that always thinks it will win? Except when they play STL or play in Primetime. It's disgusting to watch. Makes me yearn for one player who isn't on the bench saying,

"Oooo playing the Cardinals is twwooo scary for me. Oooo everybody's watching me. I'm affwaid of those guys. I'm afwaid to look like I know how to play the game of baseball. Let's hurry home so we can woose 3 out of 4 to the Pirates again."

Yea I'm looking at you Jay. I don't care how young he is. He's been in the league 4 years.

And these guys are favored to win the Central? They will be lucky to place third

I'd have to say thats a pretty big over reaction. Aprils not even over with. Every team scuffles along the way at some point. The pitching looked good last night besides one lucky swing of the bat for Molina. I think Rolen is a huge piece to this offence even if hes not playing well but is just in the line up. Kind of like a mental pick-up for the team. Hopefully Bruce snaps out of his funk and Gomes hits alittle better than he is now. They have all season to go and I think in the end the offence will be fine as one of the best in the league again, something just needs to snap them out of this team wide slump.

brm7675
04-25-2011, 07:40 PM
So unearned runs don't matter?

HUHUH
04-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Feast or famine is correct. Leading the league in offense last year was an aberration. This team relies WAY TOO MUCH on the long ball, and until that is rectified (situational hitting orders need to come from the top), they have no chance against the top pitchers.

redsfanmia
04-25-2011, 07:48 PM
Feast or famine is correct. Leading the league in offense last year was an aberration. This team relies WAY TOO MUCH on the long ball, and until that is rectified (situational hitting orders need to come from the top), they have no chance against the top pitchers.

I agree with this, I will also add that they struggle against top of the line pitching.

Red in Atl
04-26-2011, 12:48 PM
So unearned runs don't matter?

Not in the RBI department.

Red in Atl
04-26-2011, 12:56 PM
I'd have to say thats a pretty big over reaction. Aprils not even over with. Every team scuffles along the way at some point. The pitching looked good last night besides one lucky swing of the bat for Molina. I think Rolen is a huge piece to this offence even if hes not playing well but is just in the line up. Kind of like a mental pick-up for the team. Hopefully Bruce snaps out of his funk and Gomes hits alittle better than he is now. They have all season to go and I think in the end the offence will be fine as one of the best in the league again, something just needs to snap them out of this team wide slump.

All I'm saying is that we can't beat the Cardinals, and we can't win a game that's on National TV. Tell me the last time we've had success on either front. Not in this century. You will never win a WS if you can't beat your rival and/or win during Primetime.

Rolen is out and may be mostly unreliable the rest of the year. How do you fix that?

Everyone keeps saying the kids have to step up. When is Jay going to actually do it? I've got 55 million reasons to stay on his but. Enough of the potential crap.

We are Defending Division Champs who got handily tossed in the first round of the playoffs, by a better team. Our veteran leader is on the DL, and could be done. Our pitching has yet to mature the way they should.

I want to see execution, fundamental baseball and a no fear attitude. I haven't seen it yet.

The DARK
04-26-2011, 01:04 PM
Feast or famine is correct. Leading the league in offense last year was an aberration. This team relies WAY TOO MUCH on the long ball, and until that is rectified (situational hitting orders need to come from the top), they have no chance against the top pitchers.

It does seem like they do a lot better when they focus on OBP and baserunning rather than trying to go yard. Votto was off to a slow start in terms of home runs, but his steals and constant on-base presence has paid off. Ditto for Phillips.

brm7675
04-26-2011, 01:13 PM
All I'm saying is that we can't beat the Cardinals, and we can't win a game that's on National TV. Tell me the last time we've had success on either front. Not in this century. You will never win a WS if you can't beat your rival and/or win during Primetime.

Rolen is out and may be mostly unreliable the rest of the year. How do you fix that?

Everyone keeps saying the kids have to step up. When is Jay going to actually do it? I've got 55 million reasons to stay on his but. Enough of the potential crap.

We are Defending Division Champs who got handily tossed in the first round of the playoffs, by a better team. Our veteran leader is on the DL, and could be done. Our pitching has yet to mature the way they should.

I want to see execution, fundamental baseball and a no fear attitude. I haven't seen it yet.

Wow where to start? how we "perform" on national TV means nothing. I mean really. We didn't beat the Cards last season, so what is the big deal? You do know how young Bruce is right? you are not watching this team very closely and I believe don't grasp that teams just don't get dominate overnight.

Kingspoint
04-26-2011, 02:01 PM
I feel like I want to type, "It's April" to nearly every thread.

redsfanmia
04-26-2011, 04:12 PM
I feel like I want to type, "It's April" to nearly every thread.

The offense was feast or famine last year as well.

bigredmechanism
04-26-2011, 05:04 PM
The offense was feast or famine last year as well.

Mostly feast, though.

redsfanmia
04-26-2011, 05:27 PM
Mostly feast, though.

Alot of famine as well, they got shut out alot and when they are not hitting bombs they struggle to score runs.

