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View Full Version : Last night's umpiring crew



brm7675
05-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Was a joke. How in the heck do you allow Ramon to walk towards the dugout and then jog down to first? Come on guys this is basic baseball and you blew it.

Girevik
05-18-2011, 11:29 AM
How should the umpires have handled the situation? It's not their job to tell Hernandez to run to first. Are you saying he should have called him out as soon as he started twoards the dugout?

brm7675
05-18-2011, 11:30 AM
How should the umpires have handled the situation? It's not their job to tell Hernandez to run to first. Are you saying he should have called him out as soon as he started twoards the dugout?

As soon as Ramon leaves the dirt and is on the grass heading towards the dugout he is out, that is the rule, as soon as he did that the umpire should have signaled "out".

Girevik
05-18-2011, 11:34 AM
I'd have to see the rule to know, but if that's the case the Cubs could have, and should have protested the game. I didn't see anyone on the Chicago side arguing that point.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 11:55 AM
I'd have to see the rule to know, but if that's the case the Cubs could have, and should have protested the game. I didn't see anyone on the Chicago side arguing that point.

The rule is once the batter/runner commits to the dugout they are giving themselves up basically. It is only at that point can the umpire call them out. It's a rule that is not black and white because you have to as the umpire determine the intent of the hitter/runner. In last night's case Ramon was on the grass and closer to the dugout then the basepath and thus was "out".

Stray
05-18-2011, 12:14 PM
I heard last night that a runner is allowed to establish his line on the way to first as long as it's on the playing field and not obstructing the team trying to get him out. Something weird like that. They said he could have went right up beside the dugout and it would have been okay.

swaisuc
05-18-2011, 12:15 PM
They were awful at multiple points last night. The two main screwups were related to the home plate umpire seemingly making no call. Maybe that is what he is supposed to do on the Cairo/Ramon play, but he seemingly just sat there calling nothing either way until the Reds started running the bases. Is there no signal for the catcher dropping the 3rd strike? At that point Cairo should've been called out for sure as he was nearly all the way to the dugout when he started running..

Just as bad of a call was in the 1st inning on Castro's K. The count was 3-2. The runner went and the pitch was on the corner. The ump doesn't ring up the batter (or make any signal that I could see) and then the Reds didn't bother to tag the stealing runner thinking it was a walk. The ump apparently said strike 3 because Castro was out and they gave the runner a steal.

The Cubs did argue this call you are talking about right after it happened BTW.

swaisuc
05-18-2011, 12:16 PM
I heard last night that a runner is allowed to establish his line on the way to first as long as it's on the playing field and not obstructing the team trying to get him out. Something weird like that. They said he could have went right up beside the dugout and it would have been okay.

I think there is a difference between a normal run to 1st and this scenerio where he is advancing on a strike 3.

Stray
05-18-2011, 12:18 PM
I think there is a difference between a normal run to 1st and this scenerio where he is advancing on a strike 3.

Yeah probably, to be honest I'm not sure how the rule works. I think it was on Baseball Tonight that I heard that...they were saying that he was totally fine within the rules on that play and it wasn't considered leaving the basepaths.

Captain13
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
The signal for a dropped third strike is a strike call (without the your-out until a tag has been applied.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 01:06 PM
They were awful at multiple points last night. The two main screwups were related to the home plate umpire seemingly making no call. Maybe that is what he is supposed to do on the Cairo/Ramon play, but he seemingly just sat there calling nothing either way until the Reds started running the bases. Is there no signal for the catcher dropping the 3rd strike? At that point Cairo should've been called out for sure as he was nearly all the way to the dugout when he started running..

Just as bad of a call was in the 1st inning on Castro's K. The count was 3-2. The runner went and the pitch was on the corner. The ump doesn't ring up the batter (or make any signal that I could see) and then the Reds didn't bother to tag the stealing runner thinking it was a walk. The ump apparently said strike 3 because Castro was out and they gave the runner a steal.

The Cubs did argue this call you are talking about right after it happened BTW.


In the issue with Ramon, all the home plate umpire can do is call a 3rd strike, he can not signal an out till an out has occured and until Ramon was either tagged, or thrown out at first or the runner at first thrown out at second, no umpire can signal an out. Now once Ramon made no attempt to run to first and in fact was heading to home then the umpire should have signaled 'out' and that is where they blew it.

Girevik
05-18-2011, 02:24 PM
That doesn't sound right to me. I'd have to see a rule that says not making an attempt to run means you're out.

DStew88
05-18-2011, 02:37 PM
When a hitter starts toward the dugout, it's a forfeited at-bat. I hate to say it, but Cairo was out.

Brisco
05-18-2011, 02:45 PM
Was a joke. How in the heck do you allow Ramon to walk towards the dugout and then jog down to first? Come on guys this is basic baseball and you blew it.

I do not have the rule book memorized, but given the constant debate over this, I am certain that this is not "basic baseball".

I also believe that if the rule was clear, the Cubs probably have one or two folks on the payroll that could cite it chapter and verse. Further, in the modern media cycle, every announcer and their brother would be citing that rule in broadcasts today.

My guess is that the reason they are not is because it is not clear cut.

Girevik
05-18-2011, 02:50 PM
I agree, if this were an obvious thing then not only the Cubs but the national media would be all over it.

signalhome
05-18-2011, 04:42 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2010/official_rules/2010_OfficialBaseballRules.pdf


7.08 Any runner is out when—
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or
(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.

Hernandez should have been declared out once he walked past first into foul territory without his foot touching the bag, I believe. It was obvious he was abandoning his effort to run the bases.


6.09 The batter becomes a runner when—
(a) He hits a fair ball;
(b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is
unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out;
Rule 6.09(b) Comment: A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate.

Cairo left the dirt circle after the called third strike. He should have been declared out. The umpires botched this play badly.

Edit: If I am misinterpreting the rules in any way, let me know. I could be mistaken about Hernandez being ruled out, but I think the ruling for Cairo is pretty cut and dry, and the umpires just missed it.

brm7675
05-18-2011, 05:05 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2010/official_rules/2010_OfficialBaseballRules.pdf



Hernandez should have been declared out once he walked past first into foul territory without his foot touching the bag, I believe. It was obvious he was abandoning his effort to run the bases.



Cairo left the dirt circle after the called third strike. He should have been declared out. The umpires botched this play badly.

Edit: If I am misinterpreting the rules in any way, let me know. I could be mistaken about Hernandez being ruled out, but I think the ruling for Cairo is pretty cut and dry, and the umpires just missed it.

What I can't figure out is how they missed it. It's a clear rule on all level's of baseball. I could see if he was like on part dirt, part grass, but it wasn't even close. And then for the Cubs manager to not argue it with any desire just shows you how bad the Cubs are right now. The Cubs got lucky and Stubbs struck out, but to allow such a blatent call to go is unaccecptable.

signalhome
05-18-2011, 10:35 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/baseball-oddity-files-cubs-bungle-dropped-third-strike/

Fangraphs article regarding the play. Jack Moore mistakenly says the umpires made the correct call, citing Rule 7.08. However, an update has been added to the article, with Moore admitting he had overlooked Rule 6.09(b), which clearly states Cairo should have been out.