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mrherd05
06-05-2011, 09:35 PM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

VottoFan54
06-05-2011, 09:43 PM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

The Reds need to stand pat for a month and then see where they are at, there is no need to panic or make any snap decisions regarding players or management.

bshall2105
06-05-2011, 09:43 PM
I was thinking trade Joey Votto

Maldez
06-05-2011, 10:09 PM
Isn't Dusty Baker the same manager that took Cincy to the NL Central championship last year? Isn't he a three-time NL Manager of the year?

BurgervilleBuck
06-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Better idea: option mrherd05 to some Double-A Chattanooga Redszone forum?

Vottomatic
06-05-2011, 10:15 PM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

I'm not a big Dusty fan but the starting pitching sucks and we have holes in our offensive lineup. This is a small market organization that is at it's highest payroll ever ($81M). They won't be adding payroll/players by trade.

They are going to war with what they have.

Everyone (including me) wants to see some trades to improve the club? We may get our wish at the trade deadline if the Reds are 8 to 10 games out of first place (small fire sale of guys like Cordero, etc.). This team might look a wee bit different come next season.

BAKER12
06-05-2011, 11:42 PM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

Wow, what a shocker that you came up with this

Who was the manager last year when we rallied in mid August and took over the Central and clinched the division?

BAKER12
06-05-2011, 11:44 PM
I'm not a big Dusty fan but the starting pitching sucks and we have holes in our offensive lineup. This is a small market organization that is at it's highest payroll ever ($81M). They won't be adding payroll/players by trade.

They are going to war with what they have.

Everyone (including me) wants to see some trades to improve the club? We may get our wish at the trade deadline if the Reds are 8 to 10 games out of first place (small fire sale of guys like Cordero, etc.). This team might look a wee bit different come next season.

What in the heck is the Reds starters ERA? 5.50

Simply put, we all overrated our starting pitching

Vottomatic
06-06-2011, 07:50 AM
What in the heck is the Reds starters ERA? 5.50

Simply put, we all overrated our starting pitching

Well, if Arroyo was the Arroyo of 2010.......
If Wood was the Wood of 2010..........
Bailey seems better but he can't stay healthy.........
Cueto is getting better every year..........
Volquez was rushed back too quickly..........
Leake is young and caught the league by storm as an unknown quantity in 2010........
Chapman should be groomed as a starting pitcher in Louisville...........

signalhome
06-06-2011, 08:32 AM
What in the heck is the Reds starters ERA? 5.50

Simply put, we all overrated our starting pitching

I rarely agree with you, as I am not what one would call a Dusty fan, at all. However, you're spot-on here. SP is the Reds' biggest problem. I put a lot more value on in-game management and who plays than whatever else goes on for a manager, so I think Dusty has certainly done his share to hurt the team this year. Even so, the biggest problem so far has been SP, and you can put me in the camp that believes that if the opportunity presents itself, a deal for good SP must be made -- I'm talking someone good, not something like the Cardinals did last year, dealing for the ever-mediocre Jake Westbrook.

texasdave
06-06-2011, 09:27 AM
If a pitcher is good and young, the cost in talent to be given up to get him would probably be prohibitive (If he was even on the trading block).
If a pitcher is good and been around awhile, the cost in money is probably prohibitive.

Rock meet hard place.

Kiss the Baby00
06-06-2011, 09:29 AM
baker 12 hit the nail on the head

Redeye fly
06-06-2011, 09:33 AM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

The players haven't changed but I don't know about "many have gotten better"

Going down the list, imo....

Votto- perhaps better, perhaps down a little, perhaps about the same. It's hard to say because they're pitching him differently this year than they did for most of last year.

Phillips- Probably better in some ways. Overall he still is who he is. He's the best defensive second baseman in the game who's OBP is going to be largely batting average driven. He still doesn't take many walks but it almost seems like he gets better defensively every year, which boggles the mind. Not going to go hunting for a bunch of stats, especially for defensive ones,which tend to be the most highly disagreed upon anyway.

Janish-substantially worse offensively, and thus far Renteria has been worse offensively than Cabrera was, imo. Renteria will take a walk and has been brought up at times by Thom Brennaman on the telecasts, he sometimes picks it up a notch late in games. But overall we've got nothing offensively from the SS position.

Rolen- Much worse than where he was at last year. Last year he was an All Star. This year he's about a .250 or below hitter with 2 home runs. Love the guy, love his career, but when the guy who you had as your clean up hitter does that, it drags down your team. You can say he's not the clean up hitter, or should not be, but that is where Dusty put him to start the year, so that was his anticipated spot and role.

Hernandez/Hanigan- Call it a wash. Hernandez is better/healthier, Hanigan is worse. It may indeed be luck with Hanigan, luck as in bad luck. Haven't checked his babip. But the bottom line is luck or no luck, he is not putting up the solid average we've come to expect from him. Hernandez has been very good thus far though.

Gomes- Much much worse, and he took a beating in these parts last year after May. Love the effort, hate the results.

Heisey- probably about the same

Stubbs- about the same... he's made some progress but at this point not as much as it appeared he had earlier in the year.

Bruce- better, though I'm still interested to see if/when/and for how long the bad streak is coming. We all know how talented and touted he is and was as a prospect. He's been a streaky hitter throughout his career too up here, so we'll see.

Miguel Cairo- about the same, though I expect he'll drop off

Volquez- obviously didn't have him most of last year, but worse... much much, MUCH worse. He had a bad outing in the playoffs last year and some other clunkers, but this year he's pitched like someone without a clue most of the time.

Arroyo- worse, although as we know with Bronson, and as Dusty mentioned after his last start, every year he goes through a rough patch and every year thus far he comes out of them. You do have to take into consideration mono and back problems, but still, results up to this point are results, and they're worse.

Cueto- continues to progress and get better, needs to stay healthy

Bailey- continues to progress and get better, seemingly can't stay healthy

Wood- even though he shows signs of being able to pitch, overall much worse

Leake- hard to say, probably need a good statistical analysis and comparison. He's obviously not as good as he was when he first came up in terms of results, not as bad as when he wore down or the league figured him out after several starts last year. So I guess "too early to tell", or about the same.

Cordero- better
Masset- about the same
Bray- better
Ondrusek- probably better, despite the grand slam to Kemp
Chapman- obviously worse, whether it was mechanics, injury, or the combination thereof
Lecure- about the same
Maloney(for all his action)- probably worse, I don't know, don't know why I even mentioned him

So there it is. I'm probably forgetting somebody, and it's just my opinion, with no stats listed. But I fail to see how most of the players have gotten "better".

Our production on the entire left side of the field has taken a nose dive (SS,3B, LF). When you consider that 3B(Rolen) and LF (mostly Gomes) were positions that Dusty was counting on to be run producing ones, that hurts. Rolen is old, Gomes is just not that good. Janish never has been out there for his bat, but the other players sliding downward exposes him more.

Since it's early June, it's hard for me to say definitively that many players are clearly better, as they still have more than half a season to streak downward and upward.

About the only one that I would say is markedly better than last year from the results is Cordero. I guess he's in better shape and it's paid off so far.

Cueto may be better but he was already pretty decent. He does seem to be learning and progressing more or less the way you would like, so that is a good sign.

Bailey looked better, but can he stay healthy?

Votto- again depends on how you look at it.... power numbers- a little worse... OBP... even better

Bruce- better, let's hope he keeps it up

Phillips- maybe better, again it depends, it's too early to say. He's basically the same player to me.

Bray's better but they're asking him to do less as basically a LOOGY.

Ondrusek looks to be progressing, again despite the grand slam.

But the bottom line is out of a starting rotation that "should have" started the year had everyone been healthy of Volquez, Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, and Wood,
only Bailey and Cueto have been better and more or less reliable every single time out there. And they weren't healthy to start the year, and Bailey got hurt again after he came back.

So you're talking about 60% of your starting rotation being worse than what they were last year... and Arroyo will probably turn it around, hopefully they all will.... but 60% of your starting rotation is worse than last year, and the 2 guys who are better have already had health issues this year.

So, I'd be interested to see how that is Dusty Baker's fault. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the biggest Dusty supporter. But the players by and large like him, so I don't think replacing him is going to motivate your starting pitchers to all of a sudden start getting more people out.

ntorvik
06-06-2011, 10:05 AM
pitching, pitching, pitching and...well pitching, are to blame for where we are right now. Our rotation is a rotating door and we just have no consistency, and NOW our bullpen is shot to heck because of it. Dusty has actually gotten better (imho) with age. He doesn't run his pitchers out there to tear their young arms up like he used to, he keeps tinkering with the lineup because of something doesn't work, he is making sure that we don't stick with it. With a crappy shortstop and a problem in left field, he is doing the best he can. Keep Dusty, sign a new shortstop/left fielder/starting pitcher.

texasdave
06-06-2011, 10:28 AM
Dusty has actually gotten better (imho) with age. He doesn't run his pitchers out there to tear their young arms up like he used to.

I sure hope you are right. So does Jose Arredondo. Arredondo is coming off TJ surgery and did not pitch in 2010. He has been up with the team for 21 games. Dusty has used him 12 times for 11.67 innings. That is a pace for 92 games and 90 innings in a season. Yikes! About a week ago in Fay's blog, Dusty was quoted as saying they had to monitor Arredondo's innings closely. I suppose Dusty feels the best way to monitor those innings is to have Arredondo stand on the mound and fling the baseball.

Some other numbers. Masset and Ondrusek tied for third in appearances. Bray tied for sixth. Ondrusek third in innings pitched. Masset tied for fourth. Bray has more reasonable numbers in this category.

The starting pitching, or lack of, has certainly forced Dusty's hand in a number of instances. I just hope by the time the starting rotation gets straightened out that the bullpen isn't going down the drain from being used so often.

It's a fine line. The Reds can't afford to fall much further back in the standings, but they can't afford to burn out their bullpen either. The starters simply must pitch deeper into games, either by pitching well or by falling on their swords a time or two for the team's sake.

SABID
06-06-2011, 10:56 AM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

I might know a guy....



Posted via iphone from Pump 9 at the Shell station.

Krawhitham
06-06-2011, 11:34 AM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

Starting pitching is not nearly as good as it was last season, is that Dusty's fault

Reds starting pitching this season is ranked 28th (5.02 ERA), 13th last season (4.05 ERA)

The ExWL for this Reds this season using the starting pitching from last season would be 35 - 25

Once again how is that Dusty's fault?

ntorvik
06-06-2011, 01:09 PM
yeah, I don't think we can entirely blame that on Dusty though, because it's all that he can do to even get us through 9 innings, which is sad. Our starters should be going 6-7 innings per game and getting us where we need to be, but they just aren't.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 01:13 PM
Starting pitching is not nearly as good as it was last season, is that Dusty's fault

Reds starting pitching this season is ranked 28th (5.02 ERA), 13th last season (4.05 ERA)

The ExWL for this Reds this season using the starting pitching from last season would be 35 - 25

Once again how is that Dusty's fault?

1. Chosing to have EV on the opening day roster when it was easy to tell he wasn't ready

2. Continued abuse of Chapman

3. total ineptitude on how to handle the bullpen

4. Refusal to see the numbers that the pitchers perform better with Hanigan behind the plate over Hernandez

signalhome
06-06-2011, 02:18 PM
4. Refusal to see the numbers that the pitchers perform better with Hanigan behind the plate over Hernandez

CERA is generally considered a terrible statistic that has very little predictive value. Even among catchers with the most vast difference in CERA, the likelihood of one remaining better than the other is not much better than a coin flip.

For a very in-depth read about it, try http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1489.

Edit: Or, if you want Woolner's and James' thoughts summed up, check out Catcher's ERA's wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcher%27s_ERA)

Who Dey Time
06-06-2011, 02:28 PM
1. Chosing to have EV on the opening day roster when it was easy to tell he wasn't ready

2. Continued abuse of Chapman

3. total ineptitude on how to handle the bullpen

4. Refusal to see the numbers that the pitchers perform better with Hanigan behind the plate over Hernandez

1. You act as if EV was supposed to be on the bubble for a roster spot when he was clearly the #1 or #2 option heading into 2011. No one doubted EV's spot in the rotation heading into this season and to play MMQB on it afterwards is lame at best.

2. Chapman role was clearly defined coming into the season and he had been used appropriately. You might not like the role he had (I didn't) but that was a decision made upstairs and Dusty used him correctly.

3. Please explain a competent way of handling a bullpen when the starting staff has been as abysmal as the Reds rotation? When you are forced into action into the 5th and 6th inning seemingly every night or every other night there isn't much that can be done in lieu of getting better results out of the rotation.

4. Really? We are already giving up LF and SS from an offensive perspective and now you want to add C to that list. Hernandez is hitting 79 points higher than Hanigan this season and, if you were to do more recent splits, the gap is probably worse. Hanigan, offensively, has been no better than Gomes recently but no one seems to want to talk about that. You give Hanigan more times and you are essentially trying to beat people with 5 offensive players considering that we have got nothing out of LF, SS, Hanigan, and P.


And despite all that has happened. Despite having one of the worst starting rotations in baseball, despite getting zero production out of 2 key positions and despite the decreased production to date of Rolen and Votto, Dusty still has this team at .500 with a shot to get back into the race. If I had reeled off those same figures in 2005, 2006, etc. we'd be looking a lot like the Cubs right now.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 02:41 PM
1. You act as if EV was supposed to be on the bubble for a roster spot when he was clearly the #1 or #2 option heading into 2011. No one doubted EV's spot in the rotation heading into this season and to play MMQB on it afterwards is lame at best.

I'm sorry but no way EV comes north at the start of the season. He missed time in ST due to visa issues and wasn't ready and a good manager would have seen that. Instead he is brought north not ready and we saw what happened. He should have been DL'ed and spent more time in AZ before coming north.


2. Chapman role was clearly defined coming into the season and he had been used appropriately. You might not like the role he had (I didn't) but that was a decision made upstairs and Dusty used him correctly.

Again, who pitched the kid like 4 out of 5 consecutive days? Who left the kid out there when it was clear he couldn't throw a strike?

3. Please explain a competent way of handling a bullpen when the starting staff has been as abysmal as the Reds rotation? When you are forced into action into the 5th and 6th inning seemingly every night or every other night there isn't much that can be done in lieu of getting better results out of the rotation.

Stop this matchup crap and only using a pitcher for like 1 batter. Either you are good enough to get out any hitter or you shouldn't be on the team. Look at Sunday, why bring Reinke in to face just 3 hitters? Again more abuse of the bullpen

4. Really? We are already giving up LF and SS from an offensive perspective and now you want to add C to that list. Hernandez is hitting 79 points higher than Hanigan this season and, if you were to do more recent splits, the gap is probably worse. Hanigan, offensively, has been no better than Gomes recently but no one seems to want to talk about that. You give Hanigan more times and you are essentially trying to beat people with 5 offensive players considering that we have got nothing out of LF, SS, Hanigan, and P.

Offense isn't this team's issue, it's pitching. Hanigan calls a better game for whatever reason.


And despite all that has happened. Despite having one of the worst starting rotations in baseball, despite getting zero production out of 2 key positions and despite the decreased production to date of Rolen and Votto, Dusty still has this team at .500 with a shot to get back into the race. If I had reeled off those same figures in 2005, 2006, etc. we'd be looking a lot like the Cubs right now.

Sorry but unless a change is made on the manager position this team is not going to improve, this team has lost games it should have won due to poor lineups and misuse of talent.

Krawhitham
06-06-2011, 02:46 PM
1. Chosing to have EV on the opening day roster when it was easy to tell he wasn't ready

Opening day is just one game, I'm more concerned he started the playoffs more than opening day. Opening day might have been a Walt thing, at the time they wanted him long term and giving him opening day was to get on his good side


2. Continued abuse of Chapman
Chapman is or was being groomed to be the closer for next season. How was he abuse he was never used more than two days in a row.
LINK (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/30442/aroldis-chapman) They have handled him with kid gloves if anything



3. total ineptitude on how to handle the bullpen

When starters only last 5.6 innings there is NO WAY anyone could handle a bullpen, then throw in a lot of extra innings and you are really screwed


4. Refusal to see the numbers that the pitchers perform better with Hanigan behind the plate over Hernandez

the CERA in .5 lower with Ryan but

Ryan's wRC+ is 80 (100 is average)
Ryan's FLD is -2 (0 is average)
Ryan's WAR is .3

Razor's #
wRC+ = 149
FLD = 0
WAR = 1.5


Assuming Ryan caught 100% of all games the Reds ExWL would be 32-28. The Reds current ExWL is 31-29

That is a one game pickup

Razor's WAR - Ryan's WAR

1.5 - .3 = 1.2

1.2 > 1

brm7675
06-06-2011, 03:47 PM
Opening day is just one game, I'm more concerned he started the playoffs more than opening day. Opening day might have been a Walt thing, at the time they wanted him long term and giving him opening day was to get on his good side

The point is he shouldn't have come north. To make it even worse he was annointed the "ACE" when it was even clear then he was ready. Dumb move on dusty's part.

