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Drugs Delaney
05-05-2011, 05:46 PM
Does Lance Berkman look unnaturally big?

There's a picture of him on the front page of ESPN.com and his forearms are monstrous with veins popping out everywhere.

I generally think its unfair to randomly accuse guys of steroid usage, but this guy went from washed up with no bat speed to having a quicker bat than ever before at age 35.

Its suspicious as hell....

Oxblood
05-05-2011, 06:56 PM
He's getting advice from his batting coach on which cheek to use :laugh:

10xWSChamps
05-05-2011, 07:06 PM
Lance has actually lost a lot of weight from last year (And previous years)

Hondo
05-05-2011, 07:13 PM
Dudes hitting .392 with 10 Homers....

Would have rather had him in left at 8 Million then signing a backup SS named Edgar Renteria for 2 Million...

brm7675
05-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Dudes hitting .392 with 10 Homers....

Would have rather had him in left at 8 Million then signing a backup SS named Edgar Renteria for 2 Million...

Trust me as the summer heats up and the wear and tear from playing the OF takes it effect his numbers will drop. Poor use of 8 million in my opinion

Hondo
05-05-2011, 07:34 PM
Trust me as the summer heats up and the wear and tear from playing the OF takes it effect his numbers will drop. Poor use of 8 million in my opinion

Ok I will trust you. Do you have any Ocean Front Property in Arizona I can Buy too?

brm7675
05-05-2011, 08:14 PM
Ok I will trust you. Do you have any Ocean Front Property in Arizona I can Buy too?

He is only getting older, he is NOT a physical speciem and playing even RF will take a wear and tear on his body. He's not a 20 something kid anymore. Hell Rolen started off great last year for us and looked what happen, sorry but he will not maintain...(unless he is getting help :laugh:)

BAKER12
05-05-2011, 08:16 PM
Berkman was FAT the last few years
He is a terrible RF and I can not imagine he is a roid guy
Would be like Casey or Griffey being a juicer
I would assume he actually got in shape this winter because he sucked last season
Would love that bat, but the glove sucks

mroby85
05-05-2011, 09:54 PM
I'm just glad I got Adrian Gonzalez out of himin fantasy baseball, lol. Hopefully he flops, but he's been a great signing so far.

CySeymour
05-06-2011, 10:22 AM
I looked at the pic, and I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. He's definately slimmed down. By losing bodyfat, your muscles and vascularity show more. Sorry, but throwing around roid accusations on a lark is pretty irresponsible.

Vottomatic
05-06-2011, 10:44 AM
Well, so far, everything is going right for the Cardinals (except for losing Wainwright) and everything is going wrong for the Reds.

Hopefully, the law of averages turns things around.

Red in Atl
05-06-2011, 11:10 AM
They did a story on him last night on MLB. He didn't get much interest in the offseason, so he has a "chip" on his shoulder. Supposedly worked out like crazy, lost weight and is on a mission. Also doesn't hurt he played for the Yankees at the end of the year to remember what it's like to play for a winner.

As long as he's healthy, the Cards have a heck of a big 3. He's done for the Cards what Rolen did for us.

will5979
05-06-2011, 11:10 AM
everything is going wrong for the Reds.

I beg to differ, we have won 2 in a row for the first time in weeks, we win today, thats called a winning streak, it has happened before, SO LETS JACK IT UP, LETS SEE SOME HUSTLE OUT THERE! I have a feeling things are getting ready to turn around for us!

Oxblood
05-06-2011, 11:16 AM
I looked at the pic, and I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. He's definately slimmed down. By losing bodyfat, your muscles and vascularity show more. Sorry, but throwing around roid accusations on a lark is pretty irresponsible.
:laugh:

bounty37h
05-06-2011, 11:19 AM
I beg to differ, we have won 2 in a row for the first time in weeks, we win today, thats called a winning streak, it has happened before, SO LETS JACK IT UP, LETS SEE SOME HUSTLE OUT THERE! I have a feeling things are getting ready to turn around for us!

Haha, watched that Sunday, good call Will!

Swampturkey
05-06-2011, 11:45 AM
Does Lance Berkman look unnaturally big?

