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View Full Version : Ehhh... This Team Needs an ACE Starter. Yesterday.



Hondo
05-03-2011, 09:24 PM
I don't really understand Bob C & Walt. They have a Great offense ready to roll and are basically one player away from really making this team a Power Ranking contender...

They make no moves and continue to want to wait for Cueto & Bailey to heal up...

Felix Hernadez and Josh Joshnson are the Next Guys on the TRADE BLOCK considering their Salaries.

This team could throw the kitchen sink for either one and let this team Dominate for the Next 3 years while Votto is under contract.

If this Team WINS - Better chance Votto stays LTC...

Bob, Walt - Make a move.

will5979
05-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Amen, I would mortgage the future for 3 years of winning baseball and possibly a ring.

BluegrassRedleg
05-03-2011, 11:07 PM
Love what the new management has done in the last 2-3 years, but the glaring absence of a true No. 1 starter and a legit leadoff man feel like they're going to haunt the Reds this season.

BluegrassRedleg
05-03-2011, 11:10 PM
I don't really understand Bob C & Walt. They have a Great offense ready to roll.

I don't think you can have a great offense with no leadoff man and no protection for Votto. God bless Rolen and what he brought to the club, but his body just won't allow him to be productive for 162+ games. Gomes is all-effort, all the time, but an extremely flawed hitter.

The Reds feasted on bad pitching (to their credit) last season, but the playoffs showed us a more accurate picture of the offense.

We haven't had an actual leadoff man since Bip Roberts.

markymark69
05-03-2011, 11:11 PM
I'd be all for it - but I think the cost would be astronomical in terms of players for Hernandez and/or Johnson. I don't believe it's a cost that the organization is prepared to make.

I know it's not really early anymore, but there are 133 games after tonight and it's not like the Reds are buried deep in the standings. I believe Walt will wait to see what Bailey and Cueto can bring to the table before he considers anything of what it is being proposed here.

Also, I must ask why at this point would the Marlins trade Johnson? - they have a chance to be in the hunt for the wild card or better with that pitching staff they have.

Reds
05-03-2011, 11:33 PM
Reds best shot at getting an ace is the same way we got an MVP, through our system.

lonewolf371
05-04-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't think you can have a great offense with no leadoff man and no protection for Votto. God bless Rolen and what he brought to the club, but his body just won't allow him to be productive for 162+ games. Gomes is all-effort, all the time, but an extremely flawed hitter.

The Reds feasted on bad pitching (to their credit) last season, but the playoffs showed us a more accurate picture of the offense.

We haven't had an actual leadoff man since Bip Roberts.
Let's be honest; the real problem so far this year is your second point: no protection for Votto. The lead-off problem is relatively minor. Last year Rolen had something of a resurgence in the first half and the Reds managed to keep it alive in the second half. This year, Rolen is gone and there is simply no one on the roster right now that poses a credible threat to knock Votto in every time he gets on base. Bruce will be that guy once he stops freaking out about coming to the plate, provided Dusty is willing to put him there. Otherwise, it could be a long season in this respect.

Maker_84
05-04-2011, 01:54 AM
The front office is really paying for it now by sitting and doing nothing all offseason and everyone else got better.

webbbj
05-04-2011, 02:06 AM
The front office is really paying for it now by sitting and doing nothing all offseason and everyone else got better.

Can you explain?

Roush's socks
05-04-2011, 02:19 AM
So far this year everything that could go wrong for the Reds starting pitching has gone wrong. Cueto and Bailey injured. Arroyo has mono and is shaky. Volquez hasn't found his control. Wood and Leake have regressed and neither one looks as good as last year. Lecure and Maloney have been ineffective.

I can't blame the Reds FO for not acquiring an ace. They thought that someone would step up to that level this year, probably one of Volquez, Cueto or Bailey. So far that hasn't happened but it is a long season. There is still a good chance that 3-4 guys out of the 8 options listed above can be effective pitchers this season. If the offense stays stellar and the bullpen is solid thhey can stay in contention even with shaky SP.

The DARK
05-04-2011, 06:44 AM
IMO, Josh Johnson really fits the profile if we're looking for a true ace and can pry him away from the Marlins (no easy task, but they're looking a bit hopeless in a division with the Braves and Phillies). About to become expensive, groundball pitcher (a necessity in our park), and with a financially limited team not expected to contend for quite some time. He'd be perfect for the next 2 years... we have the depth to trade away a few arms, and our farm system is strong, while theirs is virtually empty. It all depends on how much Walt sees fit to spend.