Chapman is or was being groomed to be the closer for next season. How was he abuse he was never used more than two days in a row.
LINK (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/30442/aroldis-chapman) They have handled him with kid gloves if anything

"Grooming" him for anything but being a starter is bad baseball and just plain stupid. Then to over pitch him makes matters worse.


When starters only last 5.6 innings there is NO WAY anyone could handle a bullpen, then throw in a lot of extra innings and you are really screwed

Again if we were not warming up pitchers to pitch to 1 batter and such the bullpen wouldn't be as taxed.

the CERA in .5 lower with Ryan but

Ryan's wRC+ is 80 (100 is average)
Ryan's FLD is -2 (0 is average)
Ryan's WAR is .3

Razor's #
wRC+ = 149
FLD = 0
WAR = 1.5


Assuming Ryan caught 100% of all games the Reds ExWL would be 32-28. The Reds current ExWL is 31-29

That is a one game pickup

Razor's WAR - Ryan's WAR

1.5 - .3 = 1.2

1.2 > 1

When Ryan is behind the plate the "pitchers" numbers are better, that is all matters to me right now.

bounty37h
06-06-2011, 03:52 PM
The players havent changed, many have gotten better in fact.

Therefore, there is only one move to make to get us back to where we were last year.

Fire Dusty, right now, get some life in that dugout, and fire up these guys.

Dont wait, do it now.

Many have got worse, or just older actually. Or injured. But dont let that stand in the way of a good ol Dusty bashing. Not that I am totally defending him either, but these players need to step up and take some of the heat too.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 04:08 PM
Starting pitching is not nearly as good as it was last season, is that Dusty's fault

Reds starting pitching this season is ranked 28th (5.02 ERA), 13th last season (4.05 ERA)

The ExWL for this Reds this season using the starting pitching from last season would be 35 - 25

Once again how is that Dusty's fault?

Not ALL is fault, he he did chose WHOM to have in the rotation, it's order and such. He choses when to go to the bullpen, whom to pitch and how long.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 06:30 PM
No reason to fire Baker. He's doing just fine this season. I like the adjustments he's made this year. I really like how he's changed as a manager over the last couple of seasons and has grown closer to the ideas that Walt Jockety places in what it takes to win at the Major League level.

5 games back and 30-30 is a good record when given the historic number of injuries that have happened to the pitching staff in this organization, especially at the big league level. There's too much youth in the pitching staff. That has been a problem.

I agree with Who Dey Time that EV should have never come north with the team. That was Walt's decision, though, not Baker's.

While I also support, probably more than anyone on REDSZONE, that Dusty has ruined many pitchers throughout his career, I don't think that he's had a negative effect on Chapman. Chapman's arm must be stretched out and he must learn to pitch effectively when he doesn't have top velocity. There's an educational process for every player that goes on during April and May, and one can't judge right or wrong the reasons for a Manager on why he did what he did, except for some obvious things, such as playing a veteran who had no chance whatsoever to get on base at better than a .300 clip, such as Corey Patterson and that lousy Center Fielder, whose name I've blocked out of my mind (Willy Taveras?).

brm7675
06-06-2011, 06:33 PM
You want more reasons Baker must go...

"renteria is out indefinitely with a sore back, scott rolen has strep throat and could barely finish saturday’s game, and is not in today."
And they make no move to bring up players to replace those that can not play? So first we short staff the pitching staff and now we are short staffing the position players. Sorry but I am done with this administration. Both Dusty and Walt must go before this team can take the next step. It's bad enough we are carrying non producing AARP members and such, but now we are going into games with a non full roster because Dusty and Walt don't trust the minor league system. Watch out Bob..your team is slowly becoming the laughing stock in baseball...

brm7675
06-06-2011, 06:34 PM
No reason to fire Baker. He's doing just fine this season. I like the adjustments he's made this year. I really like how he's changed as a manager over the last couple of seasons and has grown closer to the ideas that Walt Jockety places in what it takes to win at the Major League level.

5 games back and 30-30 is a good record when given the historic number of injuries that have happened to the pitching staff in this organization, especially at the big league level. There's too much youth in the pitching staff. That has been a problem.

I agree with Who Dey Time that EV should have never come north with the team. That was Walt's decision, though, not Baker's.

If it was Walt's decision, then Baker is either spineless or gutless. He is the manager, it is HIS decision whom comes north. The GM gets the players, the manager decides WHOM is on the team....well in a good run organization that is...

DocRed
06-06-2011, 06:44 PM
How about we start placing some blame on Brian Price...I mean really our starting pitching has been terrible this year.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 06:47 PM
How about we start placing some blame on Brian Price...I mean really our starting pitching has been terrible this year.

Price doesn't make the rotation, Price doesn't decide on when to pull a pitcher and whom to warm up. The blame falls on the manager...

tobttr
06-06-2011, 06:48 PM
Since this has been brought up a few times already in this thread, I'll ask the question....What's with all the injuries to the pitchers? Bad luck? Bad managing (overuse)? Bad mechanics (the fault of the pitching coach)?
Or are we just reliving 1991? With that roster in 90, there is no way that Cincy was the best team in baseball. So the Reds must have used up all their luck to win the World Series and it evened itself out the following year.

DocRed
06-06-2011, 06:49 PM
Price doesn't make the rotation, Price doesn't decide on when to pull a pitcher and whom to warm up. The blame falls on the manager...

True....but isn't his job to make them pitch better? LOL

BAKER12
06-06-2011, 06:50 PM
How about we start placing some blame on Brian Price...I mean really our starting pitching has been terrible this year.

His name is not Dusty or Walt, therefore no one gets blame
Now if we win, guys not named Dusty or Walt get the credit
Do you not understand how to play the Reds Zone Blame game?

Simple rules:
1. Reds win despite Dusty and Walt
2. Reds lose despite the pathetic management of Dusty and Walt

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 06:56 PM
If it was Walt's decision, then Baker is either spineless or gutless. He is the manager, it is HIS decision whom comes north. The GM gets the players, the manager decides WHOM is on the team....well in a good run organization that is...

It is never the Manager's decision. Nobody has more backbone than Dusty Baker. But, it's still not his decision. He gets an opinion, for certain, but it's Walt's decision, and his alone. Walt's in charge of the organization, and it's an organizational decision. Baker's in charge of setting things up for the Major League team, and he needs to know what the plans are of Walt for the organization so that he, too, can plan accordingly. "Together", but with Walt's final say, they decided that it was best to have EV begin the season as the opening day starter. Maybe it had everything to do with EV turning down the long-term contract offer. I wouldn't doubt for a second that there was something involved with it, as there was a good chance EV would falter at the beginning of the season and, therefore, lower his asking price at the end of the season. It wouldn't cost the REDS' the playoffs, but in the end, it may allow them to be able to afford EV for another 4 years at a reasonable price.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 06:57 PM
How about we start placing some blame on Brian Price...I mean really our starting pitching has been terrible this year.

I like Brian Price. I'm not ready to put any blame on him after just a couple of seasons.

Vottomatic
06-06-2011, 06:58 PM
His name is not Dusty or Walt, therefore no one gets blame
Now if we win, guys not named Dusty or Walt get the credit
Do you not understand how to play the Reds Zone Blame game?

Simple rules:
1. Reds win despite Dusty and Walt
2. Reds lose despite the pathetic management of Dusty and Walt

In all my life, all 46 years of it, I've never witnessed a manager, head coach, leader of a team, that has made me scratch my head in disbelief and question his decisions more than Dusty. No exaggeration.


I don't care what his overall record is, and if it's a winning record. He has had tons of talent everywhere he has managed.

I will go to my grave KNOWING and BELIEVING that The Reds win despite Dusty. Does he occasionally make a good decision? A blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. But his lineups are head scratchers day in and day out. His bullpen decisions generally are too.

My favorite line from Dusty was last year when he said that OBP is overrated. That pretty much said it all about Dusty.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 06:58 PM
? With that roster in 90, there is no way that Cincy was the best team in baseball. So the Reds must have used up all their luck to win the World Series and it evened itself out the following year.

Couldn't disagree more. They were easily the best team in baseball, and they were because they had the most talent and were put together better than any other team.

