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View Full Version : It's time to make Chapman a starter



Blitz Dorsey
05-04-2011, 10:10 AM
He's too good to "waste" his talents as a set-up man out of the bullpen. He's definitely going to be a starter at some point in his Reds career -- likely next season at the latest -- but I think now is the time to pull the trigger.

I think every team we face is thrilled they only might have to face him for one inning instead of having to deal with him starting a game. Now, maybe the Reds brass doesn't think his arm is strong enough yet. OK, I could buy that, but we all agree it's going to happen sooner or later, right? He will be a starter at some point, correct? Or do some fans think he is the closer of the future? I want a talent like him pitching 180 innings per year. Not 60-70. The Reds are just not maximizing the production they could get out of him right now IMO.

HokieRed
05-04-2011, 10:28 AM
Agree 100%. This ought to be priority #1 for 2012. Chapman is the pitcher who may be able to significantly elevate this rotation. Maybe he won't be able to do it, but we should definitely be trying to determine that ASAP.

cumberlandreds
05-04-2011, 10:29 AM
When he has better and more consistant control I will vote for that. But until then he's better off right where he is.

Edskin
05-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Disagree... I think that's a panic move. Walt and Dusty are handling him well-- limiting his innings and letting him gradually break in. Chances are he'd have high pitch counts through the middle innings--- and that puts more stress on him physically and more pressure on Dusty to "protect" him versus trying to win a game.

I AM in favor of moving him past Masset into the 8th inning role and possibly getting a shot at closin if Coco falters. And I will be very open to him joining the rotation next year--- but not now in midseason.

CTA513
05-04-2011, 11:10 AM
He'll have to cut down on the walks or you'll just have another 5 inning or less pitcher.

cumberlandreds
05-04-2011, 11:15 AM
He'll have to cut down on the walks or you'll just have another 5 inning or less pitcher.

Exactly. He has 11 walks in 12 innings at the moment. That doesn't translate very well to be a starter.

Always Red
05-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Exactly. He has 11 walks in 12 innings at the moment. That doesn't translate very well to be a starter.

...and translates even worse into a late inning reliever.

I like him better as a starter if he continues to struggle with control, but think that ship has sailed for this year. I'd stretch him out next spring though.

cumberlandreds
05-04-2011, 01:28 PM
...and translates even worse into a late inning reliever.

I like him better as a starter if he continues to struggle with control, but think that ship has sailed for this year. I'd stretch him out next spring though.

Bottom line is that his control has to be better if he's going to have any type of long career in MLB. Pitchers with poor control don't normally last long.

Griffey012
05-04-2011, 07:20 PM
...and translates even worse into a late inning reliever.

I like him better as a starter if he continues to struggle with control, but think that ship has sailed for this year. I'd stretch him out next spring though.

Except it translates into even more walks as a starter. As a reliever he can just throw 100-102 down the middle and be fine. As a starter he is going to be throwing 96-100 and have to hit some spots or get toasted 2nd time through the order, especially if he can't get his slider in consistently for a strike.

Always Red
05-04-2011, 08:00 PM
Except it translates into even more walks as a starter. As a reliever he can just throw 100-102 down the middle and be fine. As a starter he is going to be throwing 96-100 and have to hit some spots or get toasted 2nd time through the order, especially if he can't get his slider in consistently for a strike.

Chapman will earn his money with his slider. 99-100 down the middle gets jacked by big leaguers, unless you can spot and keep them off balance.

Starting gives him more of a margin for error. Relieving will get him into trouble much faster if he can't hit the strike zone.

I think Chapman would be a lights out closer, if he can learn to throw strikes with consistency. I don't care of he starts or closes, I just want him to fulfill his great potential. :beerme:

reds44
05-04-2011, 08:22 PM
...and translates even worse into a late inning reliever.

I like him better as a starter if he continues to struggle with control, but think that ship has sailed for this year. I'd stretch him out next spring though.
Except that it hasn't.

westofyou
05-04-2011, 08:25 PM
I'm thinking it's time to have a beer.

steig
05-04-2011, 09:01 PM
Why send him down to stretch him out. While they will never do this the team could start him every 5th or 6th day and start to stretch him out then have Leake as the planned relief man or even LeCure as the planned relief/back up starter for that game.

Yes, it wastes a spot on the roster for pitching but it helps to stretch him out against big league hitters that will hit his fastball if it is not located and allows him to work with Ramon and Price.

nate
05-04-2011, 09:13 PM
I'm thinking it's time to have a beer.

Just one?

westofyou
05-04-2011, 10:48 PM
Just one?
High Five ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_five)

Blitz Dorsey
05-05-2011, 02:30 PM
I'm thinking it's time to have a beer.

That's never a bad thought.

Always Red
05-05-2011, 03:31 PM
I'm thinking it's time to have a beer.

14 pitches today, 5 of them strikes.

I'm looking for something stronger than beer...:eek:

Chip R
05-05-2011, 03:34 PM
Any thoughts about sending him down to AAA if this uberwild streak continues?

LincolnparkRed
05-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Any thoughts about sending him down to AAA if this uberwild streak continues?

I think you have to really consider it. He may still be hurting from SD. I haven't seen him pitch since but he hasn't been consistent since.

That or DL him

_Sir_Charles_
05-05-2011, 04:24 PM
All I'll say is that I've never been a fan of him in the bullpen.

reds44
05-05-2011, 07:28 PM
Any thoughts about sending him down to AAA if this uberwild streak continues?
This is a joke right?

Chip R
05-05-2011, 08:23 PM
This is a joke right?

Not at all. Is he immune to demotion?

I don't care if he throws 120 mph, if he can't throw strikes, he's no good to anyone. I also get the feeling he's in love with his own readings on the radar gun.

kaldaniels
05-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Any thoughts about sending him down to AAA if this uberwild streak continues?

At this point in time, not from me.

mth123
05-05-2011, 08:52 PM
The Plan A for the Reds was to sign Chapman as a starter and Willis for the pen. Willis is pitching well starting in AAA while Chapman has been up and down in the pen in the majors (while not getting the innings he needs for 2012). With Bailey and Cueto back, keeping Willis in the AAA rotation just in case seems less necessary. Maybe its time for a look at Willis in the pen while Chapman goes down and stretches out a bit. He can always be recalled for the pen if needed.

reds44
05-05-2011, 10:28 PM
Not at all. Is he immune to demotion?

I don't care if he throws 120 mph, if he can't throw strikes, he's no good to anyone. I also get the feeling he's in love with his own readings on the radar gun.
He's given up runs in 2 games this year and his ERA is barely over 2 and you want to demote him? Whaaaa?

Chip R
05-05-2011, 11:25 PM
He's given up runs in 2 games this year and his ERA is barely over 2 and you want to demote him? Whaaaa?

I didn't say I wanted to demote him now. I asked if he still has problems finding the strike zone like he did today, he isn't doing the Reds any good. I'd rather have a guy pitching who can throw strikes and only break 90 a few times than a guy who can throw 105 and can't find the strike zone.

Just because he's popular doesn't mean he can't be sent down. The Reds got along fine last year without him. I'm glad the Reds have him but just like everybody else on the roster he has to produce; 105 mph or not.

reds44
05-05-2011, 11:28 PM
I didn't say I wanted to demote him now. I asked if he still has problems finding the strike zone like he did today, he isn't doing the Reds any good. I'd rather have a guy pitching who can throw strikes and only break 90 a few times than a guy who can throw 105 and can't find the strike zone.

Just because he's popular doesn't mean he can't be sent down. The Reds got along fine last year without him. I'm glad the Reds have him but just like everybody else on the roster he has to produce; 105 mph or not.
He is producing. Look at his numbers. Yes, he struggles with command at times, but he throws 105. He's not going to always knows where it's going. Carlos Marmol walks almost 6 guys per 9 and he is doing just fine.

WebScorpion
05-06-2011, 04:52 AM
IMHO, he should have been starting in AAA all year. With Cueto and Bailey going down, he may have been starting in the back of our rotation by now. Since he's begun the season in the 'pen, he should probably continue working from the bullpen all season...the time for conversion back to starter is in the off-season.
My hope for him this season was that he'd start in AAA all season and if successful, get called up just before the Sep 1st deadline, qualifying him for the post-season roster. Team gets to the playoffs by playing solid, consistent baseball all season long and then gets a #1 starter added to the front of the rotation for the playoff run. :thumbup:
Apparently, we need the gate draw of a 105mph fastball on any given day more than we need a #1 starter to lead our rotation. :dunno:

Always Red
05-06-2011, 07:49 AM
Apparently, we need the gate draw of a 105mph fastball on any given day more than we need a #1 starter to lead our rotation. :dunno:

I think the fascination with 105.1 is proving to be more of a hindrance than a help for Chapman and the Reds. I kind of wish he maxed out at 103 or so. :D

He's a kid, and he's obviously enamored with it, since it's tattooed on his pitching arm.

I'm sure the Reds FO is more concerned with how many hitters he retires rather than whether or not he's hitting 105 or 103 on the radar gun.

Though I do understand the whole phenomenon myself- it is utterly mesmerizing to see a human being throw that hard. But he still needs to develop into a better pitcher than the thrower he is now. It will be very hard to send him down now, and his talent is undeniable.

The Reds need to figure out a way to continue to nurture that talent and develop him on the MLB level, I think. The Mets did it with Nolan Ryan back in the mid 60's- he blew away minor league hitters for 3 years, they finally brought him up for good at age 21, and he was really a part time starter for them for 4 years, learning how to pitch the entire time.

cumberlandreds
05-06-2011, 07:58 AM
Any thoughts about sending him down to AAA if this uberwild streak continues?

I thought the same thing. Another couple of outings like the two recent ones and you would have to seriously consider it. I am somewhat concerned that he may be hurting and not telling anyone. It seems he has had some flucuations in velocity. 100+ one outing, then mid 90's or so in another one. I hope an injury is not the case and its just some mechanical thing that can be worked out.

pahster
05-06-2011, 08:33 AM
Chapman's BB/9 of 9.2 is highly problematic. He doesn't struggle with his command "at times," he always struggles with it.

Unassisted
05-10-2011, 10:57 PM
Marty said tonight "Every time this kid comes in to pitch, it's an adventure.

Whatever's wrong with him, it doesn't seem like a problem for which the solution is a move into the rotation.

HokieRed
05-10-2011, 10:58 PM
While it's not a solution, the thing to do immediately is to move him into the rotation in Louisville, where he'll get to pitch every 5 days.

fearofpopvol1
05-10-2011, 10:59 PM
While it's not a solution, the thing to do immediately is to move him into the rotation in Louisville, where he'll get to pitch every 5 days.

i agree with this.

Superdude
05-10-2011, 11:00 PM
Whatever's wrong with him, it doesn't seem like a problem for which the solution is a move into the rotation.

The solution is certainly not telling him to bomb a dozen fastballs a few days a week in relatively high pressure situations. Get the guy in Louisville and teach him the basics of pitching beyond just pouring heat.

Slyder
05-10-2011, 11:02 PM
Why send him down to stretch him out. While they will never do this the team could start him every 5th or 6th day and start to stretch him out then have Leake as the planned relief man or even LeCure as the planned relief/back up starter for that game.

Yes, it wastes a spot on the roster for pitching but it helps to stretch him out against big league hitters that will hit his fastball if it is not located and allows him to work with Ramon and Price.

He'll be at AAA with Mario Soto and the bright lights of MLB off of him. Let him learn to pitch more than just 100+ heat. There's got to be someone at AAA (besides Soto) who can work as a translator on the field if needed.

reds44
05-10-2011, 11:08 PM
Why do you think making a guy with control problems a starter is a good idea?

Griffey012
05-10-2011, 11:14 PM
Why do you think making a guy with control problems a starter is a good idea?

In AAA it is. He gets more opportunity to hammer out his control issues and become a pitcher instead of a thrower. At the MLB level a starter is not a good idea because it magnifies his control issues on the big stage and he doesn't get a chance to work them out.

I agree. Get him to AAA as a starter, with the emergence of Bray and Arredondo knocking down the door we are in no dire need of Chapman in the pen.

With as deep as our pitching staff, he could become some unbelievable trade bait if he performs well as a starter in AAA, not advocating, but just sayin'...

Superdude
05-10-2011, 11:21 PM
Why do you think making a guy with control problems a starter is a good idea?

Ideally, he spends the year down there and learns to tone his delivery down and throw strikes at 93-97 for 6-7 innings instead of the "airing it out" crap we're seeing right now. I never liked the bullpen idea in the first place and thought it was a shortsighted move that has essentially stopped, or at least severely stalled, his development as a pitcher for the last 8 or so months.