Vottomatic
05-04-2011, 07:15 AM
Let's be honest; the real problem so far this year is your second point: no protection for Votto. The lead-off problem is relatively minor. Last year Rolen had something of a resurgence in the first half and the Reds managed to keep it alive in the second half. This year, Rolen is gone and there is simply no one on the roster right now that poses a credible threat to knock Votto in every time he gets on base. Bruce will be that guy once he stops freaking out about coming to the plate, provided Dusty is willing to put him there. Otherwise, it could be a long season in this respect.

Bingo! My biggest complaint of the offseason.

Needs this offseason:
1. 4-hole hitter to protect Votto.
2. Legit leadoff hitter who doesn't K a ton (like Stubbs does)
3. #1 starter/Ace

Votto is getting pitched around. There's no one on base to knock in anyway because Stubbs and Bruce strikeout all the time. And the starting pitching is far from up to snuff. Lance said on his show that the Reds have a combined 5.12 starting pitching e.r.a., 15th in the NL.

Holes, holes, holes and plenty of prospects/major leaguers to trade and management is sitting on their butt. Very hard to take as a fan.

The DARK
05-04-2011, 07:47 AM
Bingo! My biggest complaint of the offseason.

Needs this offseason:
1. 4-hole hitter to protect Votto.
2. Legit leadoff hitter who doesn't K a ton (like Stubbs does)
3. #1 starter/Ace

Votto is getting pitched around. There's no one on base to knock in anyway because Stubbs and Bruce strikeout all the time. And the starting pitching is far from up to snuff. Lance said on his show that the Reds have a combined 5.12 starting pitching e.r.a., 15th in the NL.

Holes, holes, holes and plenty of prospects/major leaguers to trade and management is sitting on their butt. Very hard to take as a fan.

The problem here is that we're a small market team with little financial room to work with. While it's good that we have our best players locked up, we've also invested a ton of money into that sector, money that we'll have to keep up for many years.

1. Who's out there, and what position does he play? Our only potential improvements are at 3B and SS, where there's some major position scarcity, and LF, where there's no one on the market and plenty of in-house options. Our best bet here may be to just let Mesoraco get promoted from within at the end of the season.

2. Again, who are we looking for? Lewis is on his way back, so he'll get plenty of at bats. Sappelt, a natural leadoff hitter, is waiting in the wings. And Stubbs, while he does strikeout a lot, has hardly been a liability so far; his walk rate has been decent and he's racked up the steals.

3. My Josh Johnson idea was far-fetched, to be honest. No one is shopping a TOR right now, and if they were, we'd be going up against the Yankees and other major money movers, with equally appealing talent and farm systems, and the ability to offer a LTC to boot. Meanwhile, we get 2 of our most important starters back: Bailey still has an arm of gold, and Cueto is one of our most consistent horses.


Truth is, it may be best to do business for the long term here. Our team gels well, and we have both young major leaguers and our farm system on the rise. We're not nearly as bad as we've played so far.

will5979
05-04-2011, 07:55 AM
We're not nearly as bad as we've played so far.

:laugh::lol: Keep telling yourself that! I'm at the point where I'm looking at last year not being a fluke.

markymark69
05-04-2011, 09:23 AM
The front office is really paying for it now by sitting and doing nothing all offseason and everyone else got better.

I would hardly call spending $150 some million dollars on players (Bruce, Votto, Cueto, etc.) that none of us would like to see gone - is doing nothing.

lonewolf371
05-04-2011, 09:50 AM
Bingo! My biggest complaint of the offseason.

Needs this offseason:
1. 4-hole hitter to protect Votto.
2. Legit leadoff hitter who doesn't K a ton (like Stubbs does)
3. #1 starter/Ace

Votto is getting pitched around. There's no one on base to knock in anyway because Stubbs and Bruce strikeout all the time. And the starting pitching is far from up to snuff. Lance said on his show that the Reds have a combined 5.12 starting pitching e.r.a., 15th in the NL.

Holes, holes, holes and plenty of prospects/major leaguers to trade and management is sitting on their butt. Very hard to take as a fan.
Well the problem is that legit 4-hole hitters don't exactly grow on trees. I don't know of any guys with expiring contracts out there that we might be able to get on a rental, and even then the Reds would probably not be able to sign whoever they got long-term.