Red in Atl
04-27-2011, 02:25 PM
Wow where to start? how we "perform" on national TV means nothing. I mean really. We didn't beat the Cards last season, so what is the big deal? You do know how young Bruce is right? you are not watching this team very closely and I believe don't grasp that teams just don't get dominate overnight.

How we perform on national TV means nothing? Well I guess you have no interest in the playoff's, attracting future talent and making the kind of money a small market team needs to stay competitive.

The big deal on not beating the Cardinals is that it makes it look we won by default, which it turn leaves the division as the Cardinals' to lose.

Bruce is 24, but once again, this is his forth year in the league as a starter, and he has a $55 million dollar contract. But go ahead and baby him and make excuses.

Who's asking to be dominate overnight? We don't have the team to be dominate at anything. I'm asking them to play as if they know what game they are playing when they play the Cardinals or on National TV. Instead they play like they are scared, they make fundamental mistakes and obiviously they lose more often than not.

Sounds like you are the one not watching.

brm7675
04-27-2011, 03:32 PM
How we perform on national TV means nothing? Well I guess you have no interest in the playoff's, attracting future talent and making the kind of money a small market team needs to stay competitive.

The big deal on not beating the Cardinals is that it makes it look we won by default, which it turn leaves the division as the Cardinals' to lose.

Bruce is 24, but once again, this is his forth year in the league as a starter, and he has a $55 million dollar contract. But go ahead and baby him and make excuses.

Who's asking to be dominate overnight? We don't have the team to be dominate at anything. I'm asking them to play as if they know what game they are playing when they play the Cardinals or on National TV. Instead they play like they are scared, they make fundamental mistakes and obiviously they lose more often than not.

Sounds like you are the one not watching.

Playing on national TV doesn't mean anything. It's just another game. Trust me, I live in Indy and we have the Colts and how many "prime time" games have they played in and yet only 1 SB title. We won the division because we won more games then the cards did, actually they won more often then they lost last night. As for Bruce, please provide me the stats that Votto posted when he was 24 years old in the show...

signalhome
04-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Playing on national TV doesn't mean anything. It's just another game. Trust me, I live in Indy and we have the Colts and how many "prime time" games have they played in and yet only 1 SB title. We won the division because we won more games then the cards did, actually they won more often then they lost last night. As for Bruce, please provide me the stats that Votto posted when he was 24 years old in the show...

Fine, here's Votto at age 24: .294/.381/.478/.859, .380 wOBA.

Wait a minute, that's AAA. Never mind.

Disclaimer: Votto did post a .387 wOBA for the Reds that year, but he only played 24 games at the big league level, so I don't think that's an acceptable sample size; remember, Bruce's first 24 games or so for the Reds were pretty amazing too. I'm also not saying I think Bruce will ever be as good as Votto, I just think we should exercise more patience and stop throwing him under the bus.

Red in Atl
04-30-2011, 03:31 PM
Playing on national TV doesn't mean anything. It's just another game. Trust me, I live in Indy and we have the Colts and how many "prime time" games have they played in and yet only 1 SB title. We won the division because we won more games then the cards did, actually they won more often then they lost last night. As for Bruce, please provide me the stats that Votto posted when he was 24 years old in the show...

"Playing on National TV doesn't mean anything." :laugh:

You are right. Who cares about winning in the playoffs or the World Series when you can win on Tuesday night on Fox Sports South.

Votto's stat's at 24, though I'm sure you can look this up yourself.

2008 CIN 151 Games 526 AB's 69 R 156 H 32 D 3 T 24 HR 84 RBI .297 Avg .368 OBP .506 SLG .874 OPS

That's Joey's line as a rookie. Jay's a 4 year player and couldn't carry Joey's jock. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Jay Bruce. I just expect him to get himself together and earn that contract. Maybe that's the whole point. He doesn't have what it takes upstairs. Alas, comparing Joey to Jay is pointless. Two different people, kind of hitters, ages, upbringing, etc.

I do love that when you have no point, you just compare apples to oranges. I now see how you operate.

Vottomatic
05-01-2011, 08:34 AM
Also remember that at Bruce's age (24) Votto was in AAA posting an .859 OPS -- Bruce posted an OPS of .846 last year at the MLB level.

That being said, it's easy to get frustrated with Bruce. He has the talent to be one of the best players in baseball, but he always seems to be pressing at the plate and not just letting the game come to him, as much as I hate to use that phrase.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9892&position=OF#platediscipline

Take a look at his plate discipline numbers. His O-Swing% is very troubling. If he would simply calm down and get that number back down to around 29% (what it was last year, which I believe is the league average, though I could be wrong on that), I think you would see his numbers skyrocket. It also doesn't help that his F-Strike% has jumped from 54.6% to 63.1%, but again I think that is a result of swinging at bad first pitches. If he would simply stop chasing out of the zone, he could absolutely be the hitter we saw in August and September of last year.

Bruce will be 28 someday and people on here will be saying "he's only 28, wait 'til he's 30, then he'll be a monster!"

Difference between Bruce and Votto, is both made it the major leagues at different ages, but only one guy continues to get better and better. The other guy has been figured out and continues to do the same things and not make adjustments. Thus, the definition of insanity comes into play. Maybe Jay Bruce is insane? :laugh: