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View Full Version : Is it plausible for us to trade Hernandez this season?



The DARK
05-18-2011, 01:15 AM
So far in the Louisville game, Devin Mesoraco is 5 for 5, raising his average to .322. All scouting reports classify him as a natural leader, and he has no errors on the year. Clearly, this is our catcher of the future.

But this isn't the minor league forum. And what I'm wondering is if, given our current pitching situation, it's reasonable to trade somebody like Hernandez in the middle of the year. He's on a torrid run so far this season (though expected to regress to the mean), he plays a premium position, and he's got both a blocked, capable player behind him and a partner in excellence at the major league level. On paper, he's a perfect trade candidate for obtaining that TOR starter everyone here pines for, and promoting Mesoraco could give us the impact bat that cements our lineup as one of the best in baseball.

What I'm wondering, however, is if he's too important to the Reds to be traded. He's an experienced game-caller, and is essential for interfacing with our Latin American starters and keeping them comfortable on the mound. Both Volquez and Cueto have had confidence issues in the past... how would they deal with a replacement in the middle of the playoff race? And is it a good idea to trade away that veteran leadership as well? In the playoff series last year, the young Reds batters were totally exposed; only the vets had a decent series. You can't underestimate what he brings to this team, even if he doesn't play as regularly as other star catchers. What's more, Mesoraco is unproven in the major leagues, and if he has rookie struggles at the plate, the move could backfire immensely. I'm not saying a move is unfeasible, only very risky.

Thoughts?

Nathan
05-18-2011, 03:08 AM
I think you answered some of you question. I think he's too valuable to the team right now, especially for the Latin pitchers. I'm sure they (most of them) probably feel more comfortable with Ramon catching.

Also, you are NOT going to get too much for him, especially a TOR starter. Yes, he's on a pretty good pace right now, but, how long will that last?

Mes will be up before too long. I just don't think they should count on him for too much (if any) this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts with the Reds next year, and Hernandez is gone via free agency.

-I like the status quo right now.

jhiller21
05-18-2011, 03:54 AM
I think Hannigan handles the pitchers a bit better and has much better coverage behind the plate. Ramon is still a good catcher and handles the bat well with a better SLG %

Personally I like things the way they are

Reds
05-18-2011, 07:17 AM
I would only include him in a package trade near the deadline that includes us bringing back an elite starter.

Cant Touch This
05-18-2011, 09:20 AM
What a great "problem" to have, right? The Reds have more talent than they have space to accommodate it. That creates leverage in the form of bargaining chips.

To this specific idea, my thought is to leave things be for now. The Reds are riding a winning streak and the clubhouse is a happy place. Even if the Reds were able to acquire a TOR starter for Ramon (plus prospects, because Ramon alone wouldn't be enough) - I'm not sure I want to fiddle with the chemistry. If the Reds had a glaring need for starting pitching right now, then perhaps I'd change my tune. But with how well Cueto and Bailey have thrown the ball, either one of them could fill the role as our TOR starter this year. Or both.

There are other areas to possibly address (LF, SS) but again, unless there is a dire need, and right now there is not, I'd leave things alone.

Despite my stance on this, I am uber excited about the future with Mesoraco.

mikdavrut
05-18-2011, 10:16 AM
I bet the Red Sox wouldn't mind having Mony right now. I know they mentioned something on the ESPN Sun. night game (Rsox/Yankees) and one of the announcers asked one of the other announcers if he thought Boston could get through the yr. w/Saltalamacchia (or however you spell his name) and the announcer (it might have been Oral) said "I don't think so", so I wouldn't doubt they would LOVE to have someone like Ramon. Prob. several other teams that would love to have him as well.

But personally NO WAY do I want to see him traded away, not unless we just absolutely come out so far ahead on the deal that it just could not be passed up. The guy is helping our club immensely right now. Smoking hot bat and as was mentioned above, his being able to interact w/the latin pitchers is invaluable.

Like I said, it would simply have to be one HELL of a trade in our favor before I would personally be for it. His club-house presence/leadership of the team on top of his bat that's probably still smoldering a bit at this very moment he's been so freakin' hot as of late :laugh:

Sure, Mesoraco is prob. our future, but not this yr. This is another Ramon/Ryan, RH/RH yr.!

Tadasimha
05-18-2011, 10:22 AM
Not this season, no. Right now, the status quo at the catcher position has been great, just like last season. Look for a trade of one of the two current catchers in the off season and for Mesoraco to take their place in the bigs in 2012.

ntorvik
05-18-2011, 12:00 PM
If we trade Hernandez, I'm going to flip out. Why would you mess with a good thing? The chemistry on the team right now is awesome, things are going our way (7 unearned runs last night, are you kidding me?), and we should not mess with any aspect of our game. There has also been a lot of talk about what to do with Gomes around here, but I think that he also brings an invaluable aspect to our clubhouse that we just couldn't replace. Leave it alone and let's see where this takes us! If we start falling back, maybe we consider it, but not until we absolutely have to.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 12:26 PM
There are very few players on the Reds roster I would not be willing to deal and sorry Ramon is not part of that group. If the trade could upgrade the Reds then in a heartbeat I make the deal.

powersackers
05-18-2011, 01:00 PM
You recieve prospects in return for "hot" veterans. Not TOR starters. Hernandez will not be moved for a prospect. A wining team / playoff contenter won't move a valuable TOR for him. Are people suggesting we trade him for a Minor league or AAAA starter? That would hardly be a TOR guy. I don't understand the logic.

Captain13
05-18-2011, 01:16 PM
I think the suggestion is to trade him to make room for DM and to get something, instead of nothing (if he leaves as a free agent).

UCBrownsfan
05-18-2011, 01:18 PM
I personally would look to deal him near the deadline. We'd basically just have to play Mes/Hannigan for a month, before also bringing Miller in September. Obviously Hernandez himself wouldn't bring a TOR, but EV and Ramon Hernandez, and a few other prospects may. Though our 40 seems crowded and we have excellent starting pitching depth right now, we don't have many strong A/AA starters. It may not be bad to have Grandal move up to AAA by mid summer, though I'm not sure how often a catcher would go from A - AAA, but he does have a 916 OPS with 37 K and 27 BB

takealeake
05-18-2011, 01:26 PM
We're buyers, not sellers, and Razor is doing awesome - why trade him? Teams with big time players who are sellers want prospects, not older role players. He would only be good to trade in a fire sale, but like I said - we're WINNING now - trading him would be accomplishing nothing really, and only make us worse.

The DARK
05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
Also, is there a chance that with the season he's having, he'll be classified as a type A or B free agent? I'd love to see us pick up a supplemental pick for him.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 02:04 PM
To me a trade can't be ruled out, if Ramon say could be packaged with other reds players to upgrade say our LF situation or even our SS or 3rd situation you have to at least consider it. Saying you won't trade him is just plain poor baseball mang't.

Newport Red
05-18-2011, 02:16 PM
He's two days away from being a 35 year old catcher. I doubt he nets anything that improves the major league club.

I'm sure Mesoraco would be a centerpiece in any TOR trade talks.

mroby85
05-18-2011, 02:29 PM
To me a trade can't be ruled out, if Ramon say could be packaged with other reds players to upgrade say our LF situation or even our SS or 3rd situation you have to at least consider it. Saying you won't trade him is just plain poor baseball mang't.

I don't think it really makes sense to trade him unless you get an offer you don't want to turn down, obviously then you make the deal. However, just generally speaking I wouldn't be looking to trade him. While I like the tandem, I think the platoon makes them both more effective as opposed to playing full time, I also think Ramon is probably the better one of the two offensively.

5TimeWSChamps
05-18-2011, 02:30 PM
He's two days away from being a 35 year old catcher. I doubt he nets anything that improves the major league club.

I'm sure Mesoraco would be a centerpiece in any TOR trade talks.

Ding ding ding.

You want a TOR starter? Mesoraco or Grandal will be in the deal, not Ramon.

Ramon's not getting dealt

brm7675
05-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Ding ding ding.

You want a TOR starter? Mesoraco or Grandal will be in the deal, not Ramon.

Ramon's not getting dealt

The Reds need is not a TOR starter, it's a quality bat in either LF or such and a package including a good ML catcher could be done.

Girevik
05-18-2011, 03:31 PM
If you can upgrade the team for this year I wouldn't be opposed to trading him, but I agree with powersackers that Ramon isnt' the type of guy you're likely to get an esatablished player for him.

Whoever is in the market for a guy like Hernandez would also be in the race and looking to give up prospects and not effect thier current major league roster.

5TimeWSChamps
05-18-2011, 03:45 PM
The Reds need is not a TOR starter, it's a quality bat in either LF or such and a package including a good ML catcher could be done.

Umm, pretty sure the Reds lead the NL in runs this year and were near the top last year with the "trash" out in LF.

Whereas in the playoffs you saw what happened when you face TOR starting pitching.

The team's LAST worry is ANYTHING to do with offense.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Umm, pretty sure the Reds lead the NL in runs this year and were near the top last year with the "trash" out in LF.

Whereas in the playoffs you saw what happened when you face TOR starting pitching.

The team's LAST worry is ANYTHING to do with offense.

