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texasdave
10-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Yes, maybe a lot of things. Unfortunately sports is a scoreboard, bottom-line type of business. Walt did not get it done. That much we DO know.

brm7675
10-05-2011, 04:39 PM
Whether or not he thinks we offered a better package...the fact is he failed and did not get him. Jocketty is a spin doctor making it seem like he did something when it fact he did nothing.

so you are saying Walt should have given the Stros what they wanted no matter what just so we got Pence? I mean what if the Stros wanted Cueto/Yonder/Devin and Hamilton...are you okay with that?

brm7675
10-05-2011, 04:40 PM
Yes, maybe a lot of things. Unfortunately sports is a scoreboard, bottom-line type of business. Walt did not get it done. That much we DO know.

Well no...the players didn't get it done. This basically same team won 91 games the season before and only won 79 this season. So no the final blame lays at the players.

nux fan
10-05-2011, 04:50 PM
well no the blame lies with baker and walt for organizing this mess, and trotting out arroyo and stubbs all the time

brm7675
10-05-2011, 04:52 PM
well no the blame lies with baker and walt for organizing this mess, and trotting out arroyo and stubbs all the time

They trotted out this same mess in 2010 and that team won 91 games, had the league MVP and won the division for the first time since like what 95? So are you saying they just got "lucky" in 2010?

Dusty has done something very few other managers have ever done, and that is take 3 different teams to a divsion title, has 1 WS appearance and how many MOTY? Walt put together a number of good quality teams in St. Louis? So are saying they just got "stoopid" all of a sudden?

nux fan
10-05-2011, 04:55 PM
2010 is over, why dont they hire bill mckechnie who won in 1939, give it up 2010 is over, yeah dusty is great , you are right he is a techo genius, in fact dusty is so brilliant that I am sure he was responsible for winning the world series in 1919 also

brm7675
10-05-2011, 04:56 PM
2010 is over, why dont they hire bill mckechnie who won in 1939, give it up 2010 is over, yeah dusty is great , you are right he is a techo genius, in fact dusty is so brilliant that I am sure he was responsible for winning the world series in 1919 also

Well that sure is a well thought out response? What about Dusty and Walt scares you so much?

nux fan
10-05-2011, 04:57 PM
you scare me much more than they do

AintlifeGrande
10-05-2011, 05:03 PM
I wish they would quit talking about how Jocketty went after players.Sounds like he's just trying to appease the fan base.But the reality is he does more harm than good by saying these things.Mine as well just say we almost decided to try and make a serious run at winning.

AintlifeGrande
10-05-2011, 05:07 PM
Can I start a "time to fire fans" thread for every one of these type of threads?

:D

Vottomatic
10-05-2011, 05:08 PM
you scare me much more than they do

:lol:

malcontent
10-06-2011, 09:36 AM
I lost some faith in Jocketty when he signed slick Willy Tavares. What was he thinking?
Yeah, that was a puzzler.

brm7675
10-06-2011, 11:06 AM
Yeah, that was a puzzler.

How many GM's have signed that guy? There will always be players that GM's think..hey our coaches can get that guy to click...heck look at how many jobs Corey Patterson has had...

smixsell
04-14-2012, 08:09 PM
BUMP. :o)

smixsell
04-19-2012, 12:47 PM
.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

It's now too late, we are already there.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 04:28 PM
Today is a prime example of the stuff that drives me nuts about Dusty, and what's worse is that it "worked" so the majority of fans don't get angry about it bc they are overly results oriented in the shortterm.

Not taking Bronson out in the 8th for Chapman is just dumb. Its pretty irrelevant to that point the # of pitches he's thrown given his history late in games, and that starters decline pretty heavily the more times they are going through the order. Sure enough, the first batter in the 8th, crushes a line drive, but luckily, it was right at Cozart. Whats disturbing, is if that ball had been hit 2 feet to the left, or 2 feet to the right, I'd imagine that Chapman would then be coming into the game, which makes no sense to me. If he was that "close to being pulled in that one base hit he gives up and hes out of the game" to me, its better to go ahead and be pro active and bring in a quality relief guy.