There's a picture of him on the front page of ESPN.com and his forearms are monstrous with veins popping out everywhere.

I generally think its unfair to randomly accuse guys of steroid usage, but this guy went from washed up with no bat speed to having a quicker bat than ever before at age 35.

Its suspicious as hell....

So a guy is having an amazing start to his season so you automatically assumed he uses PEDs?? Classy.

Oxblood
05-06-2011, 11:48 AM
So a guy is having an amazing start to his season so you automatically assumed he uses PEDs?? Classy.

Not out of the question considering the team, is it?

Batting coach, manager, pujols....

Hey Meat
05-06-2011, 11:58 AM
On MLB Tonight, The Mayor (Sean Casey) was breaking down Fat Elvis's swing from 08 to 11. He showed how the knee surgery last year had an effect on his swing and how he has come back this year.

mlh1981
05-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Any older player can get off to a hot start, or put it together for a stretch, but over the 162, it's very hard to sustain this type of effort.

bounty37h
05-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Not out of the question considering the team, is it?

Batting coach, manager, pujols....

Yeah, I personally dont *think* he is, but it certainly is not out of the question it, considering what you pointed out as well as where he came from before being with those guys, as well as rise from the near retired. Again, likely just a chip on his shoulder and hard work, but not out of the question either by any means.

mroby85
05-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Well, so far, everything is going right for the Cardinals (except for losing Wainwright) and everything is going wrong for the Reds.

Hopefully, the law of averages turns things around.

I don't really agree with this. Wainwright which you already mentioned is a HUGE loss, but along with that they lost Holliday for about a week, and Albert Pujols is hitting around .250 which obviously won't continue. Ryan Franklin has blown about 4 games they had the lead in, along with Boggs blowing a save. I don't really feel like they've gotten many breaks to this point.

big boy
05-06-2011, 02:56 PM
The Reds should have made a run for Berkman. The Reds pay:

Edgar Renteria: $3 million

Ramon Hernandez: $3 million

Jonny Gomes: $1.75 million

Miguel Cairo: $1 million

That totals up to $8.75 million.

Instead, the Reds could have tried to give that money to Lance Berkman, who went to the Cardinals for $8 million.

mroby85
05-06-2011, 03:31 PM
I don't think I would let all those players go for Berkman. I highly doubt he can keep up this pace for the remainder of the season.

Vottomatic
05-06-2011, 03:32 PM
The Reds should have made a run for Berkman. The Reds pay:

Edgar Renteria: $3 million

Ramon Hernandez: $3 million

Jonny Gomes: $1.75 million

Miguel Cairo: $1 million

That totals up to $8.75 million.

Instead, the Reds could have tried to give that money to Lance Berkman, who went to the Cardinals for $8 million.

Or they could have used the money to go to Frisch's and have a few Big Boys. :D

big boy
05-06-2011, 03:41 PM
I don't think I would let all those players go for Berkman. I highly doubt he can keep up this pace for the remainder of the season.

I would ditch all those guys for Lance Berkman quick like.

mroby85
05-06-2011, 04:01 PM
I would ditch all those guys for Lance Berkman quick like.

I see your point, and I know his production up to this point has been really good. What you have to keep in mind is at the time of those signings a lot of people thought Berkman was washed up. You'd also be taking Ramon out, who is a very solid part of their catching platoon. Not to mention the weak bench they would have. I think it would end up hurting you in terms of depth, especially if Berkman had another down year like he had been having, or got injured.

bounty37h
05-06-2011, 04:12 PM
The Reds should have made a run for Berkman. The Reds pay:

Edgar Renteria: $3 million

Ramon Hernandez: $3 million

Jonny Gomes: $1.75 million

Miguel Cairo: $1 million

That totals up to $8.75 million.

Instead, the Reds could have tried to give that money to Lance Berkman, who went to the Cardinals for $8 million.

By the end of the full season we will likely have got more production out of all those guys for that money then they will for just Berkman. He is on fire now, but not likely to go all season at this pace.

big boy
05-06-2011, 04:32 PM
By the end of the full season we will likely have got more production out of all those guys for that money then they will for just Berkman. He is on fire now, but not likely to go all season at this pace.

He should end up near where he was in 2008 when he put up .312/.420/.567/.986.

You would rather have a part-time shortstop, utility player, below average left fielder, and solid catcher?

Tadasimha
05-06-2011, 04:38 PM
He should end up near where he was in 2008 when he put up .312/.420/.567/.986.

You would rather have a part-time shortstop, utility player, below average left fielder, and solid catcher?

There's one issue: where would you play Berkman for that $8? You'd still end up with the below average left fielder and there's NO guarantee he ends up with the same slash line as '08 just because he should.

big boy
05-06-2011, 05:02 PM
There's one issue: where would you play Berkman for that $8? You'd still end up with the below average left fielder and there's NO guarantee he ends up with the same slash line as '08 just because he should.

He would play left field. Of course, nothing is guaranteed...he could even do better.

bounty37h
05-06-2011, 05:21 PM
He should end up near where he was in 2008 when he put up .312/.420/.567/.986.

You would rather have a part-time shortstop, utility player, below average left fielder, and solid catcher?

Your going to ignore 09 an 10, even if injured, for a 37 year old (below average) leftfielder who most thought was washed up already. Agian, know he was injured and came in shape this year, but still dont see it for a full year

big boy
05-06-2011, 06:57 PM
Your going to ignore 09 an 10, even if injured, for a 37 year old (below average) leftfielder who most thought was washed up already. Agian, know he was injured and came in shape this year, but still dont see it for a full year

His 2009 season is pretty good too: .274/.399/.509/.907.

Hondo
05-06-2011, 07:37 PM
By the end of the full season we will likely have got more production out of all those guys for that money then they will for just Berkman. He is on fire now, but not likely to go all season at this pace.

I disagree... The protection that Berkman would be providing for Votto would be invaulable...

Jack Burton
05-06-2011, 09:16 PM
I disagree... The protection that Berkman would be providing for Votto would be invaulable...

Good point.

webbbj
05-06-2011, 09:34 PM
The Reds should have made a run for Berkman. The Reds pay:

Edgar Renteria: $3 million

Ramon Hernandez: $3 million

Jonny Gomes: $1.75 million

Miguel Cairo: $1 million

That totals up to $8.75 million.

Instead, the Reds could have tried to give that money to Lance Berkman, who went to the Cardinals for $8 million.


everyone would be the greatest GM in the world if they could make their decisions after the season.

Before the season most people probably would have said the Cards vastly over paid for a PT OFer.

webbbj
05-06-2011, 09:37 PM
Berkman was FAT the last few years
He is a terrible RF and I can not imagine he is a roid guy
Would be like Casey or Griffey being a juicer
I would assume he actually got in shape this winter because he sucked last season
Would love that bat, but the glove sucks

i think you would have to be pretty naive to be shocked if it were to ever come out that any of these players used PEDs.

mroby85
05-06-2011, 09:37 PM
everyone would be the greatest GM in the world if they could make their decisions after the season.

Before the season most people probably would have said the Cards vastly over paid for a PT OFer.

My thoughts exactly.

big boy
05-06-2011, 10:03 PM
everyone would be the greatest GM in the world if they could make their decisions after the season.

Before the season most people probably would have said the Cards vastly over paid for a PT OFer.

Yeah, only I said this before the season. I was surprised that they resigned Gomes, Cairo, and Renteria. Signing those guys is thinking small. They are safe and nobody would hold it against them if they stink.

Signing Berkman would have been thinking big.

Swampturkey
05-06-2011, 11:16 PM
Not out of the question considering the team, is it?

Batting coach, manager, pujols....

Batting coach, manager, yes...but PUJOLS? NO EVIDENCE! I can't wait for the day people start accusing Votto of using PEDs without any evidence what-so-ever.

I didn't realize the Reds were the only perfectly clean team in baseball...wait, who was it suspended for 50 games for using? Volquez?

mroby85
05-06-2011, 11:18 PM
Yeah, only I said this before the season. I was surprised that they resigned Gomes, Cairo, and Renteria. Signing those guys is thinking small. They are safe and nobody would hold it against them if they stink.

Signing Berkman would have been thinking big.

The problem is you have to field a 25 man roster too. They don't sign 6 guys and sign Berkman they still have to fill 5 spots at the league minimum. I still don't think this would be a good idea because you would have no depth, and Berkman has a history of injury, which could hit before this season is over. It's only May 6th. Also, if you don't resign Ramon, odds are they don't win opening day. He's been very productive to this point as a tandem with Hanigan. Renteria hasn't been bad either, even though I know he's not popular around here. I think hes at the least a very solid bat off the bench. Same goes for Cairo. Gomes was under 2 million, and he definitely produced numbers worth that last year, wouldve been hard to not pick up that option. At any rate, I just disagree, I think depth is important, i'm not sold that Berkman will continue this anyway.

10xWSChamps
05-07-2011, 12:19 AM
I don't really agree with this. Wainwright which you already mentioned is a HUGE loss, but along with that they lost Holliday for about a week, and Albert Pujols is hitting around .250 which obviously won't continue. Ryan Franklin has blown about 4 games they had the lead in, along with Boggs blowing a save. I don't really feel like they've gotten many breaks to this point.

Not to mention that David Freese is going to miss about two months with a broken hand.

DocRed
05-07-2011, 11:11 PM
1 of 2 things will happen to him this year....

1. DL
2. epic slump and return to earth

lonewolf371
05-07-2011, 11:25 PM
1 of 2 things will happen to him this year....

1. DL
2. epic slump and return to earth
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss him. Old players have resurgent years. Look at Derrek Lee, Derek Jeter in 2009. Paul Konerko, Jim Thome in 2010, etc...

Hondo
05-08-2011, 05:21 PM
everyone would be the greatest GM in the world if they could make their decisions after the season.

Before the season most people probably would have said the Cards vastly over paid for a PT OFer.

Hey in the case of this off season. Any of us could have improved the team better than Walt Jocketty...

He did literally nothing besides bring in Fred Lewis & Jeremy Hermidia

(I know he signed some extensions but that isn't improving the team)

bounty37h
05-09-2011, 11:13 AM
I disagree... The protection that Berkman would be providing for Votto would be invaulable...

As long as he doesnt go back to on his way out numbers. I think he is playing above his game right now and will crash back down. Who knows how that will play out, but am glad the Reds arent going to have to find out on our team.

Swampturkey
05-09-2011, 12:13 PM
As Berkman pointed out, aside from his knee surgery last year, he really doesn't have a history of injuries. Even last year, he still played in 122 games even with the knee issues. He's healthy now and back to hitting like he was at the prime of his career.

Magdal
05-09-2011, 12:33 PM
I don't think I would let all those players go for Berkman. I highly doubt he can keep up this pace for the remainder of the season.No truer statement in this thread. Not only will he level out but the league will adjust. He is already being walked and pitched around more, and with nobody batting behind him he can be nutralized.

A tip of the hat to LaRussa. the Central Div. secret weopon for doggedly leaveing Pujols in the 3, and the best hitter in the 5.:beerme:

Razzle
05-09-2011, 05:24 PM
No truer statement in this thread. Not only will he level out but the league will adjust. He is already being walked and pitched around more, and with nobody batting behind him he can be nutralized.

A tip of the hat to LaRussa. the Central Div. secret weopon for doggedly leaveing Pujols in the 3, and the best hitter in the 5.:beerme:

You do realize that Lance Berkman, the guy you are calling "the best hitter", OPS'd just a tad bit better last year than what Pujols is doing right now? Taking Pujols out of the #3 slot in favor of a red hot Berkman would be asinine, especially considering batting order generally does not have THAT large of an effect. I'd be VERY much willing to bet that by the end of the season that Pujols' OPS is better than Berkman's.

Magdal
05-09-2011, 06:08 PM
You do realize that Lance Berkman, the guy you are calling "the best hitter", OPS'd just a tad bit better last year than what Pujols is doing right now? Taking Pujols out of the #3 slot in favor of a red hot Berkman would be asinine, especially considering batting order generally does not have THAT large of an effect. I'd be VERY much willing to bet that by the end of the season that Pujols' OPS is better than Berkman's.

Who is talking about last year? Pujols THIS YEAR has the worst OPS on the team. And the worst fielding pct. (THE RIOT has more at SS, but you can't compare) And the most GIDP.

He is among the leaders in all the big catagories every year. He won't lead his own team in any this year. Well, he may lead in most times admiring warning track "HRs". He's done it twice that I've seen.

Berkman, and the rest of the team have not done it at all. (that I've seen, anyway)

Swampturkey
05-09-2011, 09:06 PM
Who is talking about last year? Pujols THIS YEAR has the worst OPS on the team. And the worst fielding pct. (THE RIOT has more at SS, but you can't compare) And the most GIDP.


Why can you not compare? No way has Pujols been as bad at first as Theriot has been at SS. Theriot has been attrocious. I believe he'll get better, as will Pujols, but his start was by far the worst on the team.

BoilerUp91
05-09-2011, 09:17 PM
I have for sale several Reds schedules from the early 1970's and the Opening Day guide from 1973 from the Cincinnati Post. Very nice collectibles: http://tinyurl.com/6k8seb3 .

Magdal
05-09-2011, 11:49 PM
I have for sale several Reds schedules from the early 1970's and the Opening Day guide from 1973 from the Cincinnati Post. Very nice collectibles: http://tinyurl.com/6k8seb3 .so put 'em on Craigs list you tool!

Magdal
05-09-2011, 11:59 PM
Why can you not compare? No way has Pujols been as bad at first as Theriot has been at SS. Theriot has been attrocious. I believe he'll get better, as will Pujols, but his start was by far the worst on the team.Turkey, you have just exposed yourself as a fan basically ignorant of the game. SS is easily twice as tough a position as 1st....the worst fielders on the team play 1st as a rule. The BEST fielders play SS or center field.

Theriot has 8 errors, AP has 4. It's a wash. Concidering that AP has a gold glove, he is sucking far worse than Riot. I like you Turkey. You are a true fan of your team. But your arguments hold no water.

Razzle
05-10-2011, 12:16 AM
Turkey, you have just exposed yourself as a fan basically ignorant of the game.
I couldn't disagree more.

SS is easily twice as tough a position as 1st....the worst fielders on the team play 1st as a rule. The BEST fielders play SS or center field. Theriot has 8 errors, AP has 4. It's a wash. Concidering that AP has a gold glove, he is sucking far worse than Riot. I like you Turkey. You are a true fan of your team. But your arguments hold no water.
Are you seriously trying to quantify the exact positional values between first and shortstop by just pulling numbers out of thin air and then using errors, and ONLY errors, to justify how Theriot and Pujols have been even in the field this year? Theriot is an absolutely terrible fielder. He has bad range and a subpar arm. Many of the things he does wrong errors do not account for. Meanwhile, Pujols is a plus range first baseman and often times will have more errors than other first basemen due to just that.

While Pujols has had a rougher than average year for himself in the field, he is still nowhere near as bad as Theriot has been. He's a very capable first basemen whereas Theriot should probably be playing second base.

cw0802
05-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Not out of the question considering the team, is it?

Batting coach, manager, pujols....


Votto...

signalhome
05-11-2011, 05:29 PM
I couldn't disagree more.

Are you seriously trying to quantify the exact positional values between first and shortstop by just pulling numbers out of thin air and then using errors, and ONLY errors, to justify how Theriot and Pujols have been even in the field this year? Theriot is an absolutely terrible fielder. He has bad range and a subpar arm. Many of the things he does wrong errors do not account for. Meanwhile, Pujols is a plus range first baseman and often times will have more errors than other first basemen due to just that.

While Pujols has had a rougher than average year for himself in the field, he is still nowhere near as bad as Theriot has been. He's a very capable first basemen whereas Theriot should probably be playing second base.

I wouldn't say he's an absolutely terrible fielder over his career, he's just been kind of average. His career UZR is 0.9.

That being said, his UZR so far this year is -4.4; it's early, so UZR isn't the best of metrics, but that's so bad that I would say it defies the small sample size deficiency of early-season UZR. His UZR/150 is the worst among all qualified shortstops (-22.6; for comparison, Janish's UZR/150 is 31.5). Going by that, he's been beyond awful in the field this year. Once you pair that with his -4.3 UZR last year, maybe he has went from an average shortstop defensively (9.6 UZR from 2005-2009) to a very sub-par shortstop over the last two years (-8.7 UZR over his last 182 games). You may be right in calling him an atrocious defender.

mlh1981
05-12-2011, 08:52 AM
He looked pretty close to done last year while with the Yankees.

Not everyone is cut out for that environment. Perhaps just being back in a more comfortable setting, back in the NL, and with a competitive team has his juices flowing.

DocRed
05-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Last 6 games 1-16...Keep it up Lance!

10xWSChamps
05-13-2011, 12:31 AM
I wouldn't say he's an absolutely terrible fielder over his career, he's just been kind of average. His career UZR is 0.9.

That being said, his UZR so far this year is -4.4; it's early, so UZR isn't the best of metrics, but that's so bad that I would say it defies the small sample size deficiency of early-season UZR. His UZR/150 is the worst among all qualified shortstops (-22.6; for comparison, Janish's UZR/150 is 31.5). Going by that, he's been beyond awful in the field this year. Once you pair that with his -4.3 UZR last year, maybe he has went from an average shortstop defensively (9.6 UZR from 2005-2009) to a very sub-par shortstop over the last two years (-8.7 UZR over his last 182 games). You may be right in calling him an atrocious defender.

All that matters in Mad gal's mind is the first 40 some games in 2011. Pujols being the MVP of the last decade and possibly being the greatest player ever means nothing, he is the Cardinals worst player. Theriot's previous fielding numbers mean nothing, he will put up 75 errors this year.

Funny that Mad gal professes herself to be a Cardinals fan, yet she spends her time on Cubs and Reds board talking smack on the Cardinals!

Swampturkey
05-13-2011, 11:36 AM
Last 6 games 1-16...Keep it up Lance!

He is horrible in his career at Wrigley (I haven't looked at the stats, but the Cardinals broadcasters were talking about it yesterday and Berkman himself said he just has trouble seeing the ball at Wrigley and can't explain it)

I'm not worried. :)

DocRed
05-14-2011, 10:12 AM
He is horrible in his career at Wrigley (I haven't looked at the stats, but the Cardinals broadcasters were talking about it yesterday and Berkman himself said he just has trouble seeing the ball at Wrigley and can't explain it)

I'm not worried. :)

1-18...doing his best imitation of John Jay last year.

DocRed
05-14-2011, 07:55 PM
1-18...doing his best imitation of John Jay last year.

1-21

Magdal
05-14-2011, 10:59 PM
All that matters in Mad gal's mind is the first 40 some games in 2011. Pujols being the MVP of the last decade and possibly being the greatest player ever means nothing, he is the Cardinals worst player. Theriot's previous fielding numbers mean nothing, he will put up 75 errors this year.

Funny that Mad gal professes herself to be a Cardinals fan, yet she spends her time on Cubs and Reds board talking smack on the Cardinals!I don't know what you are missing here Champ. I'm getting tired of saying it. I hate the LaRussa era Cards. My comments on McGuire, TLR and others are not welcome on Cards boards, the biggest Kool-Aid swilling forums you will find on the net.

I'm here to talk baseball. I talk about baseball and you talk about me. Stop worrying about me. If you can't handle my opinions, please ignore them.

Razzle
05-15-2011, 03:48 AM
I don't know what you are missing here Champ. I'm getting tired of saying it. I hate the LaRussa era Cards. My comments on McGuire, TLR and others are not welcome on Cards boards, the biggest Kool-Aid swilling forums you will find on the net
I always hate when my favorite team has a sustained period of success. It just kills me. I don't like LaRussa either, but I'm not going to complain about the success they've had under his management.

Also, the Cards boards I frequent aren't any more "kool-aid swilling" than this place is for Reds fans. However, when you go to a Cards board and call out players like Pujols, generally what you say will be ignored, and deservedly so. He has done enough the past ten years that he gets a pass for starting so slow. The Cardinals have capitalized off of his below market contract for years, which has allowed them to sustain the success they have.

Vottomatic
05-15-2011, 09:26 AM
Back on topic......

Berkman has sucked against us this series. Good to see him cool off.