PDA

View Full Version : The mighty Dusty has spoken...



brm7675
05-19-2011, 01:11 PM
From Mark Sheldon...

“Everybody was screaming for Nix to play before. They were screaming for Dickerson to play and then they screamed for Gomes, how come Gomes isn’t playing every day? Then they were screaming about sending Stubbs out of here and they were screaming about sending Bruce out of here.”
“Every good basketball team has a sixth man. John Havlicek was a sixth man before he was a regular. He still has some things to learn – to me – hitting wise before he’s an everyday play, but he will be. He knows it. I told him. Sometimes you have to be that sixth man before you can be a fifth man.”

Just reading that shows me this man is stuck in a time warp...If I Chris H. I would just punch Dusty in the mouth...

Vottomatic
05-19-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't want Heisey to be a 5th man. I want him to be the 3rd man.

What's hypocritical about Dusty is that Stubbs and Bruce were inserted in the lineup and got a long leash. Heisey hasn't gotten that same treatment at all.

If he crashes and burns, I can live with it. Bruce and Stubbs have crashed and burned at times. But for some reason, they're allowed to learn on the job, struggle, learn pitchers, get better, etc. Why not the same for Heisey?

Those Dusty comments don't mesh with the preferential treatment others have gotten. I guess if you're a former #1 draft pick, you get special treatment.

brm7675
05-19-2011, 02:36 PM
I believe if all was known, Dusty wasn't given much options with either Bruce or Stubbs, I think mag't pretty much told him to play him, meanwhile even Mag't has a strong backing of Gomes (why else was he resigned) which allows Dusty to play him more over Heisey.

5TimeWSChamps
05-19-2011, 02:44 PM
I believe if all was known, Dusty wasn't given much options with either Bruce or Stubbs, I think mag't pretty much told him to play him, meanwhile even Mag't has a strong backing of Gomes (why else was he resigned) which allows Dusty to play him more over Heisey.

He was resigned because you can't just pick up guys that drive in 85 runs a year for $750k like we did very often. Based on his production last year, he could hit .100 with 0 hr's and 0 rbi's and still be worth what he will be piad.

brm7675
05-19-2011, 03:21 PM
He was resigned because you can't just pick up guys that drive in 85 runs a year for $750k like we did very often. Based on his production last year, he could hit .100 with 0 hr's and 0 rbi's and still be worth what he will be piad.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

5TimeWSChamps
05-19-2011, 05:02 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

The following NL Players drove in more runs than Jonny Gomes last year (2010 Salary in Parenthesis)

Albert Pujols - ($14.6 Mil)
Carlos Gonzalez - ($406,000, signed 7 year, $80 mil ext during offseason)*
Joey Votto - ($525,000, signed 3 year, $38 mil ext during offseason)*
Ryan Howard - ($19 Mil)
Dan Uggla - ($7.8 Mil)
Casey McGehee - ($427,500)*
Adam Dunn - ($12 Mil)
Matt Holliday - ($16.3 Mil)
Ryan Braun - ($1.287 Mil, Signed 5 Year, $105 Mil Ext in offseason)
Corey Hart - ($4.8 Mil)
Adrian Gonzalez - ($4.8 Mil, signed 7 Year, $154 mil ext in offseason)
Adam LaRoche - ($4.5 Mil)
Troy Tulowitzki - ($3.5 Mil, signed 6 year, $118 mil ext in offseason)
Chris Young - ($3.45 Mil)
Hunter Pence - ($3.5 Mil)
Carlos Lee - ($19 Mil)
Matt Kemp - ($4 Mil)
James Loney - ($3.1 Mil)

So Jonny Gomes made $800,000 last year, the only guys that made less were still under team control and re-upped with massive extensions right after the offseason.

Like I said, for $800,000, you cannot argue his productivity that he gave them last year

brm7675
05-19-2011, 05:07 PM
The following NL Players drove in more runs than Jonny Gomes last year (2010 Salary in Parenthesis)

Albert Pujols - ($14.6 Mil)
Carlos Gonzalez - ($406,000, signed 7 year, $80 mil ext during offseason)*
Joey Votto - ($525,000, signed 3 year, $38 mil ext during offseason)*
Ryan Howard - ($19 Mil)
Dan Uggla - ($7.8 Mil)
Casey McGehee - ($427,500)*
Adam Dunn - ($12 Mil)
Matt Holliday - ($16.3 Mil)
Ryan Braun - ($1.287 Mil, Signed 5 Year, $105 Mil Ext in offseason)
Corey Hart - ($4.8 Mil)
Adrian Gonzalez - ($4.8 Mil, signed 7 Year, $154 mil ext in offseason)
Adam LaRoche - ($4.5 Mil)
Troy Tulowitzki - ($3.5 Mil, signed 6 year, $118 mil ext in offseason)
Chris Young - ($3.45 Mil)
Hunter Pence - ($3.5 Mil)
Carlos Lee - ($19 Mil)
Matt Kemp - ($4 Mil)
James Loney - ($3.1 Mil)

So Jonny Gomes made $800,000 last year, the only guys that made less were still under team control and re-upped with massive extensions right after the offseason.

Like I said, for $800,000, you cannot argue his productivity that he gave them last year

A) That production came in about 30-40% of the games, the other 60-70% he did nothing.
B) We don't know what Heisey could have done been given the chance?
C) How many runs did he cost us with his horrible Defense?

Old NDN
05-19-2011, 05:15 PM
Gomes was signed to produce offensively. Sometimes you catch lightning in the bottle, and sometimes you get what you paid for. If this is all you get for 750,000, the Reds need to pony up for something a little more consistent. Time to quit shoppping in the bargain basement. It's not paying off. If management feels Heisey, Lewis, etc aren't the answer, then go get this team some help. They're hanging in there, but for how long?

MBZags
05-19-2011, 05:22 PM
A) That production came in about 30-40% of the games, the other 60-70% he did nothing.
B) We don't know what Heisey could have done been given the chance?
C) How many runs did he cost us with his horrible Defense?

Not to mention RBI mean squat when measuring a player's offensive ability.

brm7675
05-19-2011, 05:25 PM
Gomes was signed to produce offensively. Sometimes you catch lightning in the bottle, and sometimes you get what you paid for. If this is all you get for 750,000, the Reds need to pony up for something a little more consistent. Time to quit shoppping in the bargain basement. It's not paying off. If management feels Heisey, Lewis, etc aren't the answer, then go get this team some help. They're hanging in there, but for how long?

My belief is that both Walt and Dusty feel deep down in their bones that Gomes will reproduce his first few months of 2010 at some point this season. Also you have to look out there and wonder what power hitting good defensive LF is out there to go get and I really don't see any.

5TimeWSChamps
05-19-2011, 05:44 PM
Gomes was signed to produce offensively. Sometimes you catch lightning in the bottle, and sometimes you get what you paid for. If this is all you get for 750,000, the Reds need to pony up for something a little more consistent. Time to quit shoppping in the bargain basement. It's not paying off. If management feels Heisey, Lewis, etc aren't the answer, then go get this team some help. They're hanging in there, but for how long?

Then people need to start going to games. I'm surprised Castellini hasn't looked into creating a TV network like the Indians have with Sports Time Ohio in order to maximize potential revenue. Unfortunately when you are 12th/16th in the league in attendance, your payroll is going to reflect it.

Bob isn't going to invest in something where he's going to lose money

brm7675
05-19-2011, 06:14 PM
Bob isn't going to invest in something where he's going to lose money

But he is not losing money, no team in baseball is losing money.

texasdave
05-19-2011, 07:36 PM
From Mark Sheldon...

“Everybody was screaming for Nix to play before. They were screaming for Dickerson to play and then they screamed for Gomes, how come Gomes isn’t playing every day? Then they were screaming about sending Stubbs out of here and they were screaming about sending Bruce out of here.”
“Every good basketball team has a sixth man. John Havlicek was a sixth man before he was a regular. He still has some things to learn – to me – hitting wise before he’s an everyday play, but he will be. He knows it. I told him. Sometimes you have to be that sixth man before you can be a fifth man.”

Just reading that shows me this man is stuck in a time warp...If I Chris H. I would just punch Dusty in the mouth...

Let's see now. Heisey runs better than Gomes. Fields better. Throws better. Hits better. What exactly else is there? Seems to me as if Gomes should be the 6th man polishing his skills.

Since the start of 2010:

Heisey's line - .258/.328/.450/.778
Gomes' line - .250/.326/.425/.751

Heisey has better numbers across the board. Gomes' strong point is supposed to be his power and Heisey has a higher Slugging Percentage.

Heisey has 12 HR in 294 PA. Or a home run every 24.5 PA.
Gomes has 25 HR in 718 PA. Or a home run every 28.7 PA.

If you believe in WAR here are your numbers.

Gomes .4 WAR in 718 PA.
Heisey 1.9 WAR in 294 PA.

If Heisey continued to play at the same level he would have 4.6 WAR.

Dusty's reasoning that Heisey still has things to learn and then sending Jonny Gomes out to left field is an insult to Reds' fans.

BluegrassRedleg
05-19-2011, 07:44 PM
I like Dusty, but he frustrates me on stuff like this. I wish that list of guys he cited in the "screaming for" reference included who the guy that was playing regularly was. A lot of times, it was someone TOTALLY unproductive. I mean, my goodness, how long did it take to get Willy F. Tavares out of the lineup? That guy got 100+ games with a BA and OBP that were nearly identical (and both poor).

Gomes is a total liability to this team right now. There's no reason whatsoever that Heisey shouldn't be seeing regular action and Gomes doing the pinch-hit/spot duty role.

There's being loyal to guys, and there's being stubborn. It sounds to me like Dusty's trying to prove he's in charge. Again, I like the guy. I'm glad he's our manager. I prefer winning above what we were most of the last 20 years. But I do believe he's being thick-headed on this matter.

DocRed
05-20-2011, 10:25 PM
Dusty is an idiot....

big boy
05-20-2011, 10:52 PM
Could it be that the Reds want Gomes to get going so they can trade him?

AintlifeGrande
05-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Could it be that the Reds want Gomes to get going so they can trade him?

Trade for what,a bag of baseball's?

nux fan
05-21-2011, 12:42 AM
not only does the idiot play gomes but he bats him in front of the best hitter, baker is so dense that the thesauraus has no word for him

jwmann2
05-21-2011, 01:05 AM
The manager is always given unsolicited advice. We are in first and until that starts to drastically change, why mess with what we have goin? Dusty knows more than you and I and I certainly believe Heisey is a great player.

nux fan
05-21-2011, 09:39 AM
I dont think the reds are in first unless you have different standings in your paper

Vottomatic
05-21-2011, 09:55 AM
I dont think the reds are in first unless you have different standings in your paper

He's reading last year's paper. :D

Old NDN
05-23-2011, 03:44 PM
Gomes is not the only problem... just the most glaring one. The Reds have a bottomless pit at SS. Janish is who we thought he was. Good field, no stick. His outs can usually be caught barehanded. On a better offensive team, not so noticeable. Batting him 2nd is idiocy. Lack of a solid leadoff man is still a deficiency. If this organization is as deep as they claim, it's time to start interchanging some parts.

Vottomatic
05-23-2011, 04:03 PM
Dusty's lineups have always been:

Leadoff: CFer
Batting 2nd: SS
:D

brm7675
05-23-2011, 04:12 PM
Gomes is not the only problem... just the most glaring one. The Reds have a bottomless pit at SS. Janish is who we thought he was. Good field, no stick. His outs can usually be caught barehanded. On a better offensive team, not so noticeable. Batting him 2nd is idiocy. Lack of a solid leadoff man is still a deficiency. If this organization is as deep as they claim, it's time to start interchanging some parts.

Yes Janish is what we thought he was...well kinda because anyone who thought or thinks he is a 2 slot hitter is an idiot (hint/hint) and if he was in the 8 spot where he should be there would be very little issue. As for leadoff Stubbs is doing more then enough in that position. Our problem is hitting a non hitter in the 2 spot and hitting a non hitter/horrible fielder in the 5 spot, not using good matchups when you can, not knowing or understanding how to handle a pitching staff and allowing "non team players" to remain on the roster. Correct those flaws and things are much better...:thumbup:

malcontent
05-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Dusty's lineups have always been:

Leadoff: CFer
Batting 2nd: SS
:D
Absurd, but that's the reality.

As such, it's always been Walt's responsibility to Dusty-proof the roster.

And that includes finding a decent #2 hitter (SS).

brm7675
05-23-2011, 04:30 PM
Absurd, but that's the reality.

As such, it's always been Walt's responsibility to Dusty-proof the roster.

And that includes finding a decent #2 hitter (SS).

NO, Walt has provided Dusty with the talent, it's time for Walt to grow an pair and remind Dusty WHOM the boss is..

Old NDN
05-23-2011, 07:36 PM
Well. I applaud management making a few moves. It may not be what many of us were hoping for, but it's at least a start. If this free fall continues, I would expect more changes. BTW, guess who's hitting in the 2 hole tonight? Yep, soft J.

brm7675
05-23-2011, 07:45 PM
Well. I applaud management making a few moves. It may not be what many of us were hoping for, but it's at least a start. If this free fall continues, I would expect more changes. BTW, guess who's hitting in the 2 hole tonight? Yep, soft J.

And whose fault is that? Why isn't the manager being held accountable for incredible mismanagement of talent?

brm7675
05-23-2011, 07:47 PM
Well. I applaud management making a few moves. It may not be what many of us were hoping for, but it's at least a start. If this free fall continues, I would expect more changes. BTW, guess who's hitting in the 2 hole tonight? Yep, soft J.

I don't, those "moves" you speak of were nothing. Sending Smith down is no big deal. As for EV, he made his bed with his comments yesterday. i want to see a front office seeing that change and such need to happen and getting it done. There is no logical reason either Gomes or Edgar are still on this roster. Neither of them bring anything to the team that other younger better and cheaper players already in the organization can't bring. Also when is leadership going to be held accountable? This team is playing so far under it's ability it's not funny. Well I wonder how our owner will like watching the playoffs this season without the Reds in it....

Old NDN
05-24-2011, 04:04 PM
I'm beginning to think they are not playing under their ablity. Rather, they over-achieved last year. This team hasn't beaten anybody that you would consider a top team (other than SL?) all year. We can blame Gomes, Janish, Volquez/pitching, or Dusty all we want. The fact is, this team is full of holes and better improve quickly, or it's gonna be a long summer.

lonewolf371
05-24-2011, 04:11 PM
Let's see now. Heisey runs better than Gomes. Fields better. Throws better. Hits better. What exactly else is there? Seems to me as if Gomes should be the 6th man polishing his skills.

Since the start of 2010:

Heisey's line - .258/.328/.450/.778
Gomes' line - .250/.326/.425/.751

Heisey has better numbers across the board. Gomes' strong point is supposed to be his power and Heisey has a higher Slugging Percentage.

Heisey has 12 HR in 294 PA. Or a home run every 24.5 PA.
Gomes has 25 HR in 718 PA. Or a home run every 28.7 PA.

If you believe in WAR here are your numbers.

Gomes .4 WAR in 718 PA.
Heisey 1.9 WAR in 294 PA.

If Heisey continued to play at the same level he would have 4.6 WAR.

Dusty's reasoning that Heisey still has things to learn and then sending Jonny Gomes out to left field is an insult to Reds' fans.
I'd say those stats don't definitively favor either player. In fact, it makes them look almost exactly the same offensively.

As for platoon vs. full time, they don't require the same approach. Guys that play great in a platoon don't necessarily play so well full time. There may be certain things in Heisey's approach and swing that Dusty would like him to develop on before he starts running him out there full time.

texasdave
05-24-2011, 09:40 PM
I'd say those stats don't definitively favor either player. In fact, it makes them look almost exactly the same offensively.

As for platoon vs. full time, they don't require the same approach. Guys that play great in a platoon don't necessarily play so well full time. There may be certain things in Heisey's approach and swing that Dusty would like him to develop on before he starts running him out there full time.

If things like running, throwing, defense etc. didn't matter you would be correct. They would be the same player. However, those things matter - a lot.
Toss onto the pile that Gomes is 30 and isn't likely to improve while Heisey is still a couple of years from when he should be peaking and I think the choice is pretty clear who should be getting the playing time.
How does Heisey improve if he doesn't get onto the field?

lonewolf371
05-24-2011, 10:07 PM
If things like running, throwing, defense etc. didn't matter you would be correct. They would be the same player. However, those things matter - a lot.
Toss onto the pile that Gomes is 30 and isn't likely to improve while Heisey is still a couple of years from when he should be peaking and I think the choice is pretty clear who should be getting the playing time.
How does Heisey improve if he doesn't get onto the field?
Well Heisey can improve his approach at the plate during pinch hitting without being in the field.

As for Gomes, he is poor defensively. I don't know how good Heisey is, but he might be better than Gomes. However, so far this year, Gomes has been solid. His UZR is positive. But I agree, that would be the main reason for moving him out. Heisey should probably be playing more consistently, especially if he keeps up his performance at the plate and improves over Gomes in the field.

BAKER12
05-25-2011, 02:16 AM
In my opinion, the Reds do not have a legit everyday LF.....
Heisey is the guy people are obsessed with, as some said the backup QB syndrome....
It might be possible that Dusty and Walt know this team better than the people that post on message boards?

CrosleyField
05-25-2011, 09:23 AM
In my opinion, the Reds do not have a legit everyday LF.....
Heisey is the guy people are obsessed with, as some said the backup QB syndrome....
It might be possible that Dusty and Walt know this team better than the people that post on message boards?

Ditto, Although I think Hi-C will get more playing time as the season goes on.

lonewolf371
05-25-2011, 10:43 AM
In my opinion, the Reds do not have a legit everyday LF.....
Heisey is the guy people are obsessed with, as some said the backup QB syndrome....
It might be possible that Dusty and Walt know this team better than the people that post on message boards?
Sure, but the main thing is there might be a player on the roster right now that's a better fit than Gomes.

And really, .258/.328/.450 isn't bad offensive production. It's about average.

Stray
05-25-2011, 11:00 AM
So Dusty says something that is totally accurate and this is somehow spun into a bad thing?

Heisey is probably our best option out there, but there is no good option IMO. We are getting absolutely nothing offensively from whoever is starting in LF or at SS. Without knowing the stats, Heisey seems to be so much more productive off of the bench and Gomes will swing at any breaking ball within 10 feet of the plate. Lewis has had nice moments but really hasn't done anything in his starts either so I dunno.

Then you have Janish who is an auto out and Renteria who isn't far behind. A team can deal with a guy or two going through a slump, but not really 2 entire positions. For our sake I hope some guys bust out of it and make the decision for the team.

Chris Sabowned
05-25-2011, 11:10 AM
So Dusty says something that is totally accurate and this is somehow spun into a bad thing?

Heisey is probably our best option out there, but there is no good option IMO. We are getting absolutely nothing offensively from whoever is starting in LF or at SS. Without knowing the stats, Heisey seems to be so much more productive off of the bench and Gomes will swing at any breaking ball within 10 feet of the plate. Lewis has had nice moments but really hasn't done anything in his starts either so I dunno.

Then you have Janish who is an auto out and Renteria who isn't far behind. A team can deal with a guy or two going through a slump, but not really 2 entire positions. For our sake I hope some guys bust out of it and make the decision for the team.

The difference between Gomes slumping and Janish slumping is that when Janish slumps he still gives you a GG calibur SS. Gomes is a terrible defender so when he slumps he has no worth.

Stray
05-25-2011, 11:18 AM
The difference between Gomes slumping and Janish slumping is that when Janish slumps he still gives you a GG calibur SS. Gomes is a terrible defender so when he slumps he has no worth.

Maybe, but you need to be able to give some sort of production offensively. He's essentially a pitcher at the plate.

And I'm not knocking his defense, he's easily the best defensive player we have at that position, but it isn't GG caliber. He's better than average.

lonewolf371
05-25-2011, 11:26 AM
Maybe, but you need to be able to give some sort of production offensively. He's essentially a pitcher at the plate.

And I'm not knocking his defense, he's easily the best defensive player we have at that position, but it isn't GG caliber. He's better than average.
At SS in the NL, who's better? Right now, Janish has the highest UZR in MLB.

Stray
05-25-2011, 11:46 AM
At SS in the NL, who's better? Right now, Janish has the highest UZR in MLB.

Janish isn't gonna win a GG against Tulo. I realize Janish's UZR is outstanding, but the eyeball test tells me he's made a lot of errors in a semi-fulltime role.

Not even the point I was making though, at some point we have to decide if his glove is worth having his bat in the lineup. Lance mentioned that maybe it's time to take a flyer on Cozart...I can't say I would be upset with that.

5TimeWSChamps
05-25-2011, 01:57 PM
Janish isn't gonna win a GG against Tulo. I realize Janish's UZR is outstanding, but the eyeball test tells me he's made a lot of errors in a semi-fulltime role.

Not even the point I was making though, at some point we have to decide if his glove is worth having his bat in the lineup. Lance mentioned that maybe it's time to take a flyer on Cozart...I can't say I would be upset with that.

The fact is, if the Reds would get ANY sort of production at LF, then Janish would be fine, it's when 25% of your lineup are auto-outs that the problems get magnified.

Janish's defense warrants him playing everyday moreso than Gomes/Heisey right now. If they are going to make a move for someone, it should be a LF

Stray
05-25-2011, 02:37 PM
The fact is, if the Reds would get ANY sort of production at LF, then Janish would be fine, it's when 25% of your lineup are auto-outs that the problems get magnified.

Janish's defense warrants him playing everyday moreso than Gomes/Heisey right now. If they are going to make a move for someone, it should be a LF

I do agree. If we were getting any sort of production out of LF it would be much much easier to overlook Janish's struggles at the plate. As it is now though, it's hard to ignore how often he can't get a sac fly or move a runner over...or just get on base. Same goes for Renteria...it's not like I mean to single out Janish, both of them have been horrible.

lonewolf371
05-25-2011, 03:37 PM
Janish isn't gonna win a GG against Tulo. I realize Janish's UZR is outstanding, but the eyeball test tells me he's made a lot of errors in a semi-fulltime role.

Not even the point I was making though, at some point we have to decide if his glove is worth having his bat in the lineup. Lance mentioned that maybe it's time to take a flyer on Cozart...I can't say I would be upset with that.
What eyeballs are you using? Janish showed off his range yesterday by saving a single. On top of that he has a good arm. Plus, he makes errors at almost the exact same rate as Tulo.

I think Tulo's bat is changing how you look at his glove.

mu4103
05-25-2011, 04:42 PM
In my opinion, the Reds do not have a legit everyday LF.....
Heisey is the guy people are obsessed with, as some said the backup QB syndrome....
It might be possible that Dusty and Walt know this team better than the people that post on message boards?

I realize I am talking to Dusty Baker here. I also believe you should be concentrating on pitching match-up rather than being on the Redszone. Having said that, we are not saying that Heisey is going to be an All-Star right away. I, and I think most others, think that he has put up good enough numbers in the pros and minors (and spring training) to be given a shot. That really is something Walt and Dusty cannot argue with. Right now there is no starting QB, but a young player is waiting and may end up being the answer if given an opportunity. Lewis and Gomes have already shown what their potential is. Sorry to question you though Dusty - I know that upsets you.

BAKER12
05-25-2011, 04:54 PM
I realize I am talking to Dusty Baker here. I also believe you should be concentrating on pitching match-up rather than being on the Redszone. Having said that, we are not saying that Heisey is going to be an All-Star right away. I, and I think most others, think that he has put up good enough numbers in the pros and minors (and spring training) to be given a shot. That really is something Walt and Dusty cannot argue with. Right now there is no starting QB, but a young player is waiting and may end up being the answer if given an opportunity. Lewis and Gomes have already shown what their potential is. Sorry to question you though Dusty - I know that upsets you.

hey man, that's ok, that win last night was big time, Brucie came through and Co Co shut em down, got Doc Halladay tonight he's tough