You don't go wire-to-wire and sweep a World Series unless you're easily the best team in baseball.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 06:59 PM
It is never the Manager's decision. Nobody has more backbone than Dusty Baker. But, it's still not his decision. He gets an opinion, for certain, but it's Walt's decision, and his alone. Walt's in charge of the organization, and it's an organizational decision. Baker's in charge of setting things up for the Major League team, and he needs to know what the plans are of Walt for the organization so that he, too, can plan accordingly. "Together", but with Walt's final say, they decided that it was best to have EV begin the season as the opening day starter. Maybe it had everything to do with EV turning down the long-term contract offer. I wouldn't doubt for a second that there was something involved with it, as there was a good chance EV would falter at the beginning of the season and, therefore, lower his asking price at the end of the season. It wouldn't cost the REDS' the playoffs, but in the end, it may allow them to be able to afford EV for another 4 years at a reasonable price.

I'm sorry but i have ZERO respect for any manager who doesn't have final say on his roster. It is the job of the GM to go get the players, it is then the job of the manager to decide who makes the team and where they play and how much. If Walt is making these decisions then this team is in real trouble. I find it hard to believe that Walt ever told Tony L. whom to play, where to play them and such. Sorry but a GOOD GM knows his job and it's not managing the team.

Do you think the Reds GM's ever told Sparky who to play?

brm7675
06-06-2011, 07:00 PM
Couldn't disagree more. They were easily the best team in baseball, and they were because they had the most talent and were put together better than any other team.

You don't go wire-to-wire and sweep a World Series unless you're easily the best team in baseball.

Sorry but on sheer talent they were not the "best" team. That year the best team didn't win the WS, the Reds won it, but to state they were the best team in baseball overall talent wise just isn't right.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:00 PM
Regarding the pitching, there's too much youth and not enough veterans. That's why they are struggling so much. What you'll get with youth though, is a stretch where they will pitch lights out. So, we have that to look forward to in the next month.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:05 PM
Sorry but on sheer talent they were not the "best" team. That year the best team didn't win the WS, the Reds won it, but to state they were the best team in baseball overall talent wise just isn't right.

You don't understand baseball. I don't know how else to say it. You can't argue against them having the best talent that season when they went wire-to-wire and swept the World Series. They had the best pitcher in all of baseball in Jose Rijo. They had the best 1-2-3 Relievers in all of baseball in Myers-Dibble-Charlton. They had the best Defense in all of baseball in the Cincinnati REDS, especially up the middle where it counts the most in Oliver-Larkin-Davis, and the rest of the Defense was great, too, with their Right Fielder having an outstanding arm.

You don't understand baseball at all if you can't understand how important Defense is. Having the #1 pitcher, the #1 bullpen and the #1 Defense made them the most talented team, and that's before adding the Offense of the best #2 hitter in all of baseball (Larkin), and the best #3 hitter in all of baseball in Davis. They always did the little things right. They also had a great Manager.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:05 PM
I'm sorry but i have ZERO respect for any manager who doesn't have final say on his roster. It is the job of the GM to go get the players, it is then the job of the manager to decide who makes the team and where they play and how much. If Walt is making these decisions then this team is in real trouble. I find it hard to believe that Walt ever told Tony L. whom to play, where to play them and such. Sorry but a GOOD GM knows his job and it's not managing the team.

Do you think the Reds GM's ever told Sparky who to play?

Sparky never had a say as far as who made the trip North.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 07:14 PM
You don't understand baseball. I don't know how else to say it. You can't argue against them having the best talent that season when they went wire-to-wire and swept the World Series. They had the best pitcher in all of baseball in Jose Rijo. They had the best 1-2-3 Relievers in all of baseball in Myers-Dibble-Charlton. They had the best Defense in all of baseball in the Cincinnati REDS, especially up the middle where it counts the most in Oliver-Larkin-Davis, and the rest of the Defense was great, too, with their Right Fielder having an outstanding arm.

You don't understand baseball at all if you can't understand how important Defense is. Having the #1 pitcher, the #1 bullpen and the #1 Defense made them the most talented team, and that's before adding the Offense of the best #2 hitter in all of baseball (Larkin), and the best #3 hitter in all of baseball in Davis. They always did the little things right. They also had a great Manager.

I love Jose Rijo, but exactly how was he the best pitcher in baseball? Did he win the Cy Young that year...you know the award to the best pitcher in baseball. The bullpen was great. They were a very good team that year, made it into the playoffs, squeeked by the Pirates and got outstanding pitching from Jose in the WS. They were the WC in 90, but they were not the best team. I don't believe the Reds even had the best overall season record that year.

brm7675
06-06-2011, 07:15 PM
Sparky never had a say as far as who made the trip North.

I find that very had to believe...

DocRed
06-06-2011, 07:21 PM
I like Brian Price. I'm not ready to put any blame on him after just a couple of seasons.

I do too and he has a good track record....but at what point do you stop ignoring how terrible our starting pitching has been?

3rd worst ERA in NL
Worst in walks
5th worst BA

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:23 PM
I do too and he has a good track record....but at what point do you stop ignoring how terrible our starting pitching has been?

3rd worst ERA in NL
Worst in walks
5th worst BA

If you're Walt, you've definitely had some "meetings".

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:26 PM
In all my life, all 46 years of it, I've never witnessed a manager, head coach, leader of a team, that has made me scratch my head in disbelief and question his decisions more than Dusty. No exaggeration.


I don't care what his overall record is, and if it's a winning record. He has had tons of talent everywhere he has managed.

I will go to my grave KNOWING and BELIEVING that The Reds win despite Dusty. Does he occasionally make a good decision? A blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. But his lineups are head scratchers day in and day out. His bullpen decisions generally are too.

My favorite line from Dusty was last year when he said that OBP is overrated. That pretty much said it all about Dusty.

While most of that has been true about Dusty, I feel that I've seen him changing a bit each of the last couple of years under Walt Jockety, whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for and believe to be the best G.M. in all of baseball. I didn't feel that way until I got to see him work with the REDS since he's been here.

Kingspoint
06-06-2011, 07:29 PM
I find that very had to believe...

He had a say, but it was far from being his decision. His job was to manage the players he was given. He had less say then, than Baker has now.

Redeye fly
06-06-2011, 10:20 PM
You want more reasons Baker must go...

"renteria is out indefinitely with a sore back, scott rolen has strep throat and could barely finish saturday’s game, and is not in today."
And they make no move to bring up players to replace those that can not play? So first we short staff the pitching staff and now we are short staffing the position players. Sorry but I am done with this administration. Both Dusty and Walt must go before this team can take the next step. It's bad enough we are carrying non producing AARP members and such, but now we are going into games with a non full roster because Dusty and Walt don't trust the minor league system. Watch out Bob..your team is slowly becoming the laughing stock in baseball...

Are you kidding me? I really do not even know why I'm bothering responding.

No, I repeat, no major league team is going to make a move to "replace the players who can not play" in that situation.

You can't just say, oh Scott Rolen can't play today, let's call up Juan Francisco. Then if Scott is ready to play tomorrow, we'll send him back down."

What "moves" are you going to make to replace the players who can not play, since you can't just call up 2 players and have 27 on the active roster?

You're not going to DL Rolen for strep throat. You're not going to DL Renteria for a day to day back problem. He may eventually go on the DL, but not until they deem it necessary and something that benefits both the player and the club.

If you call up guys every time a player gets sick or has a day to day injury, then you will be the laughingstock of major league baseball because again, no team does that.

Reds
06-06-2011, 10:25 PM
Unless you're in love with Sweet, it would be nice for those calling for Dusty's head to name a replacement they think could lead the team in a better direction. I happen to think Walt is looking for stability and if Dusty was to ever leave the replacement would come from inside.

Who Dey Time
06-06-2011, 10:53 PM
Unless you're in love with Sweet, it would be nice for those calling for Dusty's head to name a replacement they think could lead the team in a better direction. I happen to think Walt is looking for stability and if Dusty was to ever leave the replacement would come from inside.

They couldn't come up with one. They are so fixated with their Dusty hate that, in their warped minds, anyone off the street could do a better job.

Now if you were to logically evaluate what has happened with the Reds over the past 3 seasons it is clear that both Dusty and Walt have done a very good job. Yes the team has struggled recently but that, IMO, can be largely attributed to the lack of production from the rotation.

Anyone who hasn't seen the improvement in how this team plays since Walt and Dusty have taken over either are willingly ignoring what has happened or just isn't smart enough to know what is going on.

BAKER12
06-07-2011, 12:34 AM
Sparky never had a say as far as who made the trip North.

Herzog rarely had a say in who made the 25 man squad until he was GM and Manager in St.Louise

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 01:13 AM
Unless you're in love with Sweet, it would be nice for those calling for Dusty's head to name a replacement they think could lead the team in a better direction. I happen to think Walt is looking for stability and if Dusty was to ever leave the replacement would come from inside.

I'm Sweet's #1 fan. I wanted Dusty gone every year since he's been here. But I don't feel that way anymore about Baker. I think he's improved (because of his willingness to change and Walt Jockety working as his boss). Though I still think Sweet would be much better than Baker, I want Baker to stay here as the Manager through the end of his contract, at least.

signalhome
06-07-2011, 09:21 AM
They couldn't come up with one. They are so fixated with their Dusty hate that, in their warped minds, anyone off the street could do a better job.

Now if you were to logically evaluate what has happened with the Reds over the past 3 seasons it is clear that both Dusty and Walt have done a very good job. Yes the team has struggled recently but that, IMO, can be largely attributed to the lack of production from the rotation.

Anyone who hasn't seen the improvement in how this team plays since Walt and Dusty have taken over either are willingly ignoring what has happened or just isn't smart enough to know what is going on.

Maybe the Reds playing better had more to do with Votto reaching his potential, Bruce and Stubbs being key contributors (even without reaching their full potential both were over 4.0 WAR), and Cueto finally starting to put it all together. The argument could easily be made that the Reds' young talent is what made the difference in wins, not Dusty or Walt, seeing as how Walt isn't responsible for any of those players. Jocketty made a great move in bringing in Rolen -- a move I wasn't sold on at the time, considering Rolen's durability issues and declining production -- but outside of that move, most of the production last year came from players not drafted or acquired by Jocketty.

I'm not even taking a side in this stupid debate, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Who Dey Time
06-07-2011, 10:12 AM
Maybe the Reds playing better had more to do with Votto reaching his potential, Bruce and Stubbs being key contributors (even without reaching their full potential both were over 4.0 WAR), and Cueto finally starting to put it all together. The argument could easily be made that the Reds' young talent is what made the difference in wins, not Dusty or Walt, seeing as how Walt isn't responsible for any of those players. Jocketty made a great move in bringing in Rolen -- a move I wasn't sold on at the time, considering Rolen's durability issues and declining production -- but outside of that move, most of the production last year came from players not drafted or acquired by Jocketty.

I'm not even taking a side in this stupid debate, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I don't disagree with what you say above. However, there was a clear shift in philosophy when Dusty/Walt took over that focused on pitching, defense and playing solid fundamental baseball. The proof is that the Reds have one of the best defenses in all of MLB and are trying to build one of the better young rotations. The way that they run things is one of the reasons why Janish is still the starting SS as an example. They are willing to sacrifice Janish's obvious holes at the plate in order to have excellent defense at a key defensive position. The pre-Dusty Reds would try to win 10-9 every night hoping that Dunn, Junior, etc. would launch ball after ball into the Moon Deck and kept their fingers crossed that Eric Milton or Ramon Ortiz or Brandon Claussen wouldn't get completely lit up. We saw how that theory worked out over a 162-game season.

signalhome
06-07-2011, 10:39 AM
I don't disagree with what you say above. However, there was a clear shift in philosophy when Dusty/Walt took over that focused on pitching, defense and playing solid fundamental baseball. The proof is that the Reds have one of the best defenses in all of MLB and are trying to build one of the better young rotations. The way that they run things is one of the reasons why Janish is still the starting SS as an example. They are willing to sacrifice Janish's obvious holes at the plate in order to have excellent defense at a key defensive position. The pre-Dusty Reds would try to win 10-9 every night hoping that Dunn, Junior, etc. would launch ball after ball into the Moon Deck and kept their fingers crossed that Eric Milton or Ramon Ortiz or Brandon Claussen wouldn't get completely lit up. We saw how that theory worked out over a 162-game season.

Yet again, this great defense and young rotation is coming from players already aboard the organization before Jocketty was named GM. Stubbs and Bruce are the premier outfield defenders -- both Reds before Jocketty -- and Jocketty's LF acquisitions don't exactly flash the leather (Gomes, Lewis, and Hermida all have negative career UZRs). Phillips and Votto were already with the organization before Jocketty. Rolen was a big boost to the defense, no denying that. As far as SS goes, Jocketty brought in Cabrera and Renteria, neither of which are very good with the glove; once upon a time Cabrera was, but his range has since faded, and I think management knew that bringing him in. They were hoping he would bring more with the bat than he ultimately did. Janish is the Reds' only great defensive SS, and he has been with the organization long before Jocketty arrived. Of the six above-average defensive players in the Reds' lineup (1B, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, CF), only one was a Jocketty acquisition. Also, I'm not so sure they're content with sacrificing so much offense for the sake of Janish's defense, I just don't think there's a clear alternative. They tried using Renteria and Cabrera, neither being an above-average defender, but both have shown to be just as bad as Janish at the plate.

As far as the rotation goes, Cueto, Bailey, Wood, Volquez, and Arroyo were all part of the organization before Jocketty was GM. Leake is the only addition to the rotation provided by Jocketty. I wish I could add Chapman to this, but since they have relegated him to the bullpen for the foreseeable future, we can't exactly count him as part of the young rotation.

Again, it's easy to make the argument that this isn't really Jocketty's team, as he hasn't had much of a hand in putting it together. The Reds made excellent strides in the years prior to Jocketty acquiring a lot of talent through the draft and through trades. On the other hand, Jocketty did promote some of the young players to the bigs, so you could give him credit for building the team on that front. It's all in how you choose to look at it.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 11:24 AM
Are you kidding me? I really do not even know why I'm bothering responding.

No, I repeat, no major league team is going to make a move to "replace the players who can not play" in that situation.

You can't just say, oh Scott Rolen can't play today, let's call up Juan Francisco. Then if Scott is ready to play tomorrow, we'll send him back down."

No I DL Rolen for 15 days, I make sure he is fully healthy before allowing him to resume playing. At his age and issues he has, unless he is at 100% he is of no use to this team on the field. So yes I DL him for 15 and allow him to get healthy and I bring up Frazier and see what he can do at 3rd base over that two week time period.


You're not going to DL Rolen for strep throat. You're not going to DL Renteria for a day to day back problem. He may eventually go on the DL, but not until they deem it necessary and something that benefits both the player and the club.

Edgar is not day to day and a back issues needs rest, lots of rest. So I would DFA him, but since that isn't an option yes I DL him for 15 days, bring up either Cozart or Valaike and let them see some game action. Again Edgar must be at 100% to even come close to making a contribution to this team.

If you call up guys every time a player gets sick or has a day to day injury, then you will be the laughingstock of major league baseball because again, no team does that.

I am not not calling to do this for every player, but in these two cases given their age and health issues and lack already of performance, yes I DL both, let them rest and get better and see what our talented AAA players can do.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Unless you're in love with Sweet, it would be nice for those calling for Dusty's head to name a replacement they think could lead the team in a better direction. I happen to think Walt is looking for stability and if Dusty was to ever leave the replacement would come from inside.

Well had Walt been smart he would have gone after the guy the Braves got in the offseason to replace Cox, or he would have gone after Showalter. I would give long consideration to Dave Duncan with the Cards if he was interested. I would look at any of the coaches in the Twins organization and also give Willie Randolf a call.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't disagree with what you say above. However, there was a clear shift in philosophy when Dusty/Walt took over that focused on pitching, defense and playing solid fundamental baseball. The proof is that the Reds have one of the best defenses in all of MLB and are trying to build one of the better young rotations. The way that they run things is one of the reasons why Janish is still the starting SS as an example. They are willing to sacrifice Janish's obvious holes at the plate in order to have excellent defense at a key defensive position. The pre-Dusty Reds would try to win 10-9 every night hoping that Dunn, Junior, etc. would launch ball after ball into the Moon Deck and kept their fingers crossed that Eric Milton or Ramon Ortiz or Brandon Claussen wouldn't get completely lit up. We saw how that theory worked out over a 162-game season.

If we are so focused on the fundamentals then please explain to me the Reds HORRIBLE base running issues this season. Also explain this team inability to score runners in scoring position due to the lack of making contact at the plate. Also why are we playing someone at SS (Edgar) who is clearly past his ability to play that position and his number of errors reflect that? Why is our walk rate by our pitchers up this year? Sorry but these improvments you are seeing I don't.