Most likely course of action is to hope Bruce gets going and that Dusty swaps him and Phillips.

Stubbs has been getting on base enough this year (.352). His strikeout rate is a little high right now, but not too much over where he'll end up. That's just the player he is; he can't make contact. When he ends the year with around 20 HR and 40 SB I think you'll be happy. I'd rather see him down at 7 myself, but there's no one on the team right now to push him down there, including Fred Lewis.

The most obscure thing to do would be to bring up Sappelt and try him at different places. He destroyed AAA pitching last year and he's butchering it this year, so I don't know how much more he could learn down there. He may be a June call-up.

The DARK
05-04-2011, 10:57 AM
:laugh::lol: Keep telling yourself that! I'm at the point where I'm looking at last year not being a fluke.

The pitching isn't, at least. There have been a ton of rough outings, but there's no way that the rotation in its entirety will continue it's 5.00+ ERA ways. Between the return of Cueto and Bailey, we're gonna get better there.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 11:59 AM
I don't really understand Bob C & Walt. They have a Great offense ready to roll and are basically one player away from really making this team a Power Ranking contender...

They make no moves and continue to want to wait for Cueto & Bailey to heal up...

Felix Hernadez and Josh Joshnson are the Next Guys on the TRADE BLOCK considering their Salaries.

This team could throw the kitchen sink for either one and let this team Dominate for the Next 3 years while Votto is under contract.

If this Team WINS - Better chance Votto stays LTC...

Bob, Walt - Make a move.

Why do you continue to beat a drum that won't happen. A) Neither of those guys are going to be traded and even if they were the Reds have no interest. B) We have pitching, what we lack is drive, desire and direction from our manager on putting the best roster out there each night.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 12:00 PM
The front office is really paying for it now by sitting and doing nothing all offseason and everyone else got better.

Outside of maybe the Brewers, how did the other teams in our division get better?

lonewolf371
05-04-2011, 01:05 PM
Outside of maybe the Brewers, how did the other teams in our division get better?
Albert Pujols put on a Lance Berkman suit and signed with the Cardinals.

Simon Rhymon
05-04-2011, 01:18 PM
Hernandez is due almost $58 mill betw 2012-14. Johnson is due $27.5 betw 2012-13. The Reds have no shot at Felix, Johnson's salary probably is too high plus Florida is at worst a wild card contender. Mid and small market teams need a good scouting department to develop talent over the course of years to continually feed the big league club.

Expecting the Reds to trade for a major talent with big money due already on his contract is a pipe dream. Lacking studs in the minors, they have to hope some other foolish team is willing to trade them somebody at AAA or early in his career who is ready to bust out.

Guys like Homer Bailey and Cueto have been their best hope to be an impact pitcher coming through the system, but I'm still waiting to see something other than run of the mill ability from Bailey. I'm puzzled why so many people think he is anything better than what he has shown in the past or the other mediocre talent on the staff. Cueto, I think has a chance to be a first line pitcher. I'm not sure if he can be an ace, but he appears to be their best shot at being a big game guy.

And all the talk about Dontrelle may be hoping against hope and not much more.

redhat
05-04-2011, 05:48 PM
What kind of ace starting pitching do you think is available this time of year? Hint: None is the correct answer.

Walt Jocketty is very good at making effective deadline deals, but even he can't find good starting pitching early in the season. For instance, in 2007 when Chris Carpenter went down after just one start, the best he could get were Mike Maroth, Randy Keisler and Todd Wellemeyer (who wasn't a starter, but was given the job). You can look up how miserable that trio was here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2007.shtml).

redhat
05-04-2011, 05:48 PM
Albert Pujols put on a Lance Berkman suit and signed with the Cardinals.
LOL

Hondo
05-04-2011, 06:40 PM
Can you explain?

Uh, I will explain it. They didn't do anything to improve the team. Even all the Sports media outlets (ESPN, Fox News, Sports Illistrated) even said the Reds stood pat...

The Reds... Stood... Pat...

Meaning they didn't Improve

1. Lead Off Hitter
2. Starter
3. Right Handed Power Hitter
4. Bull Pen Help

Hondo
05-04-2011, 06:43 PM
Why do you continue to beat a drum that won't happen. A) Neither of those guys are going to be traded and even if they were the Reds have no interest. B) We have pitching, what we lack is drive, desire and direction from our manager on putting the best roster out there each night.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

Hondo
05-04-2011, 06:44 PM
What kind of ace starting pitching do you think is available this time of year? Hint: None is the correct answer.