If he reaches a point a year or two from now where he's squandered every opportunity to be a major league starter, I think that's when you look at salvaging some value from the contract and put him back in the pen.

HokieRed
05-10-2011, 11:21 PM
We may not yet know what the best role for Chapman is. What I do think we know is A. He needs innngs; and B. He's making no contribution to the major league club now. Those two things suggest he should be at Louisville pitching every five days.

Homer Bailey
05-10-2011, 11:30 PM
Why do you think making a guy with control problems a starter is a good idea?

He needs innings right now, and he can't be trusted in an MLB game.

mbgrayson
05-11-2011, 12:56 AM
He needs to go to Louisville and get himself right as a relief pitcher this season, and move him to start next season.

I worry that something may be wrong physically with Chapman. Is his arm hurting? Tonight he totally lacked control, and never broke 100. I just wonder if there is something wrong....control issues sometimes indicate arm problems. Last year 5 BBs in 13 innings, and this year we have 16 walks in about 13 innings. Hope this isn't what's going on....

Ron Madden
05-11-2011, 06:15 AM
Dusty Baker: Minors not an option for Chapman.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/05/11/baker-minors-not-option-for-chapman/

klw
05-11-2011, 06:15 AM
Chapman hasn't retired a hitter in 11 days.
Since getting his first batter our on 4.30, his hitters have gone

BB
BB
BB
2b
k
k

BB
BB
1b

BB
HBP
BB
BB

He also could not get into at least one game due to issues related to not being able to warm up quickly. Baker said they think he needs an inning to warm up an probably can't come into the middle of an inning. All this is somewhat troubling.

mth123
05-11-2011, 06:37 AM
Dontrelle Willis has a 2.52 ERA with 34 Ks, 11 walks and 2 HR Allowed in 35 and two-thirds innings at AAA. The Reds brought him in to be a reliever on the first place. I'd say Leake and Chapman to AAA and Willis and Arredondo to the Reds. The Reds will need a second lefty for the pen and Arredondo needs to be activatved. Leake and Chapman should both be starting right now. Put me down as some one who thinks Chapman needs regular work. Even if he starts and only goes a couple innings each time and then the real starter comes in, he needs regular work to get right IMO.

A couple more outings without retiring anyone, no control and the velocity off a bit and Dusty might change his tune. Hopefully, Chapman gets it together and nothing needs done, but it seems like he won't get it together with sporadic usage and mop-up duty.

membengal
05-11-2011, 06:52 AM
I was one who stated somewhere on this board in some thread or another that I was fine with him out of the 'pen in the short-term because he could build innings and garner experience toward starting while still helping the team win. Well, that is all out the window if he can't throw strikes, on several levels. One, he isn't helping the team. Two, he won't get consistent work to build innings since they can't feel safe enough to use him.

I am now persuaded that the best thing is AAA and starting games to work it out. Doing that not only does he get worked into the role that he probably needs to be (starting) but he can safely work on everything else that goes into being a consistent pitcher.

One final thought, I think it was Always last page who stated that throwing 105 was the worst thing that ever happened to him. Completely agree. I have long since grown tired of the sideshow carnival barker aspect to his fastball. He is not the first nor the last who will get to or near the Show with a crazy high fastball at times. But I am not interested in him being the latest in that long line of freaky sideshow guys who can do no more than occasionally blaze a fastball. I would be far more interested in seeing if he can harness it and become a pitcher like a Verlander who works upper 90s late into games. I bet Verlander could throw 102-104 if he HAD to, but he has long since decided not to. Reds need to shepherd this asset to that level or I do believe they will mis-manage the asset.

klw
05-11-2011, 07:00 AM
One final thought, I think it was Always last page who stated that throwing 105 was the worst thing that ever happened to him. Completely agree. I have long since grown tired of the sideshow carnival barker aspect to his fastball. He is not the first nor the last who will get to or near the Show with a crazy high fastball at times. But I am not interested in him being the latest in that long line of freaky sideshow guys who can do no more than occasionally blaze a fastball. I would be far more interested in seeing if he can harness it and become a pitcher like a Verlander who works upper 90s late into games. I bet Verlander could throw 102-104 if he HAD to, but he has long since decided not to. Reds need to shepherd this asset to that level or I do believe they will mis-manage the asset.

I don't think he has been throwing as hard these past few outings, if I am remembering correctly. If so, that could be part of the issue. I found when pitching that my accuracy was always best when not holding back because that was I had developed my motion for. If he is trying to hold back a bit he may have a kink in his mechanics as a result.

membengal
05-11-2011, 07:03 AM
I don't think he has been throwing as hard these past few outings, if I am remembering correctly. If so, that could be part of the issue. I found when pitching that my accuracy was always best when not holding back because that was I had developed my motion for. If he is trying to hold back a bit he may have a kink in his mechanics as a result.

No, he hasn't. But my point is that having done it once has made THAT the focus of his outings, with fans and media at least. And maybe him, since he has it tatoo'd on his arm. And from my perspective, that is a BAD thing. Heck, everytime he sits at "only" 98, for instance, inevitably there are posts/complaints about why it isn't more and worry about his arm being hurt.

Whatever else the issue, figuring out how hard he can consistently throw and how to control it and mix in sliders and change-ups are things that can probably only happen with consistent work at, say, AAA, and I am persuaded that my previous view was wrong that it could be worked on safely in the bigs.

Always Red
05-11-2011, 07:26 AM
The PR implications alone make a demotion to AAA difficult for the FO. This team counts on that 105 mph fastball to sell tickets, even if he only is unveiled once a week or so.

Chapman hasn't been pitching at all- he's been merely throwing, chucking it in there as hard as he can, overthrowing which actually takes speed off his fastball.

Watching Homer Bailey actually PITCH last night, followed by Chapman's outing opened my eyes to how far Homer Bailey has come in the last 2 years. Homer has an idea now; Aroldis is simply mindlessly chucking the ball. He's a one trick pony at this point.

Experience is everything.

edabbs44
05-11-2011, 08:09 AM
I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit. Let's give him a chance to work out his issues before we change him into a starter, send him to the minors, cut him outright, etc.

lollipopcurve
05-11-2011, 08:25 AM
I had the distinct impression that Chapman did best last year when he was closing in Louisville and in late, tight situations. Seemed like he thrived on that. If I was the Reds, I'd bring him back in those kinds of situations, but, for now, with another arm always ready. Almost like a LOOGY, to see if he can get his confidence back. I just don't think it will work to have him pitch every 5 days or so in low-pressure situations.

bucksfan2
05-11-2011, 08:43 AM
The best thing for the Reds is the worst thing for Chapman. I think you can attribute his wildness to not being able to pitch on a routine basis. Im not talking every 5 days but he has gone stretches without pitching for 6 days at a time.

I guess the way I see it if Dusty and the Reds can't get him into the game every other day or so he doesn't belong on the MLB roster.

edabbs44
05-11-2011, 09:00 AM
We don't know what's going on. Maybe he hasn't pitched a ton bc he has a little soreness or because he is working on mechanics on side sessions.

I think Price is the guy I want around him most right now.

Chip R
05-11-2011, 09:25 AM
The best thing for the Reds is the worst thing for Chapman. I think you can attribute his wildness to not being able to pitch on a routine basis. Im not talking every 5 days but he has gone stretches without pitching for 6 days at a time.

I guess the way I see it if Dusty and the Reds can't get him into the game every other day or so he doesn't belong on the MLB roster.

That may be. If Dusty won't put him in a game unless the Reds are up big or down big he may not get the work he needs to stay sharp. If the Reds planned on using him as a long man, that would be one thing. But long men have to pitch 2-3 innings a game and while Chapman may physically be able to do that, it doesn't appear that he can actually do that and that isn't the role he was being used in.

I think part of it's mental too. When you start walking guys like he's done, the strike zone in your mind shrinks to the size of a dinner plate. Maybe he's trying to be too fine or throw too hard. Whatever it is, he's not doing anyone any good now. It's like having a Rule 5 guy on the staff.

traderumor
05-11-2011, 09:30 AM
The PR implications alone make a demotion to AAA difficult for the FO. This team counts on that 105 mph fastball to sell tickets, even if he only is unveiled once a week or so.

Chapman hasn't been pitching at all- he's been merely throwing, chucking it in there as hard as he can, overthrowing which actually takes speed off his fastball.

Watching Homer Bailey actually PITCH last night, followed by Chapman's outing opened my eyes to how far Homer Bailey has come in the last 2 years. Homer has an idea now; Aroldis is simply mindlessly chucking the ball. He's a one trick pony at this point.

