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Jefferson24
04-30-2011, 09:48 PM
He needs to be in he rotation and can only learn to to that in 3A. The Reds don't seem like they want to be competitive this year so use it as a learning experience.

dubc47834
04-30-2011, 10:40 PM
Knee jerk reaction of the night.

Tadasimha
04-30-2011, 11:10 PM
Knee jerk reaction of the night.

whole body spasm over-reaction

ruREaDy2
04-30-2011, 11:36 PM
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/gif/ppreflex.gif

Jefferson24
04-30-2011, 11:40 PM
Trust me it would be the best thing. You can turn your rose colored glasses into me any time you wish.

Jefferson24
04-30-2011, 11:43 PM
He is one hell of an expensive 7th or 8th inning specialist. He needs to start once he has command. A year in the pen is a wasted year. He needs to learn to start.

dubc47834
04-30-2011, 11:45 PM
Trust me it would be the best thing. You can turn your rose colored glasses into me any time you wish.

Trust you? Who are you ...baseball player developer? Why should we trust you. If you were to say it is your opinion I can respect that. Just don't say trust you then don't give us a good reason.

dubc47834
04-30-2011, 11:47 PM
He is one hell of an expensive 7th or 8th inning specialist. He needs to start once he has command. A year in the pen is a wasted year. He needs to learn to start.

He is not that expensive. He would be an even more expensive #5 guy walking 6 a night. :beerme:

dubc47834
04-30-2011, 11:49 PM
Experience is nor a wasted year.

Who Dey Time
04-30-2011, 11:51 PM
He is one hell of an expensive 7th or 8th inning specialist. He needs to start once he has command. A year in the pen is a wasted year. He needs to learn to start.

Pitching to Major League hitters is a wasted year? :confused:

Vottomatic
05-01-2011, 07:19 AM
I was in the camp that wanted to make him the Closer when Cordero is gone. But with Chapman's declining velocity issues pitching consecutive days, I'm leaning back to making him an eventual starter.

I'm fine sending him down and making him a starter. Then maybe we can use one of our other starters in trade to fill some other holes.

jwmann2
05-01-2011, 08:06 PM
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Trust me, Dusty knows what he is doing.

Vottomatic
05-01-2011, 08:43 PM
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Trust me, Dusty knows what he is doing.

No wonder they lost again.

Krawhitham
05-01-2011, 09:32 PM
He is one hell of an expensive 7th or 8th inning specialist. He needs to start once he has command. A year in the pen is a wasted year. He needs to learn to start.

He will be the closer next year or sooner if they can trade Coco


He knows how to start, that is all he did for Cuba. All he needs to do, is to be stretched back out if they want him as a starter

Krawhitham
05-01-2011, 09:35 PM
May 1st last season the were at .500 and 4 games back

nux fan
05-01-2011, 11:25 PM
faulty reasoning this year the cards have Freese and Berkman

gilpdawg
05-02-2011, 08:28 AM
faulty reasoning this year the cards have Freese and Berkman

Freese broke his hand yesterday.

lidspinner
05-02-2011, 09:35 AM
hear me out Reds fans....I am a conservative and I love that style of play....but I also hate the style of "copy cat" baseball that is played by the Reds these last years under Bakers regime....Why does Chapman have to be a closer? starter? or middle man? Why cant he be a 3 day a week, 2-3 inning closer? Let him pitch the last 2 innings, 3 days a week......I hate the fact that the union has forced teams to pay a closer absurd amounts of money.....Chapman can throw 2 innings and start to get his stamina up for late in the season......Not sure about you guys but I would love to see him close out the 8th and 9th one day and have Masset,Coco close out the 8th and 9th on other days.....

I also dont get why we dont use Travis Wood as a long man when Bailey and Cueto comes back.....I hate using a reliever for half an inning when we have the arms and talent to use them longer and get more out of them.

I know most will disagree with this thought, but please back your opinions up with some reasons why you hate the idea....

