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Señor Rojo
05-16-2011, 04:38 PM
Some of the Reds and Cardinals players tried to downplay the series between the two teams as a "rivalry." Here are some quotes from yesterday.

"Regardless of your opponent, if you can take a three-game sweep you’re always elated about it. It being the Cardinals and the rough patches we’ve had with them, it just proves to us that we can beat them.”
- Drew Stubbs

“I’ve got nothing against the Cardinals. I’ve been in this game a long time, and I won’t disrespect anybody. Whatever happened last year, this is a new year. We’re trying to play baseball here, that’s all.”
- Francisco Cordero

"Basically, when you have a bunch of grown boys playing a game, you can have some tantrums exchanged. I think there's nothing more to it than that."
- Lance Berkman

So what do you think? Do we have a rivalry simmering between these two teams?

lonewolf371
05-16-2011, 04:47 PM
Really, events like those over the past year are what the greatest rivalries are built upon.

jhiller21
05-16-2011, 05:19 PM
I think more often than not it's perceived as a rivalry by the fans, not the players. These two teams certainly have some bad blood between them, but in the end they're just ballplayers doing their jobs.

jhiller21
05-16-2011, 05:24 PM
Also, if the player themselves are holding grudges, they aren't going to mention them to the press. Unless they're the Cards ;)

5TimeWSChamps
05-16-2011, 05:45 PM
It's absolutely a rivalry.

It's obvious the players don't like each other, the managers don't like each other, and the fans don't like each other.

not that hard to put the pieces together

Old NDN
05-16-2011, 05:53 PM
I like Berkman's answer. In the heat of the battle, people say and do some dumb things.

Razzle
05-16-2011, 06:13 PM
I'm not sure what'd I'd call it, but I love how it's played out on the field the past year and a half. Friday night's game had the feel of a playoff game to it. The other two games weren't as close, but I love the roller coaster ride of emotions I'm on in tight games between these two teams. I could do without the off the field jabs at each other as well as the on the field shenanigans, but I assume those are what have helped increase the intensity of the games as well.

Señor Rojo
05-16-2011, 07:51 PM
Personally, I think these two teams are one more event from cementing the series into a full fledged rivalry. I say this for a few reasons:

1. The Cubs have been the Cardinals traditional rivals. Yes, there's always room for more hatred in sports, but I don't think these two clubs have been through enough yet to cement the Reds as a full fledged rival of the Cardinals. This is because the Cubs and Cardinals have a history of hating each other, due in part to their fan bases.

2. There haven't been that many "signature" rivalry moments between the two clubs. Yes, the brawl was definitely a signature moment, but there needs to be more over several years in order to put a stamp on the rivalry. A rivalry does not develop over 1.25 seasons time. There needs to be some history to it. Another brawl or something equivalent could push the series into the rivalry category.

3. The series has not had playoff implications until the past season. Rivals need something on the line (other than bragging rights) every time they play each other. Rivalries are the best when postseasons are at stake. If the Reds continue their winning ways, the stakes will grow higher each time these two clubs meet.

We're close, but not to rivalry status yet.

Vottomatic
05-16-2011, 08:21 PM
Sorry, but this is one of those questions that didn't even need to be asked. It absolutely is a huge rivalry.

mlh1981
05-16-2011, 08:29 PM
We better enjoy this while we can, as free agency has a way of quickly ripping these things apart.

lonewolf371
05-17-2011, 11:09 AM
I think more often than not it's perceived as a rivalry by the fans, not the players. These two teams certainly have some bad blood between them, but in the end they're just ballplayers doing their jobs.
That's the case with most rivalries. Rivalries are always built by the fans and their responses to players' actions.

bounty37h
05-17-2011, 11:22 AM
We better enjoy this while we can, as free agency has a way of quickly ripping these things apart.

A true, heated rivalry will survive player changes over the years, its the team/fans that keep it going.

Señor Rojo
05-18-2011, 11:02 PM
A true, heated rivalry will survive player changes over the years, its the team/fans that keep it going.

Exactly. Will the animosity between the Cardinals and Reds continue say after Brandon Phillips or Chris Carpenter leave their respective teams?
The question boils down to whether the Reds have ticked off enough St. Louis fans to take notice of the Reds and whether the Reds fans will retain interest in their club in the future.

jwmann2
05-19-2011, 01:03 AM
They brought home a title in 2006. Until we do the same, they will not fear us as a team.

Vottomatic
05-19-2011, 07:42 AM
They brought home a title in 2006. Until we do the same, they will not fear us as a team.

I disagree. We have 2 players that were here in 2006. That stuff doesn't matter.

And their comments and whining are perfect examples of the Reds success getting under their skin.

PhillipsHead
05-19-2011, 07:56 AM
Perhaps we could weigh in on Brandon Phillips thoughts about whether he thinks this is a rivalry...

Defacto
05-19-2011, 09:25 AM
It can't be called a rivalry yet. Check back in five years to see if both the Reds and Cardinals are competing for first place.

The Reds just weren't that good from 2000-2009. If they had a few winning seasons then, I guess it would be considered a rivalry.

bounty37h
05-19-2011, 10:53 AM
It can't be called a rivalry yet. Check back in five years to see if both the Reds and Cardinals are competing for first place.