Experience is everything.

This is not the MO of the current management. I think they understand that very few folks are buying a ticket to see Chapman pitch. Sure, folks get excited when he comes in, but I don't think that is why they buy the ticket. Since he is a reliever, it would not make sense to do so. Now, if he was a starter, then you might have an argument since his appearances are announced.

But, I have seen very little out of this regime that makes me think that they put PR considerations above winning ballgames and developing players.

REDREAD
05-11-2011, 09:41 AM
I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit. Let's give him a chance to work out his issues before we change him into a starter, send him to the minors, cut him outright, etc.

That's my take too. Give him 2 weeks with Price, to try to find his control again. Dusty and the Reds are probably trying to give the kid confidence. Yo yoing him back and forth to Louisville every time he has a bad 2 weeks is not going to build the kid's confidence.

In spite of Marty being so melodramic, Chapman really didn't damage the team last night. Sure, it was a bad outing, but did anyone really fear that Houston was going to come back?

When Chapman works his way through this wild spell, it will be a good experience for him. There was certainly little complaints of him in the bullpen last year on the forum (when he was performing).. Consider this a wild spell, much like Masset has occasionally.

I'm glad Walt and Baker are not panicing. Continue to groom Chapman at the ML level. We have until the postseason to fix him.

I do agree with the point that Arrondo and Willis puts the pressure on to make a move.

membengal
05-11-2011, 10:29 AM
I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit. Let's give him a chance to work out his issues before we change him into a starter, send him to the minors, cut him outright, etc.

I don't understand the last part of this. No one has said to cut him, why write that like it has been discussed? As for the rest, plenty of very sharp posters opined from the jump that AAA and starting is what they would do so its not like that discussion is a new thing. In terms of this discussion, whether he is well served and the team well served by this arrangement is a fair one.

Homer Bailey
05-11-2011, 10:49 AM
From Ben Badler:


Time to take him out of the bullpen. Makes no sense for his development RT @csolomon15 Officially time for concern with Chapman?

edabbs44
05-11-2011, 11:15 AM
I don't understand the last part of this. No one has said to cut him, why write that like it has been discussed? As for the rest, plenty of very sharp posters opined from the jump that AAA and starting is what they would do so its not like that discussion is a new thing. In terms of this discussion, whether he is well served and the team well served by this arrangement is a fair one.

The last part was tongue in cheek...

Always Red
05-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Officially time for concern with Chapman?

He's walked 8 batters in his last full inning of work, over 3 appearances.

Concern is warranted.

I could envision perhaps a DL stint followed by a short rehab in AAA, if nothing else in order to get some confidence back, slow him down, and also create room for Arredondo and/or Willis to join the club, to see what they have to offer.

bucksfan2
05-11-2011, 12:08 PM
He's walked 8 batters in his last full inning of work, over 3 appearances.

Concern is warranted.

I could envision perhaps a DL stint followed by a short rehab in AAA, if nothing else in order to get some confidence back, slow him down, and also create room for Arredondo and/or Willis to join the club, to see what they have to offer.

Why the DL stint? He has options, they don't need to sugar coat sending him down to AAA. If they want to then just do it. If they want to rest him for a week or so then send him to AAA and do so.

Chip R
05-11-2011, 12:18 PM
Why the DL stint? He has options, they don't need to sugar coat sending him down to AAA. If they want to then just do it. If they want to rest him for a week or so then send him to AAA and do so.

If he gets sent down to AAA that burns one of his options. That may be the reason why. It may also be that Dusty is trying to bolster Chapman's confidence.

Always Red
05-11-2011, 12:20 PM
Why the DL stint? He has options, they don't need to sugar coat sending him down to AAA. If they want to then just do it. If they want to rest him for a week or so then send him to AAA and do so.

I don't think it's that simple, because I think his confidence is an issue. If he walked 8 guys in an inning then something is obviously physically wrong, right? (wink, wink). This is done all the time by teams.

As for the confidence- the guy has 105.1 tattooed on his arm. It looks to me right now that he tries to hit that mark every time out, instead of trying to get batters out. Last night he was wildly overthrowing.

If they can get his head and mechanics straight by summer (if there is indeed nothing physically wrong with him) then he'll be good to go for any stretch run.