I always loved the way pitchers are used in the World Series.....they throw the best arms against the best hitters no matter the situation....

brm7675
05-02-2011, 01:04 PM
You have to ask yourself what is more valuable to a team. A starting pitcher or a middle reliever? I personaly thinks it's an easy answer and thus means Chapman should be in Louisville working on his ability to be a starting pitcher.

brm7675
05-02-2011, 01:05 PM
hear me out Reds fans....I am a conservative and I love that style of play....but I also hate the style of "copy cat" baseball that is played by the Reds these last years under Bakers regime....Why does Chapman have to be a closer? starter? or middle man? Why cant he be a 3 day a week, 2-3 inning closer? Let him pitch the last 2 innings, 3 days a week......I hate the fact that the union has forced teams to pay a closer absurd amounts of money.....Chapman can throw 2 innings and start to get his stamina up for late in the season......Not sure about you guys but I would love to see him close out the 8th and 9th one day and have Masset,Coco close out the 8th and 9th on other days.....

I also dont get why we dont use Travis Wood as a long man when Bailey and Cueto comes back.....I hate using a reliever for half an inning when we have the arms and talent to use them longer and get more out of them.

I know most will disagree with this thought, but please back your opinions up with some reasons why you hate the idea....

I always loved the way pitchers are used in the World Series.....they throw the best arms against the best hitters no matter the situation....

why would you waste Chapman like that? Also there is a HUGE difference in a "long man" and a starter. Wood is a starter and either needs to be in the Cincy rotation or down in Louisville starting, not in the bullpen throwing every so often.

CWRed
05-02-2011, 06:30 PM
Send Chapman down? This is in the running for worst post of the year. :eek:

brm7675
05-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Send Chapman down? This is in the running for worst post of the year. :eek:

Yes Chapman needs to be in Louisville working on his skills.

lidspinner
05-02-2011, 09:39 PM
why would you waste Chapman like that? Also there is a HUGE difference in a "long man" and a starter. Wood is a starter and either needs to be in the Cincy rotation or down in Louisville starting, not in the bullpen throwing every so often.


why do/did the Yankees waste the best reliever in the game for only 1 inning? sounds like a waste to me....who knows, maybe he would be just as effective pitching 2 innings/3 days a week....we dont know cause noone has tried...for some reason we all think the closer has to pitch the 9th inning and 9th inning only.....even if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th....

I am not disagreeing with you BRM, just saying that its not a waste unless we know it wont work....Id rather have him for 2 innings with a better chance at facing the meat of the lineup as opposed to just 1 inning or a spot against a lefty...just saying

brm7675
05-03-2011, 11:18 AM
why do/did the Yankees waste the best reliever in the game for only 1 inning? sounds like a waste to me....who knows, maybe he would be just as effective pitching 2 innings/3 days a week....we dont know cause noone has tried...for some reason we all think the closer has to pitch the 9th inning and 9th inning only.....even if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th....

I am not disagreeing with you BRM, just saying that its not a waste unless we know it wont work....Id rather have him for 2 innings with a better chance at facing the meat of the lineup as opposed to just 1 inning or a spot against a lefty...just saying

i would rather have Chapman pitching 6-7 or even 8 inings over anything and he can with some learning and building up of arm strenght. That needs to occur in Louisville.

BEETTLEBUG
05-03-2011, 12:11 PM
Do that and bring up Willis in his place.

brm7675
05-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Do that and bring up Willis in his place.

Not sure how Willis would do out of the Pen, but i would sure give it a try..

dubc47834
05-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Not sure how Willis would do out of the Pen, but i would sure give it a try..

You want to send down Chapman, but call up Willis. Willis has proven he can't pitch anymore. Look at his stats over the last few years. He is tearing up AAA hitters so what. So does Bailey and you see where that has got him.:beerme:

brm7675
05-03-2011, 05:08 PM
You want to send down Chapman, but call up Willis. Willis has proven he can't pitch anymore. Look at his stats over the last few years. He is tearing up AAA hitters so what. So does Bailey and you see where that has got him.:beerme:

I want chapman sent down to learn, I really don't care whom they call up...

smixsell
05-03-2011, 05:26 PM
Send Chapman down? This is in the running for worst post of the year. :eek:

Spot on. It's a moronic comment.

If healthy we can make a run at the WORLD championship (there will be a trade deadline acquistion --LF or 3B--to help IMO) and Chapman in the setup/second closer role is a key to our success. If healthy we have a surplus of starters this season, so Chapman can currently help us more in the pen.

If injuries force him into the starting rotation then he can step right in, he already knows how to start.

The dumbest thing to do with him is send him to the minors:thumbdown:

Applying the same logic we should send Votto down to learn how to play left field next year, so we can put Alonso at first. :)

brm7675
05-03-2011, 05:43 PM
Spot on. It's a moronic comment.

If healthy we can make a run at the WORLD championship (there will be a trade deadline acquistion --LF or 3B--to help IMO) and Chapman in the setup/second closer role is a key to our success. If healthy we have a surplus of starters this season, so Chapman can currently help us more in the pen.

If injuries force him into the starting rotation then he can step right in, he already knows how to start.

The dumbest thing to do with him is send him to the minors:thumbdown:

Applying the same logic we should send Votto down to learn how to play left field next year, so we can put Alonso at first. :)

A) He is no where near ready to start.
B) Our bullpen has plenty of arms to cover
C) Your comparison is so funny...

Sending Chapman down now would allow him a chance to learn and become a pitcher, where right now he is nothing more then a side show thrower. Randy Johnson was very similar early in his career and took time in the minors to become a pitcher and HOF pitcher, the same should be done with Chapman. Middle relievers are a dime a dozen, great starting pitching isn't.

mu4103
05-03-2011, 06:30 PM
Send Chapman down? This is in the running for worst post of the year. :eek:

I agree with the poster. If Chapman developed into a premier starting pitcher it would do so much for the Reds. He certainly has the talent. Closers are a dime a dozen. Even the ones that seem great, often fall off (Broxton, Lidge ...). Many 7th inning pitchers turn into great closers and their are a ton of them out there.

On the other hand, a Felix Hernandez, Josh Johnson, Roy Halladay caliber true ace is tough to come by. I think they are an absolute neccesity to be successful in the post-season. Right now, I do not see that the Reds have that player in the minors or in the majors. Who on their team has ever had a sub 3.50 ERA (Arroyo, Dontrelle?)? There is not an ace on this team-some potential, but I don't see anyone with the kind of stuff Chapman has.

At the beginning of the pre-season, many people were calling on Chapman to be a starter. Brandon Morrow had outstanding stuff and was successful as a closer before they decided to make him into a starter. Last year he proved he can be a successful starter as well. I like the idea.

markymark69
05-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Yes Chapman needs to be in Louisville working on his skills.

Do you want him in Louisville "learning" how to be a starter or do you want him as a closer like the other thread you started? Just curious.

CWRed
05-03-2011, 06:43 PM
I stand by my comment as worst post of the year. If he's to become a starter, that will be done with off-season conditioning and spring training. You are advocating sending down our most dominating reliever in the middle of a potential pennant race. How absolutely dumb would that be? Extremely. :bang:

Roush's socks
05-04-2011, 01:32 AM
Many great pitchers started out as relievers and then moved to starting. I would like to see him used as a 2 inning reliever maybe sometimes 3, but only being used when he has proper warm up time. That way you are condtioning him to be a starter and building up his inning count. I know Dusty doesn't handle his bullpen that way, but it makes sense to me.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 11:05 AM
I stand by my comment as worst post of the year. If he's to become a starter, that will be done with off-season conditioning and spring training. You are advocating sending down our most dominating reliever in the middle of a potential pennant race. How absolutely dumb would that be? Extremely. :bang:

A) You can't "become" a starting pitching via just an offseason and ST, CAN'T happen

B) Exactly HOW is he the most dominating reliever? Because he can throw 100+ fastball? So what.