Lets review last years playoffs. Game 1 outside of horrible EV we shut down the Phils, game two our BP imploded and in game 3 final score was like 2-0 right? Our pitching wasn't the reason we lost in the playoffs, it was the lack of offense and our deer in the headlights attitude for the games. BTW how did that powerful Offense do in game 1 of the playoffs last season?

mckbearcat48
05-18-2011, 04:18 PM
Hernandez is a good catcher...you could get something useful for him...but do you want to? He seems to be hitting the ball hard recently.

5TimeWSChamps
05-18-2011, 04:32 PM
Once again...no one is giong to give up any sort of top prospect for a 35 year old catcher who will be a FA at the end of the year

DStew88
05-18-2011, 04:38 PM
With him performing the way he is right now, I'd like to say no. But, on the other hand, if we can get an elite starter near the deadline. I'd almost be tempted to say yes. You bring up an interesting point. All together, I say no, but definitely interesting.

bubbachunk
05-18-2011, 05:22 PM
As others have stated I would not trade him this year. Give Mes a September call up to show what he can do and give him every chance next spring. Ramon has just been so solid in his time here and the team is playing well with him. Dont fix something that aint broke.

Also someone mentioned the only way they trade him is for an Ace pitcher. Nobody who is going to be trading such a pitcher will want a catcher the age of Ramon coming back no matter how well he is playing. It may work however in a three team deal where a team like Boston gets Ramon and sends prospects to the third team so we can get the pitcher.

Vottomatic
05-18-2011, 06:17 PM
I hate to mess with the team chemistry. All these players like eachother alot and have eachother's backs. A trade of a key starter might have a negative impact and affect their psyche.

I'm as curious about seeing what Mesoraco can do in the majors too. But I think it needs to come during an injury to either Hanigan or Hernandez. Not at the expense of trading.

Mesoraco's time can come next year, if deserving.

mlh1981
05-18-2011, 06:37 PM
I'm a huge Hernandez fan, and I want him on the team for the stretch run. Him and Hanigan provide us with such a tremendous advantage at the catching position. It's certainly something you want to hold on to. Not for the longterm, but for right now, I feel like Hernandez gives us a good chance to win ballgames.

I remember them saying a few years ago he had a bad attitude in Baltimore. He has been nothing short of a consummate professional here.

The DARK
05-18-2011, 07:04 PM
I remember them saying a few years ago he had a bad attitude in Baltimore. He has been nothing short of a consummate professional here.

Experience and a good clubhouse atmosphere (we don't give Dusty enough credit for that) will do that. Sure, there are some guys who don't grow out of it, but we've seen it happen with Phillips, Arroyo, and Hernandez, who are all now true team leaders and professionals. And if I'm not mistaken, aren't they the currently the three longest-tenured Reds?

Nathan
05-18-2011, 11:35 PM
Experience and a good clubhouse atmosphere (we don't give Dusty enough credit for that) will do that. Sure, there are some guys who don't grow out of it, but we've seen it happen with Phillips, Arroyo, and Hernandez, who are all now true team leaders and professionals. And if I'm not mistaken, aren't they the currently the three longest-tenured Reds?

There are a handful of players that have been with the Reds longer than Hernandez. He came over in the 08-09 offseason.

The DARK
05-19-2011, 02:04 AM
There are a handful of players that have been with the Reds longer than Hernandez. He came over in the 08-09 offseason.

I gotcha. But I suppose Brandon and Bronson are the longest, then? I can't think of anyone on the pitching staff or in the lineup who's been here longer, and the bench is a revolving door.

Nathan
05-19-2011, 02:43 AM
I gotcha. But I suppose Brandon and Bronson are the longest, then? I can't think of anyone on the pitching staff or in the lineup who's been here longer, and the bench is a revolving door.

Yep. 3rd place btw is Bray. Arroyo, Phillips and Bray made their Reds debut in 2006.

Sorry.. Back to the subject...

jewelryab
05-19-2011, 06:50 AM
If after so many season that Angelopoulos pay him to eat like a fag and the scrapes on slimming centers in Switzerland does ask horns because he made a season bearable ungrateful at best, at worst ...

Vottomatic
05-19-2011, 07:53 AM
Yep. 3rd place btw is Bray. Arroyo, Phillips and Bray made their Reds debut in 2006.

Sorry.. Back to the subject...

Cordero is finishing up a 4 year contract. So he's got longevity too.

Vottomatic
05-19-2011, 08:26 AM
Players who were drafted and developed by Reds denoted with an *. Includes foreign players like Chapman who were signed.