Natty Redlocks
06-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Yet again, this great defense and young rotation is coming from players already aboard the organization before Jocketty was named GM. Stubbs and Bruce are the premier outfield defenders -- both Reds before Jocketty -- and Jocketty's LF acquisitions don't exactly flash the leather (Gomes, Lewis, and Hermida all have negative career UZRs). Phillips and Votto were already with the organization before Jocketty. Rolen was a big boost to the defense, no denying that. As far as SS goes, Jocketty brought in Cabrera and Renteria, neither of which are very good with the glove; once upon a time Cabrera was, but his range has since faded, and I think management knew that bringing him in. They were hoping he would bring more with the bat than he ultimately did. Janish is the Reds' only great defensive SS, and he has been with the organization long before Jocketty arrived. Of the six above-average defensive players in the Reds' lineup (1B, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, CF), only one was a Jocketty acquisition. Also, I'm not so sure they're content with sacrificing so much offense for the sake of Janish's defense, I just don't think there's a clear alternative. They tried using Renteria and Cabrera, neither being an above-average defender, but both have shown to be just as bad as Janish at the plate.

As far as the rotation goes, Cueto, Bailey, Wood, Volquez, and Arroyo were all part of the organization before Jocketty was GM. Leake is the only addition to the rotation provided by Jocketty. I wish I could add Chapman to this, but since they have relegated him to the bullpen for the foreseeable future, we can't exactly count him as part of the young rotation.

Again, it's easy to make the argument that this isn't really Jocketty's team, as he hasn't had much of a hand in putting it together. The Reds made excellent strides in the years prior to Jocketty acquiring a lot of talent through the draft and through trades. On the other hand, Jocketty did promote some of the young players to the bigs, so you could give him credit for building the team on that front. It's all in how you choose to look at it.

Good stuff. I'd add that I think Krivsky got a raw deal.

Who Dey Time
06-07-2011, 12:51 PM
If we are so focused on the fundamentals then please explain to me the Reds HORRIBLE base running issues this season. Also explain this team inability to score runners in scoring position due to the lack of making contact at the plate. Also why are we playing someone at SS (Edgar) who is clearly past his ability to play that position and his number of errors reflect that? Why is our walk rate by our pitchers up this year? Sorry but these improvments you are seeing I don't.

Once again you only wish to take the minimalist, short term view of the situation. I can take any small sample (you have chosen baserunning in 2011) and spin it as a negative. What you fail to notice (again) is the long term approach and attitude that both Dusty and Walt have brought to the team. While many of the players were already in the organization before their arrival, it is still incumbent upon them to build the roster according to the philosophy that they want to bring to the team. In the Reds case that philosophy emphasizes pitching, solid defense, agressive baserunning (see our 1st to 3rd success in the Dusty era as one example). These are the foundations that have been laid and those basics have helped the team achieve even when some of the individual players have struggled.

As for your raging rod for Renteria.....if you can't understand why having the World Series MVP on your roster can only benefit a young team trying to make and then advance in the playoffs from strictly a leadership point of view, then there is really no sense in trying to debate you.

texasdave
06-07-2011, 01:18 PM
As for your raging rod for Renteria.....if you can't understand why having the World Series MVP on your roster can only benefit a young team trying to make and then advance in the playoffs from strictly a leadership point of view, then there is really no sense in trying to debate you.

The Reds have 13 position players on the active roster. Removing Edgar Renteria still leaves 7 of the 12 being aged 30 or older. This is hardly a young team. And I am skeptical that adding another position player over the age of 30 tips any sort of balance in the team's favor. Adding him back in makes it 8 out of 13 position players being over 30.
The average age of the 13 position players is 30.2 years according to baseball-reference.com. Young team position-player wise? Not exactly. Now I freely admit that I have no inside knowledge of the inner workings of a clubhouse. Maybe Renteria is tutoring the pitching staff. I suppose that is possible. Somehow I don't see it. And would it really be necessary when you have 7 other veteran position players available to fill that role?

Who Dey Time
06-07-2011, 01:48 PM
The Reds have 13 position players on the active roster. Removing Edgar Renteria still leaves 7 of the 12 being aged 30 or older. This is hardly a young team. And I am skeptical that adding another position player over the age of 30 tips any sort of balance in the team's favor. Adding him back in makes it 8 out of 13 position players being over 30.
The average age of the 13 position players is 30.2 years according to baseball-reference.com. Young team position-player wise? Not exactly. Now I freely admit that I have no inside knowledge of the inner workings of a clubhouse. Maybe Renteria is tutoring the pitching staff. I suppose that is possible. Somehow I don't see it. And would it really be necessary when you have 7 other veteran position players available to fill that role?

He was brought here for one reason.....October. You have a roster full of players who, frankly, looked like the post-season was too big for them last year. Renteria is a vet who has been there done that in the postseason many times over. His leadership in that area will do wonders, IMO, if the Reds are able to get back.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 01:49 PM
Once again you only wish to take the minimalist, short term view of the situation. I can take any small sample (you have chosen baserunning in 2011) and spin it as a negative. What you fail to notice (again) is the long term approach and attitude that both Dusty and Walt have brought to the team. While many of the players were already in the organization before their arrival, it is still incumbent upon them to build the roster according to the philosophy that they want to bring to the team. In the Reds case that philosophy emphasizes pitching, solid defense, agressive baserunning (see our 1st to 3rd success in the Dusty era as one example). These are the foundations that have been laid and those basics have helped the team achieve even when some of the individual players have struggled.

As for your raging rod for Renteria.....if you can't understand why having the World Series MVP on your roster can only benefit a young team trying to make and then advance in the playoffs from strictly a leadership point of view, then there is really no sense in trying to debate you.

Sorry but baserunning and or the lack of knowing what to do is basic baseball and right now we suck at it and I blame Dusty and the coaching staff on this. How many times this season have we ran ourselves out of an inning due to just poor baseball. Take the Brandon Phillips issue at philly, did he sit the next game? NO, what message does that send?

As for Edgar, if he is so valuable why didn't the Giants keep him? Edgar is a waste of a roster spot plain and simple, he isn't a team player, he can't field his position and his bat is highly questionable at best. The Reds have much better younger and more versitile players in their system yet they bring in this "me" player and he has done nothing. Sorry but you are right there is no debate here, Edgar was a horrible addition to this roster.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 01:52 PM
He was brought here for one reason.....October. You have a roster full of players who, frankly, looked like the post-season was too big for them last year. Renteria is a vet who has been there done that in the postseason many times over. His leadership in that area will do wonders, IMO, if the Reds are able to get back.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Now that is laughable at best...

Who Dey Time
06-07-2011, 02:05 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Now that is laughable at best...

Laughable is suggesting that Fredi Gonzalez should have been hired as Reds manager in the offseason.

lonewolf371
06-07-2011, 02:21 PM
The Reds have 13 position players on the active roster. Removing Edgar Renteria still leaves 7 of the 12 being aged 30 or older. This is hardly a young team. And I am skeptical that adding another position player over the age of 30 tips any sort of balance in the team's favor. Adding him back in makes it 8 out of 13 position players being over 30.
The average age of the 13 position players is 30.2 years according to baseball-reference.com. Young team position-player wise? Not exactly. Now I freely admit that I have no inside knowledge of the inner workings of a clubhouse. Maybe Renteria is tutoring the pitching staff. I suppose that is possible. Somehow I don't see it. And would it really be necessary when you have 7 other veteran position players available to fill that role?
You're making the common mistake of averaging the whole roster to tell a team's age instead of its core. A team's age is determined by its core players, not the filler. The Colts for years have had one of the youngest teams in the NFL, but you look at Manning, Wayne, and Freeney and start ignoring the filler and you'll realize they're an old team.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Laughable is suggesting that Fredi Gonzalez should have been hired as Reds manager in the offseason.

He is light years better then Dusty will ever be.

bounty37h
06-07-2011, 04:01 PM
He is light years better then Dusty will ever be.

Think its time for me to take a break from this board, just will enjoy watching the game and stay away from here and these type of posts.

kfm
06-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Not ALL is fault, he he did chose WHOM to have in the rotation, it's order and such. He choses when to go to the bullpen, whom to pitch and how long.

Aren't the Reds 6-4 when he starts? Seems like his placement in the rotation for a guy who has performed as poorly as he has has worked out well for the reds.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Aren't the Reds 6-4 when he starts? Seems like his placement in the rotation for a guy who has performed as poorly as he has has worked out well for the reds.

EV performance has not been anywhere near ML ready outside of maybe 1-2 starts this season. Part of the problem is the Reds rushed him back last year and then this year rushed him through ST, the worst thing you can do with a pitcher coming back from TJ surgery.

kfm
06-07-2011, 04:51 PM
You don't understand baseball. I don't know how else to say it. You can't argue against them having the best talent that season when they went wire-to-wire and swept the World Series. They had the best pitcher in all of baseball in Jose Rijo. They had the best 1-2-3 Relievers in all of baseball in Myers-Dibble-Charlton. They had the best Defense in all of baseball in the Cincinnati REDS, especially up the middle where it counts the most in Oliver-Larkin-Davis, and the rest of the Defense was great, too, with their Right Fielder having an outstanding arm.