Then to top it off, Dusty manages to do something even dumber in the same freaking game. 9th inning, Reds up 5-3, 0 outs, man on 1st and Bronson is at the plate. Lets have Bronson hit, instead of pinch hitting, but lets make him bunt instead. But were not doing this bc we believe Bronson is on fire and is gonna finish the game off in the 9th. No, we're doing this to then bring Marshall in for the bottom of the 9th. These choices are entirely logically inconsistent at every level.

You can make a decent argument, (albeit I disagree) that letting bronson hit and then pitch the 9th bc we for some reason believe Bronson is just having one of those amazing days and him pitching maximizes our chance of getting 3 outs in the 9th while resting the pen. Or, you could pinch hit, maximize our chances of getting multiple runs with the top of the order coming up (not to mention extra ABs for bench players never hurts) and then bring Marshall in for the 9th. Either one is at least logically ok, even if i think the first one is based on a dumb premise (bronson on fire today), but somehow he manages to defy all logic and do neither.

Yet, this wont be mentioned anywhere in any newspaper bc the reds won. Sometimes dumb people hit with 20 in blackjack and they win. Doesnt mean the decision to hit was correct. It's often the same thing in baseball. The wrong decision can work a decent chunk of the time, but wont maximize wins and that's the crap Dusty does over and over.

Fortunately, at least managers dont affect W/L totals that much in the grand scheme of things.

Stray
04-19-2012, 04:32 PM
Today is a prime example of the stuff that drives me nuts about Dusty, and what's worse is that it "worked" so the majority of fans don't get angry about it bc they are overly results oriented in the shortterm.

Not taking Bronson out in the 8th for Chapman is just dumb. Its pretty irrelevant to that point the # of pitches he's thrown given his history late in games, and that starters decline pretty heavily the more times they are going through the order. Sure enough, the first batter in the 8th, crushes a line drive, but luckily, it was right at Cozart. Whats disturbing, is if that ball had been hit 2 feet to the left, or 2 feet to the right, I'd imagine that Chapman would then be coming into the game, which makes no sense to me. If he was that "close to being pulled in that one base hit he gives up and hes out of the game" to me, its better to go ahead and be pro active and bring in a quality relief guy.

Then to top it off, Dusty manages to do something even dumber in the same freaking game. 9th inning, Reds up 5-3, 0 outs, man on 1st and Bronson is at the plate. Lets have Bronson hit, instead of pinch hitting, but lets make him bunt instead. But were not doing this bc we believe Bronson is on fire and is gonna finish the game off in the 9th. No, we're doing this to then bring Marshall in for the bottom of the 9th. These choices are entirely logically inconsistent at every level.

You can make a decent argument, (albeit I disagree) that letting bronson hit and then pitch the 9th bc we for some reason believe Bronson is just having one of those amazing days and him pitching maximizes our chance of getting 3 outs in the 9th while resting the pen. Or, you could pinch hit, maximize our chances of getting multiple runs with the top of the order coming up (not to mention extra ABs for bench players never hurts) and then bring Marshall in for the 9th. Either one is at least logically ok, even if i think the first one is based on a dumb premise (bronson on fire today), but somehow he manages to defy all logic and do neither.

Yet, this wont be mentioned anywhere in any newspaper bc the reds won. Sometimes dumb people hit with 20 in blackjack and they win. Doesnt mean the decision to hit was correct. It's often the same thing in baseball. The wrong decision can work a decent chunk of the time, but wont maximize wins and that's the crap Dusty does over and over.

Fortunately, at least managers dont affect W/L totals that much in the grand scheme of things.

With Bronson's pitch count there was nothing wrong with him going in the 8th, just so long as someone was ready to come in if they got a hit. That's pretty normal managing there.

