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View Full Version : Who should take the blame



brm7675
05-23-2011, 05:33 PM
Okay if you were asked to assign blame for where we are at this point of the season would you go with...

BAKER12
05-23-2011, 10:32 PM
I think if you blame Dusty, you must blame Walt. I choose to believe we are not as good as 25-17 and not (obviously) as bad as we are in the last 6 games. Simply, a .500 team that with a few breaks wins enough games to hang around until mid September. I am not quite sure why the Heisey love bordering on obsession. He (along) with several others is a good 4th OF. Simply put we overachieved last year and that is not happening yet.

markymark69
05-23-2011, 10:37 PM
Win as a team, lose as a team. To single anyone out is petty and unproductive - but I have to consider the source of the thread.

Dusty and Walt are making poor pitches or failing to come through at the plate.

The team is in a funk right now - it happens.

Maker_84
05-23-2011, 10:40 PM
this isn't a mild slump, this pretty fricking bad. if you tell yourself otherwise then u are delusional

markymark69
05-23-2011, 10:46 PM
this isn't a mild slump, this pretty fricking bad. if you tell yourself otherwise then u are delusional

Don't believe I used the word mild. There are any number of players, people you could blame - again to single out anyone is useless - especially on a message board.

Teams have hot streaks teams where they can beat anybody - teams have slumps where they can't do anything right - it happens - it's baseball.

There is only so much Dusty can do. Nobody knows that Walt isn't trying to upgrade the ballclub - unless they are with Walt 24/7 - you have to have two to tango.

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 10:54 PM
Once again certain people fail to grasp the marathon concept of baseball. A 5-game winning streak doesn't make them great nor does a 6-game losing streak make them terrible. Ups and downs are a part of the game but, by September, the best teams will have separated themselves from the rest.

May 23rd is not the time to decide whether or not the team will be successful. This poll and the knee-jerk reactions by some on this board are mindless. How about you let the season play itself out instead of having a stroke over the first quarter of the season.....a quarter of the season in which the team still has a winning record by the way.

BAKER12
05-23-2011, 11:03 PM
Football mentality always exists on all message boards

takealeake
05-23-2011, 11:14 PM
It's Dusty's fault IMO. He seems like a good players/veterans clubhouse manager type, but this is not that type of team. A young core that many are not living up to their potential, the staff needs an all new shakeup IMO. There needs to be a manager who can light a fire under a young core, not one that's a nice guy in the clubhouse and backs the veterans to the end.

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 11:19 PM
It's Dusty's fault IMO. He seems like a good players/veterans clubhouse manager type, but this is not that type of team. A young core that many are not living up to their potential, the staff needs an all new shakeup IMO. There needs to be a manager who can light a fire under a young core, not one that's a nice guy in the clubhouse and backs the veterans to the end.

You do realize that the manager you claim should be gone won 91 games with this exact same young core last season?

Maker_84
05-23-2011, 11:20 PM
You do realize that the manager you claim should be gone won 91 games with this exact same young core last season?

we win in spite of Dusty

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 11:25 PM
we win in spite of Dusty

No team wins in spite of its leader. It comes from the top down and if the players respect the message and the man they respond. This team has responded to almost every tough situation over the past 2 seasons and that is a credit to the manager.

But I'll give you credit.....you're consistent in your unabashed hatred towards him. Incorrect, mind you, but consistent.

DocRed
05-23-2011, 11:29 PM
No team wins in spite of its leader. It comes from the top down and if the players respect the message and the man they respond. This team has responded to almost every tough situation over the past 2 seasons and that is a credit to the manager.

But I'll give you credit.....you're consistent in your unabashed hatred towards him. Incorrect, mind you, but consistent.

That's one of the stupidest statements I have heard in a long time...you mean to tell me every single team in the history of sports that had a winning record had a great manager?

That's as bad as saying every losing team has a terrible manager.

takealeake
05-23-2011, 11:32 PM
You do realize that the manager you claim should be gone won 91 games with this exact same young core last season?

I don't think he did anything to help the cause quite frankly. We should have won 100.

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 11:32 PM
That's one of the stupidest statements I have heard in a long time...you mean to tell me every single team in the history of sports that had a winning record had a great manager?

That's as bad as saying every losing team has a terrible manager.

Where did I say that sunshine? Obviously at the professional level the better players will more often than not have success. However, the point is that if the players do not respect the manager their performance will absolutely suffer for it. Dusty has been a success in his 3 stops and his current players have responded to him during his tenure. The results, despite the last few games, speak to that.

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 11:33 PM
I don't think he did anything to help the cause quite frankly. We should have won 100.

Or we could have won 85 and been on the outside looking in.

takealeake
05-23-2011, 11:36 PM
Or we could have won 85 and been on the outside looking in.

Or an atomic bomb could have destroyed the city of Cincinnati and Snake Plissken could have taken over the city afterwards. What's your point? I call it as I see it. I don't understand why the guy plays guys who are batting horribly just because they're vets, when if younger guys do the same they are sent down. I don't understand why players like Wood and Leake have regressed and someone like Jay Bruce who was the top prospect in baseball hasn't lived up to his potential despite showing flashes of brilliance. I rather risk getting a manager who can get the most of a lineup that accept complacent Dusty.

Who Dey Time
05-23-2011, 11:41 PM
Or an atomic bomb could have destroyed the city of Cincinnati and Snake Plissken could have taken over the city afterwards. What's your point? I call it as I see it. I don't understand why the guy plays guys who are batting horribly just because they're vets, when if younger guys do the same they are sent down. I don't understand why players like Wood and Leake have regressed and someone like Jay Bruce who was the top prospect in baseball hasn't lived up to his potential despite showing flashes of brilliance. I rather risk getting a manager who can get the most of a lineup that accept complacent Dusty.

You mean the same Jay Bruce that is on pace to hit over 40 HR and drive in 100+.....that Jay Bruce isn't living up to potential?

And are you really trying to claim that Leake and Wood are regressing when they are in the beginning of their second season? Actually for Wood, he hasn't been up for a full season. Do you not get the progressions of young players? Do you even know what you are talking about??????

takealeake
05-23-2011, 11:49 PM
You mean the same Jay Bruce that is on pace to hit over 40 HR and drive in 100+.....that Jay Bruce isn't living up to potential?

And are you really trying to claim that Leake and Wood are regressing when they are in the beginning of their second season? Actually for Wood, he hasn't been up for a full season. Do you not get the progressions of young players? Do you even know what you are talking about??????

Bruce should have no problem being on the All Star team this year then right? Keep defending Dusty and making excuses. Maybe you're just the world's biggest Gomes fan.

lonewolf371
05-24-2011, 12:28 AM
I don't think he did anything to help the cause quite frankly. We should have won 100.
Yeah, a 78-win team is supposed to turn around and win 100.

Hey everyone, guess what. We're 3 games out of first place and tied with the Brewers, another favorite to win the NL Central before the season. Maybe you all should chill out.

The DARK
05-24-2011, 12:34 AM
Bruce should have no problem being on the All Star team this year then right? Keep defending Dusty and making excuses. Maybe you're just the world's biggest Gomes fan.

He's on pace to be if he keeps it up. If he's not, the popularity contest of the game is partially the reason. Most prospects never reach the majors; fewer still live up to their potential. And how does it all fall back on Dusty? What about the batting coach? What about the players themselves? What about other teams? Madison Bumgarner and Mat Latos have regressed immensely this season, after stellar early years. Does that mean both of their managers, two of the best in the business last year who cobbled amazing teams from spare parts, are suddenly useless and deserve to be fired? I trust the Reds managers and owners to put a winning product on the field far more than I'd ever trust you, because that's their job and you're just a random guy on the internet who wouldn't be satisfied with anyone other than your decisions.

And while you're rambling on about players not living up to their potential, what about the ones who exceed it, like Cueto and Wood last season? Like Phillips, who turned from a spare part with a bad attitude into the face of the franchise? Like Rolen and Hernandez, who are having career resurgences with the Reds? Dusty gets no credit for those? He gets no credit for having a team with a winning record within striking distance of the top, or winning the division last year? Is everything in spite of him, when other than in-game judgement calls, we know next to nothing about how he does his job?

Wanna know why management hasn't cut Gomes yet? Because he's not just a statistic, he's an actual guy (a good one at that), and he has a job in an economy with one of the longest training periods, greatest competition, and highest turnover rates of all. Imagine if the entirety of your training and career was scrutinized by hundreds of thousands of people based on variable short-term statistics, which are often out of your control. Chances are, Gomes (and most of these guys) will have to consider retirement by 35, whether he wants to or not. And you want him to piss off just because he's had a subpar month?

lonewolf371
05-24-2011, 12:43 AM
He's on pace to be if he keeps it up. If he's not, the popularity contest of the game is partially the reason. Most prospects never reach the majors; fewer still live up to their potential. And how does it all fall back on Dusty? What about the batting coach? What about the players themselves? What about other teams? Madison Bumgarner and Mat Latos have regressed immensely this season, after stellar early years. Does that mean both of their managers, two of the best in the business last year who cobbled amazing teams from spare parts, are suddenly useless and deserve to be fired? I trust the Reds managers and owners to put a winning product on the field far more than I'd ever trust you, because that's their job and you're just a random guy on the internet who wouldn't be satisfied with anyone other than your decisions.

And while you're rambling on about players not living up to their potential, what about the ones who exceed it, like Cueto and Wood last season? Like Phillips, who turned from a spare part with a bad attitude into the face of the franchise? Like Rolen and Hernandez, who are having career resurgences with the Reds? Dusty gets no credit for those? He gets no credit for having a team with a winning record within striking distance of the top, or winning the division last year? Is everything in spite of him, when other than in-game judgement calls, we know next to nothing about how he does his job?

Wanna know why management hasn't cut Gomes yet? Because he's not just a statistic, he's an actual guy (a good one at that), and he has a job in an economy with one of the longest training periods, greatest competition, and highest turnover rates of all. Imagine if the entirety of your training and career was scrutinized by hundreds of thousands of people based on variable short-term statistics, which are often out of your control. Chances are, Gomes (and most of these guys) will have to consider retirement by 35, whether he wants to or not. And you want him to piss off just because he's had a subpar month?
While I totally agree with you, don't read too much into Bumgarner's ERA. He's actually pitched better than last season (FIP and xFIP) and has added over 1 mph to his fastball, plus ticked up his groundball rate. He's going to have some very good stats by the end of the year.

Latos is the opposite. He's lost about 2 mph off his fastball and will probably end the season around where he is now.

Just wanted to note that these two guys are probably on different trajectories for the rest of the season.

The DARK
05-24-2011, 03:51 AM
While I totally agree with you, don't read too much into Bumgarner's ERA. He's actually pitched better than last season (FIP and xFIP) and has added over 1 mph to his fastball, plus ticked up his groundball rate. He's going to have some very good stats by the end of the year.

Latos is the opposite. He's lost about 2 mph off his fastball and will probably end the season around where he is now.

Just wanted to note that these two guys are probably on different trajectories for the rest of the season.

I gotcha. They were the just the first two that came to mind.

Krawhitham
05-24-2011, 04:48 AM
I voted No reason to blame BUT

If you think the team needed a LF and SS then blame the owner NOT the GM. Walt had no money to work with after he signed players to long terms contracts. Contracts the owner told Walt to make.

DocRed
05-24-2011, 09:23 AM
Where did I say that sunshine? Obviously at the professional level the better players will more often than not have success. However, the point is that if the players do not respect the manager their performance will absolutely suffer for it. Dusty has been a success in his 3 stops and his current players have responded to him during his tenure. The results, despite the last few games, speak to that.

That's what your post implies if you read it critically. Maybe that is not what you meant, but that is what a reader will infer from the context of your post.

DaytonFlyer
05-24-2011, 10:11 AM
I am not one to blame Dusty... but wtf was Lewis doing in the lineup last night when Heisey, Gomes, AND Frazier are all on the roster and available to play left field?

Not that it would've mattered in the grand scheme, but I couldn't believe that lineup.

DocRed
05-24-2011, 10:36 AM
I am not one to blame Dusty... but wtf was Lewis doing in the lineup last night when Heisey, Gomes, AND Frazier are all on the roster and available to play left field?

Not that it would've mattered in the grand scheme, but I couldn't believe that lineup.

Dusty looked at Lewis's 3-6 lifetime against Hamels and thinks that is plenty big enough of a sample size to conclude Lewis owns Hamels.

brm7675
05-24-2011, 12:12 PM
You do realize that the manager you claim should be gone won 91 games with this exact same young core last season?

I would claim this team won 91 games in spite of him, not due to him. In fact I believe that with better management this team should have won between 95-99 games last season, been the number 1 seen and maybe had a different result in the playoffs.

brm7675
05-24-2011, 12:14 PM
Where did I say that sunshine? Obviously at the professional level the better players will more often than not have success. However, the point is that if the players do not respect the manager their performance will absolutely suffer for it. Dusty has been a success in his 3 stops and his current players have responded to him during his tenure. The results, despite the last few games, speak to that.

Succeeded? Really? He had the better team in the world series vs. the Angles and HOW DID THAT GO? He had the better team vs. the Marlins in the playoffs and HOW DID THAT GO? No the teams that won while he was manager did so inspite of, not because of Dusty.

brm7675
05-24-2011, 12:16 PM
I mean if "Dusty' is such a great talent, then why did the Giants fire him? Why did the cubs fire him? Why was he out of baseball so long after being fired by the Cubs? I mean a man with so much talent should have been scooped up the very next season right?

brm7675
05-24-2011, 12:22 PM
Yeah, a 78-win team is supposed to turn around and win 100.

Hey everyone, guess what. We're 3 games out of first place and tied with the Brewers, another favorite to win the NL Central before the season. Maybe you all should chill out.

But this team should not be 3 games out, only 2 games over .500 and on a 6 game losing streak with a very very very good chance of looking at a double digit losing streak given the pitchers we will be facing over the next 5 games. That is what is at issue here. This team is carrying players who are not performing, can't preform or refuse to be team players. We have a manager with no clue how to make out a lineup card and a GM who refuses to pull the trigger and make a move.

lonewolf371
05-24-2011, 05:02 PM
But this team should not be 3 games out, only 2 games over .500 and on a 6 game losing streak with a very very very good chance of looking at a double digit losing streak given the pitchers we will be facing over the next 5 games. That is what is at issue here. This team is carrying players who are not performing, can't preform or refuse to be team players. We have a manager with no clue how to make out a lineup card and a GM who refuses to pull the trigger and make a move.
It's been really bad lately, but as we all know, baseball is a marathon and you have to be there at the end. However, I understand that the team really needs to turn it around and win some games this week against a tough schedule. I think they will do that.