C) Which is more valueable to a team an ACE starter or a middle innings reliever?

markymark69
05-04-2011, 02:30 PM
A) You can't "become" a starting pitching via just an offseason and ST, CAN'T happen

B) Exactly HOW is he the most dominating reliever? Because he can throw 100+ fastball? So what.

C) Which is more valueable to a team an ACE starter or a middle innings reliever?

Correct me if I'm wrong - but starting is not totally foreign to him - he's done it in Cuba - it wouldn't take as long as some are making it out to be.

He is pretty dominating - 12 2/3 innings, 15 K's, 1.42 ERA and only five hits given up. He does have 11 walks - but the stats are pretty impressive.

Chapman doesn't pitch in the middle innings -7-8 innings are not the middle innings. To answer your question - it really depends on who you ask - an ACE is very important - but he only pitches every five days. A hammer at the back end of your bullpen isn't exactly a bad thing - ask the 1990 Reds. 35 starts or 70 relief appearances. 17-20 wins or 40-45 saves - both carry alot of weight.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 02:39 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong - but starting is not totally foreign to him - he's done it in Cuba - it wouldn't take as long as some are making it out to be.

He is pretty dominating - 12 2/3 innings, 15 K's, 1.42 ERA and only five hits given up. He does have 11 walks - but the stats are pretty impressive.

Chapman doesn't pitch in the middle innings -7-8 innings are not the middle innings. To answer your question - it really depends on who you ask - an ACE is very important - but he only pitches every five days. A hammer at the back end of your bullpen isn't exactly a bad thing - ask the 1990 Reds. 35 starts or 70 relief appearances. 17-20 wins or 40-45 saves - both carry alot of weight.

He pitched for the Cuban team, so his developement wasn't what is need to be a major league starter. His ability to go deep into games isn't there and he only has 2 pitches. Ask any team which they would rather have...Roy Halliday or Co-Co....both great at what they do, but who is more important?

markymark69
05-04-2011, 03:16 PM
He pitched for the Cuban team, so his developement wasn't what is need to be a major league starter. His ability to go deep into games isn't there and he only has 2 pitches. Ask any team which they would rather have...Roy Halliday or Co-Co....both great at what they do, but who is more important?

Agree - but it still not going to be some major undertaking to make him a starter. I'm not sure the Reds even want him to do that - closer perhaps.

Mario Soto had only two pitches and he did alright as a starter.

Again, to answer your last question - I think you would get a varied response. The answer is not 100 percent either way on the ACE/closer issue. If you want to make it Halladay versus Cordero - than Halladay wins that battle - but that doesn't mean every ace trumps every closer.

I still would like you to answer the question - would you make him starter and send him to Louisville or trade Cordero and make him the closer as you proposed in a recent thread.

It's also interestering how you jump on the Paul Janish/Chris Heisey bandwagon and say Dusty hates them because he doesn't play them - and it costs the Reds games playing the vets over the young guy with talent - but yet you do not defend Chapman - whom they are handling properly in easing him into the majors while getting a return on their 30-million dollar investment.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Agree - but it still not going to be some major undertaking to make him a starter. I'm not sure the Reds even want him to do that - closer perhaps.

Mario Soto had only two pitches and he did alright as a starter.

Again, to answer your last question - I think you would get a varied response. The answer is not 100 percent either way on the ACE/closer issue. If you want to make it Halladay versus Cordero - than Halladay wins that battle - but that doesn't mean every ace trumps every closer.

I still would like you to answer the question - would you make him starter and send him to Louisville or trade Cordero and make him the closer as you proposed in a recent thread.