After the leadoff single in the 9th the call was to sacrifice to 2nd and have two cracks at an insurance run. Why PH for your best bunting pitcher in an obvious bunting situation? Heisey bats if Hanigan doesn't get on base. Again, not abnormal.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 04:35 PM
Normal managing /=/ good/optimal managing. A lot of managers make consistently dumb decisions across sports that are considered "standard" or "normal". See the risk aversion that NFL coaches have towards 4th down situations.

Great article about how managers don't even have much predictive value of late inning starter performances.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/summarizing_late_inning_starter_and_reliever_perfo rmance/

texasdave
04-19-2012, 04:35 PM
Is it me or have the Reds been having a whole bunch of trouble getting a simple sacrifice down? (And if they are going to sacrifice they should have sent up Willie Harris. He needs the practice.) <---this was a little joke.

Stray
04-19-2012, 04:37 PM
Normal managing /+/ good/optimal managing. A lot of managers make consistently dumb decisions across sports. See the risk aversion that NFL coaches have towards 4th down situations.

Maybe, but with a two run lead in the 9th, if you get your leadoff hitter on I think the correct call is to sacrifice if you don't have one of your best hitters up. That's a big run in that situation.

Stray
04-19-2012, 04:38 PM
Is it me or have the Reds been having a whole bunch of trouble getting a simple sacrifice down? And if they are going to sacrifice they should have sent up Willie Harris. He needs the practice.

We've been awful at laying down sacrifices.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 04:39 PM
and further to illustrate why the sacrifice is dumb, is when the best case realistic scenario is a runner on 2nd with 1 out, which its not like it is successful 90% of the time, is pretty disturbing. No guys get sacrifices down successfully nearly as often as many believe.

Stray
04-19-2012, 04:43 PM
and further to illustrate why the sacrifice is dumb, is when the best case scenario is a runner on 2nd with 1 out, which its not like it happens 90% of the time is pretty disturbing. No guys get sacrifices down successfully nearly as often as many believe.

It takes away the double play and it gives you two at bats to add to your lead. And I don't know the percentages, but I would imagine Arroyo gets that bunt down at a pretty high rate. He usually handles the bat really well.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 04:53 PM
It takes away the double play and it gives you two at bats to add to your lead. And I don't know the percentages, but I would imagine Arroyo gets that bunt down at a pretty high rate. He usually handles the bat really well.
Problem is it doesn't take away the double play. It may diminish the chances of one, but I've seen more than a few double plays off of sac bunt attempts.

While none of us can know arroyo's true success rate to the exact %,in that specific instance, but in some quick googling this was the best breakdown i could find was a summation of every team in 05. I doubt the numbers change much year to year overall for this type of thing.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4886/sacrificebunts.jpg

Stray
04-19-2012, 04:56 PM
I still liked the call. Honestly, in that situation I thought it was a no-brainer. If you have the worlds best bunter on the bench you can bring him in to do that, but Heisey/Harris/Rolen/Mes are not.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 05:03 PM
I'm not saying to bring them in to bunt. I'm saying to bring them in to hit the ball

Stray
04-19-2012, 05:07 PM
I know that. I guess we can agree to disagree. I just like the play to turn to the top of your lineup with 2 shots at an insurance run.

arkimadee
09-25-2012, 05:25 PM
.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

that's not very nice :(

smixsell
09-25-2012, 07:15 PM
that's not very nice :(

Only the development and acquisition of overwhelming pitching and the (forced) injection of new talent into the lineup has prevented this from happening.

It will STILL probably happen unless Dusty retires (after a WS championship---Lord willing) or is fired.

But lets drop the pro- Dusty vs. anti-Dusty argument until after the playoffs please. I'd like to enjoy the moment if possible :)

dubc47834
09-25-2012, 07:40 PM
Only the development and acquisition of overwhelming pitching and the (forced) injection of new talent into the lineup has prevented this from happening.

It will STILL probably happen unless Dusty retires (after a WS championship---Lord willing) or is fired.

