Time to fire Dusty

[smixsell]

.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

[Who Dey Time]

.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

Worst. Post. Ever.

[Hillsdale87]

Brandon's play last night was inexcusable, but come on... The team led the NL in going 1st to 3rd last year. I have issues with Dusty, but I don't think there's any danger of this team turning into the Cubs

[smixsell]

Brandon's play last night was inexcusable, but come on... The team led the NL in going 1st to 3rd last year. I have issues with Dusty, but I don't think there's any danger of this team turning into the Cubs

Ever hear of hyperbole?

[bengalsown]

Ever hear of hyperbole?

Good thread.

[smixsell]

Worst. Post. Ever.

First . class. genius. mate. ROTFL

Just tell any knowledgable SF Giants ( I live in the bay area unfortunately)that you're a Reds fan and they'll just give you that "I feel your pain" look and offer their sympathy.

And they have seen the best of Dusty. But they will all tell you that he has no plan, makes nothing but mind boggling decisions, and instead of improving young players by teaching them how to play the game proberly and insiting on player accountability, gradually turns his team into clueless undisciplined sods.

[brm7675]

While I agree Dusty needs to go, I don't see last night's game as totally his fault. Players do need to accept part of the blame. But yes it is time for dusty to be removed.

[demas863]

.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

Best. Post. Ever.

[R_Webb18]

stupid thread

1) hes not Leaving

just so you don't misread

HE IS NOT LEAVING get over it.

[Natty Redlocks]

It was never time to hire him. But they're right; we're stuck with him so try to focus on his good qualities. Did you know he's a big Van Morrison fan?

[DocRed]

Mark Prior and Kerry Wood just called Carlos Fisher to offer their condolences.

[bshall2105]

Mark Prior and Kerry Wood just called Carlos Fisher to offer their condolences.

Luckily for us Carlos Fisher isn't one of the top pitching prospects in the game.

[Moosie52]

Again? :lastyear:

[CrosleyField]

Not gonna happen, doesn't deserve to happen. We just won our first division championship since 1995 and we are in contention to do it again.

[brm7675]

Not gonna happen, doesn't deserve to happen. We just won our first division championship since 1995 and we are in contention to do it again.

I would contend that we are "not" in contention this season. Last season things "clicked" we got key hits with RISP, we got unexpected production from the SS/LF position. Those 2 things alone this season are not happening. I still think we are a good team, but under Dusty's leadership we just are not getting it done.

[bounty37h]

Can I start a "time to fire fans" thread for every one of these type of threads?

[BAKER12]

Larry Bowa is available to bring discipline to Cincy. A proven loser, but more importantly stern disciplinarians. This is probably the most retardulated thread ever. Belongs on the other site that blame Dusty for everything that goes wrong in the world.

[will5979]

I would contend that we are "not" in contention this season. Last season things "clicked" we got key hits with RISP, we got unexpected production from the SS/LF position. Those 2 things alone this season are not happening. I still think we are a good team, but under Dusty's leadership we just are not getting it done.

You also forgot to mention the starting pitching to go along with the SS/LF difference of last year/this year cough cough Mike Leake.

[brm7675]

You also forgot to mention the starting pitching to go along with the SS/LF difference of last year/this year cough cough Mike Leake.

I think if given the chance Leake will produce at about the same level overall as he did last year, maybe a little bit better. Lets not forget in his first 6 starts he had 4 quality ones, he had 2 bad outings and that was it..

[smixsell]

FYI, This is not a knee jerk post, and I am by no means blaming Dusty for everything. In fact I still think the Reds will most likely win the Central again this year with Dusty at the helm.

I just wanted to introduce the idea that I think Dusty is too tactically inept to win it all (postseason magnifies the importance of tactical decisions) and is bad for the long term development of the players. I personally think this team has a great nucleus of young, talented, and hungry players who are good enough to win the WS in 2-3 years. Unfortunately they are not being ingrained with the mental discipline playing sound fundamental baseball requires. Nor are the players held accountable for their gaffes (Brandon hot dog's it in the 11th and costs us the game and our bullpen for the next 2 days and doesn't get benched for at least 1 game?--Gomes is trotted out there every day for 6 months with a swing little leaguers would be ashamed of and a 6 month batting avg of around .198 and Dusty "doesn't want to hurt his confidence) C'mon. These guys are decent eggs but the need a "grown up" manager to hold them accountable and help then shed their childish habits. (In the case of Brandon, his longstanding childish habits). We need a manager to treat these guys like the men they are, and not a manger who to treats them like little boys.

As for tactical ineptitude, how is starting Gomes in games 1 and 2 against CLE (hitting .178 this year, and like maybe .210 over the past 4 months dating back to last season, and .242 over his CAREER) and keeps Ramon Hernandez on the bench (Hitting .340 this year, red hot, and our best clutch hitter) on the instead of DH'ing him. And he bats Gomes the .178 hitter second! Give me a break. What happens? We lose both games by 1 run and stay mired in a slump and Gomes doesn't "get going." So he sacrifices game after game trying to "save the confidence" of a grown man and to "get a guy going" who has NEVER been that good hitter aside from a 2 month stretch last year.

Championships are won by teams comprised of men, not boys, and many on this team will take a lot longer to become "men" under Dusty, if they ever get there at all.

As I said before, I think the Reds are good enough to win the WS in the next few years, but it is going to take a real leader to get us there, not a "touchy feely" "nice old grandpa" like Dusty. Dusty is a good manager IMO, just not quite right and not quite good enough for this team of potential future stars.

[Vottomatic]

Reds are screwed. Dusty has a multi-year contract. BC won't eat it. Even if this team finishes 4th to last, he will be back next year.

[brm7675]

Reds are screwed. Dusty has a multi-year contract. BC won't eat it. Even if this team finishes 4th to last, he will be back next year.

I disagree on that, our new owner wants to win and win badly. I think he would eat that contract in a minute if he thought a change in direction would work.

[texasdave]

I disagree on that, our new owner wants to win and win badly. I think he would eat that contract in a minute if he thought a change in direction would work.

If he wanted to win all that badly he would have ponied up for a LF bat in the off-season instead of hoping that a Gomes/Lewis would get the job done.

[brm7675]

If he wanted to win all that badly he would have ponied up for a LF bat in the off-season instead of hoping that a Gomes/Lewis would get the job done.

What LF bat was available? I mean it is sure easy to say go get a bat, but what FA LF bat was available and worth the monies? i don't remember it being a real strong FA class over the offseason. Also, I am willing to bet that both Walt and Dusty didn't ask for a LF bat as both felt Gomes was the answer so you can't blame the owner.

[texasdave]

What LF bat was available? I mean it is sure easy to say go get a bat, but what FA LF bat was available and worth the monies? i don't remember it being a real strong FA class over the offseason. Also, I am willing to bet that both Walt and Dusty didn't ask for a LF bat as both felt Gomes was the answer so you can't blame the owner.

What LF bat is available is a meaningless question. As fans we don't make the calls to other teams. We don't really know who is or isn't available. I will say this. If your owner will pay and you have minor league trading chips then someone will be available.

[brm7675]

What LF bat is available is a meaningless question. As fans we don't make the calls to other teams. We don't really know who is or isn't available. I will say this. If your owner will pay and you have minor league trading chips then someone will be available.

Maybe...but also I believe both Dusty and Walt felt that Gomes would be the man and if that is the case, then it's on them, not the owner.

[NatiWolfpack24]

Thread title should be Time To Play Arm Chair Manager again

[brm7675]

Thread title should be Time To Play Arm Chair Manager again

Couldn't do any worse then the actual manager...

[smixsell]

I disagree on that, our new owner wants to win and win badly. I think he would eat that contract in a minute if he thought a change in direction would work.

I agree.

The trick is finding the right replacement. Maybe Joe Torre or Lou Piniella will come out of retirement for us? :)

How old is Davey Johnson again? ;)

[skywalker]

Toothpick needs to go

[BAKER12]

I agree.

The trick is finding the right replacement. Maybe Joe Torre or Lou Piniella will come out of retirement for us? :)

How old is Davey Johnson again? ;)

The same guy that manages a team, to the division title in 2010 should be fired?
Lou really did a wonderful job with the Cubs last year, just like in Tampa he quit trying to win and gave up when things did not go well. Torre is hardly a small market manager and Davey Johnson has issues. If your going for an old-timer, bring in Herzog. Get real, the Reds have problems and Dusty is not one of them.

[BEETTLEBUG]

How about Mister Pete McCanian not right spelling but Smart guy or Rick Sweet.

[Billy Hamilton's Legs]

Not gonna happen, doesn't deserve to happen. We just won our first division championship since 1995 and we are in contention to do it again.

This. If you honestly think Dusty is to blame for the current slump, you are mistaken. Occasionally, yes, he gives Gomes a start when clearly he has no business in the lineup, but I credit Dusty for a lot of the reasons that this team became a winning team. Dusty gives young players a chance to build confidence and show these players that he has their back, which can really go a long way in player development. I think a lot of other managers wouldn't have been as good for the development of say, Jay Bruce. Dusty rides through a player's slump and shows faith in them because he knows they can hit, and sure enough, they usually come around. Other managers would be prone to bench them or reduce their starts, which doesn't aid development of the player in my opinion. Dusty also has yet to do any major damage to the arms of any of our players. Aaron Harang may have had some issues due to Dusty, but largely, none of the current injuries are Dusty's fault. Dusty also knows how to win. He's been there and has a calm, cool approach to managing that is good for a young team like ours that may get discouraged easily (streches like now). This is the time when I think dusty excels. Many managers would panic. Dusty does not panic, and will not panic. In summary, Dusty has very little to do with the current losing stretch and should not be held accountable.

[smixsell]

The same guy that manages a team, to the division title in 2010 should be fired?
Lou really did a wonderful job with the Cubs last year, just like in Tampa he quit trying to win and gave up when things did not go well. Torre is hardly a small market manager and Davey Johnson has issues. If your going for an old-timer, bring in Herzog. Get real, the Reds have problems and Dusty is not one of them.

Geez, the post was tongue-in-cheek. And Dusty IS one of the problems. Strike 1, strike 2, .........

[R_Webb18]

its kinda funny how every1 hates dusty but every1 that plays for him loves him

[brm7675]

This. If you honestly think Dusty is to blame for the current slump, you are mistaken. Occasionally, yes, he gives Gomes a start when clearly he has no business in the lineup, but I credit Dusty for a lot of the reasons that this team became a winning team. Dusty gives young players a chance to build confidence and show these players that he has their back, which can really go a long way in player development. I think a lot of other managers wouldn't have been as good for the development of say, Jay Bruce. Dusty rides through a player's slump and shows faith in them because he knows they can hit, and sure enough, they usually come around. Other managers would be prone to bench them or reduce their starts, which doesn't aid development of the player in my opinion. Dusty also has yet to do any major damage to the arms of any of our players. Aaron Harang may have had some issues due to Dusty, but largely, none of the current injuries are Dusty's fault. Dusty also knows how to win. He's been there and has a calm, cool approach to managing that is good for a young team like ours that may get discouraged easily (streches like now). This is the time when I think dusty excels. Many managers would panic. Dusty does not panic, and will not panic. In summary, Dusty has very little to do with the current losing stretch and should not be held accountable.

Really? How many games have the Reds played so far? In that total amount how many of the following stupid things has Dusty done?

1. Started Gomes in LF
2. Used Gomes as a DH?
3. Had the no. 2 slot filled by our non hitting SS position
4. Misused or abused the pitching staff
5. Hit Gomes 4th or 5th
6. Left Heisey on the Bench
7. Left Lewis on the Bench

I will agree the players do need to accept a percentage of the blame, but when you are not playing your best possible roster talent in the best lineup possible you are causing your team to be in a negative situation from the start.

[brm7675]

its kinda funny how every1 hates dusty but every1 that plays for him loves him

No one has said he is a bad guy, just a bad in game manager. No question he is great in "handling' players and ego's and such. But he is horrible in lineup construction, in game moves and how to handle a pitching staff. Anyone who sees his lineups or watches the games will see this.

[Hey Meat]

Last year we won despite Dusty. Early on this year it appears that this will not happen. I think its time to cut our losses. Fire Dusty.

[Billy Hamilton's Legs]

Really? How many games have the Reds played so far? In that total amount how many of the following stupid things has Dusty done?

1. Started Gomes in LF
2. Used Gomes as a DH?
3. Had the no. 2 slot filled by our non hitting SS position
4. Misused or abused the pitching staff
5. Hit Gomes 4th or 5th
6. Left Heisey on the Bench
7. Left Lewis on the Bench

I will agree the players do need to accept a percentage of the blame, but when you are not playing your best possible roster talent in the best lineup possible you are causing your team to be in a negative situation from the start.

5 out of 7 of your points have to do with LF/Jonny Gomes; they could be condensed into one point: Gomes's PT in LF was unjustified and he was misused. What has he done to the pitching staff? I would appreciate concrete examples of more than one instance of this. He also played SS at number 2 a few times, it's certainly not a habitual thing for dusty to bat the SS second. As you have noticed, this was a short test, and it is over now as he hasn't hit the SS second in a while. I also have a minor defense of Dusty's play of Jonny Gomes. Let's be honest, when Jonny gets hot, he really adds a lot power to the lineup. Look at his May last year, it was phenomenal. I think Dusty knows that with Gomes, a lot of his struggles are mental and they show up in his swing and approach at the plate. Dusty was simply trying to reignite the fire and show some confidence in Gomes which would hopefully allow him to start hitting again. Did this experiment drag out too long? Absolutely. But did Dusty have some logic behind the moves he made? yes.

[brm7675]

5 out of 7 of your points have to do with LF/Jonny Gomes; they could be condensed into one point: Gomes's PT in LF was unjustified and he was misused. What has he done to the pitching staff? I would appreciate concrete examples of more than one instance of this. He also played SS at number 2 a few times, it's certainly not a habitual thing for dusty to bat the SS second. As you have noticed, this was a short test, and it is over now as he hasn't hit the SS second in a while. I also have a minor defense of Dusty's play of Jonny Gomes. Let's be honest, when Jonny gets hot, he really adds a lot power to the lineup. Look at his May last year, it was phenomenal. I think Dusty knows that with Gomes, a lot of his struggles are mental and they show up in his swing and approach at the plate. Dusty was simply trying to reignite the fire and show some confidence in Gomes which would hopefully allow him to start hitting again. Did this experiment drag out too long? Absolutely. But did Dusty have some logic behind the moves he made? yes.

A) Dusty's choice of EV as opening day starter set a bad tone and his continual use of him when it was clear he wasn't ML ready hurt us. How many games did EV start where we were down at least 2-3 runs before we even went to bat?

B) His abuse of Chapman which resulted in first arm issues now mechanical issues.

C) Dusty doesn't have the ability to know when a pitcher is gassed adn needs to come out, how many times has he left a pitcher in when it was clear he wasn't getting the job done?

D) review your stats and I bet during Dusty's time with the Reds, that the SS position has hit in the 2 spot more times then any other position on the team.

E) Anyone with common sense knows Janish is not a very good hitter, why hit him so high when you KNOW he can't hit.

F) During Johnny Gomes entire career with the Reds he has been HOT like what for 2.5 months? He is NOT a good player, he NEVER has been a good player. you don't play bad players.

[Billy Hamilton's Legs]

A) Dusty's choice of EV as opening day starter set a bad tone and his continual use of him when it was clear he wasn't ML ready hurt us. How many games did EV start where we were down at least 2-3 runs before we even went to bat?

B) His abuse of Chapman which resulted in first arm issues now mechanical issues.

C) Dusty doesn't have the ability to know when a pitcher is gassed adn needs to come out, how many times has he left a pitcher in when it was clear he wasn't getting the job done?

D) review your stats and I bet during Dusty's time with the Reds, that the SS position has hit in the 2 spot more times then any other position on the team.

E) Anyone with common sense knows Janish is not a very good hitter, why hit him so high when you KNOW he can't hit.

F) During Johnny Gomes entire career with the Reds he has been HOT like what for 2.5 months? He is NOT a good player, he NEVER has been a good player. you don't play bad players.

A) EV pitched like an ace before TJ and nobody disagrees that he has the stuff to be a #1, but EV just wasn't able to pull it together. EV has some serious talent, and there is no reason to think that after enough recovery time post TJ that he wouldn't be able to pitch well. I don't understand how that is a bad "tone." Yea, the wheels fell off, but when the guy hits his locations, he's incredible, the rule of thumb is give a pitcher 100+ innings post TJ before you make a judgment, regardless of time after surgery. MLB innings are different than throwing bullpen sessions or ST.

B)I would love to hear you explain Dusty's "abuse" of Chapman's arm. Chapman's problems are rooted in location of pitches, not this "abuse" you seem to be trying to point at. When you are throwing 100mph with the mechanics he uses, your control is going to be tough. Not Dusty's fault there.

C)Dusty hasn't left guys in when they're gassed. Please read, maybe this will quell people's constant criticisms towards Dusty with regard to overusing pitchers: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13948

D&E)Regarding Dusty batting the SS second, the years in the past aren't the issue. OCab may not have been the ideal #2, but he got the job done, and we ended up with the best offense in the NL and won the division. This year he tried it a few times with Janish/Renteria, and it didn't work. Again, notice he hasn't been batting the SS there as of late.

F)I am not trying to say Gomes is great or the best LF option we have, but if he can hit .250 with power, he isn't that bad of an option. Yes you want more out of LF, but Gomes's OPS that usually corresponds with a .250 avg isn't usually too bad. Gomes's appeal is his attitude and presence in the club house. Dusty figures that if Jonny can hit .250 with power, he is playable in LF and he can add that presence to the clubhouse that I think can be underrated. But believe me, I don't think he is our best LF option, I just think from the point of view of the manager, it can make sense.

[R_Webb18]

i have a hard to believing dusty can find a job over and over and over if hes just killing pitchers.

lets get 1 thing striaght last year every1 over and over again kept saying let janish play. I told my brother "I bet he's nothing great" What do you know he's been horrible.

yes gomes is not the best but imo lewis or heisey are not the answer either. yes you can argue they are better and I will agree but its not nothing to brag about. I do think Heisey should get a shot tho.

I don't really think Dusty can do anything good in your eyes everything he does there will always be something wrong.

[texasdave]

its kinda funny how every1 hates dusty but every1 that plays for him loves him

its kinda funny how that isn't even close to being true

http://fpbaseballoutsider.blogspot.com/2011/02/how-manager-knows-hes-lost-his-team.html

[brm7675]

A) EV pitched like an ace before TJ and nobody disagrees that he has the stuff to be a #1, but EV just wasn't able to pull it together. EV has some serious talent, and there is no reason to think that after enough recovery time post TJ that he wouldn't be able to pitch well. I don't understand how that is a bad "tone." Yea, the wheels fell off, but when the guy hits his locations, he's incredible, the rule of thumb is give a pitcher 100+ innings post TJ before you make a judgment, regardless of time after surgery. MLB innings are different than throwing bullpen sessions or ST.

When is the key. And if you watch him you can see that he is not ready. They rushed him back last year, they didn't give him the chance to prepar this ST due to visa issues and then they refused to accept he wasn't ready this season till he mouthed off to the press. Bad decision on him by all parties involved.

B)I would love to hear you explain Dusty's "abuse" of Chapman's arm. Chapman's problems are rooted in location of pitches, not this "abuse" you seem to be trying to point at. When you are throwing 100mph with the mechanics he uses, your control is going to be tough. Not Dusty's fault there.

There was a stretch where he pitched him like 5 out of 6 games and he had arm issues and had to be sat for something like 4-5 nights without being used. He had very little time to learn how to work out of the bullpen by this franchise. Again bad decisions all the way around.

C)Dusty hasn't left guys in when they're gassed. Please read, maybe this will quell people's constant criticisms towards Dusty with regard to overusing pitchers: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13948

Just watch and you can see where pitchers should be pulled and he lets them go. He has zero ability to handle a pitching staff at all and history reflects that.

D&E)Regarding Dusty batting the SS second, the years in the past aren't the issue. OCab may not have been the ideal #2, but he got the job done, and we ended up with the best offense in the NL and won the division. This year he tried it a few times with Janish/Renteria, and it didn't work. Again, notice he hasn't been batting the SS there as of late.

Come on the SS position has hit 2nd this year more then any other position. Dusty has pre printed lineup cards with the CF and SS hitting 1-2...

F)I am not trying to say Gomes is great or the best LF option we have, but if he can hit .250 with power, he isn't that bad of an option. Yes you want more out of LF, but Gomes's OPS that usually corresponds with a .250 avg isn't usually too bad. Gomes's appeal is his attitude and presence in the club house. Dusty figures that if Jonny can hit .250 with power, he is playable in LF and he can add that presence to the clubhouse that I think can be underrated. But believe me, I don't think he is our best LF option, I just think from the point of view of the manager, it can make sense.

Johnny can't hit. Johnny has never been able to hit. He had like a few stretches last season and like the first week of this season where he hit, otherwise HE CAN'T HIT. I don't give a rats butt what he is in the clubhouse, when you have BETTER choices to play LF then you play the better chocies...the object of the game is to win...not make players feel good...

[BAKER12]

Last year we won despite Dusty. Early on this year it appears that this will not happen. I think its time to cut our losses. Fire Dusty.

Examples please

[smixsell]

To the naysayers....... "Told ya so!......over 2 months ago!"

[brm7675]

Examples please

Simple, last year basically everything went right, players had great seasons, no one really struggled and we caught a ton of breaks so even when Dusty did screw up, the team was able to overcome it and they built "mo" off of winning. NOW when you must have your manager make nothing but right move after right move to over ride the injuries, lack of development of key players, down years by aging vets and such we see Dusty can't do it or look at it like this...

In a car race if the car operates perfectly and the drive has a clean race then the small flaws of engine design or pit crews doesn't impact that much, but if the car is struggling with engine problems and such and the driver doesn't get a clean race, even the smallest mistake by his pit crew and Pit boss can make the diffence between finishing first or 5th or farther back.

[Hey Meat]

I have been saying this for months. Dusty is just sitting on his hands. It is time to fire him now. The other day's attempted bunt for Cairo with 2 strikes should have been the opportunity for Walt to can him. What else does the front office need to see to fire him. Swept at home by the Mets who just traded away their marquee player! Fire him now and cut your losses Walt.

[R_Webb18]

from org

Quote:
Announcement coming tomorrow. Baker out, Morgan likely in until the end of the season.
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/...73816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

so maybe you get your wish. lol

[brm7675]

from org

Quote:
Announcement coming tomorrow. Baker out, Morgan likely in until the end of the season.
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/...73816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

so maybe you get your wish. lol

No way, Morgan has said in the past he wants no part of on field managing, I would be shocked if Morgan is the choice. My bet would be that Chris Speir the present bench coach would be the "interm" guy. Also why wait till tomorrow?

[R_Webb18]

No way, Morgan has said in the past he wants no part of on field managing, I would be shocked if Morgan is the choice. My bet would be that Chris Speir the present bench coach would be the "interm" guy. Also why wait till tomorrow?

it might not even be true. so idk

[dcameron24]

from org

Quote:
Announcement coming tomorrow. Baker out, Morgan likely in until the end of the season.
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/...73816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

so maybe you get your wish. lol

That guy was right on the Cozart call up like a day before it happened...

But he also said Renteria was being DFA'd as part of the call up...:confused:

[bshall2105]

from org

Quote:
Announcement coming tomorrow. Baker out, Morgan likely in until the end of the season.
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28/...73816763301888

This is the same guy who reported the Cozart promotion about 24 hours before any other information. He has deleted all of those tweets, and is obviously a pretty cryptic and loose "source" of information regarding Reds news, but I thought this would be worth bringing up.

so maybe you get your wish. lol

I would be stunned if this happened. I don't buy it.

[keeftone]

I'm not sure why ANY team would hire Dusty in the first place. The guy has terrible judgment. Anyone who has seen a small child get hit by a baseball in the bleachers at a Little League game would know NOT to let your THREE YEAR OLD in the dugout, let alone on the field during live action during a World Series game. It's about like telling your kid to run out into the street in front of a car. Yet Dusty never said he was wrong, or it was stupid, just that his "mama" called him and chewed him out. Just like today he said the "bullpen wasn't ready". Whose job is it to get it ready? The man has bad judgment, and can never admit he is wrong.

[brm7675]

I'm not sure why ANY team would hire Dusty in the first place. The guy has terrible judgment. Anyone who has seen a small child get hit by a baseball in the bleachers at a Little League game would know NOT to let your THREE YEAR OLD in the dugout, let alone on the field during live action during a World Series game. It's about like telling your kid to run out into the street in front of a car. Yet Dusty never said he was wrong, or it was stupid, just that his "mama" called him and chewed him out. Just like today he said the "bullpen wasn't ready". Whose job is it to get it ready? The man has bad judgment, and can never admit he is wrong.

Why? He took the Giants to the WS, took the Cubs to the Playoffs and now took the Reds to the playoffs...that's why...

[demas863]

Sadly he's Castellini's guy and he's not going to admit he screwed up let alone take the financial hit. Walt never wanted two-yr. contract. Walt deserves his own guy. Morgan?

[brm7675]

Sadly he's Castellini's guy and he's not going to admit he screwed up let alone take the financial hit. Walt never wanted two-yr. contract. Walt deserves his own guy. Morgan?

Don't think Morgan is interested, how about Ryan Sandburg?

[smixsell]

Sadly he's Castellini's guy and he's not going to admit he screwed up let alone take the financial hit. Walt never wanted two-yr. contract. Walt deserves his own guy. Morgan?

IF that's still true then it's going to come down to either Dusty goes or Walt goes. Jocketty will not put up with being saddled with a manager as poor as Dusty.

For this reason I think that Dusty will be fired before the start of next season. Still, I would like to see Dusty gone yesterday, he's done nothing but damage our young talent with low expectations and utter lack of accountability

[smixsell]

Just a reminder that I've been saying this for months. Dusty is ruining this good group of young players.

[brm7675]

Just a reminder that I've been saying this for months. Dusty is ruining this good group of young players.

Well we are stuck with him for the next few years...:thumbdown:

[smixsell]

Well we are stuck with him for the next few years...:thumbdown:

I don't think so. I think the longest Dusty will last is the end of this season. :)

PS The thought of Dusty still at the helm next season is actually sickening. :( If he stays then I'll be forced to cancel my planned trips next year to Spring training for a week and to Cincinnati for a series. :thumbdown:

[redssince75]

how about Ryan Sandburg?

Who's that?

There's also a guy named Ryne Sandberg, but I don't want a cubbie managing my team.

[dthomas24]

Why? He took the Giants to the WS, took the Cubs to the Playoffs and now took the Reds to the playoffs...that's why...

I haven't really thought this through, but who really thinks anything through on these boards! Is Dusty's past success an effect of the steriod era? Did anyone really have to think about making major moves when Sosa/Alou/Lee/Rameriz and Bonds/Aurillia/Kent were hitting more homeruns than the Team USA slow pitch softball team? Did he just sit back and wait for these guys to out slug everyone else? Just throwing it out for discussion.;)

[brm7675]

I don't think so. I think the longest Dusty will last is the end of this season. :)

PS The thought of Dusty still at the helm next season is actually sickening. :( If he stays then I'll be forced to cancel my planned trips next year to Spring training for a week and to Cincinnati for a series. :thumbdown:

I wish I could agree, but Dusty will be back, the owner and GM will give multiple reasons why this season was a bust, none will be directed towards Dusty.

[Krawhitham]

If they fire Dusty we will get Joe Morgan which would be worse

just saying

[cinredsfan2000]

Just speculating here but isnt ozzie on the hot seat in chicago? Any chance if he was fired in chicago Bob would be intrested in him? :confused:Thats provided Dusty was let go

[R_Webb18]

Just speculating here but isnt ozzie on the hot seat in chicago? Any chance if he was fired in chicago Bob would be intrested in him? :confused:Thats provided Dusty was let go

plz no

[smixsell]

I wish I could agree, but Dusty will be back, the owner and GM will give multiple reasons why this season was a bust, none will be directed towards Dusty.

That's just for public consumption. Walt knows baseball and I'll wager my last dollar he is ITCHING to can Dusty.

[smixsell]

I haven't really thought this through, but who really thinks anything through on these boards! Is Dusty's past success an effect of the steriod era? Did anyone really have to think about making major moves when Sosa/Alou/Lee/Rameriz and Bonds/Aurillia/Kent were hitting more homeruns than the Team USA slow pitch softball team? Did he just sit back and wait for these guys to out slug everyone else? Just throwing it out for discussion.;)

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

[smixsell]

I would give Sweet and Power the interim managerial and pitching coach positions IMMEDIATELY and see how they do. I have a suspicion they will do very well.

PS I actually think that what minisc ulechance of turning the season around still exists, it would be more likely to turn around if Dusty were replaced.

[Mutaman]

If they fire Dusty we will get Joe Morgan which would be worse

just saying

Is there some message here I'm not picking up on? Why would Morgan be worse?

[Krawhitham]

Is there some message here I'm not picking up on? Why would Morgan be worse?

years of listening to him call games


If we are going to an EX Reds please make it Larkin

[Tuff Nut]

I would give Sweet and Power the interim managerial and pitching coach positions IMMEDIATELY and see how they do. I have a suspicion they will do very well.

PS I actually think that what minisc ulechance of turning the season around still exists, it would be more likely to turn around if Dusty were replaced.

Agree on all accounts. I've grown real tired of Dusty's act. If no changes are made to this team, we'll be having this same dicussion next season, after another woulda-coulda-shoulda year.

[smoke6]

Don't think Larkin would be a good fit at the helm (to start with anyway). I do think him as the hitting coach would be awesome. Nothing like #11 back in Cincy!

[redsrolen]

Dusty's too busy trying to win a popularity contest with the team! We need a manager that will kick a little a--! I heard BP talking about he was glad Dontrelle was here because he's tired of being the only one talking in the dugout. I think a great manager lifts the morale of his team in addition to the most important thing 'MAKING GOOD BASEBALL DECISIONS!!' We need a change, but not just any change, a really good mgr!

[Vottomatic]

I would give Sweet and Power the interim managerial and pitching coach positions IMMEDIATELY and see how they do. I have a suspicion they will do very well.

PS I actually think that what miniscule chance of turning the season around still exists, it would be more likely to turn around if Dusty were replaced.

I am in complete agreement with this idea.

Bothers me to no end that Krivsky got fired and Bob C. said "we're simply not going to lose anymore"..........but, but, but.........for some reason, Bob C can't see that Dusty is costing this team games, and probably fan attendance, with his dumb moves. Bob simply isn't willing to eat Dusty's contract, or this team might be "winning" again.

I'd fire Dusty and Jacoby now, and maybe Brian Price (although I blame Dusty more for the pitching woes than Price), and then bring up Sweet and any coaches he wants to bring up from triple A.

I would also be willing to make Chris Speier the interim manager (if he'd take it), but Jacoby has to go.

I want to retain Billy Hatcher. I just like that guy.

I definitely think this team needs a change in the coaching ranks. Send a frickin' message.

[BEETTLEBUG]

I agree git Dusty out and sack up the coaching staff also.

[smixsell]

BUMP :(

Are some of you Dusty defenders beginning to see the light? :eek:

[smixsell]

We seeing more and more as the season wears on exactly how a "no-discipline" and "no-plan" manager's effect on a ballclub gets more stale, rotten, and putrid as time passes.

Some players get lazier and lazier due to lack of discipline and accountability, and other players who actually want to win get more and more p*ssed off at stupid tactical decisions and the lack of discipline on the team.

Dusty is not the first "player's best buddy/no-brain manager" to manage, but we might still term what is happening to the Reds this season as "the Dusty effect."

And by the way folks, it will just get WORSE if he remains as our manager next year. So brace yourselves.

[webbbj]

bobby valentine

[Hey Meat]

It is time to get rid of Dusty NOW!.. I am tired of the whole "Players Coach" persona. Get him out of here and bring in some discipline and watch this team turn it around. These young players will never reach their full potential with Dusty.

[AintlifeGrande]

It aint all Dusty's fault.This team just does not have enough talent.When you roll the dice in the offseason not making any moves to upgrade,and hope aging vets can still contribute,you reap what you sew.I doubt there is a manager today who can turn this trainwreck around.And I dont feel a "Dave Miley"AAA experiment will just spark the team to win.Walt needs to shoulder alot of the blame.

[kfm]

BUMP :(

Are some of you Dusty defenders beginning to see the light? :eek:

No. The likelihood of fans who don't blame dusty for literally every lost suddenly to agree with the assessment of people who blame dusty for every lost is about as likely as you starting to agree with the people who don't blame dusty foe every lost. It is just not going to happen because both sides think the other side is either completely blind or just do not understand baseball or both. I watch most reds games and it seems pretty obvious to me why they don't win and that is because they just don't get enough hits with men on base especially in close games. After that or a part of that is because they have had a black hole offensively at third, left and short much of the year. On top of that Stubbs and Bruce are way too steaky offensively. Finally, they don't have anything close to a legitimate leadoff hitter on the roster or a true fourth place hitter. Not even to mention that ev and this boards selected ace wood are in the minors and homer bailey continues to be an enigma along with the worst season arroyos time with the reds. so asking fans to ignore all of this and just say it is dustys fault is like blaming Griffey and Dunn for the reds losing and ignoring the pitching staff those teams had, and we know no one would do that. Having said all that, maybe the team needs to be shaken up and the manager is typically the guy who has to go. However that would require walt to make a bold move and what is the likelihood of that?

[CrosleyField]

Not a Dusty hater or defender. He probably gets more blame than he should. A lot of people on this board complain about the double switches, its the National League, if the relief pitcher is due up in the next half inning, its probably going to be a double switch especially in the case of a long reliever.

People complain about not playing small ball or manufacturing runs, but when he bunts a pitcher to advance a runner and the top of the order doesn't deliver people complain that he is giving up an out by bunting.

My biggest complaint about Dusty is the Padres 18 inning game two years ago. He ran out of pitching and probably should have gone ahead and let an outfielder throw but he pitched Harang and Volquez each over 4.5 innings with very little rest. Harang never recovered that season.

My real point is if you hate Dusty, have a real reason.

[Red Raindog]

Not a Dusty hater or defender. He probably gets more blame than he should. A lot of people on this board complain about the double switches, its the National League, if the relief pitcher is due up in the next half inning, its probably going to be a double switch especially in the case of a long reliever.

People complain about not playing small ball or manufacturing runs, but when he bunts a pitcher to advance a runner and the top of the order doesn't deliver people complain that he is giving up an out by bunting.

My biggest complaint about Dusty is the Padres 18 inning game two years ago. He ran out of pitching and probably should have gone ahead and let an outfielder throw but he pitched Harang and Volquez each over 4.5 innings with very little rest. Harang never recovered that season.

My real point is if you hate Dusty, have a real reason.

Somewhat off topic --

My best friend is uncle to a pro golfer who counts Chris Carpenter (hate even typing his name) and Mark Prior as his best friends -- my friend tells me you can't get Prior to say a nice thing about Baker

[LeDoux]

Somewhat off topic --

My best friend is uncle to a pro golfer who counts Chris Carpenter (hate even typing his name) and Mark Prior as his best friends -- my friend tells me you can't get Prior to say a nice thing about Baker

I would like to see a poll of Dusty's former pitchers. My guess is that the pitchers generally would not see him as a "player's manager."

[powersackers]

I just had a really nice steak dinner at a restaurant. Should I thank the cook or the manager?

My answer: The manager

The cooks are replaceable, and the task of cooking the steak is quite easy.

But getting good management to hire and motivate (paycheck, benefits, butt-kickings) the cooks, is the hard part.

Dusty stinks at the hard part. But he does bring in some nice BBQ chicken on game days I hear, his cooks are happy - the steak is crap.

[smixsell]

It is time to get rid of Dusty NOW!.. I am tired of the whole "Players Coach" persona. Get him out of here and bring in some discipline and watch this team turn it around. These young players will never reach their full potential with Dusty.

Yep. I've been saying it since midway through last season.

[smixsell]

It aint all Dusty's fault.This team just does not have enough talent.When you roll the dice in the offseason not making any moves to upgrade,and hope aging vets can still contribute,you reap what you sew.I doubt there is a manager today who can turn this trainwreck around.And I dont feel a "Dave Miley"AAA experiment will just spark the team to win.Walt needs to shoulder alot of the blame.

Of course it's not ALL Dusty's fault. But at least 90% of whats wrong with this team is. And the "we just don't have enough talent" is total crap. We have more than enough talent, we just have an absolute "no accountability ass" for a manager. It will be proven in future years how much talent we had this year.

[smixsell]

I just had a really nice steak dinner at a restaurant. Should I thank the cook or the manager?

My answer: The manager

The cooks are replaceable, and the task of cooking the steak is quite easy.

But getting good management to hire and motivate (paycheck, benefits, butt-kickings) the cooks, is the hard part.

Dusty stinks at the hard part. But he does bring in some nice BBQ chicken on game days I hear, his cooks are happy - the steak is crap.

Spot on.

[kfm]

I just had a really nice steak dinner at a restaurant. Should I thank the cook or the manager?

My answer: The manager

The cooks are replaceable, and the task of cooking the steak is quite easy.

But getting good management to hire and motivate (paycheck, benefits, butt-kickings) the cooks, is the hard part.

Dusty stinks at the hard part. But he does bring in some nice BBQ chicken on game days I hear, his cooks are happy - the steak is crap.

Bad analogy. Cooking a steak is easy, hitting a baseball, and throwing strikes on the black are not. There are literally millions of people who can cook a steak, but how many can consistently hit a baseball. In the service world the cook is replaceable but in sports it is the manager, coach that is replaceable. No one is talking about firing Albert pujols or Joey votto but on their fan sites lots of people are talking about firing their managers despite their past success.

[Old NDN]

I feel Baker has "lost" this team. They don't seem motivated, continue to make fundamental mistakes, lacking effort and focus. The proof is in the results. Whether you believe this team has the talent to win and Dusty has screwed it up, or the team lacks the talent to win, somebody needs to go. It's been said many times before: "You can't fire a whole team." See ya Dusty.

[malcontent]

He should never have been hired in the first place, and should have been canned two years ago.

Just take what he did with the LF situation. Last year in what presumably was his "career year", Gomes OPSed 0.709 against RHP (current career OPS of 0.735 vs. RHP).

So what does Baker do? Install him as the everyday LF, of course. Even though one-half of RZers were fully against it. This year his OPS vs. RHP? 0.649.

I don't think Baker ever looks at stats beyond pitcher/batter matchups.

I don't think Baker ever spends any time familiarizing himself with the draft choices or their scouting reports.

I figure when one finally shows up in ST camp, he might ask a little about him then.

I would be shocked if Baker actually knew that Cozart was a 2nd rounder, for example.

I can't wait until he's history.

[Vottomatic]

I don't understand why they are letting him finish the season. See what some other manager in house can do, like Rick Sweet or let Rolen manage.

If they want to look outside the organization, fine.

[redsfanmia]

I don't think Baker ever spends any time familiarizing himself with the draft choices or their scouting reports.

I figure when one finally shows up in ST camp, he might ask a little about him then.

I would be shocked if Baker actually knew that Cozart was a 2nd rounder, for example.

I can't wait until he's history.

Dusty's job is to win at the major league level. Why should he care if Cozart was a second rounder or a sixty third rounder, his job is to put the major league players in the best position to win. I don't think he has done that this year but knowing the draft choices and minor league players is down on the list of Dusty's priorities.

[kfm]

Dusty's job is to win at the major league level. Why should he care if Cozart was a second rounder or a sixty third rounder, his job is to put the major league players in the best position to win. I don't think he has done that this year but knowing the draft choices and minor league players is down on the list of Dusty's priorities.

I have no idea why he should know, but more important I don't get why we should care if he knows or not. Hal Mcoy called him the most prepared reds manager he has ever covered, so maybe he does know.

[malcontent]

Dusty's job is to win at the major league level. Why should he care if Cozart was a second rounder or a sixty third rounder, his job is to put the major league players in the best position to win. I don't think he has done that this year but knowing the draft choices and minor league players is down on the list of Dusty's priorities.
It matters if he prevents moves that are obvious to 90% of RZ.

I think Jocketty listened to Baker and decided to wait.

I also think Jocketty may be getting closer to a decision on Baker's tenure as we argue.

[nux fan]

baker is a functional illiterate here is is typical quote

we needed that game big time, it was huge, it was big

the man is an abject cretin

[smixsell]

baker is a functional illiterate here is is typical quote

we needed that game big time, it was huge, it was big

the man is an abject cretin


Spot on.

The man has no plan, and is not even aware that he SHOULD have a plan!

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic. (like if he were managing any other team but my Reds, my talent-rich but rapidly being ruined Reds! :( )

[Krawhitham]

Unless the beat writers and radio hosts get on the train dusty will not be fired

[Redsfansince72]

maybe if they keep losing and attendance creeps even lower, that sends a message.. sadly the owner and GM are BLIND to the fact of this teams short comings..Sadly they will give excuses instead of being ticked about it!!

[malcontent]

Unless the beat writers and radio hosts get on the train dusty will not be fired
That is probably true.

Tonight was the last straw for me. Signing off of RZ.

I'll be back when Baker is gone. I just can't take it anymore.

We all knew he was going to bunt Willis. No matter that Dontrelle was hitting .429. Or that he has a career OPS of 0.711 against RHP. Or that this team has a proven way of turning potential rallies to dust. Gotta give up that out!

Over at ORG the Baker apologists are out in force. They're apparently OK with several more years of this. Unbelievable.

All I know is that if they think for a second that Baker will get the Reds back to the playoffs, they're delusional.

Adios for now, gents.

[bshall2105]

Unless the beat writers and radio hosts get on the train dusty will not be fired

Exactly, ESPN got Jim Tressel fired. I'll have to tweet Fay tomorrow to have him start the media frenzy.

[malcontent]

One last thing. A lot of people are saying that no manager could have won with this team. I totally disagree. A good manager could have this team still in contention. The Cardinals and Brewers were practically holding the door open for the Reds, waiting for them until about 3 weeks ago.

[smixsell]

That is probably true.

Tonight was the last straw for me. Signing off of RZ.

I'll be back when Baker is gone. I just can't take it anymore.

We all knew he was going to bunt Willis. No matter that Dontrelle was hitting .429. Or that he has a career OPS of 0.711 against RHP. Or that this team has a proven way of turning potential rallies to dust. Gotta give up that out!

Over at ORG the Baker apologists are out in force. They're apparently OK with several more years of this. Unbelievable.

All I know is that if they think for a second that Baker will get the Reds back to the playoffs, they're delusional.

Adios for now, gents.

Spot on. Baker's moves are so bad it makes it look like he is actually trying his hardest to lose the game. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.



One last thing. A lot of people are saying that no manager could have won with this team. I totally disagree. A good manager could have this team still in contention. The Cardinals and Brewers were practically holding the door open for the Reds, waiting for them until about 3 weeks ago.

A good manager WOULD have had the Reds 10 games in front by the end of June. Baker is so bad its SICKENING.

PS see you next year. Dusty WILL be fired in the offseason.

[Skreep]

Bad analogy. Cooking a steak is easy, hitting a baseball, and throwing strikes on the black are not. There are literally millions of people who can cook a steak, but how many can consistently hit a baseball. In the service world the cook is replaceable but in sports it is the manager, coach that is replaceable. No one is talking about firing Albert pujols or Joey votto but on their fan sites lots of people are talking about firing their managers despite their past success.

i take it you have never worked in a nice kitchen. you try to cook every steak to perfection while worrying about 40 other orders. you better thank the cook in that situation.

[nux fan]

dusty thinks the scoreboard is wrong

[malcontent]

Gotta point this out since the apologist excuses for Baker are apparently infinite in variety (and endless and formless as well).

Over on ORG Kc61 made the same point concerning the bunt that I did (but also observed that it was no sure thing with Ramon on 2B).

In response, people have suggested that bunting Willis the other night was no different than bunting Paul Janish.

And they would be right....except for the fact that Willis has a career OPS of 0.717 against RHP, only 126 points higher than Janish.

But the sorry reality is that Baker would bunt Babe Ruth if he happened to be on the mound that day.

It isn't bashing if it's true.

See you next year, smixsell (hopefully).

[kfm]

i take it you have never worked in a nice kitchen. you try to cook every steak to perfection while worrying about 40 other orders. you better thank the cook in that situation.

I am assuming you are not actually arguing that cooks are less fungible than MLB baseball players. How many mlbers are there, and how many cooks can make a good steak. You do the math.

[Skreep]

I am assuming you are not actually arguing that cooks are less fungible than MLB baseball players. How many mlbers are there, and how many cooks can make a good steak. You do the math.

that statement had nothing to do with baseball. just saying cooking a good steak with all the stress that comes with working in a busy kitchen is no easy task.

[Helms1]

He is just in over his head. This year is proof. That simple. Take a solid team with holes and a good manager makes a world of difference. He failed. Time to go.

[kfm]

that statement had nothing to do with baseball. just saying cooking a good steak with all the stress that comes with working in a busy kitchen is no easy task.

OK, I hear what you are saying. I bet you can make a mean steak, I know I can.

[Skreep]

OK, I hear what you are saying. I bet you can make a mean steak, I know I can.

i started working in restaurant kitchens when i was 12. got out a few years back due to the wife *****ing about the hours and wanting to go back to school to get a better job. extremely stressful but the greatest job in the world.

[kfm]

He is just in over his head. This year is proof. That simple. Take a solid team with holes and a good manager makes a world of difference. He failed. Time to go.

I am really trying hard to understand folks who feel this way. And I am not arguing that Dusty has done a good job but in order for this team to win, like it did last year, guys needed to hit in the clutch and pitch much better. Is it fair to say that in terms of what happens on the field this is why the reds are losing? Are you saying that if the manager was someone else that guys would hit better and pitch better? I am truly trying to understand your point of view.

[50YrRedsFan]

I am really trying hard to understand folks who feel this way. And I am not arguing that Dusty has done a good job but in order for this team to win, like it did last year, guys needed to hit in the clutch and pitch much better. Is it fair to say that in terms of what happens on the field this is why the reds are losing? Are you saying that if the manager was someone else that guys would hit better and pitch better? I am truly trying to understand your point of view.

The players definitely need to produce, be it hitting or pitching. But at the same time, the manager's job is to put the players on the field and make the decisions that give the team the best opportunity to win. There have been many times this year when Dusty's decisions have not given the team the best opportunity to win.....Not just my opinion, I'll bet.

[kfm]

The players definitely need to produce, be it hitting or pitching. But at the same time, the manager's job is to put the players on the field and make the decisions that give the team the best opportunity to win. There have been many times this year when Dusty's decisions have not given the team the best opportunity to win.....Not just my opinion, I'll bet.

So are you saying that if they hit and pitch the same way they have this year next year with a different manager that they would be in the race, in first place, second place or what. I know your opinion is shared by others, and I am trying to get it and I could truly care less who the manager is because I just don't know that it really matters all that much. I guess I just see a team that counted on guys to just progress did nothing in the offseason and the progression did not happen and the veterans hit the wall. I see holes at short, left, and third, pitchers who were counted on who have spent time in the minors, the continuing saga of homer bailey, the complete collapse of arroyo and starters who cannot eat up innings which causes the bullpen to be overused. But your point of view and many fans seems to be ignore all of this because it is all dusty. Please explain to me why none of this matters and it is all dusty baker.

[Skreep]

So are you saying that if they hit and pitch the same way they have this year next year with a different manager that they would be in the race, in first place, second place or what. I know your opinion is shared by others, and I am trying to get it and I could truly care less who the manager is because I just don't know that it really matters all that much. I guess I just see a team that counted on guys to just progress did nothing in the offseason and the progression did not happen and the veterans hit the wall. I see holes at short, left, and third, pitchers who were counted on who have spent time in the minors, the continuing saga of homer bailey, the complete collapse of arroyo and starters who cannot eat up innings which causes the bullpen to be overused. But your point of view and many fans seems to be ignore all of this because it is all dusty. Please explain to me why none of this matters and it is all dusty baker.

BOOM BABY

[nux fan]

yeah bat the centerfielder first and shortstop second

I bet if Baker were managing the 67 Cards he would bat Dal Maxvill second

[kfm]

yeah bat the centerfielder first and shortstop second

I bet if Baker were managing the 67 Cards he would bat Dal Maxvill second

So you believe if someone else batted first and second all these other issues would go away? For the record currently left field bats first and at the beginning of the season 2b batted second along with left field, right field and at the end of last year 2b and ss switched back and forth batting first and second. For the record who do you think should have been batting first and second this year.

[nux fan]

the players with the best on base per centage so maybe occasionally some one could be on base ahead of votto, there that sounds radical doesn;t it

[smixsell]

He is just in over his head. This year is proof. That simple. Take a solid team with holes and a good manager makes a world of difference. He failed. Time to go.

Spot on. And a BAD manager also makes a world of difference.

[smixsell]

So are you saying that if they hit and pitch the same way they have this year next year with a different manager that they would be in the race, in first place, second place or what. I know your opinion is shared by others, and I am trying to get it and I could truly care less who the manager is because I just don't know that it really matters all that much. I guess I just see a team that counted on guys to just progress did nothing in the offseason and the progression did not happen and the veterans hit the wall. I see holes at short, left, and third, pitchers who were counted on who have spent time in the minors, the continuing saga of homer bailey, the complete collapse of arroyo and starters who cannot eat up innings which causes the bullpen to be overused. But your point of view and many fans seems to be ignore all of this because it is all dusty. Please explain to me why none of this matters and it is all dusty baker.

FOR EXAMPLE --Batting your second best RBI and career clutch RBI guy (Hernandez) 8th while batting 3 vastly inferior hitters and run producers 5-6 and 7th. And that's just one of 100+ moronic things Dusty does routinely. When one of your best hitters is batting 8th and guys with seroius holes in their swings are batting 4-5 and 6 IT IS GOINGTO AFFECT "how the team hits w RISP.' DUHHHHHHHH!!!!!! It's almost like taking one of your best hitters and RBI guys out of the lineup, sticking him in the 8 hole.

[nux fan]

he is an abject cretin, if heisey hits two homers in a game the next game he sits, he bats janish second for most of the year, he refuses to bring in a closer in a tie game (Mariano Rivera is frequently brought in during tie games) In short he is pathetic he does not answer questions with any depth, his most profound quotes are

It was huge
It was big
Johnny was dealing

[kfm]

FOR EXAMPLE --Batting your second best RBI and career clutch RBI guy (Hernandez) 8th while batting 3 vastly inferior hitters and run producers 5-6 and 7th. And that's just one of 100+ moronic things Dusty does routinely. When one of your best hitters is batting 8th and guys with seroius holes in their swings are batting 4-5 and 6 IT IS GOINGTO AFFECT "how the team hits w RISP.' DUHHHHHHHH!!!!!! It's almost like taking one of your best hitters and RBI guys out of the lineup, sticking him in the 8 hole.

I think this is a very fair criticism and one that I would agree with. Although I am curious as to the guys who are the 4,5, and 6 guys are who should be batting much later in the lineup. Additionally, while I agree with you that Hernandez should bat higher, you understand that he is a part time player and can not solve the entire teams inability to hit in the clutch in close games.

[kfm]

he is an abject cretin, if heisey hits two homers in a game the next game he sits, he bats janish second for most of the year, he refuses to bring in a closer in a tie game (Mariano Rivera is frequently brought in during tie games) In short he is pathetic he does not answer questions with any depth, his most profound quotes are

It was huge
It was big
Johnny was dealing

So if he spoke better, the team would be better. I am not sure that Janish has batted second most of the year, but while I understand why he does this I am not crazy about the idea. Having said that, it seems whenever I ask people with your perspective to help me understand Dusty's responisbility for the teams performance vs the holes that most reds fans can see are on this team I get a response like this that ignores the holes and resorts to name calling. Probably not the most effective way to champion a point of view. And this is precisely why fans like me, while not crazy about Dusty and the media just don't get what you see

[nux fan]

his decisions are farcical I dont have the energy to list all the missteps, Starting Volquez in game one of the payoffs when Volquez had been inconsistent, starting volquez on opening day, starting bolvques fiftenn times, just read the box scores each day and see how inept your hero is

[Skreep]

his decisions are farcical I dont have the energy to list all the missteps, Starting Volquez in game one of the payoffs when Volquez had been inconsistent, starting volquez on opening day, starting bolvques fiftenn times, just read the box scores each day and see how inept your hero is

So its dustys decision to keep him up here? or should have dusty have sat him each time, making all of the other starter go 4 days inbetween starts, and have you cry about ruining arms? which is it?

[nux fan]

your ridiculous points are absurd it should not be my job to show you, a blind oaf that dusty is good , why dont you make the case that he ia anything other than a senescent loser

How about squeezing on a 2-2 count
how about wasting the first two weeks of the season with an ineffective masset
howq about coutless times he lets the pitcher hit only to remove the same pitcher next inning
how about sitting a hot batter the next day
how about using chapman in a game they are up by five runs and using ondurszak when they are tied

I dont need to convince you that your misplaced idolatry is puerile, go read a book

[Skreep]

your ridiculous points are absurd it should not be my job to show you, a blind oaf that dusty is good , why dont you make the case that he ia anything other than a senescent loser

How about squeezing on a 2-2 count
One mistake and i keep hearing about it

how about wasting the first two weeks of the season with an ineffective masset
So giving a pitcher who was pitched very well last season two weeks to try and work the kinks out was a mistake? lol

howq about coutless times he lets the pitcher hit only to remove the same pitcher next inning
I have seen him do this with Willis, which is one of the better hitters on the team, and maybe Leake a few times who is still a good hitter. Are you seriously one of the people who complain about using Willis to hit?

how about sitting a hot batter the next day
Heisey is a fastball hitter who sucks with breaking balls. Some people dont understand that when he has a hot game against a fastball pitcher, and the next day the pitcher throws mainly breaking balls, it wouldnt be wise to put him out there.

how about using chapman in a game they are up by five runs and using ondurszak when they are tied
Before ondrusek struggled, he was one of the best relievers in the majors. He came in and pitched lights out in many tied situations. but then he has one or two bad outings and all of sudden dusty is an idiot for bringing him in.

I dont need to convince you that your misplaced idolatry is puerile, go read a book

Please look at stats before you post. looking at a thesaurus before you post does not make you look smarter.

[nux fan]

he is the base the most sagacious manager ever you are so lucky to have his plantar fascia to lick for the rest of your life

[Skreep]

he is the base the most sagacious manager ever you are so lucky to have his plantar fascia to lick for the rest of your life

Bip or RP. which are you?

[nux fan]

willis was not up til July Bakers always bats the idiotic pitcher in the middle of a rally then removes him

Then he brings in a guy in the 7th even if the guy pitches a 1-2-3 inning he then brings in someone else

He tinkers without a plan he micromanages without strategy and he is ignorant of all the statistical advances that have been made since Ty Cobb had a good instinct for the game, in short just like you, he has had his cerebrospinal fluid replaced with the output of what comes from a kidney

[Skreep]

willis was not up til July Bakers always bats the idiotic pitcher in the middle of a rally then removes him

Then he brings in a guy in the 7th even if the guy pitches a 1-2-3 inning he then brings in someone else

He tinkers without a plan he micromanages without strategy and he is ignorant of all the statistical advances that have been made since Ty Cobb had a good instinct for the game, in short just like you, he has had his cerebrospinal fluid replaced with the output of what comes from a kidney

care to back anything you have said with proof?

[nux fan]

you prove that he is a good manager you dolt

[Skreep]

you prove that he is a good manager you dolt

never claimed he was. but i do enjoy proving wrong all the reasons people use to claim he is a bad manager. Now see if i went out and claimed he was good, i would show proof of why i think he is.

[nux fan]

stop wasting everyones time go ingest some sarin

[Helms1]

Who here can tell when Cordero is going to blow a save? You know, that feeling of pain in the pit of your stomach when you see him pitch to the first batter and he cannot get the breaking ball over the plate and he is going to have to rely solely on that laser straight fastball. Same with Masset and control. I know, I know, not based in statistics or facts, but it seems to me the manager is in the best position to have a "feel" for the situation and what the player is likely to do moving forward. Clearly much better than I could ever hope to have 500 miles away on the couch. When you throw away the things we have talked about on the thread with lineups, statistics, game situations, I just seem to get the "feel" that Dusty does not have the correct "feel" for this team and how he should manage them. I think intuition and feel are not magical senses but the result of watching players and situations over and over until the likely outcome is not a function of statistics but the response of the specific player that has been embedded into your mind by repetition from observation. I just don't see evidence that Dusty has that with these players, and to some extent that may be due to not being willing or able to put in the time.

[Skreep]

stop wasting everyones time go ingest some sarin

i'll take that as an admission that you are nothing but a worthless troll. good job, you were pretty easy to expose.

[Gallen5862]

This thread needs to get back onto the topic. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. This is a reminder to everyone.

[nux fan]

janish batting second tonight a brilliant move by the huge skipper

[DocRed]

Dusty Baker makes Mensa members looks like simpletons....

[Skreep]

This lineup is sucking tonight. stupid manager

[kfm]

Dusty Baker makes Mensa members looks like simpletons....

Wouldn't that mean he is really smart?

[Skreep]

Wouldn't that mean he is really smart?

I have been waiting to see if someone else caught that

[nux fan]

you like janish batting second he has great bat dexterity can hit to the opposite field and is a fine hit and rin man, just a brilliant move by the formaldehyde manager

[Skreep]

you like janish batting second he has great bat dexterity can hit to the opposite field and is a fine hit and rin man, just a brilliant move by the formaldehyde manager

they scored 13 runs. obviously something worked.

[mr. red]

they scored 13 runs. obviously something worked.

How many hits, runs, RBI did Janish have? 5 ABs with a K and 2 LOB. Only starter not named Homer Bailey that didn't get a hit.

[Skreep]

How many hits, runs, RBI did Janish have? 5 ABs with a K and 2 LOB. Only starter not named Homer Bailey that didn't get a hit.

your point? You act like any other member of the team or every other person in the majors has never had a day where they didnt get a hit

[mr. red]

your point? You act like any other member of the team or every other person in the majors has never had a day where they didnt get a hit

Just saying that when you say "something worked" it definitely wasn't Janish batting 2nd. Janish should be batting 8th any time he is in the lineup.

[Skreep]

Just saying that when you say "something worked" it definitely wasn't Janish batting 2nd. Janish should be batting 8th any time he is in the lineup.

i'm thinking dusty was told by the FO to give him a chance in the following weeks. If he gets better and shows there is something to save, he'll be back next year. If he still struggles through his remaining chances, hes done.

With him batting second, thats his chance to see the best pitches. no one is going to try and throw around him with votto coming up next. Whoever is batting second should see the best pitches out of any other spot in the lineup. Thats one reason why i think janish and renteria have been batting there.

[nux fan]

brilliant reasoning no matter what happens you blame the front office, then why do you thin baker is good you prove it , I dont need to prove Baker is abysmal , it is called res ipsi loquitor, the deed speaks for itself

[Vottomatic]

How many hits, runs, RBI did Janish have? 5 ABs with a K and 2 LOB. Only starter not named Homer Bailey that didn't get a hit.

SS always bats second. It's Bakermetrics.

[nux fan]

do you think he would bat ed brinkman or ray oyler second

[texasdave]

i'm thinking dusty was told by the FO to give him a chance in the following weeks. If he gets better and shows there is something to save, he'll be back next year. If he still struggles through his remaining chances, hes done.

With him batting second, thats his chance to see the best pitches. no one is going to try and throw around him with votto coming up next. Whoever is batting second should see the best pitches out of any other spot in the lineup. Thats one reason why i think janish and renteria have been batting there.

Why would you want your worst hitters seeing the best pitches? If it is true that whoever hits in front of Votto is going to see the best pitches put someone there that might actually do something with those pitches.
Why would you want to evaluate Janish in the 2-hole to begin with? If he is with the team next season hopefully he will be down in the 8-hole. Wouldn't it make more sense to evaluate him in the role that he is going to play?

[Skreep]

brilliant reasoning no matter what happens you blame the front office, then why do you thin baker is good you prove it , I dont need to prove Baker is abysmal , it is called res ipsi loquitor, the deed speaks for itself

never said baker was good. i was simply giving my opinion with why he is still seeing playing time. the fact is, renteria is only signed through this year. Unless there is someone out there they are looking to sign, one of them is coming back next year. They would rather have janish start to play better and bring him back since he makes 1/4th what renteria makes.

so once again, never said baker was good and just offered my opinion on why janish was playing (see how i used facts to back up my opinion?). You should try it some time. it might give you a shred of credibility

[Skreep]

Why would you want your worst hitters seeing the best pitches? If it is true that whoever hits in front of Votto is going to see the best pitches put someone there that might actually do something with those pitches.
Why would you want to evaluate Janish in the 2-hole to begin with? If he is with the team next season hopefully he will be down in the 8-hole. Wouldn't it make more sense to evaluate him in the role that he is going to play?

this is where me and other people differ. I hate batting the worst hitter in the 8th spot. i would rather have him in the 7th than 8th. If you have him in the 8th, then your pitcher in the 9th (Which is usually a terrible hitting pitcher), you are almost giving the other team two free outs. If you have two outs, and your 8th batter is terrible, and fails to reach, you are leading off the next inning with a pitcher. Splitting the two spots with a decent hitter almost gaurantees you put a runner in scoring position if the 8th gets on base with less than two outs. that wont happen as often if you have someone batting .220.

[nux fan]

you offer no facts just a worn out puerile opinion on why the mental case bats janish second, lets see if your theory holds water elsewhere, go find a line up where the teams lowest batting average regular bats second

[Skreep]

you offer no facts just a worn out puerile opinion on why the mental case bats janish second, lets see if your theory holds water elsewhere, go find a line up where the teams lowest batting average regular bats second

Arizona, Florida, Pittsburgh, and thats without checking 10 other teams. Stats, use them

[nux fan]

do you actually make this nonsense up

Pittsburgh over the wekend batted X paul number 2 he is batting 267 a higher average than Alvarex, Ludwick

Arizona batted Parra second batting .293,

I have an idea continue to believe the infallibiliaty of Baker and dont bother with inaninties

[nux fan]

another egregious error by you Omar Infante bats second for Florida batting in the 270's

[Vottomatic]

Frickin' worst manager of my lifetime.

However he won all those games, the game has clearly passed him by. Senility must be settling in because he clearly does not make good decisions anymore.

Next manager please.

Jack McKeon at 80 years old has more brains than Dusty.

[Skreep]

another egregious error by you Omar Infante bats second for Florida batting in the 270's

whos batting second in the lineup today? someone batting .203?

[nux fan]

the regular player is injured , only someone with a glioblastoma would continually bat janish second

[BurgervilleBuck]

Arizona, Florida, Pittsburgh, and thats without checking 10 other teams. Stats, use them

I am really starting to like you. Stick around, Skreep. :)

[nux fan]

too bad he is wrong on every team and their second place hitter

[BurgervilleBuck]

Frickin' worst manager of my lifetime.
I can only assume you were born in 2008, when Baker was named manager. Otherwise, facts do not bear out your statement.

Dusty Baker: 279-276 Win% .503
Pete Mackanin: 41-39 Win% .515
Jerry Narron: 57-77 Win% .470
Dave Miley: 125-164 Win% .433
Bob Boone: 190-238 Win% .444
Jack McKeon: 291-259 Win% .529

[Vottomatic]

I can only assume you were born in 2008, when Baker was named manager. Otherwise, facts do not bear out your statement.

Dusty Baker: 279-276 Win% .503
Pete Mackanin: 41-39 Win% .515
Jerry Narron: 57-77 Win% .470
Dave Miley: 125-164 Win% .433
Bob Boone: 190-238 Win% .444
Jack McKeon: 291-259 Win% .529

Whatever dude. A figure of speech not to be taken literally. I love all you stat guys (sarcasm). Always having to use stats and other crap to make your point. Stats don't always tell the story. My eyes have seen more and tell me more than most of you young'uns.

By the way, I'm 46 years old. As told many times before, we had season tickets going back to Crosley Field and at Riverfront until the move to the new stadium. My dad bought our first color TV for the '75 playoffs.

Did any of those other managers have the talent Dusty has? You'd make a fool of yourself if you said yes.

Even McKeon didn't have this talent and he did much better. Kind of hard to win with Jimmy Haynes as your ace. Or Paul Wilson or Eric Milton. What a joke.

A good manager would do wonders for this team.

[BurgervilleBuck]

Whatever dude. A figure of speech not to be taken literally. I love all you stat guys (sarcasm). Always having to use stats and other crap to make your point. Stats don't always tell the story. My eyes have seen more and tell me more than most of you young'uns.

By the way, I'm 46 years old. As told many times before, we had season tickets going back to Crosley Field and at Riverfront until the move to the new stadium. My dad bought our first color TV for the '75 playoffs.

Did any of those other managers have the talent Dusty has? You'd make a fool of yourself if you said yes.

Even McKeon didn't have this talent and he did much better. Kind of hard to win with Jimmy Haynes as your ace. Or Paul Wilson or Eric Milton. What a joke.

A good manager would do wonders for this team.
I've never said Dusty is a good manager. I was just pointing out that you weren't letting facts influence your opinion at all.

Haters gonna hate, as the kids say.

PS Anyone who states how long they've been a fan are funny. See irrelevant conclusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Irrelevant_conclusion),

[Skreep]

too bad he is wrong on every team and their second place hitter

look at those teams lineups today. tell me im wrong.

Janish has started in the second spot in the lineup 8 times out of 121 games. but you for sure arent over-reacting

[smixsell]

Whatever dude. A figure of speech not to be taken literally. I love all you stat guys (sarcasm). Always having to use stats and other crap to make your point. Stats don't always tell the story. My eyes have seen more and tell me more than most of you young'uns.

By the way, I'm 46 years old. As told many times before, we had season tickets going back to Crosley Field and at Riverfront until the move to the new stadium. My dad bought our first color TV for the '75 playoffs.

Did any of those other managers have the talent Dusty has? You'd make a fool of yourself if you said yes.

Even McKeon didn't have this talent and he did much better. Kind of hard to win with Jimmy Haynes as your ace. Or Paul Wilson or Eric Milton. What a joke.

A good manager would do wonders for this team.

Spot on mate.

[smixsell]

his decisions are farcical I dont have the energy to list all the missteps, Starting Volquez in game one of the payoffs when Volquez had been inconsistent, starting volquez on opening day, starting bolvques fiftenn times, just read the box scores each day and see how inept your hero is

Spot on.

I too have neither the time nor the masochistic tendencies necessary to list "Mr. anti-logic's" innumerable errors. He is a tactician's worst nightmare. It makes me sick to write more than a line or two about him.:thumbdown:

[Old NDN]

As mentioned before, I'm not a Dusty fan, for multiple reasons. This team has major holes and has underperformed badly this season. Who's to blame? Dusty, Walt, players? Probably all of them. When this happens in most sports (except the Bengals), changes are made and the mgr./coach takes the fall. As the saying goes: "you can't fire the whole team". So Dusty: It's been real, bigtime.

[holster10]

Not sure if Dusty has to be fired but somebody should be out of the job for this really lousy season. If Hernandez isn't part of the future, anybody know why he still is still playing?

[panzecaz03]

thats just stupid. Because we have a bad season, all these fans jump on a bandwagon and blaming it all on Dusty. i see one bad thing, he likes, and plays, certain players who suck. EX: Johnny Gomes, Edgar.. They are terrible and dusty played them a lot more than what they should have for this season.

[nux fan]

only one bad thing he does not know how to play the right players, not too important for a manager

[smixsell]

His extremely poor handling of the pitching staff is a more serious flaw than his well known penchant for selecting a por lineup IMO. :( The game has passed him by.......WELL BY.

Now it's time to SAY BYE! :thumbdown:

[nux fan]

agree

[DocRed]

The train is gaining steam...CHOO CHOO!!!!!!

[smixsell]

Yes it is.

And I just want Dusty defenders to note, for the record, that I started this thread on MAY 26 I am not a "knee-jerker."

The Reds were in first or within a few games of first at that time. I saw how damaging Dusty's decisions were to the team as early as the middle of last season, and began to also see early this season HOW BAD HIS MAN MANAGEMNT STYLE (no accountability) WAS FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF YOUNG PLAYERS and predicted way back then that the longer Dusty remained at the helm the more stunted the young players growth would be and the more team chemistry would evaporate. AND EVAPORATE IT HAS.

Fire Dusty now before he does even more harm to the club's long term future by further ruining our bright young players. They need a manager who knows how the game should be played and insists that the young players learn to do it the right way or hit the highway.

[dthomas24]

thats just stupid. Because we have a bad season, all these fans jump on a bandwagon and blaming it all on Dusty. i see one bad thing, he likes, and plays, certain players who suck. EX: Johnny Gomes, Edgar.. They are terrible and dusty played them a lot more than what they should have for this season.

and Corey Patterson and Willy Tavarez and ...

[Skreep]

Yes it is.

And I just want Dusty defenders to note, for the record, that I started this thread on MAY 26 I am not a "knee-jerker."

The Reds were in first or within a few games of first at that time. I saw how damaging Dusty's decisions were to the team as early as the middle of last season, and began to also see early this season HOW BAD HIS MAN MANAGEMNT STYLE (no accountability) WAS FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF YOUNG PLAYERS and predicted way back then that the longer Dusty remained at the helm the more stunted the young players growth would be and the more team chemistry would evaporate. AND EVAPORATE IT HAS.

Fire Dusty now before he does even more harm to the club's long term future by further ruining our bright young players. They need a manager who knows how the game should be played and insists that the young players learn to do it the right way or hit the highway.

i saw FIRE DUSTY threads his first month into the season on other boards. i saw FIRE DUSTY threads the day after we clinched the division. some people will blame the manager no matter who is on the field or how we lose.

[nux fan]

and some people will defent the cretin regardless of his ineptitude

[Skreep]

and some people will defent the cretin regardless of his ineptitude

and some people will make up stuff to make him look bad, then make something else up when their original point was completely blown away with facts.

[smixsell]

i saw FIRE DUSTY threads his first month into the season on other boards. i saw FIRE DUSTY threads the day after we clinched the division. some people will blame the manager no matter who is on the field or how we lose.

Flawless "logic." :confused: Because some people's posts are moronic, therefore my post is moronic? :eek: You take the cake.

I posted a thread on May 26 that has turned out to be DEAD RIGHT. What I warned against has come to pass, and I am here to tell you that EVEN WORSE is coming unless Dusty is thrown out on his *ss this winter.

[Skreep]

Flawless "logic." :confused: Because some people's posts are moronic, therefore my post is moronic? :eek: You take the cake.

I posted a thread on May 26 that has turned out to be DEAD RIGHT. What I warned against has come to pass, and I am here to tell you that EVEN WORSE is coming unless Dusty is thrown out on his *ss this winter.

dead right? please show me how you were dead right. I CANT WAIT!!!!

[smixsell]

dead right? please show me how you were dead right. I CANT WAIT!!!!

Read the original post dimwit.

[Skreep]

Read the original post dimwit.

you mean that heavily opinionated piece of crap you called an original post? good job with supporting anything you have said in this entire thread with something factual.

[nux fan]

he probably thought the scoreboard was wrong

[FireDusty]

you mean that heavily opinionated piece of crap you called an original post? good job with supporting anything you have said in this entire thread with something factual.
No matter how much man love you have for Dusty Baker, he will be fired during this offseason, or after next.

Nothing you can do Chico. The train has already left the station.

[Skreep]

No matter how much man love you have for Dusty Baker, he will be fired during this offseason, or after next.

Nothing you can do Chico. The train has already left the station.

im not a dusty fan, i just like making people like you look stupid.

[nux fan]

you are making yourself look egregiously asinine

[Skreep]

you are making yourself look egregiously asinine

its fun having an alt isnt it?

[TheBigLebowski]

its fun having an alt isnt it?

I hate to do it again, but I think you're going to make me take advantage of the ignore function. It's not that I really disagree with what you say; it's how you say it. You're abrasive and irritating and you improve my experience here in no way, shape or form. So I bid you farewell.

[Skreep]

I hate to do it again, but I think you're going to make me take advantage of the ignore function. It's not that I really disagree with what you say; it's how you say it. You're abrasive and irritating and you improve my experience here in no way, shape or form. So I bid you farewell.

oh noez, please dont ignore me. and please dont tell me before hand. if people continue to be stupid and try to make a false point just be repeating the same thing over and over again, then i will continue being a dick to them.

[nux fan]

maybe he is not really ignoring you maybe his scoreboard is wrong, try putting on the squeeze play with a 2-2 count perhaps you will augment your chance of success

[Skreep]

maybe he is not really ignoring you maybe his scoreboard is wrong, try putting on the squeeze play with a 2-2 count perhaps you will augment your chance of success

or maybe he is going to somehow destroy the bullpens arms by making them pitch less this season than any other season in their careers

[nux fan]

yes he does a great job with the bullpen using two or three pitchers per half inning, using Chapman for onebatter, pitching Chapman wirh the score is 6-1, leaving in Masset so that Masset can get those tough outs at home plate, , using Arredondo in high leverage situations with his pinpoint control of 6 walks per nine innings, in short Baker is a bullpen MENSA, his exploits are only appreciated by the elite, few like yourself as well as the other members of Bedlam

[Skreep]

yes he does a great job with the bullpen using two or three pitchers per half inning, using Chapman for onebatter, pitching Chapman wirh the score is 6-1, leaving in Masset so that Masset can get those tough outs at home plate, , using Arredondo in high leverage situations with his pinpoint control of 6 walks per nine innings, in short Baker is a bullpen MENSA, his exploits are only appreciated by the elite, few like yourself as well as the other members of Bedlam

now there you go. if you would just use certain situations to back up your claims instead of making blanket statements that can be easily proven wrong, then i would have no reason to think you know nothing. I never said he doesnt mismanage, but when someone like you claims "Dusty is overusing the bullpen", and then i prove completely the opposite, i tend to think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[nux fan]

you have "proved" nothing, relying on innings pitched brings no meat to the query of whether the flaming moron is using his tools correctly,, just because he rotates incompetence, and thus keeps their innings down does not mean he is not "overutilizing the wrong parts in the wrong situations

Since the all star break Ondruzek, Masset and Bray have nbeen garbage, while Chapman has been stellar, sow hy use chapman for one third of an inning, please dont bother to answer I dont care one iota what you think,

[Skreep]

you have "proved" nothing, relying on innings pitched brings no meat to the query of whether the flaming moron is using his tools correctly,, just because he rotates incompetence, and thus keeps their innings down does not mean he is not "overutilizing the wrong parts in the wrong situations

Since the all star break Ondruzek, Masset and Bray have nbeen garbage, while Chapman has been stellar, sow hy use chapman for one third of an inning, please dont bother to answer I dont care one iota what you think,

OndruSek has had 12 appearances since the ASB, and in 4 of them he has given up an earned run, and his walks havent been a problem. Bray has only had a few bad outings, and it took 12 appearances before his ERA was higher than it was pre-ASB. hes had two outings where he failed to get the out he was called in to do. so your observations of them being garbage are just that, garbage.

so you go back to using blanket statements, and using one example is apparently enough to qualify everything you say as fact.

[nux fan]

ondruselk aug 7 th 1/3 inning 2 hits 3 runs
august 1st 0 innings 2 hits i run
July 28 1 inning 1 hit 2 walks
JUly 27 1/3 inning 3 hits 2 runs

do you like that performance

[Skreep]

ondruselk aug 7 th 1/3 inning 2 hits 3 runs
august 1st 0 innings 2 hits i run
July 28 1 inning 1 hit 2 walks
JUly 27 1/3 inning 3 hits 2 runs

do you like that performance

:eek: 4 outings for a player who's last name you cant spell? how are those stats compared to chapmans line today?

[nux fan]

so whats your point, and if you want to debate lexiciography, you will be clearly out gunned

[Skreep]

so whats your point, and if you want to debate lexiciography, you will be clearly out gunned

:laugh::laugh:

You go from typing a paragraph filled with typos and terrible use of punctuation, to looking through an online thesaurus in a feeble attempt to sound educated. Its a troll routine and a bad one at that.

[FireDusty]

im not a dusty fan, i just like making people like you look stupid.But you just make yourself look stupid.

Your narcissism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism) is playing tricks on your mind there Chico.

[redcat]

Dusty doesn't mis-use a bullpen, he just doesn't know how to adequately use one.

He gets too tied up in the lefty-lefty and righty-righty matchups and moving switch hitters from one side of the plate to the other to look out and see who is getting the job done and who isn't.

[smixsell]

Dusty doesn't mis-use a bullpen, he just doesn't know how to adequately use one.

He gets too tied up in the lefty-lefty and righty-righty matchups and moving switch hitters from one side of the plate to the other to look out and see who is getting the job done and who isn't.

Spot on. Whether a pitcher is throwing well on a given night (ie has good stuff and good command) or is in a streak of good or poor form is often much more important than looking at "matchup stats." Dusty appears to be completely ignorant of this, as he will trot out pitchers who are in a prolonged slump in the MOST critical situations. He also makes the mistake of running through the whole bullpen in 3 innings, essentially making sure that we'll have at least one reliever who is not on his game pitch us into trouble or into defeat. He doesn't understand that you should generally leave a reliever in (up to his typical endurance limit) when he has his good stuff and good command. Unfortunately Dusty will often yank a reliever after facing 1-2 batters no matter how "ON" the pitcher is. He will also leave in a reliever who is struggling way to long. TIP -- when a reliever has been struggling for a week or 2 and he walks the first batter on 4 pitches YOU YANK HIM, you dont let him pitch to, and put on base (Masset), the next 3 hitters. :eek:

[nux fan]

perfectly stated

[50YrRedsFan]

Besides Dusty's questionable handling of pitchers, even with our current injuries, there has been no improvement in this team's performance as the year has progressed. It has actually regressed. Just like when a player is traded to another team because he didn't live up to expectations, and then plays like an All Star for the new team, people say a change of scenery was needed to turn the players' performance around. That's where we are with Dusty....WE need a change of managers (and coaches for that matter) to turn our performance around. We aren't going anywhere until we do.

[nux fan]

bases loaded votton on bench team trailing toothpick brain lets janish come to the plate, but yet he tells his team that they should try to keep winning

[smixsell]

Bump.

Time to alllow Baker to quietly "choose to retire" to spend more time with his family, in return for paying him like 75% of his salary in the last year of his contract.

Francona anyone?

[brm7675]

Bump.

Time to alllow Baker to quietly "choose to retire" to spend more time with his family, in return for paying him like 75% of his salary in the last year of his contract.

Francona anyone?

Why would francona want to come here?

[nux fan]

he would want to come here to manage stubbs the great potential lead off hitter

to manage arroyo who is just coming into his prime and who will "bounce back" according to you

[smixsell]

he would want to come here to manage stubbs the great potential lead off hitter

to manage arroyo who is just coming into his prime and who will "bounce back" according to you

Yep. You heard it here. :)

[smixsell]

Why would francona want to come here?

Great young talent and pushover local media.

[smixsell]

PS. I would love to be a GM sitting across the table from you guys, you don't know how to evaluate players to save your own lives. :)

[smixsell]

Not saying Francona would come, and don't even really know whether I would want him, never really followed the Sox and don't know jack about his managerial ability or style. Just wanted to say "fire Baker" one more time, and in a new way. :)

[brm7675]

he would want to come here to manage stubbs the great potential lead off hitter

to manage arroyo who is just coming into his prime and who will "bounce back" according to you

Yes..Stubbs has potential to be a very good player, not sure how YOU don't see that and as for Bronson, provide me any statiscal proof that says he can't, when 100% healthy be the pitcher he was in 2010? Do you not think athletes have off seasons?

[nux fan]

duane walker could be good too
paul householder also
tracy jones in addition
how about terry lee, greg tubbs, keith kessinger, terry mcgriff, those players are more like your hero

[bounty37h]

duane walker could be good too
paul householder also
tracy jones in addition
how about terry lee, greg tubbs, keith kessinger, terry mcgriff, those players are more like your hero

How many posts do we have to suffer through where you simply name past players? At least attempt a point please.

[smixsell]

duane walker could be good too
paul householder also
tracy jones in addition
how about terry lee, greg tubbs, keith kessinger, terry mcgriff, those players are more like your hero

I guess you feel the need to make stuff up. Sad really.

[texasdave]

How many posts do we have to suffer through where you simply name past players? At least attempt a point please.

I think the point being made is that there are a lot of players with 'potential' that never realize it out there. It is not unusual at all for a player to have success at first and then struggle once the league figures them out. And that Stubbs is going to be 27 next year. He should just be entering his prime and not being hooked up with a different hitting coach and "learning to hit" as one poster has posted ad nauseum. Can Stubbs make the necessary counter-adjustments? It is far from guaranteed. From my experience following baseball a lot more fall by the wayside than learn to excel.

[brm7675]

I think the point being made is that there are a lot of players with 'potential' that never realize it out there. It is not unusual at all for a player to have success at first and then struggle once the league figures them out. And that Stubbs is going to be 27 next year. He should just be entering his prime and not being hooked up with a different hitting coach and "learning to hit" as one poster has posted ad nauseum. Can Stubbs make the necessary counter-adjustments? It is far from guaranteed. From my experience following baseball a lot more fall by the wayside than learn to excel.

You are 100% correct, we don't know, but to disguard Stubbs after just two seasons in the major leagues with one being good and one being bad is just not smart baseball.

[texasdave]

You are 100% correct, we don't know, but to disguard Stubbs after just two seasons in the major leagues with one being good and one being bad is just not smart baseball.

Stubbs does have one added advantage. Since he was a first round pick he will be afforded every opportunity.

[brm7675]

Stubbs does have one added advantage. Since he was a first round pick he will be afforded every opportunity.

He is also cheap, and given the monies the Reds have tied up in other "key" players that goes a long way.

[smixsell]

I think the point being made is that there are a lot of players with 'potential' that never realize it out there. It is not unusual at all for a player to have success at first and then struggle once the league figures them out. And that Stubbs is going to be 27 next year. He should just be entering his prime and not being hooked up with a different hitting coach and "learning to hit" as one poster has posted ad nauseum. Can Stubbs make the necessary counter-adjustments? It is far from guaranteed. From my experience following baseball a lot more fall by the wayside than learn to excel.

OK got it. But what you don't seem to get is that I was right about those guys and am likely to be right about Stubbs (and Leake, and Arroyo).

Stubb's most likely outcome is a future all star.

Tremendous speed, great bat speed, great throwing arm (all ++ to +++) He needs polish in getting his jumps on the ball in Center, but will likely improve in this area.

The BIG thing he needs to do is get some coaching re: becoming more of a line drive and opposite field hitter and being a more professional hitter, NOT continuing in the Baker/Jacoby "see it and try and jack it out of here" approach to hitting.

[Stray]

I don't think Stubbs will ever become a high average type of guy. He is what he is. He needs to get better in the areas that he really excels in. Like defense, he's above average with tremendous range and an amazing arm, but he has lapses out there. He gets to balls on the run that other CF's would need to lay out for. He walks a lot for a guy who seems to be confused at the plate...his stolen bases were pretty high this year, but I can't help but think he should have stolen more.

If he can be great in those areas it's a lot easier to deal with .250 and a buttload of Ks.

[redsfanmia]

Stubbs is Mike Cameron, just accept that.

[nux fan]

cameron was a way better fielder and wherever he went the team wins, stubbs is a dilute form of cameron all of the downside of striking out with less positives, cameron did not get worse each year

[Krawhitham]

Lets hope the Redsox want Dusty

[smixsell]

Lets hope the Redsox want Dusty

Don't tease us like that! :)

[smixsell]

I don't think Stubbs will ever become a high average type of guy. He is what he is. He needs to get better in the areas that he really excels in. Like defense, he's above average with tremendous range and an amazing arm, but he has lapses out there. He gets to balls on the run that other CF's would need to lay out for. He walks a lot for a guy who seems to be confused at the plate...his stolen bases were pretty high this year, but I can't help but think he should have stolen more.

If he can be great in those areas it's a lot easier to deal with .250 and a buttload of Ks.

Agree with everything except your conclusion that he will always hit .250. I think he will prove a .280-.300 hitter once he adopts the right approach (pobably after he gets traded to an organization with a decent manager and/or hitting coach) of staying back. just trying to drive the ball, and hitting to the opposite field a lot.

[brm7675]

cameron was a way better fielder and wherever he went the team wins, stubbs is a dilute form of cameron all of the downside of striking out with less positives, cameron did not get worse each year

wow basing this off of 1 season...incredible...:thumbup:

[Dew4192]

.........Before his lack of discipline, refusal to insist on sound fundamental baseball from his players, and tactical ineptitude turn this promising young team into a bunch of lazy punks like the current Cubs.

He's going to ruin this team for many years to come. C'mon Walt, show some initiative and just fire the clown before its too late.

I agree. Get him outta there! Time for a new face. He lost control of the team this year and most of the players seemed like they didn't even like him. They didn't play like a team this year. They were having fun and played as a good team should last year, so what happened this year...DUSTY happened!!!

[Stray]

Agree with everything except your conclusion that he will always hit .250. I think he will prove a .280-.300 hitter once he adopts the right approach (pobably after he gets traded to an organization with a decent manager and/or hitting coach) of staying back. just trying to drive the ball, and hitting to the opposite field a lot.

I don't know. I've seen him stay back and shoot the ball the other way a lot this year. To be honest, I think he has a pretty decent swing.

It just seems like his pitch recognition is terrible, or to be more exact, that he gets into counts and tries to outthink the pitcher. He guesses too often and is totally predictable.

I agree that with better coaching the guy is going to improve, but I don't think you're gonna take a guy that's never been a contact hitter and miraculously turn him into one in his late 20s.

But yeah, like I said...to me I don't worry so much about the Ks and the avg. As long as he is doing those other things that he does really well with more consistency then he will do a lot to help this team win.

[texasdave]

But yeah, like I said...to me I don't worry so much about the Ks and the avg. As long as he is doing those other things that he does really well with more consistency then he will do a lot to help this team win.

The only problem is right now he only has two tools. He runs fast and he throws well. Is that good enough to help his team win? He makes some great plays in the field but the numbers show he is, maybe, an average fielder. He can't make contact to save his life. You can have all the bat speed in the world but if your bat doesn't meet the ball, so what? His power was way down. And, like you mentioned, he is not exceptionally young anymore. He went to an established baseball factory for three years in college and has six professional seasons under his bat. He should be way past the point of still trying to learn how to recognize a pitch or how pitchers attack him. He should be past the point of getting good jumps in the field. He is very unimpressive coming in on balls. People say he needs a different hitting coach and a different hitting philosophy, but is he going to get that in 2012 with Baker and Jacoby both back? Probably not. Nothing would make me happier than to see him turn out to be a perennial All Star. I would say right now the odds are stacked against that happening.

[texasdave]

Wrong thread.

[Stray]

The only problem is right now he only has two tools. He runs fast and he throws well. Is that good enough to help his team win? He makes some great plays in the field but the numbers show he is, maybe, an average fielder. He can't make contact to save his life. You can have all the bat speed in the world but if your bat doesn't meet the ball, so what? His power was way down. And, like you mentioned, he is not exceptionally young anymore. He went to an established baseball factory for three years in college and has six professional seasons under his bat. He should be way past the point of still trying to learn how to recognize a pitch or how pitchers attack him. He should be past the point of getting good jumps in the field. He is very unimpressive coming in on balls. People say he needs a different hitting coach and a different hitting philosophy, but is he going to get that in 2012 with Baker and Jacoby both back? Probably not. Nothing would make me happier than to see him turn out to be a perennial All Star. I would say right now the odds are stacked against that happening.

Good points. I don't really know because the more I think about it the more I think we should move on at that position. Just my observation this year, but it appeared he was letting his struggles at the plate affect the rest of his game. He looked depressed, or even embarrassed at times and like he didn't want to be there.

I would love for Stubbs to become a contact hitter and hit .280 every year, I just don't see that ever happening. As far as defense/base running/taking walks goes I think he definitely has the tools to be great at all of them. I think it's much more likely for him to improve drastically in those areas than it is cutting down his Ks.

It's gonna be a tough decision. I don't think it's as easy or clear-cut as some people do. Luckily Walt has been around for a while and has a lot more personal knowledge on Stubbs to decide.

[Krawhitham]

wow basing this off of 1 season...incredible...:thumbup:

2+ season

42 games in 2009
150 games in 2010
158 games in 2011

Just how long is long enough? How long do you continue to let a player hurt the team when a better option is sitting on the bench?

[texasdave]

I’d give Jocketty a “C” for average because it is tough to grade what he did when he didn’t do much other than wear out I-71 between Louisville and Cincinnati. As for Baker, I give him a “B” because he did the best he could through injuries and underperformances by his players.

LOL. Hal McCoy is the easiest grader in the world. A "C" for doing absolutely nothing and wasting a season while the window closes? Nice. And a quick aside, if Jocketty really did go hard after Pence that suggests that Castellini was willing to add to the payroll. Just sayin'.
And a "B" is for Baker. Because he tried really, really hard, you know. You don't have to be successful anymore. If you try hard you get a "B" - along with a pretty ribbon to take home. Dusty's family will be so proud.

[dMaus14]

I would be willing to bet that he went hard after pence. And the reason he thought he had a better offer was because our prospects were better but I would also bet the two main reasons he went to the Phillies is because they are outside the division and they took the whole contract. Jockey offered Alonso and Meseraco because he needed the Astros to eat a substantial chunk. I bet the payroll would have rise. To $85M

[DocRed]

Whether or not he thinks we offered a better package...the fact is he failed and did not get him. Jocketty is a spin doctor making it seem like he did something when it fact he did nothing.

[nux fan]

exactly he plays this naive and non questioning media easily, he would be blown apart in Boston or New York where you actually have to at least try and accomplish something

[texasdave]

Whether or not he thinks we offered a better package...the fact is he failed and did not get him. Jocketty is a spin doctor making it seem like he did something when it fact he did nothing.

1) Jocketty will not overpay.
2) Jocketty's offer was better than Philadelphia's
3) Philadelphia underpaid.

Logic.

[brm7675]

I would be willing to bet that he went hard after pence. And the reason he thought he had a better offer was because our prospects were better but I would also bet the two main reasons he went to the Phillies is because they are outside the division and they took the whole contract. Jockey offered Alonso and Meseraco because he needed the Astros to eat a substantial chunk. I bet the payroll would have rise. To $85M

I doubt Walt made any kind of serious offer. For whatever reason Walt didn't feel the need to make any changes. I don't see Walt making any significant this offseason.

[malcontent]

I lost some faith in Jocketty when he made that inane "Janish just needs to relax and play the game he's capable of playing" comment.

[Vottomatic]

I lost some faith in Jocketty when he signed slick Willy Tavares. What was he thinking?

[texasdave]

I lost some faith in Jocketty when he said he was "happy" with a team that was clearly in trouble.

[Vottomatic]

I lost some faith in Jocketty when he talked about trading for Pence and said the Phillies were "dealin'" and offered a "huge" package for Pence that the Reds couldn't match.

At that point, I realized he'd been Dusty-lized. :D

[brm7675]

I lost some faith in Jocketty when he talked about trading for Pence and said the Phillies were "dealin'" and offered a "huge" package for Pence that the Reds couldn't match.

At that point, I realized he'd been Dusty-lized. :D

We have no idea if we could have matched that deal or not. We don't know how Houston viewed our talent, maybe they valued more what they got from Philly then what we had to offer. Until we hear from Houston saying, hey the Reds only offered us this and we didn't like it and wanted this, we really don't know.