It's also interestering how you jump on the Paul Janish/Chris Heisey bandwagon and say Dusty hates them because he doesn't play them - and it costs the Reds games playing the vets over the young guy with talent - but yet you do not defend Chapman - whom they are handling properly in easing him into the majors while getting a return on their 30-million dollar investment.

Closers are a dime a dozen, hell right now put Bray in as your closer or Logan, it's just 1 inning and 3 outs. Chapman has much more upside as a starter over a closer. Finding a closer is easy, finding an ace is extremely tough.

Chapman is a piece of clay right now. He has had very and I mean very limited training while in Cuba. He has incredible talent that needs time to grow, mature and learn. You 'could' be looking at the next Randy Johnson, but just like Randy, he needs time to develope. Randy didn't develop in the bullpen of the M's, he developed in teh minor leagues of the Expos system. He was allowed to learn how to go from a thrower to a pitcher and you know what it worked out pretty dam well. He pitched for how many seasons as a Starter and a dam good one? Leaving Chapman out in the pen is a waste of money, waste of talent and shows the stupidity of this organization to look long term over very short term gains.

markymark69
05-04-2011, 04:00 PM
Closers are a dime a dozen, hell right now put Bray in as your closer or Logan, it's just 1 inning and 3 outs. Chapman has much more upside as a starter over a closer. Finding a closer is easy, finding an ace is extremely tough.

Chapman is a piece of clay right now. He has had very and I mean very limited training while in Cuba. He has incredible talent that needs time to grow, mature and learn. You 'could' be looking at the next Randy Johnson, but just like Randy, he needs time to develope. Randy didn't develop in the bullpen of the M's, he developed in teh minor leagues of the Expos system. He was allowed to learn how to go from a thrower to a pitcher and you know what it worked out pretty dam well. He pitched for how many seasons as a Starter and a dam good one? Leaving Chapman out in the pen is a waste of money, waste of talent and shows the stupidity of this organization to look long term over very short term gains.

Pitching the ninth inning is entirely different - it's easy to say put Bray or Ondrusek in there - it's another thing for them to perform. How did that work out for Todd Coffey? Do you really think Nick Masset would do well in that role right now? Closers are not a dime a dozen.

The Reds are not the only organization that has ever done this - the Dodgers used to do it a bunch.

I love how when you get caught you just shift to something else.

Also, I did not see anywhere that Johnny Cueto was at Dayton or going to Dayton. I do see he has stats at Louisville and he is still on the Bats roster - so I will say that you are wrong on that point.

Also, Randy Johnson did learn to pitch as a starter in the major leagues - how do you think he got to be that good - he honed his craft at the major league level. So did Tom Glavine and a number of others.

They have a plan with Chapman - and I trust their judgment a whole lot more than I do yours.

smixsell
05-04-2011, 04:12 PM
Easily the dumbest post of the year.

smixsell
05-04-2011, 04:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong - but starting is not totally foreign to him - he's done it in Cuba - it wouldn't take as long as some are making it out to be.

He is pretty dominating - 12 2/3 innings, 15 K's, 1.42 ERA and only five hits given up. He does have 11 walks - but the stats are pretty impressive.

Chapman doesn't pitch in the middle innings -7-8 innings are not the middle innings. To answer your question - it really depends on who you ask - an ACE is very important - but he only pitches every five days. A hammer at the back end of your bullpen isn't exactly a bad thing - ask the 1990 Reds. 35 starts or 70 relief appearances. 17-20 wins or 40-45 saves - both carry alot of weight.


Good post.

smixsell
05-04-2011, 04:22 PM
A) He is no where near ready to start.
B) Our bullpen has plenty of arms to cover
C) Your comparison is so funny...

Sending Chapman down now would allow him a chance to learn and become a pitcher, where right now he is nothing more then a side show thrower. Randy Johnson was very similar early in his career and took time in the minors to become a pitcher and HOF pitcher, the same should be done with Chapman. Middle relievers are a dime a dozen, great starting pitching isn't.