_Sir_Charles_
05-11-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't think it's that simple, because I think his confidence is an issue. If he walked 8 guys in an inning then something is obviously physically wrong, right? (wink, wink). This is done all the time by teams.

As for the confidence- the guy has 105.1 tattooed on his arm. It looks to me right now that he tries to hit that mark every time out, instead of trying to get batters out. Last night he was wildly overthrowing.

If they can get his head and mechanics straight by summer (if there is indeed nothing physically wrong with him) then he'll be good to go for any stretch run.

Agree 100%. I'd love it if we started seeing him sitting at around 99mph or so. He does NOT have to be at 104 to be successful. Heck, his fastball isn't even his best pitch. He should be using it to set up the slider. The slider is his out pitch IMO. But right now, he's overthrowing and trying to get guys out on the fastball instead of the other way around. I'm not sure we can pin all of this on Chappy either. This goes on Baker, Price and the catchers too in regards to pitch calling, waiting too long for visits to the mound, leaving him out there too long when it's obvious there's a problem, etc.

Blitz Dorsey
05-11-2011, 12:45 PM
Obviously when I started this thread I meant "in the minors." Haha.

No, I think The Missile will get it figured out. We all knew command/control was his big issue.

REDREAD
05-11-2011, 01:13 PM
It may also be that Dusty is trying to bolster Chapman's confidence.

Yep, I think that's exactly why. If Dusty tells Chapman to relax, trust his stuff, etc... and then Chapman gets sent down to AAA a couple days later, that does not exactly inspire confidence.

Here's his game log: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8616/gamelog

His last three appearances have been bad. No one is disputing that.
He has twelve appearances prior to that. Gave up no earned runs in those appearances, although he did have one appearance where he walked 2 and another where he walked 3. So 10 out of the previous 12 appearances were solid.

He's going through a rough spot. I'm glad Dusty is here. Everything is going to be ok :)

OnBaseMachine
05-11-2011, 01:43 PM
What's weird is right before this string of wildness, Chapman had perhaps his most impressive outing in the major leagues. On April 27th in Milwaukee, he pitched 1.2 innings with 0 walks and 2 K's and threw a total of 19 pitches, 17 of which were for strikes. He had pinpoint control that day. Since then, he's walked eight batters in 1+ inning. That's a tough one to figure out.

OnBaseMachine
05-11-2011, 01:52 PM
From John Fay - Bryan Price on Chapman:


“You get to those places where you’re not throwing strikes and your only focus is to try to throw the ball over,” Price said. “Maybe you aim it a little bit. I think that’s where he is right now. There’s noticeable difference between how he was throwing the ball in Milwaukee — in what I thought was his most dominant performance — and where he was last night in his arm slot. His fingers aren’t on top the ball. He’s getting a lot of run and pull.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/05/11/price-on-chapman-3/

RedsManRick
05-11-2011, 07:48 PM
Frangraphs has an analysis of Chapman's wildness: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/diagnosing-aroldis-chapman-s-wildness/

The short version -- his release point is higher and closer to 3B and his pitches are ending up higher and closer to 3B. Sounds like Price has the arm slot issue identified. Just an issue of fixing it.

Brutus
05-11-2011, 07:56 PM
Why do you think making a guy with control problems a starter is a good idea?

Like Edinson?

:D

AtomicDumpling
05-11-2011, 09:35 PM
Whenever a flamethrower has a bad stretch people will say he is focusing too much on the radar gun and overthrowing -- even when he is clearly not throwing as hard as he was when he was pitching well.

I think he just needs to focus on his mechanics and make a minor adjustment with the help of the pitching coach. No need to overreact and ship him off to the minors so soon after dominating for nearly the first month of the season. It is possible the lack of use in game action may have contributed to an inadvertent change in his pitching motion. Correct it in the bullpen and get him back out there -- just keep someone warm in the bullpen behind him until he regains Dusty's confidence.

WVRedsFan
05-11-2011, 10:10 PM
From John Fay - Bryan Price on Chapman:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/05/11/price-on-chapman-3/

That's what I was looking for. I knew Price was working on this--he had to be, but I bet he's working on Volquez too. It will be interesting to see which pitcher, if any, follows this instruction and straightens up his act. My money's on Chapman.