You don't understand baseball at all if you can't understand how important Defense is. Having the #1 pitcher, the #1 bullpen and the #1 Defense made them the most talented team, and that's before adding the Offense of the best #2 hitter in all of baseball (Larkin), and the best #3 hitter in all of baseball in Davis. They always did the little things right. They also had a great Manager.

I have to agree with Kingspoint. The pitcher with the lowest starters era of the 90's before his injuries was Jose Rijo. In today's game he would have been considered for the Cy Young but back then, the stonage it was still wins that people looked at. Check out the defense, and the pitching numbers. Not to mention, the games were about six innings long because of the bullpen. It is arguable whether they were the best team for that season, but for what a team needs to win in the playoffs, a dominant starting pitcher, shutdown bullpen, speed and defense they were clearly the best. Don't give me the A's as the best team, they went to three world series and got smashed in two of them.

kfm
06-07-2011, 04:56 PM
EV performance has not been anywhere near ML ready outside of maybe 1-2 starts this season. Part of the problem is the Reds rushed him back last year and then this year rushed him through ST, the worst thing you can do with a pitcher coming back from TJ surgery.

I have to assume that the Doctor's determine when a guy is phyiscally ready or not. Don't you assume the same? Do you believe that Walt and Dusty should discount what the doctor's tell them. If he was rushed back from TJ, I think this lies with the Doctors and i don't know that I want a manager or General manager overruling doctor's advice. As for spring training, how many innings does it take for a pitcher to be ready. I really have no idea. I am assuming since you feel so strongly you must have some notion of how many innings a starting pitcher needs to get ready. My only point is that his placement in the rotation has cost the reds at a winning percent clip of .600. So if the doctor's gave him the ok and the team is winnng when he starts more than it is winning on other days, your issue as far as Walt and Dusty comes down to rushing him through ST, correct?

brm7675
06-07-2011, 04:59 PM
I have to agree with Kingspoint. The pitcher with the lowest starters era of the 90's before his injuries was Jose Rijo. In today's game he would have been considered for the Cy Young but back then, the stonage it was still wins that people looked at. Check out the defense, and the pitching numbers. Not to mention, the games were about six innings long because of the bullpen. It is arguable whether they were the best team for that season, but for what a team needs to win in the playoffs, a dominant starting pitcher, shutdown bullpen, speed and defense they were clearly the best. Don't give me the A's as the best team, they went to three world series and got smashed in two of them.

Please don't tell me you are determining "who' the best team is by "whom" won the world Series?

brm7675
06-07-2011, 05:01 PM
I have to assume that the Doctor's determine when a guy is phyiscally ready or not. Don't you assume the same? Do you believe that Walt and Dusty should discount what the doctor's tell them. If he was rushed back from TJ, I think this lies with the Doctors and i don't know that I want a manager or General manager overruling doctor's advice. As for spring training, how many innings does it take for a pitcher to be ready. I really have no idea. I am assuming since you feel so strongly you must have some notion of how many innings a starting pitcher needs to get ready. My only point is that his placement in the rotation has cost the reds at a winning percent clip of .600. So if the doctor's gave him the ok and the team is winnng when he starts more than it is winning on other days, your issue as far as Walt and Dusty comes down to rushing him through ST, correct?

I believe physically EV was healed, but when you have sat out for that amount of time with that type of injury, most will say you need at "least" 1 year of rehab before your arm, body and mind are back to where they were before the injury. He came off the DL somepoint in late May or June I think of last year. It is just now, had they taken the right time and work with him that he should be rejoining the staff. Instead they rushed him back for some stupid reason and we see what it has caused. the fault in NOT with the doctors but with Walt and Dusty.

signalhome
06-07-2011, 05:04 PM
The pitcher with the lowest starters era of the 90's before his injuries was Jose Rijo.

Pitching Stats from 1989-1993 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=1993&month=0&season1=1989&ind=0)

You're indeed correct; from 1989-1993 (Rijo's first full year as a starter through his last injury-free season), Rijo indeed posted the lowest ERA in baseball. He was also #3 in FIP and #4 in WAR. In that five-year span, he was right there with Clemens and Maddux as the best pitcher in baseball. It'd be nice for the Reds to have a pitcher of that caliber again.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/rijos-unrewarded-brilliance/

An article on how pitcher wins did not favor Rijo at all, especially through one brutal stretch from 1988-1989.

signalhome
06-07-2011, 05:11 PM
Please don't tell me you are determining "who' the best team is by "whom" won the world Series?

http://web.ku.edu/~edit/whom.html

kfm
06-07-2011, 05:27 PM
Please don't tell me you are determining "who' the best team is by "whom" won the world Series?

I don't think I did that at all. I clearly laid out why I believed the Reds were better than the A's and why they were successful in the playoffs. I actually think that the Pirates were better than the A's. Sometimes the best team wins the world series and sometimes they don't. To me the A's were the Buffalo Bills a very dominant team and the best in their conference. Ignoring the fact that they were beat so soundly by two different national league teams is as short sighted as saying the best team always wins the world series.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 05:44 PM
I don't think I did that at all. I clearly laid out why I believed the Reds were better than the A's and why they were successful in the playoffs. I actually think that the Pirates were better than the A's. Sometimes the best team wins the world series and sometimes they don't. To me the A's were the Buffalo Bills a very dominant team and the best in their conference. Ignoring the fact that they were beat so soundly by two different national league teams is as short sighted as saying the best team always wins the world series.

For me...I determine the best team of a season, not by whom gets hot in a series, but who performs the best over an entire season. In 1990 Oakland went I believe 103-59 for a .636 winning %. No other team in baseball that season even had a .600 winning %. The Pirates had the second best winning % followed by the White Sox then the Reds and then the Red Sox. So best 'team' that year was the A's. The winner of the 1990 WS was the Reds.

texasdave
06-07-2011, 05:58 PM
Oakland had better regular-season numbers across the board. The Reds swept them in the Series.


OAKLAND CINCINNATI
OPS+ 118 118
ERA+ 107 95
DEF EFF 0.732 0.713
RUNS-SC 733 693
RUNS-AL 570 597
DIFF 163 96
WINS 103 91

texasdave
06-07-2011, 06:12 PM
I had forgotten how dominant Dennis Eckersley was back then. His numbers were sick. In 1989/1990: 131 IP 73 HITS 15 ER 7 HR 7 BB 128 K. One of the walks was intentional. He gave up 6 BB in 131 IP, or about 1 BB every 22 IP. :eek:

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Pitching, Defense and clutch hitting ALWAYS dominates great hitting. That's why the REDS were a much, much, much better team than the A's going into the series, and why I had zero doubt in my mind that we would easily defeat them. "The public" gets wrapped up in Offense (chicks dig the long-ball), but it's Pitching, Defense, and timely hitting that always wins. No further evidence than the Phillies sweep of the REDS last year and the Giants' defeat of the Phillies last year.

The A's were nothing but great hitting with the exception of Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersly. Their defense was atrocious. Stewart wasn't as good as Rijo, so Stewart became meaningless to them. Eckersly can't save a game if they can't get a lead. We kicked Eck's butt, too with timely hitting. And, we had the best non-pitcher, too, in Eric Davis. The series was over when Davis homered in the 1st inning against Stewart to put the Reds ahead for the game and the series.

Vottomatic
06-07-2011, 07:04 PM
(chicks dig the long-ball)

What does size have to do with it?

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 07:05 PM
Oakland had better regular-season numbers across the board. The Reds swept them in the Series.


OAKLAND CINCINNATI
OPS+ 118 118
ERA+ 107 95
DEF EFF 0.732 0.713
RUNS-SC 733 693
RUNS-AL 570 597
DIFF 163 96
WINS 103 91


The A's had a DH all season while the REDS had a pitcher batting in the #9 hole all season, so the REDS' regular season numbers were better, too, when you take that into account.

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 07:10 PM
Never forget:

The formula for having the best team in baseball is always this:

Have the best pitcher, or someone who has the potential to be the best pitcher that particular season. You only need one as that pitcher can go three times in a 7-game series and twice in a 5-game series. (We don't have one right now.)

Have a dominant bullpen so that you never give up a lead after the 6th inning. [We might have one among Bray/Masset/Ondrusek/Cordero/Chapman (when he gets it figured out)].

