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View Full Version : Rest the pen? Or win the game?



Kc61
06-01-2011, 10:09 AM
I know the bullpen is overworked. But last night I got the feeling that resting the pen was the most important objective. I did not think the Reds used all available assets to win the game.

Reineke hits with the bases loaded and no out, trailing 4-1.
To me, you hit for Reineke and use the pen. Horst was certainly available to pitch around three innings. Then you can finish with a couple of one-inning stints.

This was a game against a division rival. I couldn't see Dusty leaving Reineke out there to hit in a key situation.

I've felt for several days that resting the bullpen has become the imperative for this team. Meanwhile they are five games back and could be out of things by the Fourth of July.

Are the Reds sacrificing games to rest the bullpen?

camisadelgolf
06-01-2011, 10:18 AM
I think the game was sacrificed when they put Reineke up against Greinke.

Ghosts of 1990
06-01-2011, 10:19 AM
I would have hit for Reineke and tried to win the game. I'm not surprised at what Dusty did in that situation given all of the innings they've had to log lately. More surprised he sent him back out after it was 5-2 and allowed him to walk a couple of guys when he was clearly on fumes and thus ended all logical hopes of a late rally.

Hoosier Red
06-01-2011, 10:27 AM
I think the game was sacrificed when the put Reineke up against Greinke.

It may have been, but Greinke was not on top of his game and the Reds had a great chance to get back in it with a big inning. I simply think the bullpen has had to do so much, and they've had to dip into the minors so often in the last week and a half that they're at the end of their rope.

So one more game would not have been too much to ask the bullpen, but the problem becomes what happens if you have to go to the pen for one more one more game and then Mike Leake gets blown out early tonight.

I can see why Dusty would be hesitant to go to the pen in the 4th inning again.

Hopefully Leake will steal a few extra innings tonight, then the rest on Thursday, and then everyone is set up for the weekend.

reds1869
06-01-2011, 10:27 AM
I am in the rest the pen camp. Long term it will be better for the team and the offense still ultimately had their chances but did not cash in. I have no problem with what Dusty did last night. You have to pick your spot to do what he did and a night where you are facing Greinke is a decent choice. Losing that game by no means buries the team and results in having a better chance to win tonight and this weekend with a rested pen.

camisadelgolf
06-01-2011, 10:46 AM
Just imagine how bad it would've been if the Reds went into extras again.

REDREAD
06-01-2011, 10:54 AM
I just assumed last night's game was punted. It was unfortunate, but not really much of a choice.

I'd much rather have a rested pen for today, when the matchup is much more favorable than a 29 year old AAA journeyman vs Grienke..

Homer Bailey
06-01-2011, 11:13 AM
Last night was easy, easy money for me. Unfortunately, I've made a decent amount of money betting against the Reds over the last couple of weeks. Brewers -125 with Greinke going against Reineke? You serious? Thanks though.

edabbs44
06-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I think the question should be "Definitely rest the pen or take a shot at winning the game?"

757690
06-01-2011, 12:07 PM
I would have hit Reineke, but told him not to swing the bat. He K's there and it's still bases loaded one out, with the top of the lineup coming up.

757690
06-01-2011, 12:09 PM
Last night was easy, easy money for me. Unfortunately, I've made a decent amount of money betting against the Reds over the last couple of weeks. Brewers -125 with Greinke going against Reineke? You serious? Thanks though.

I'd rather be poor than ever bet against the Reds, and I love to bet baseball.

Homer Bailey
06-01-2011, 12:09 PM
I'd rather be poor than ever bet against the Reds, and I love to bet baseball.

It's a hedge of happiness. I never bet enough to make me want to root against the Reds, but I get compensated if they lose. Win-win.

757690
06-01-2011, 12:13 PM
It's a hedge of happiness. I never bet enough to make me want to root against the Reds, but I get compensated if they lose. Win-win.

I would feel dirty every time I spent a nickel of the money I won. But if you can do it and feel fine about it, go for it. :)

OldXOhio
06-01-2011, 12:30 PM
Has there been any talk of why Ondrusek wasn't available last night? Other than the resting the entire pen theory.

edabbs44
06-01-2011, 12:37 PM
Has there been any talk of why Ondrusek wasn't available last night? Other than the resting the entire pen theory.

They are obviously concerned about his workload. He pitched a ton last week and Dusty said this last night:


These guys have been pitching a lot,” Baker said. “Guys were sore. We’ve got to watch Arredondo. He’s coming off Tommy John. Ondrusek is No. 2 in the league in appearances. We didn’t have the innings to cover backend of the game.”

Last year DB oversued people, this year he is in trouble for trying to do what's best for the bullpen. Maybe Logan has been dealing with some soreness or a dead arm. We don't know. I would think that they are doing what is right for these guys.

camisadelgolf
06-01-2011, 01:42 PM
Last year DB oversued people, this year he is in trouble for trying to do what's best for the bullpen.
Sounds to me like Dusty needs a new lawyer.

edabbs44
06-01-2011, 01:42 PM
Sounds to me like Dusty needs a new lawyer.

Ha!

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-01-2011, 02:13 PM
I just assumed last night's game was punted. It was unfortunate, but not really much of a choice.

I'd much rather have a rested pen for today, when the matchup is much more favorable than a 29 year old AAA journeyman vs Grienke..

How many games is this team going to punt? At least two on the road trip were punted away.

edabbs44
06-01-2011, 02:17 PM
How many games is this team going to punt? At least two on the road trip were punted away.

I thought they punted the whole season?

cumberlandreds
06-01-2011, 02:20 PM
How many games is this team going to punt? At least two on the road trip were punted away.

With all the punting going on the Reds should have Ray Guy in the bullpen. :)

paulrichjr
06-01-2011, 02:26 PM
I bought 7 tickets by the Reds dugout for last nights game. How would you feel about that? (Knowing that they were going to lose before the game even started)

I will say this though. If you have kids who love baseball one of the best things I ever did at a game was pay to go to the Reds batting practice. We did the stadium tour then paid $5 extra to go to batting practice at 4:30 (1hour 10 minutes before the public) Every kid with me (and myself) got a ball (5 in all) and really enjoyed it. The stadium was virtually empty. It as really cool.

Note: A ball was hit hard into the outfield right at Cueto while he was running. He literally did a front flip to avoid the ball. I was thinking at the time..."what else can happen to our pitching?"

HokieRed
06-01-2011, 02:32 PM
It might just be that Dusty has more confidence in the offense than lots of RZers seem to--i.e. that he didn't think the whole game turned on that one at-bat in quite the same way as is being assumed here. And if the offense is as bad as seems implicitly assumed by focusing so much on this one situation, then I don't see how A. Dusty or anybody else can possibly manage the ballclub successfully, and B. We're going to be really bad this season. Also, if Dusty had brought in a pinch-hitter and the ph had hit into a double play, then Dusty would be being taken to task both for losing the ballgame and burning up the bullpen. IMHO, if you want to focus on one game-changing play in last night's game, it might just as well be Edgar's booting the routine ball. Reineke was rolling along to that point. If he gets that first out that inning, the whole game might have developed differently. One thing I'd take away from last night's game is that the SS move needs to be made soon and that, in the meantime, it's best just to play Janish for the superior defense he brings.

Kc61
06-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Jeremy Horst pitched 2 2/3 innings last night in the late innings.

He could have pitched the fifth, sixth, and seventh.

Then you only need to cover the 8th and 9th. You have Cordero, Masset, Bray, maybe Ondrusek for one inning.

I just don't think the Reds can say their pen was too tired last night to get through that game. I think the team could have hit for Reineke in the fourth and made it through.

Now, if it turned out to be a very long game, 11 or 12 innings, it could be a problem. I just don't see structuring my whole strategy on the possibility of a 12 inning ballgame.

Strongly disagree with the decision last night.

Reds1
06-01-2011, 02:53 PM
This is one of those hindsight questions. I mean everyone is going to say hey go for it you have to try to win the game, but the fact is we only had 4 pitchers for the rest of the game and if the games goes in extras then what. It was really a no win situation. I would have rather seen a strike out, but then again say stubbs hits in double play then we don't get any runs. You just have to play. Things don't seem to be going the Reds way right now, but if they win tonight they take 2-3 and win the series. That's all you can ask for. That being said Reds do face a tough pitcher again. Just seems the match ups have been rough for the better party of 2 weeks. Where are the Cubs and Pirates when you need them. :)

kaldaniels
06-01-2011, 03:03 PM
I think the game was sacrificed when they put Reineke up against Greinke.

I said it in the game thread. The game was lost when the lineup cards were completed. Very rare is the case when that happens, but last night was one of them. I hoped for a miracle though.

cincyinco
06-01-2011, 05:12 PM
Last night was easy, easy money for me. Unfortunately, I've made a decent amount of money betting against the Reds over the last couple of weeks. Brewers -125 with Greinke going against Reineke? You serious? Thanks though.

Peter Edward, is that you? ;)

REDREAD
06-01-2011, 09:57 PM
How many games is this team going to punt? At least two on the road trip were punted away.

Well, with the injuries, they really had no choice.
Resting the pen may have paid off today.. The pen was great.
Yes, they may have been just as good regardless.

The big question is.. do the Reds bring Volquez back or do they wait for someone else to get healthy? Isn't Willis close to getting better (I think he is close to the end of the 15 day DL, but I don't know if that means he's better)

kaldaniels
06-01-2011, 10:16 PM
Well, with the injuries, they really had no choice.
Resting the pen may have paid off today.. The pen was great.
Yes, they may have been just as good regardless.

The big question is.. do the Reds bring Volquez back or do they wait for someone else to get healthy? Isn't Willis close to getting better (I think he is close to the end of the 15 day DL, but I don't know if that means he's better)

If Volquez is looking good...I'm bringing him back.

I'm probably thinking too hard, but what about having some fun with it to calm his nerves. Start Ondrusek and have him pitch the first. Then let a pre-warmed Volquez come in. Just once. Never gonna happen, I know.

WVRedsFan
06-01-2011, 10:37 PM
If Volquez is looking good...I'm bringing him back.

I'm probably thinking too hard, but what about having some fun with it to calm his nerves. Start Ondrusek and have him pitch the first. Then let a pre-warmed Volquez come in. Just once. Never gonna happen, I know.

If he has corrected his mechanics problem, by all means bring him back. He's going to dominate minor league hitters anyway even with "throwing" instead of pitching. But if he is not making the corrections Dusty spoke about, do not bring him up to further tax the bullpen.