But lets drop the pro- Dusty vs. anti-Dusty argument until after the playoffs please. I'd like to enjoy the moment if possible :)

Its not about you enjoying the moment, its you not wanting to admit you were wrong.

smixsell
09-25-2012, 08:20 PM
Its not about you enjoying the moment, its you not wanting to admit you were wrong.

I'm not wrong. We WERE a bunch of increasingly lazy punks last year as my original post predicted. We were saved by an influx of new blood this year. If Dusty continues as our manager we will again wind up a bunch of lazy punks sooner rather than later.

I've also admitted that Dusty has done a much better job this year. You have no case. Now can we call a truce?

40YrRedsFan
09-27-2012, 04:12 PM
Dusty's health issues may make the decision for everyone. He has a young son and may very well decide that continuing as manager won't be good for his stress level and overall health.

Biff Pocoroba
09-27-2012, 05:13 PM
I'm not wrong. We WERE a bunch of increasingly lazy punks last year as my original post predicted. We were saved by an influx of new blood this year. If Dusty continues as our manager we will again wind up a bunch of lazy punks sooner rather than later.

I've also admitted that Dusty has done a much better job this year. You have no case. Now can we call a truce?


hmmm, in April, you resurrected a six month old thread calling for Dusty to be fired, and you commented it was "too late" now ... and yet you're saying that someone else has no case? While throwing in some arse saving excuses about new blood and starting pitching? uh, okay.

I don't understand why folks can't own up to being wrong.

PumpFak3First
09-27-2012, 05:29 PM
I'm not wrong. We WERE a bunch of increasingly lazy punks last year as my original post predicted. We were saved by an influx of new blood this year. If Dusty continues as our manager we will again wind up a bunch of lazy punks sooner rather than later.

I've also admitted that Dusty has done a much better job this year. You have no case. Now can we call a truce?

http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/619d6315f5806b69aa4fd6b418d91bea7930b4bc_m.gif

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/max-blum-denial.gif

smixsell
09-27-2012, 06:40 PM
http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/619d6315f5806b69aa4fd6b418d91bea7930b4bc_m.gif

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/max-blum-denial.gif

Brilliant argument.

Here's my counter agument: :KoolAid:

:)

EMAW
09-27-2012, 06:40 PM
Good grief, have never seen such hatred for a guy who wins so much. Two division titles in three years and continual moaning. Said it before and will say it again, there are some sad individuals who would rather be a last place team with a white manager than a first place team managed by a minority.

smixsell
09-27-2012, 06:44 PM
Good grief, have never seen such hatred for a guy who wins so much. Two division titles in three years and continual moaning. Said it before and will say it again, there are some sad individuals who would rather be a last place team with a white manager than a first place team managed by a minority.

The original post is from May 2011 (and was downright prophetic concering our performance in 2011)

PS Anybody except Bobby Valentine could have won the Central this year with this roster. :)

PPS I'm done with this thread until the end of the postseason this year. I'm going to enjoy the postseason, and not argue with fellow Reds fans until its over. :)

smixsell
09-27-2012, 06:49 PM
Good grief, have never seen such hatred for a guy who wins so much. Two division titles in three years and continual moaning. Said it before and will say it again, there are some sad individuals who would rather be a last place team with a white manager than a first place team managed by a minority.


Just noticed that charge of racism. Are you for real? I feel sorry for you race-baiter.

I'm really done now.

The Rage
09-27-2012, 08:30 PM
Just noticed that charge of racism. Are you for real? I feel sorry for you race-baiter.

I'm really done now.

If he is black, I will forgive him for his ignorance. If he is white: SELF HATER!!!!!:laugh:

Anyways, Baker has gotten this team to overachieve a bit. A team with this offense should not be winning 95+ games.

EMAW
09-27-2012, 10:37 PM
Haters will always hate

Krawhitham
09-27-2012, 10:57 PM
He will not be fired, he is on a one year deal. They might not sign him to a new contract if they feel his health concerns could be an issue next season

Ironman92
09-27-2012, 11:00 PM
Good grief, have never seen such hatred for a guy who wins so much. Two division titles in three years and continual moaning. Said it before and will say it again, there are some sad individuals who would rather be a last place team with a white manager than a first place team managed by a minority.