The Reds just weren't that good from 2000-2009. If they had a few winning seasons then, I guess it would be considered a rivalry.

I dont think you can consider wins as a real measuring stick for a rivalry-one -sidedness can heat up a rivalry as the loser wants to turn it around even more. For example, NC State hasnt won jack in decades now, but they are still considered a rival with UNC. And the Cubs havent won in a century but still consider St Loius a rival as well.

cw0802
05-19-2011, 01:09 PM
The same conversations were being had about the Astros from 2004 to 2007. Now nobody in St. Louis gives a second thought to Houston. Try to look at it from St. Louis' side. The Cardinals have been on top of the NL Central for the better part of 10 years. Each year another team comes knocking, Cubs, Brewers, Astros and as time has gone by, the constant has been the Cardinals on top. Now it's the Reds turn and a lot of our fans consider the Reds as just another johnny come lately, but honestly and in my opinion, your Reds are FAR different than any of those other teams and a far more legitimate threat to stick around for a long time. But let's be honest, had the brawl not happened last year, this conversation isn't happening. One fight does not a rivalry make. If the Reds and Cards are still battling for 1st place in the central 5, 10 years from now...then we'll talk rivalry. Not to put the Reds down, but they haven't been relevant long enough for anyone to consider them a true rivalry of the Cardinals. Right now, the Reds are a definite threat and it's two teams fighting tooth and nail for the NL central.

Defacto
05-19-2011, 02:52 PM
The same conversations were being had about the Astros from 2004 to 2007. Now nobody in St. Louis gives a second thought to Houston. Try to look at it from St. Louis' side. The Cardinals have been on top of the NL Central for the better part of 10 years. Each year another team comes knocking, Cubs, Brewers, Astros and as time has gone by, the constant has been the Cardinals on top. Now it's the Reds turn and a lot of our fans consider the Reds as just another johnny come lately, but honestly and in my opinion, your Reds are FAR different than any of those other teams and a far more legitimate threat to stick around for a long time. But let's be honest, had the brawl not happened last year, this conversation isn't happening. One fight does not a rivalry make. If the Reds and Cards are still battling for 1st place in the central 5, 10 years from now...then we'll talk rivalry. Not to put the Reds down, but they haven't been relevant long enough for anyone to consider them a true rivalry of the Cardinals. Right now, the Reds are a definite threat and it's two teams fighting tooth and nail for the NL central.

Whatever this is(I'm not going to call it a rivalry), it would still have some attitude considering LaRussa's relationship with Baker(though Baker showed some class and left LaRussa a voice mail when he had shingles).

Magdal
05-19-2011, 08:05 PM
For my money, the Reds and Cards are the TOP rivalry in all of baseball. No history as such, but I'm talking about NOW. Go look at the Cub and Cardinal fan forums: not a single thread on the other team.

Look at Reds/Cards forums....plenty of threads, reflecting the general fan base. That's the fans....what about the teams themselves? That goes w/o saying. They don't like each other.

I loved Marty having the balls to speak his mind. I can't wait 'till the next series.

10xWSChamps
05-19-2011, 10:58 PM
Of course it is. It's not Cards/Cubs or Yankees/Red Sox. It would take a long freaking time for it to get to that stage.

But our teams don't have to be rivals for over a hundred years for it to be a relevant and real rivalry.

How many times have our teams been on national TV together this season? Every year the Cards/Cubs games have what seems like half of the games as national TV games. The Cardinals and Reds games are going to be like that this season. In the St Louis series, weren't 2 of 3 on national TV? I don't mean to brag here but the Cardinals always get national TV games and it doesn't really seem like the Reds do. The fact that the Reds and Cardinals are getting national spots this season isn't a coincidence....


The same conversations were being had about the Astros from 2004 to 2007. Now nobody in St. Louis gives a second thought to Houston. Try to look at it from St. Louis' side.

This is absolutely true. Cardinals/Astros were a rivalry back then, just like the Reds and Cardinals are rivals right now. And in the beginning part of the last decade, the Cardinals and Cubs weren't friendly rivals like they are now because the Cubs were actually competeing with us for division titles. It's going to take an extended period of battling for it to be considered a rivalry in 10 or even 5 years time.

10xWSChamps
05-19-2011, 11:01 PM
For my money, the Reds and Cards are the TOP rivalry in all of baseball. No history as such, but I'm talking about NOW. Go look at the Cub and Cardinal fan forums: not a single thread on the other team.

Look at Reds/Cards forums....plenty of threads, reflecting the general fan base. That's the fans....what about the teams themselves? That goes w/o saying. They don't like each other.

I loved Marty having the balls to speak his mind. I can't wait 'till the next series.

Agreed, I think this the only non-friendly rivalry in baseball right now and that's what makes it the best at this point in time. Yankees/Red Sox and Cardinals/Cubs are friendly right now. They are fan-centric rivalries, not player-centric like the Reds and Cardinals are right now

cw0802
05-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Whatever this is(I'm not going to call it a rivalry), it would still have some attitude considering LaRussa's relationship with Baker(though Baker showed some class and left LaRussa a voice mail when he had shingles).

Agreed. Dusty is a good guy, and he and LaRussa are the best of friends. But, both are head strong, competitive guys who clash from time to time.