A) Really? and you know this how? By his bad stuff (its excellent), his poor control (its been fantastic in the clutch), his past visible failures as a starter (there haven't been any)

B) Really? I dont know what bullpen your watching. Masset and Smith are getting shelled regularly

C) The truth hurts doesn't it. The comparison is meant to show the idiocy of sending down to the minors a player who is a PRIME ASSET RIGHT NOW in order to make him something different for the future. It might make sense if we were not championship contenders, but WE ARE. So I'm thankful you're not in charge and making moronic moves like the one you suggested.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 05:02 PM
A) Really? and you know this how? By his bad stuff (its excellent), his poor control (its been fantastic in the clutch), his past visible failures as a starter (there haven't been any)

B) Really? I dont know what bullpen your watching. Masset and Smith are getting shelled regularly

C) The truth hurts doesn't it. The comparison is meant to show the idiocy of sending down to the minors a player who is a PRIME ASSET RIGHT NOW in order to make him something different for the future. It might make sense if we were not championship contenders, but WE ARE. So I'm thankful you're not in charge and making moronic moves like the one you suggested.

A) His stuff when on is unhittable, but as we have seen he can also be wild and cost us games. Only with teaching and developement will that problem go away. We also know he can't go day and day out over a 5-6-7 game stretch, which is KEY for apitcher working out of the pen some times.

B) Masset started slow last year, Bray is pitching well as is Logan. you now add Lecure and Leake and we are covered.

C) Chapman is a prime asset as a starter not a middle innings guy. Anyone who understands the game and the importance of having great starting pitching (See the Giants) will understand that the Reds will be more successful long term with chapman as a starter over a middle innings guy. Again you really need to learn and understand "how" to value your pitching.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 05:06 PM
Pitching the ninth inning is entirely different - it's easy to say put Bray or Ondrusek in there - it's another thing for them to perform. How did that work out for Todd Coffey? Do you really think Nick Masset would do well in that role right now? Closers are not a dime a dozen.

The Reds are not the only organization that has ever done this - the Dodgers used to do it a bunch.

I love how when you get caught you just shift to something else.

Also, I did not see anywhere that Johnny Cueto was at Dayton or going to Dayton. I do see he has stats at Louisville and he is still on the Bats roster - so I will say that you are wrong on that point.

Also, Randy Johnson did learn to pitch as a starter in the major leagues - how do you think he got to be that good - he honed his craft at the major league level. So did Tom Glavine and a number of others.

They have a plan with Chapman - and I trust their judgment a whole lot more than I do yours.

How many closers have 30+ saves in a season? How many Starting pitchers have 20 wins in a season? How many different closers have led the league in pitching, how many have won the Cy Young?

Randy Johnson "honed" his craft in Indianapolis Indiana with the Indianapolis Indians. That is where he learned how to pitch, go ask him. Look at his progression as a pitcher and it changed while he was in the minors. Yes he continued to improve in the Show, but without the time, effort and learning that occured in AAA he would never had made it on the major league level.

As for Cueto, do the research, he was headed to Dayton to pitch this weekend because they are at home. I am sorry you didn't see that.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 05:09 PM
Pitching the ninth inning is entirely different -
.

Okay prove it. Do teams get more outs in the 9th inning? Are pitchers required to pitch differntly in the 9th inning? NO, people want to "believe" it is tougher, but it's not, it's just the same as the other 8 innings. It is like people thinking that Gomes is key to the team because of his hustle and determination....:laugh:

brm7675
05-04-2011, 05:14 PM
Also if Chapman is so valuable to the Pen, why didn't he pitch today in a close game?