Where did that come from??? WTH?

I'll take green with purple stripes if we're winning the world series.

I don't like some of his decisions but his color is not a part of anything.

Really a silly post. You can use "some people" and end it with virtually anything.

Some people have died from getting choked on bubble gum.

No reason for the black/white issue IMO.

Krawhitham
09-27-2012, 11:07 PM
Good grief, have never seen such hatred for a guy who wins so much. Two division titles in three years and continual moaning. Said it before and will say it again, there are some sad individuals who would rather be a last place team with a white manager than a first place team managed by a minority.

Do you not understand fanbases?

ST Louis fans always crucify Tony, always screaming for him to be fired.
Just look at his final season as an example. In 15 season he had gone to the playoffs 8 times went the WS twice and had one once. But that season 90% of the fan base wanted him fired. All he ended up doing that season was winning another WS

The last time I check Tony LaRussa was a white guy

Ironman92
09-27-2012, 11:09 PM
St Louis ain't racist!

Krawhitham
09-27-2012, 11:33 PM
St Louis ain't racist!

They may or may not be, I've never been there

But Tony is not black

Ironman92
09-28-2012, 06:04 AM
They may or may not be, I've never been there

But Tony is not black

His hair is black!

dubc47834
09-28-2012, 07:27 AM
The original post is from May 2011 (and was downright prophetic concering our performance in 2011)

PS Anybody except Bobby Valentine could have won the Central this year with this roster. :)

PPS I'm done with this thread until the end of the postseason this year. I'm going to enjoy the postseason, and not argue with fellow Reds fans until its over. :)

How convenient of you to say you're done until the post season is over!!! If the Reds make an early exit then you will be all over Dusty's case AGAIN, and if they go deep, well, there won't be much goin for ya. Anyone coulda predicted the saeson we had last year. A young team coming off a postseason birth, thinking things would be easy since they played soo well the season before. They were the hunted, not the hunter. Next time don't go soooooo far out on a limb bro!!!!

Biff Pocoroba
09-28-2012, 12:59 PM
The difference between last year has little (in my opinion) to do with attitude or how Dusty handled the players. It has to do with acquiring Latos for minor leaguers. It had to do with Arroyo returning to form. It had to do with beter arms in the bullpen. It had to do with contributions of guys like Frazier, Cozart and Ludwick. It had to do with a starting five that never missed a turn. It's not that Dusty didn't know how to manage a team last year. It has to do with him having more talent to manage.

So the complainers are correct that new blood and better arms benefited Dusty this year. But what they refuse to recognize is the lack of these elements is largely to blame for last year's results.... rather than it being about Dusty created a lazy clubhouse.

The Rage
09-28-2012, 03:51 PM
The difference between last year has little (in my opinion) to do with attitude or how Dusty handled the players. It has to do with acquiring Latos for minor leaguers. It had to do with Arroyo returning to form. It had to do with beter arms in the bullpen. It had to do with contributions of guys like Frazier, Cozart and Ludwick. It had to do with a starting five that never missed a turn. It's not that Dusty didn't know how to manage a team last year. It has to do with him having more talent to manage.

So the complainers are correct that new blood and better arms benefited Dusty this year. But what they refuse to recognize is the lack of these elements is largely to blame for last year's results.... rather than it being about Dusty created a lazy clubhouse.

It also has to do with luck. The Reds won more 1 run games than they probably deserved, the reverse of last year when they lost more one run games than they deserved.

dubc47834
09-28-2012, 05:47 PM
The difference between last year has little (in my opinion) to do with attitude or how Dusty handled the players. It has to do with acquiring Latos for minor leaguers. It had to do with Arroyo returning to form. It had to do with beter arms in the bullpen. It had to do with contributions of guys like Frazier, Cozart and Ludwick. It had to do with a starting five that never missed a turn. It's not that Dusty didn't know how to manage a team last year. It has to do with him having more talent to manage.