WVRedsFan
05-11-2011, 10:13 PM
What's weird is right before this string of wildness, Chapman had perhaps his most impressive outing in the major leagues. On April 27th in Milwaukee, he pitched 1.2 innings with 0 walks and 2 K's and threw a total of 19 pitches, 17 of which were for strikes. He had pinpoint control that day. Since then, he's walked eight batters in 1+ inning. That's a tough one to figure out.You ever play golf, OBM?

Once, I went out for a string of 30 days and just burnt up the course (for me :)). Made every putt and hit every fairway. I was supergolfer. Then as quickly as it came, I was back shooting 90, couldn't hit a green and couldn't make a putt. Without knowing it, I had changed something I was doing. I got it corrected, but I drift back into that from time to time and don't know I'm doing it. That's what Chapman is doing. Price will probably get him straightened out. I hope.

WrongVerb
05-12-2011, 07:51 AM
To my entirely untrained eye, watching him Tuesday evening, it looked like when Chapman landed, his right leg was rather stiff. Like he either wasn't striding as far as he should be, or wasn't bending his knee at the release. This could be the reason his release point is slightly higher.


Once, I went out for a string of 30 days and just burnt up the course (for me :)). Made every putt and hit every fairway. I was supergolfer. Then as quickly as it came, I was back shooting 90, couldn't hit a green and couldn't make a putt. Without knowing it, I had changed something I was doing. I got it corrected, but I drift back into that from time to time and don't know I'm doing it. That's what Chapman is doing. Price will probably get him straightened out. I hope.

I'll second this. I'm a rather decent bowler (220+ avg), but sometimes struggle because I have certain tendencies I fall back to when I'm not paying attention to them. Once those are corrected, the high scores return.

OesterPoster
05-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Interesting note about a lefty with similar "stuff" as Chapman. That's an insane number of fastballs, but location, location, location is the key.



In today's Insider-only blog post, ESPN's Buster Olney notes that Rays ace David Price is relying heavily on his fastball. Price threw 103 fastballs out of 112 pitches yesterday, though he averaged a season-high 95.3 mph with the pitch and threw it to both sides of the plate.

757690
05-12-2011, 02:37 PM
Interesting note about a lefty with similar "stuff" as Chapman. That's an insane number of fastballs, but location, location, location is the key.

From the Leo Mazzone school of pitching. Nothing more important than being able to locate your fastball.

May be send this to Edinson?

kaldaniels
05-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Interesting note about a lefty with similar "stuff" as Chapman. That's an insane number of fastballs, but location, location, location is the key.

Thats amazing. You could face him 4 times in a game and sit on fastball every pitch. And still get owned.

fearofpopvol1
05-15-2011, 04:25 PM
I think it is time to make him a starter....at AAA.

traderumor
05-15-2011, 04:37 PM
In the interest of a guy's career, end the charade and let the guy go down and get his confidence back. This is not mechanical at this stage, but now its inside his head. I don't think that's gonna get fixed in simulated games or side sessions.

SirFelixCat
05-15-2011, 04:52 PM
In the interest of a guy's career, end the charade and let the guy go down and get his confidence back. This is not mechanical at this stage, but now its inside his head. I don't think that's gonna get fixed in simulated games or side sessions.

Ding, Ding, Winner!

Big Klu
05-15-2011, 04:58 PM
In the interest of a guy's career, end the charade and let the guy go down and get his confidence back. This is not mechanical at this stage, but now its inside his head. I don't think that's gonna get fixed in simulated games or side sessions.

I firmly believe that the Cardinals went to the plate with the "take" sign until they had two strikes. It's what I would do if I were managing against Chapman right now.

I agree that he need to go to Louisville and get right. Bring up Dontrelle Willis to take his place.

OldXOhio
05-15-2011, 05:00 PM
In the interest of a guy's career, end the charade and let the guy go down and get his confidence back. This is not mechanical at this stage, but now its inside his head. I don't think that's gonna get fixed in simulated games or side sessions.

Yep - also in the interest of his teammates who are being asked every time AC throws to bail the team out of a dicey situation. Can't be good for the psyche of the guys in the pen.

CTA513
05-15-2011, 05:01 PM
12 2/3rd innings, 16 BB

Last 3 outings: 1 Inning, 2 Hits, 6 Runs, 8 BB, 3 K
He didn't get an out in his last 2 outings