CWRed
05-04-2011, 08:49 PM
I don't think anyone doubts Chapman is more valuable as a potential starter. Duh. You want to send him down now? Masset and Smith can't get anyone out and the starters can barely go 6 innings. So you want to send possibly the best reliever on the team to AAA from a team that has a chance to compete for the playoffs. Unquestionably dumb. And by the way he has 3 pitches. Fastball, changeup, and that nasty slider he has developed.

I'm sure he will be groomed after season's end for starting and if he's not then that's a huge problem. But it doesn't take that long. Same Lecure had about 4 weeks to go from bullpen guy to starter, and as many have posted, Chapman did it in Cuba and in the minors for a stretch last year. And with him only pitching probably 60-70 innings this year he might even get some starts in winter ball. You can see he's learning how to pitch better lately rather than just throwing 103 mph gas every pitch.

But sending him down would be as smart as sending Bruce or Stubbs down as many geniuses on these boards have posted ad nauseum for the past 2 years.

I do think the only thing you got right is that Cueto will be starting Sunday. Kudos.

P.S. Dusty is an idiot. :beerme:

CWRed
05-04-2011, 08:50 PM
Also if Chapman is so valuable to the Pen, why didn't he pitch today in a close game?

Didn't see this before....

2nd dumbest post ever. :laugh:

lidspinner
05-05-2011, 07:36 AM
Pitching the ninth inning is entirely different - it's easy to say put Bray or Ondrusek in there - it's another thing for them to perform. How did that work out for Todd Coffey? Do you really think Nick Masset would do well in that role right now? Closers are not a dime a dozen.

The Reds are not the only organization that has ever done this - the Dodgers used to do it a bunch.

I love how when you get caught you just shift to something else.

Also, I did not see anywhere that Johnny Cueto was at Dayton or going to Dayton. I do see he has stats at Louisville and he is still on the Bats roster - so I will say that you are wrong on that point.

Also, Randy Johnson did learn to pitch as a starter in the major leagues - how do you think he got to be that good - he honed his craft at the major league level. So did Tom Glavine and a number of others.

They have a plan with Chapman - and I trust their judgment a whole lot more than I do yours.


I will have to disagree in a polite way....pitching the 9th inning is no different than pitching the 1st....these are professionals playing a game that they get played to play....they practice and they prepare for situations like this....I understand that pressure is greater in the 9th than in the 1st, and maybe that is what you are referring to....but the 9th is just another inning to professionals.........The closer role is just another role created by the players and the union to get more money for the players....its that simple. I am not saying you dont need a closer, but I am saying you dont need a guy that just pitches the 9th inning cause he is the closer....if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th inning, then I want my "closer" to pitch the 8th....

markymark69
05-05-2011, 10:02 AM
Okay prove it. Do teams get more outs in the 9th inning? Are pitchers required to pitch differntly in the 9th inning? NO, people want to "believe" it is tougher, but it's not, it's just the same as the other 8 innings. It is like people thinking that Gomes is key to the team because of his hustle and determination....:laugh:

I think I did when I mentioned Todd Coffey's name. When he first came up with the Reds he had some success in the 7th and 8th innings - many people clamored for him to be the closer - the Reds gave it a shot and he was an abject failure at it. You indicated that anyone can do it - Todd Coffey is anyone and he couldn't. There is your proof.

BTW - I have never said anything about Jonny Gomes being the key to this team.

markymark69
05-05-2011, 10:10 AM
I will have to disagree in a polite way....pitching the 9th inning is no different than pitching the 1st....these are professionals playing a game that they get played to play....they practice and they prepare for situations like this....I understand that pressure is greater in the 9th than in the 1st, and maybe that is what you are referring to....but the 9th is just another inning to professionals.........The closer role is just another role created by the players and the union to get more money for the players....its that simple. I am not saying you dont need a closer, but I am saying you dont need a guy that just pitches the 9th inning cause he is the closer....if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th inning, then I want my "closer" to pitch the 8th....

The pressure makes it different. Not everyone can handle that - just like some players can't handle batting clean-up or lead-off.

I agree with the last part of your statement - my point was not everyone can the pitch in the ninth inning pressure situation - perhaps not even Chapman and I do not advocate him being the closer - but I think the Reds could possibly consider him in that role.

My initial argument was he does not need to be sent to the minors to learn how to become a starting pitcher - and that a guy that factors into 70 games - either by getting holds (protecting the lead) or getting saves (closing out the game) can be as important as an ace who will pitch a max of 35 games - of which he will most likely not have more than a handful of complete games.

To me both roles are important to the success of a baseball team.

Girevik
05-05-2011, 11:02 AM
I will have to disagree in a polite way....pitching the 9th inning is no different than pitching the 1st....these are professionals playing a game that they get played to play....they practice and they prepare for situations like this....I understand that pressure is greater in the 9th than in the 1st, and maybe that is what you are referring to....but the 9th is just another inning to professionals.........

Pure logic would indicate this would be true, but history shows it's simply not the case. Some guys who dominate in innings 6-8 simply cannot close the door in the 9th. I've heard guys who know a whole lot more about baseball than me, like Marty, state the same.

markymark69
05-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Pure logic would indicate this is the case, but history shows it's simply not the case. Some guys who dominate in innings 6-8 simply cannot close the door in the 9th. I've heard guys who know a whole lot more about baseball than me, like Marty, state the same.

Thanks - that's my point exactly.

brm7675
05-05-2011, 11:13 AM
I think I did when I mentioned Todd Coffey's name. When he first came up with the Reds he had some success in the 7th and 8th innings - many people clamored for him to be the closer - the Reds gave it a shot and he was an abject failure at it. You indicated that anyone can do it - Todd Coffey is anyone and he couldn't. There is your proof.

BTW - I have never said anything about Jonny Gomes being the key to this team.

Coffey couldn't close because Coffey was a bad pitcher. He was bad no matter what inning he pitched. Also if the "closer" role is so important, can you explain how baseball played without out it for what like 70-80 decades?

Girevik
05-05-2011, 11:32 AM
Also if the "closer" role is so important, can you explain how baseball played without out it for what like 70-80 decades?

Yeah, 800 years is a long time not to have a closer. Wonder how it survived so long.

The closer role was added over time, people began making a big deal out of saves, the pressure mounted, and some guys can't handle it. Seems like a logical progression to me.

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of being able to handle the pressure of THIS game, as much as it is being able to forget about yesterday's blown save and bounce back today. I think a lot of guys who have problems handling it don't want to repeat past mistakes, start pressing, and end up going into a tailspin.

markymark69
05-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Coffey couldn't close because Coffey was a bad pitcher. He was bad no matter what inning he pitched. Also if the "closer" role is so important, can you explain how baseball played without out it for what like 70-80 decades?

You said closers are dime a dozen - meaning that anyone can do it. My point is - it not as easy as just saying so-and-so can do it. People said that about Coffey - it did not work - so your point is not true.

To your second point - They didn't make out of pitch counts for 70-80 decades either - but that's become a pretty important aspect of the game. The bullpen in itself did not used to be that big of a factor (pitchers finished what they started) but now it is. Same way with situational lefties and the DH. All of those positions have a big impact on the way the game is played today.

brm7675
05-05-2011, 02:57 PM
TA-DA more proof today that Chapman is NOT bullpen material and to continue to use him that is wasting money and damaging him for the future. But bet ole Dusty will have some stupid excuse for him today....

bounty37h
05-05-2011, 03:23 PM
Coffey couldn't close because Coffey was a bad pitcher. He was bad no matter what inning he pitched. Also if the "closer" role is so important, can you explain how baseball played without out it for what like 70-80 decades?

Holy cricky batman, baseball is 700-800 years old!?!?!?!

brm7675
05-05-2011, 03:44 PM
Holy cricky batman, baseball is 700-800 years old!?!?!?!

Yes Batman it is...oldest sport going...:)