Arroyo = 2006 - acquired for Willy Mo Pena.
Phillips = 2006 - acquired for Jeff Stevens.
Bray = 2006 - acquired in the middle of the season in Kearns deal.
*Bailey = 2007 - started 9 games that season.
*Votto = 2008 - did play in 24 games late in 2007.
*Hanigan = 2008 - did play in 5 games in 2007 though.
Cordero = 2008 - free agent signing.
*Cueto = 2008 - started 31 games that season.
Volquez = 2008 - acquired in Josh Hamilton trade.
*Janish = 2008
*Bruce = 2008
Burton = 2008 - acquired via rule 5 draft.
Masset = 2008 - acquired in the KGJ trade middle of season.
Hernandez = 2009 - acquired in offseason for Ryan Freel.
Gomes = 2009
*Stubbs = 2009
Rolen = 2009 - acquired via trade for EE and Zach Stewart middle of season.
*Leake = 2010
*Lecure = 2010
*Ondrusek = 2010
*Jordan Smith = 2010
*Wood = 2010
Cairo = 2010
*Heisey = 2010
*Chapman = 2010
Renteria = 2011
Arredondo = 2011
Lewis = 2011

bounty37h
05-19-2011, 12:41 PM
Not this season, no. Right now, the status quo at the catcher position has been great, just like last season. Look for a trade of one of the two current catchers in the off season and for Mesoraco to take their place in the bigs in 2012.

I ?think? Raomon is only on one year contract, so if we dont trade him during season he wil be free agent at season end? I am too torn on this to answer, if such a great deal cant pass up, sure, jump on it, but if not, I am happy to have him too. Great spot to be in!

bounty37h
05-19-2011, 12:53 PM
To me a trade can't be ruled out, if Ramon say could be packaged with other reds players to upgrade say our LF situation or even our SS or 3rd situation you have to at least consider it. Saying you won't trade him is just plain poor baseball mang't.

I agree with you on this one, we are in a great spot where we dont have to trade him just to trade him. If we can improve the team, do it. We have a decent surplus of catchers right now with him, Hanny and Mes on the brink. If we can improve the team by including him in a deal, you have to look at it, otherwise, if it doesn't make us better, we stick with one heck of a tandom behind the dish.

bounty37h
05-19-2011, 01:19 PM
If after so many season that Angelopoulos pay him to eat like a fag and the scrapes on slimming centers in Switzerland does ask horns because he made a season bearable ungrateful at best, at worst ...

English says what? I dont even know where to start to make sense of whatever this was supposed to be...

Nathan
05-20-2011, 02:25 AM
Players who were drafted and developed by Reds denoted with an *. Includes foreign players like Chapman who were signed.

Arroyo = 2006 - acquired for Willy Mo Pena.
Phillips = 2006 - acquired for Jeff Stevens.
Bray = 2006 - acquired in the middle of the season in Kearns deal.
*Bailey = 2007 - started 9 games that season.
*Votto = 2008 - did play in 24 games late in 2007.
*Hanigan = 2008 - did play in 5 games in 2007 though.
Cordero = 2008 - free agent signing.
*Cueto = 2008 - started 31 games that season.
Volquez = 2008 - acquired in Josh Hamilton trade.
*Janish = 2008
*Bruce = 2008
Burton = 2008 - acquired via rule 5 draft.
Masset = 2008 - acquired in the KGJ trade middle of season.
Hernandez = 2009 - acquired in offseason for Ryan Freel.
Gomes = 2009
*Stubbs = 2009
Rolen = 2009 - acquired via trade for EE and Zach Stewart middle of season.
*Leake = 2010
*Lecure = 2010
*Ondrusek = 2010
*Jordan Smith = 2010
*Wood = 2010
Cairo = 2010
*Heisey = 2010
*Chapman = 2010
Renteria = 2011
Arredondo = 2011
Lewis = 2011

LOL.. I actually had this wrote out yesterday, but felt too lazy to type it out.

Nathan
05-20-2011, 02:29 AM
oops

RedRedhawk
05-21-2011, 02:24 AM
It we trade a catcher my vote is Hanigan. Because Of his contract and age i think he would net more then Ramon. I think it would be great to have ramon around next year to continue to mentor the spanish speaking pitchers. However keeping him around a year to mentor Mes would be worth millions imo. After next year we can let Ramon walk or come back who knows, but grandal should be ready. I think Hanigan has more value in a trade then he does on our roster, and his value may never be higher.

Vottomatic
05-21-2011, 05:02 AM
If after so many season that Angelopoulos pay him to eat like a fag and the scrapes on slimming centers in Switzerland does ask horns because he made a season bearable ungrateful at best, at worst ...

I think I speak for all of us when I say, if you need an AA sponsor, we're available. :D