So the complainers are correct that new blood and better arms benefited Dusty this year. But what they refuse to recognize is the lack of these elements is largely to blame for last year's results.... rather than it being about Dusty created a lazy clubhouse.

I can agree with this!!!

BEETTLEBUG
09-30-2012, 12:20 PM
I saw on MLB TradeRumors that Castellini might be interested in Bobby Valentine as Manager if they didn't bring Dusty back cause of illness. What is thought about this?

Ironman92
09-30-2012, 12:26 PM
I saw on MLB TradeRumors that Castellini might be interested in Bobby Valentine as Manager if they didn't bring Dusty back cause of illness. What is thought about this?

Lol

IamRV
09-30-2012, 01:28 PM
Dusty's health issues may make the decision for everyone. He has a young son and may very well decide that continuing as manager won't be good for his stress level and overall health.

Hopefully this will be the case.

SweetLou1990
10-01-2012, 07:16 PM
Hopefully this will be the case.

Dusty has been a good enough manager to lead the previously painfully woeful Reds with NO playoff wins or playoff appearances from 1995 to 2009 to 2 Central titles in 3 years. Lets cut the man a break.

My favorite manager will always b the current Reds manager - blind faith, its what makes me a fan(atic).

Hopefully Dusty will make a few calls to help the Reds sweep the Cards!

40YrRedsFan
10-01-2012, 07:52 PM
I saw on MLB TradeRumors that Castellini might be interested in Bobby Valentine as Manager if they didn't bring Dusty back cause of illness. What is thought about this?

Please, not Bobby V. If Dusty does not return, there are much better choices than Bobby V. I would talk with Francona, even though he is already in talks with the Indians about managing there next year.

improbus
10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
Are we really discussing a new manager when we are possibly a few wins away from finishing the season with the best record in baseball? I find this discussion macabre.

IamRV
10-02-2012, 05:23 PM
Are we really discussing a new manager when we are possibly a few wins away from finishing the season with the best record in baseball? I find this discussion macabre.

It's not like he's on his deathbed - that would be macabre. You might find it distasteful and that's your right but given his health concerns, it's certainly plausible he will retire.

Regardless, there are more than a few that have been, and still are, less than pleased with his day to day lineup constructions and in game moves. If he returns, one of our few options would be that Walt replaces the unproductive players thereby 'helping' Dusty out with his lineup choices.

EMAW
10-02-2012, 05:32 PM
I expect Dusty to retire, even before the health scare I did
Choices (if they hire LaRussa, would be tough to wear Reds gear) that are reasonable
1. Speier
2. Price
3. Leyland
4. Sweet
5. Rolen

Rrobo9
10-02-2012, 11:18 PM
It's not like he's on his deathbed - that would be macabre. You might find it distasteful and that's your right but given his health concerns, it's certainly plausible he will retire.

Regardless, there are more than a few that have been, and still are, less than pleased with his day to day lineup constructions and in game moves. If he returns, one of our few options would be that Walt replaces the unproductive players thereby 'helping' Dusty out with his lineup choices.

you are pretty funny and stupid at the same time....:laugh:

EMAW
10-02-2012, 11:35 PM
you are pretty funny and stupid at the same time....:laugh:

Lineup construction is clearly more important than winning games

bigredmechanism
10-03-2012, 12:07 AM
I bet we would have 130+ wins right now if we made the lineups correctly, guys.

EMAW
10-03-2012, 05:49 PM
I bet we would have 130+ wins right now if we made the lineups correctly, guys.

Same goes with Sparky and the 1976 Reds, should have won 150 games if he would have known how to make out a SABR approved lineup

Stray
10-05-2012, 04:47 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman
Baker was taking a lot about the future. "So does that mean you'll definitely back?" I asked. He smiled. "This is my team." #reds