Have a clutch home-run hitter in the middle of your lineup. (Bruce/Votto)

Have one of the 3 or 4 best defenses in the league, especially up the middle. (we have that in Stubbs/Phillips/Janish/Hanigan)

brm7675
06-07-2011, 07:14 PM
Pitching, Defense and clutch hitting ALWAYS dominates great hitting. That's why the REDS were a much, much, much better team than the A's going into the series, and why I had zero doubt in my mind that we would easily defeat them. "The public" gets wrapped up in Offense (chicks dig the long-ball), but it's Pitching, Defense, and timely hitting that always wins. No further evidence than the Phillies sweep of the REDS last year and the Giants' defeat of the Phillies last year.

The A's were nothing but great hitting with the exception of Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersly. Their defense was atrocious. Stewart wasn't as good as Rijo, so Stewart became meaningless to them. Eckersly can't save a game if they can't get a lead. We kicked Eck's butt, too with timely hitting. And, we had the best non-pitcher, too, in Eric Davis. The series was over when Davis homered in the 1st inning against Stewart to put the Reds ahead for the game and the series.

So to you the regular season means nothing?

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 07:21 PM
So to you the regular season means nothing?

The Atlanta Braves only won one World Series among those 10 consecutive Division Titles. The Florida Marlins won twice.

texasdave
06-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Pitching, Defense and clutch hitting ALWAYS dominates great hitting. That's why the REDS were a much, much, much better team than the A's going into the series, and why I had zero doubt in my mind that we would easily defeat them. "The public" gets wrapped up in Offense (chicks dig the long-ball), but it's Pitching, Defense, and timely hitting that always wins. No further evidence than the Phillies sweep of the REDS last year and the Giants' defeat of the Phillies last year.

The A's were nothing but great hitting with the exception of Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersly. Their defense was atrocious. Stewart wasn't as good as Rijo, so Stewart became meaningless to them. Eckersly can't save a game if they can't get a lead. We kicked Eck's butt, too with timely hitting. And, we had the best non-pitcher, too, in Eric Davis. The series was over when Davis homered in the 1st inning against Stewart to put the Reds ahead for the game and the series.

There defense was atrocious? Are you serious? I have yet to see a Defensive Efficiency rating higher than there .732. They converted batted balls into outs at an outstanding rate.
And you are right. The AL had a DH. Which makes the fact that their team ERA was lower than the Reds all the more remarkable. Their bullpen had a lower team ERA than the Reds.

The Oakland As were far and away the best team in the majors in 1990.

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 07:30 PM
There defense was atrocious? Are you serious? I have yet to see a Defensive Efficiency rating higher than there .732. They converted batted balls into outs at an outstanding rate.
And you are right. The AL had a DH. Which makes the fact that their team ERA was lower than the Reds all the more remarkable. Their bullpen had a lower team ERA than the Reds.

The Oakland As were far and away the best team in the majors in 1990.

That rating had a lot to do with the massive foul territories that they had back then at Oakland, along with a deeper outfield than most parks. There were a tremendous amount of flyouts. Ricky Henderson was a poor Outfielder,....for back then. Canseco was an absolute joke. Steinbach was the best Defensive Catcher in the American League. Carney Lansford was not a good 3rd Baseman. He had no range. He's like Scott Rolen is now, but worse. He gets what comes to him, but he doesn't get to anything else. Dave Stewart was the best Defensive Pitcher in the AL, but he only played every 5th game. McGwire was a terrible defensive 1st Baseman.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 07:54 PM
The Atlanta Braves only won one World Series among those 10 consecutive Division Titles. The Florida Marlins won twice.

Okay? Are you saying that the Marlins were a better team because they won 2 and the Braves only won 1?

brm7675
06-07-2011, 07:56 PM
That rating had a lot to do with the massive foul territories that they had back then at Oakland, along with a deeper outfield than most parks. There were a tremendous amount of flyouts. Ricky Henderson was a poor Outfielder,....for back then. Canseco was an absolute joke. Steinbach was the best Defensive Catcher in the American League. Carney Lansford was not a good 3rd Baseman. He had no range. He's like Scott Rolen is now, but worse. He gets what comes to him, but he doesn't get to anything else. Dave Stewart was the best Defensive Pitcher in the AL, but he only played every 5th game. McGwire was a terrible defensive 1st Baseman.

And yet the numbers still show they were the overall best team in 1990..why do you continue to look past the numbers. Anything can happen in a short series...great teams win over the course of an entire 162 game season...

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Okay? Are you saying that the Marlins were a better team because they won 2 and the Braves only won 1?

Yes. It's all about the rings.

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 08:43 PM
And yet the numbers still show they were the overall best team in 1990..why do you continue to look past the numbers. Anything can happen in a short series...great teams win over the course of an entire 162 game season...

Because you play for the ring, not the "regular season winner". That's like kissing your sister.

Redeye fly
06-07-2011, 10:00 PM
Well, then if you were running the team, you would be either the dumbest GM in the game, or the smartest. Because again, you'd be one of the very few if not only ones to do something like that.

That's to brm7675 in his response to me. It wouldn't let me quote it again.

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 10:30 PM
Well, then if you were running the team, you would be either the dumbest GM in the game, or the smartest. Because again, you'd be one of the very few if not only ones to do something like that.

That's to brm7675 in his response to me. It wouldn't let me quote it again.

That's all you can afford to do if you're a small market club. You can't place your resources on your "everyday" lineup. It has to be heavily slanted towards acquiring an ACE pitcher, solid relievers, and a good Manager who knows how to push the right buttons so that players play confidently enough to have timely hits. You also need that one great clutch home-run hitter, too.

Then, the goal is to just "make the playoffs", not win the Division. You have to be able to be among the 25% best in your league. You don't have to be the best, the second best, or even the third best, necessarily. Once in the playoffs, there are 11 games that have to be won. Your ACE can potentially win 8 of them if all of them get stretched out to their maximum number of games.

Getting to the playoffs means more than one great starting pitcher, though he's going to end losing streaks on a consistent basis, always keeping the team competitive. Slanting your payroll spending on a couple of solid #3 Starters gives you that chance you need to win enough games to reach the playoffs. The rest of the money has to be spent on the farm system.

Basically, exactly the way the REDS have been running things the last 7 seasons.

kfm
06-07-2011, 10:51 PM
The problem with this entire discussion is that baseball is a sport that dramatically changes from the regular season to the postseason. Depth and balance can help a team like the Seattle Mariners win more than 110 games during a regular season when Bret Boone was there, but does little during the playoffs. You go from needing 5 starters to only 3 in some cases. Your bullpen becomes much more important and defensive mistakes are escalated in games that are often lower scoring. You can have 5 number 3 pitchers and win a whole bunch of regular season games, but you will have a very difficult time in the playoffs. So the question is do you want a team that is built to achieve greatness in the regular season or a team that is built to win championships in the postseason. The notion that the regular season is meaningless is a silly point. If you can't make it to the postseason people care and remember you even less than if you win a bunch of regular season games and get eliminated in the first round. I can remember the world series winners going back a long way, who had the best record in the regular season for the last 20 years, I have no idea and really don't care.

Reds
06-07-2011, 10:58 PM
I guess if I had to make one move that I think could get done I'd inquire about Felix Hernandez.

Kingspoint
06-07-2011, 11:08 PM
I guess if I had to make one move that I think could get done I'd inquire about Felix Hernandez.

The Mariners are the biggest story of this season so far. For those who don't know, they've won something like 10 straight series or something like that.

Actually, had to look it up.

They just lost their current series to the White Sox.

But, going into this series, here's what they had recently done.

Took 3 of 4 from Tampa Bay.
Took 3 of 3 from Baltimore.
Took 2 of 3 from Minnesota.
Took 3 of 3 from San Diego.
Took 2 of 2 from Los Angeles Angels.
Took 1 of 2 from Minnesota.
Took 0 of 1 from Cleveland (2 rainouts).
Took 0 of 3 from Baltimore.
Took 1 of 3 from Chicago White Sox.
Took 2 of 3 from Texas.
Took 2 of 3 from Boston.
Took 2 of 3 from Detroit.

That's 24 of 37 (or 24-13). It's all Starting Pitching, Defense, a great Bullpen, and timely hitting. This is a team that could win the World Series if they could survive the regular season. Their hitting is absolutely atrocious, but Pineda and Hernandez are stellar.

tkemmerer14
06-07-2011, 11:12 PM
Because you play for the ring, not the "regular season winner". That's like kissing your sister.

obviously you arent a Kentucky Reds fan:lol: