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malcontent
05-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Or should Scott Rolen be refunding the Reds all but Miguel Cairo money?

Because, right now, Miguel Cairo is more valuable to the team.

I mean, Rolen's not doing the manager's job. He knew enough to lean into a Wilson Valdez pitch the other night, but I didn't see him getting in Votto's or Bruce's ear to be patient. If he was shouting to Datdude to cut the lovefest with Howard and Rollins short, somebody wasn't paying attention.

Dude's a shadow of a shell. It's time to retire.

Jefferson24
05-27-2011, 12:28 AM
Dude's a shadow of a shell. It's time to retire.

This is a shadow of a team, don't just blame Rolen.

Billy Hamilton's Legs
05-27-2011, 12:34 AM
Scott Rolen is invaluable to this team. When he's in the lineup, our winning percentage is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than when he is not. The man is old and runs into some injuries, sure, but the organization expected that from the start. The front office suggested a target of 120 games for Rolen. I don't think he'll quite be at that mark at the end of the season, but 100 games for me is satisfactory for a guy his age. I also think your idea of veteran leadership is flawed. It is not Rolen's job to discipline BP or pull him aside; it's dusty's. Rolen is supposed to simply be there as a guy who has a lot of experience in the league and may can give a pointer or two to the young guys. Leadership doesn't have to be direct, it can be passive. I think Rolen goes out there, is confident and calm, and plays the game with class and has a ton of experience behind him, that's leadership, which is not to be confused with managing.

malcontent
05-27-2011, 01:01 AM
Scott Rolen is invaluable to this team. When he's in the lineup, our winning percentage is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than when he is not. The man is old and runs into some injuries, sure, but the organization expected that from the start. The front office suggested a target of 120 games for Rolen. I don't think he'll quite be at that mark at the end of the season, but 100 games for me is satisfactory for a guy his age. I also think your idea of veteran leadership is flawed. It is not Rolen's job to discipline BP or pull him aside; it's dusty's. Rolen is supposed to simply be there as a guy who has a lot of experience in the league and may can give a pointer or two to the young guys. Leadership doesn't have to be direct, it can be passive. I think Rolen goes out there, is confident and calm, and plays the game with class and has a ton of experience behind him, that's leadership, which is not to be confused with managing.
I don't really expect Rolen to do the manager's job. It'd be great if somebody did the things I mentioned the other night.

But the eyes don't lie. Can't catch up to the fastball and bites on stuff out of the zone. Statuesque in the field.

Then there are the stats.

He actually isn't far from Janish territory at this point. 5 BB. 2 HR. 18 RBI. 0.718 OPS.

How do you survive with that level of production from your 3B?

malcontent
05-27-2011, 01:06 AM
This is a shadow of a team, don't just blame Rolen.
Reds gotta do something about SS and 3B.

They have no chance if they don't.

Maker_84
05-27-2011, 01:15 AM
Reds gotta do something about SS and 3B.

They have no chance if they don't.

I think pitching right now should be the number 1 priority. It's been awful all season and are always down at the beginning of games lately

VottoFan54
05-27-2011, 01:39 AM
I don't really expect Rolen to do the manager's job. It'd be great if somebody did the things I mentioned the other night.

But the eyes don't lie. Can't catch up to the fastball and bites on stuff out of the zone. Statuesque in the field.

Then there are the stats.

He actually isn't far from Janish territory at this point. 5 BB. 2 HR. 18 RBI. 0.718 OPS.

How do you survive with that level of production from your 3B?

Paul Janish has a .500 OPS and Scott Rolen has a .718 OPS, so I guess if you write off .218 OPS points then I guess it would be reasonable to suggest Scott Rolen "isn't that far from Janish territory".

I think you have to give Rolen more than 110 AB before you suggest removing him from the lineup in favor of a guy with a .678 OPS despite Rolen having a career OPS of .865, so Rolen right now despite "not being far from Janish territory" is still above Miguel Cairo's career OPS.

Miguel Cairo has had one season with at least 200 AB and a OPS higher than Rolen's current OPS. Miguel Cairo has tried to be a starter his whole career, he isn't a starter, he is a good bench player and one of those players that every team needs on their rosters.

malcontent
05-27-2011, 02:33 AM
I think you have to give Rolen more than 110 AB before you suggest removing him from the lineup in favor of a guy with a .678 OPS despite Rolen having a career OPS of .865, so Rolen right now despite "not being far from Janish territory" is still above Miguel Cairo's career OPS.
I'm not suggesting installing Cairo as the 3B.

I would like to see Frazier brought up and given a shot.

It's just painful to watch Rolen at this stage. And batting him cleanup has only highlighted the decline.

And I agree the comp with Janish was a bit unfair. Actually comparing anyone with Janish is going to be unfair. But 5 BB and 2 HR in 120 PA from your 3B is abysmal anyway you cut it.

Moosie52
05-27-2011, 08:41 AM
O-Cab says hello. :wave:

Billy Hamilton's Legs
05-27-2011, 03:19 PM
I'm not suggesting installing Cairo as the 3B.

I would like to see Frazier brought up and given a shot.

It's just painful to watch Rolen at this stage. And batting him cleanup has only highlighted the decline.

And I agree the comp with Janish was a bit unfair. Actually comparing anyone with Janish is going to be unfair. But 5 BB and 2 HR in 120 PA from your 3B is abysmal anyway you cut it.

I think a .718 OPS for now is fine, since coming back from the DL, Rolen has a .300 avg and a .784 OPS. I'm pretty happy with that from Scott. Also, you just don't bench Scott Rolen in favor of an unproven prospect, especially with a team with several young guys. Rolen, Ramon, and Renteria are arguably the only three vets amongst the position players that get a decent amount of playing time and Renteria's spot/position in Cincinnati is shaky considering he hasn't been batting and he is said to be unhappy here.

VottoFan54
05-27-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm not suggesting installing Cairo as the 3B.

I would like to see Frazier brought up and given a shot.

It's just painful to watch Rolen at this stage. And batting him cleanup has only highlighted the decline.

And I agree the comp with Janish was a bit unfair. Actually comparing anyone with Janish is going to be unfair. But 5 BB and 2 HR in 120 PA from your 3B is abysmal anyway you cut it.

I guess our disagreement is that I think Rolen is going to get out of this slump he is in this season. I don't think that last season was a fluke, I think he will recover. I don't think that the production we are getting out of him is really that bad, at the end of the season last year only 8 NL third baseman had a higher OPS than the OPS that Rolen has right now. In addition to that Rolen is a great defensive third baseman.

Rolen is painful to watch, but it is just a slump IMO. I don't expect him to stay this bad but if he does we will have to look at potential replacements like Frazier and Francisco because Rolen is getting old and I think there is a good chance that we see him retire after next season, but I think he will still be a decent third baseman for the remainder of his contract.

Krawhitham
05-27-2011, 04:29 PM
Rolen needs about half the games off to be any good, just like Razor

Francisco has a 17 game hitting streak, .357 2hr 11 rbi 12 Runs 7 Doubles in 17 games at AAA

It is time to split 3rd base like they do with catching

Krawhitham
05-27-2011, 04:32 PM
I think a .718 OPS for now is fine, since coming back from the DL, Rolen has a .300 avg and a .784 OPS. I'm pretty happy with that from Scott.


0.407 OPS & .185 AVG in last 7 games

VottoFan54
05-27-2011, 05:39 PM
Rolen needs about half the games off to be any good, just like Razor

Francisco has a 17 game hitting streak, .357 2hr 11 rbi 12 Runs 7 Doubles in 17 games at AAA
a
It is time to split 3rd base like they do with catching

We already know Francisco can hit in AAA the question is weather or not he can hit at the MLB level. I don't see what you can like about him, he doesn't hit for average, he plays bad defense, he has bad plate discipline, I don't think that is a recipe for success at the MLB level. I agree that Rolen needs days off and he should only play about 100 games, but I don't think he should sit out because he isn't good enough.

Natty Redlocks
05-27-2011, 05:58 PM
I think Frazier will get called up again eventually. Hopefully, he'll turn into a Mark DeRosa type utility guy and fill in admirably as often as needed. But it's really the pitching that needs to improve; the offense isn't perfect but it's not terrible, I wish people would quit acting like the sky is falling. "AAAAHHH!!! Fire Dusty!!! Make Rolen retire!!! DFA Gomes!!! AAAAAHHHH!!!! Sell the farm for Jose Reyes!!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!"

Silly. It's silly.

Hillsdale87
05-27-2011, 06:06 PM
O-Cab says hello. :wave:

Exactly. It's something that can't be measured, but I think it's pretty clear that players like Cabrera bring more to the team than their stats would indicate. The same could be said about Edmonds coming to the Reds last year. Maybe it was coincidence, but Bruce and Stubbs have looked significantly better since.

That's not to say that I would rather have Rolen than Evan Longoria, but I do think that Rolen is a valuable asset even if he is experiencing a down season.

VottoFan54
05-27-2011, 07:45 PM
I think Frazier will get called up again eventually. Hopefully, he'll turn into a Mark DeRosa type utility guy and fill in admirably as often as needed. But it's really the pitching that needs to improve; the offense isn't perfect but it's not terrible, I wish people would quit acting like the sky is falling. "AAAAHHH!!! Fire Dusty!!! Make Rolen retire!!! DFA Gomes!!! AAAAAHHHH!!!! Sell the farm for Jose Reyes!!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!"

Silly. It's silly.

+1 You would think this is the first time the Reds have had a losing streak.

malcontent
05-28-2011, 06:23 AM
I think Frazier will get called up again eventually. Hopefully, he'll turn into a Mark DeRosa type utility guy and fill in admirably as often as needed. But it's really the pitching that needs to improve; the offense isn't perfect but it's not terrible, I wish people would quit acting like the sky is falling. "AAAAHHH!!! Fire Dusty!!! Make Rolen retire!!! DFA Gomes!!! AAAAAHHHH!!!! Sell the farm for Jose Reyes!!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!"

Silly. It's silly.
They may have won tonight, but they're about to face Greinke and Marcum.

:alcohol:

Natty Redlocks
05-28-2011, 01:39 PM
They may have won tonight, but they're about to face Greinke and Marcum.

:alcohol:
Ha, they own the Brewers