Walt Jocketty is very good at making effective deadline deals, but even he can't find good starting pitching early in the season. For instance, in 2007 when Chris Carpenter went down after just one start, the best he could get were Mike Maroth, Randy Keisler and Todd Wellemeyer (who wasn't a starter, but was given the job). You can look up how miserable that trio was here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2007.shtml).

Oh lets see Dan Haren was traded last year to the Angels. Thats a pretty good pitcher and they were probably discussing it well before it went down.

Hondo
05-04-2011, 06:46 PM
Hernandez is due almost $58 mill betw 2012-14. Johnson is due $27.5 betw 2012-13. The Reds have no shot at Felix, Johnson's salary probably is too high plus Florida is at worst a wild card contender. Mid and small market teams need a good scouting department to develop talent over the course of years to continually feed the big league club.

Expecting the Reds to trade for a major talent with big money due already on his contract is a pipe dream. Lacking studs in the minors, they have to hope some other foolish team is willing to trade them somebody at AAA or early in his career who is ready to bust out.

Guys like Homer Bailey and Cueto have been their best hope to be an impact pitcher coming through the system, but I'm still waiting to see something other than run of the mill ability from Bailey. I'm puzzled why so many people think he is anything better than what he has shown in the past or the other mediocre talent on the staff. Cueto, I think has a chance to be a first line pitcher. I'm not sure if he can be an ace, but he appears to be their best shot at being a big game guy.

And all the talk about Dontrelle may be hoping against hope and not much more.

Considering the Reds Closer at 12 Million is off the Books Next year and the Reds could decline the 11 Million option on Phillips... They have the Money...

Oh and if the Reds get deep in the Playoffs they get a ton of revenue from tickets and TV Playoff Revenue Money...

So take that into consideration.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 07:48 PM
Considering the Reds Closer at 12 Million is off the Books Next year and the Reds could decline the 11 Million option on Phillips... They have the Money...

Oh and if the Reds get deep in the Playoffs they get a ton of revenue from tickets and TV Playoff Revenue Money...

So take that into consideration.

A) They won't decline Phillips, in fact I am willing to bet they add years to his deal so there goes that money

B) Any "ton" of monies they get will go towards adding years to EV and JV's contracts.

brm7675
05-04-2011, 07:49 PM
You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

How is that? Because you refuse to accept the idea that the Reds believe in the talent they have in the pitching and IF and it's a HUGE IF, they make any deals during the season it would be for a bat, not a pitcher.

redhat
05-04-2011, 09:17 PM
Oh lets see Dan Haren was traded last year to the Angels. Thats a pretty good pitcher and they were probably discussing it well before it went down.
That trade happened a few days before the trade deadline. Nowhere close to this early in the season.

Hondo
05-05-2011, 05:34 PM
That trade happened a few days before the trade deadline. Nowhere close to this early in the season.

The point is the Pitcher got traded... and talks between Arizona & Los Angeles of Anaheim were probably talked about possibly before that trade happened.

brm7675
05-05-2011, 05:56 PM
The point is the Pitcher got traded... and talks between Arizona & Los Angeles of Anaheim were probably talked about possibly before that trade happened.

Our Ace went today...no need to make a trade...:thumbup:

Hondo
05-05-2011, 07:35 PM
Our Ace went today...no need to make a trade...:thumbup:

I hope Homer goes on to win 15 games but this team needs a serious ACE to win in the playoffs...

brm7675
05-05-2011, 07:43 PM
I hope Homer goes on to win 15 games but this team needs a serious ACE to win in the playoffs...

How is Homer not a serious ACE? Also how did that "serious" ACE for the Brewers do last night?

Hondo
05-05-2011, 07:47 PM
How is Homer not a serious ACE? Also how did that "serious" ACE for the Brewers do last night?

Greinke got hit hard in the 4th... I bet his ERA is still better than Homers at the end of the year.

brm7675
05-05-2011, 08:12 PM
Greinke got hit hard in the 4th... I bet his ERA is still better than Homers at the end of the year.

i doubt it, Grenike is a head case and could end up on another team before the year is out if the Brewers struggle or his 'issues' arise again.

bounty37h
05-06-2011, 11:41 AM
How is Homer not a serious ACE? Also how did that "serious" ACE for the Brewers do last night?

Didn't you just junk him in another post?