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Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:01 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/06/06/time-for-a-shake-up/

Absolutely no reason why Alonso and Cozart aren't playing everyday at this point. Mesoraco should join them in due time. That way you can use the month of June to see if they can hold LF and SS down properly, or you have to make a significant move to acquire a major asset (Reyes, Beltran, etc.)

LvJ
06-06-2011, 02:07 PM
It's so obviously a good idea that the Reds just won't do it.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Who do you send down if they were to bring up Alonso & Cozart? I'd guess a DL stint for Renteria, but when that's up...who's your sacrificial lamb?

LvJ
06-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Who do you send down if they were to bring up Alonso & Cozart? I'd guess a DL stint for Renteria, but when that's up...who's your sacrificial lamb?

What is the point of keeping him around? Trade or DFA him. He's been horrible on the field and with the bat. He's old. He's done.

DFA Edgar and Gomes.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:16 PM
Who do you send down if they were to bring up Alonso & Cozart? I'd guess a DL stint for Renteria, but when that's up...who's your sacrificial lamb?

Do what was rumored to be done last week when Herrera was waived:

Bring up Cozart, DL Renteria
Bring up Alonso, DFA Gomes
Assuming he has a decent start tonight, bring up Willis, DFA Reinke

When Renteria's DL stint is up, you can DFA him (if Cozart plays very well,) send Cozart down, or make a trade for a SS (like Reyes, Furcal, or Hardy.)

If Rolen's issues flare up, I would DL him and bring up Frazier. If we're ever going to start taking advantage of our AAA assets, now is the time. As Fay so astutely noted, "Now is the time for a shakeup."

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 02:17 PM
Do what was rumored to be done last week when Herrera was waived:

Bring up Cozart, DL Renteria
Bring up Alonso, DFA Gomes
Assuming he has a decent start tonight, bring up Willis, DFA Reinke

When Renteria's DL stint is up, you can DFA him (if Cozart plays very well,) send Cozart down, or make a trade for a SS (like Reyes, Furcal, or Hardy.)

If Rolen's issues flare up, I would DL him and bring up Frazier. If we're ever going to start taking advantage of our AAA assets, now is the time. As Fay so astutely noted, "Now is the time for a shakeup."

I can see Cozart and Willis, but they might not want to bring Alonso up, see him flop, and then have his value sink before the deadline.

CrackerJack
06-06-2011, 02:18 PM
What is the point of keeping him around? Trade or DFA him. He's been horrible on the field and with the bat. He's old. He's done.

DFA Edgar and Gomes.

But he's the World Series MVP....

Brutus
06-06-2011, 02:18 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't view Cozart as the answer. The kid hasn't had a single major league at-bat and is still inconsistent in the minors (and far from a sure thing). We don't even know he'd be an upgrade when he first got to the bigs. I think he has a good future as an average or above-average shortstop, but I'm not sure that time is now.

The LF situation doesn't necessitate bringing Alonso up yet IMHO. Chris Heisey is batting just a hair below .800 OPS and is providing above average defense. And since Gomes hasn't started but more than a few times in the past couple weeks, it's clear the Reds have decided he's not the answer there now.

cinreds21
06-06-2011, 02:19 PM
I'd rather have Frazier up than Alonso right now. For some reason I don't want to have three middle of the order power bats in Votto, Bruce, and Alonso. However, at this point I wouldn't be mad if they brought up Yonder instead.

LvJ
06-06-2011, 02:21 PM
I'd rather have Frazier up than Alonso right now. For some reason I don't want to have three middle of the order power bats in Votto, Bruce, and Alonso. However, at this point I wouldn't be mad if they brought up Yonder instead.

:confused: I don't understand that logic.

VR
06-06-2011, 02:22 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.

kaldaniels
06-06-2011, 02:23 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.

Yep. This team will improve marginally if some new bats are introduced in the lineup...but its all moot until the starting pitching shows up.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:23 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't view Cozart as the answer. The kid hasn't had a single major league at-bat and is still inconsistent in the minors (and far from a sure thing). We don't even know he'd be an upgrade when he first got to the bigs. I think he has a good future as an average or above-average shortstop, but I'm not sure that time is now.

The LF situation doesn't necessitate bringing Alonso up yet IMHO. Chris Heisey is batting just a hair below .800 OPS and is providing above average defense. And since Gomes hasn't started but more than a few times in the past couple weeks, it's clear the Reds have decided he's not the answer there now.


The reason why I think both Cozart and Alonso need to be up and playing right now is so the Reds can see what if any major league pieces they need to add via trades this season. Most major trades happen in July, when teams have decided definitively to waive the white flag. Unfortunately, it remains dubious as to whether there will be any frontline starters available via trade this year. Therefore, the most likely pieces the Reds could add to booster their current team are in LF or SS. Before dealing away a significant piece of the farm, I'd rather see if the Reds can plug those holes organically. It has become clear that neither Janish nor Heisey (despite his near .800 OPS) will likely be the long-term, starting answers to those positions. Therefore, see if the most likely next-in-line can handle the duties or not, and proceed from there.

I believe the Reds have correctly determined that Heisey's best use is as a 4th OF. Janish's best use is as a defensive replacement. Let's see if we can figure out where Alonso and Cozart figure into the occasion, and if they're not the answer, then we have to make a significant trade.

OesterPoster
06-06-2011, 02:25 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.

Did you read the entire article? He talks about pitching being the problem, but nothing really to do there right now (from within).


This team has generally been as good or as bad as its starting pithing. There’s not a lot they can do there — except wait for Homer Bailey to get well and hope that Edinson Volquez’s exile to Triple-A did the trick.

Here are some things they could do:

Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:28 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.

Please tell me what reportedly available pitching the Reds could acquire. In the past, arms like Greinke, Lee, Oswalt, Halladay et al have been available. This year, all of those arms, and others like them, happen to be stashed on contending teams. You could take a chance on an injured arm like Santana or Liriano, but not sure that's realistic given cash or even likely to be an improvement. The only three names I can think of that could possibly be available, somewhat realistic, and would help the Reds are Billingsley, Guthrie and Danks, and I have gone on the record advocating the Reds make an attempt to go after them.

I agree that SP is the biggest problem that ails this team. However unfortunately due to the current landscape, the Reds' best hope to solve the SP conundrum at this point is hoping and wishing that Bailey and/or Volquez return to form/health. Therefore, I'm focused on the 2nd and 3rd biggest problems, which are LF and SS.

VR
06-06-2011, 02:31 PM
Did you read the entire article? He talks about pitching being the problem, but nothing really to do there right now (from within).

I did catch that. Adding those young players will do nothing to improve the pitching, we're going to have to wait for that. While we do.....why not give these guys more everyday experience at AAA rather than bringing them up here to see action 50% of the time. It's only June, and as I mentioned....nothing changes until the staff is healthy and producing.

Taking your #2 and #3 starters out of the mix.... as well as a dominant BP arm....and .500 is about to be expected.

Brutus
06-06-2011, 02:33 PM
The reason why I think both Cozart and Alonso need to be up and playing right now is so the Reds can see what if any major league pieces they need to add via trades this season. Most major trades happen in July, when teams have decided definitively to waive the white flag. Unfortunately, it remains dubious as to whether there will be any frontline starters available via trade this year. Therefore, the most likely pieces the Reds could add to booster their current team are in LF or SS. Before dealing away a significant piece of the farm, I'd rather see if the Reds can plug those holes organically. It has become clear that neither Janish nor Heisey (despite his near .800 OPS) will likely be the long-term, starting answers to those positions. Therefore, see if the most likely next-in-line can handle the duties or not, and proceed from there.

I believe the Reds have correctly determined that Heisey's best use is as a 4th OF. Janish's best use is as a defensive replacement. Let's see if we can figure out where Alonso and Cozart figure into the occasion, and if they're not the answer, then we have to make a significant trade.

I think someone alluded to this already, but I absolutely don't want Alonso brought up unless the Reds are committed to keeping him as a long-term answer in left (or substitute for Votto if they believe he's going to walk in two years). Right now, as long as he's raking in AAA, he'll continue to have great trade value. Bring him up to the bigs and risk his struggling, it might diminish some of his value. So if the Reds feel they need to go down to the minors to address the position, I agree with the idea that it should be Frazier.

That said, I still believe Lewis & Heisey can continue to be an effective platoon. Lewis has been struggling, but he's got a long enough track record to indicate he'll be all right. Heisey has been committed to as an everyday player, but I'm neither convinced he can't be or convinced the Reds don't believe he can be.

I(heart)Freel
06-06-2011, 02:34 PM
If Cozart plays solid dee, what exactly do you lose by bringing him up?

The downside is Janish-like production (status quo) and the upside is a real 8-hole hitter.

Seems like a no-brainer. The Renteria-DL possibly makes it zero-risk.

VR
06-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Please tell me what reportedly available pitching the Reds could acquire. In the past, arms like Greinke, Lee, Oswalt, Halladay et al have been available. This year, all of those arms, and others like them, happen to be stashed on contending teams. You could take a chance on an injured arm like Santana or Liriano, but not sure that's realistic given cash or even likely to be an improvement. The only three names I can think of that could possibly be available, somewhat realistic, and would help the Reds are Billingsley, Guthrie and Danks, and I have gone on the record advocating the Reds make an attempt to go after them.

I agree that SP is the biggest problem that ails this team. However unfortunately due to the current landscape, the Reds' best hope to solve the SP conundrum at this point is hoping and wishing that Bailey and/or Volquez return to form/health. Therefore, I'm focused on the 2nd and 3rd biggest problems, which are LF and SS.

Beni....not about acquiring for me at this point, it's about getting healthy. No amount of added offense is going to make up for this staff right now.

LvJ
06-06-2011, 02:34 PM
What would a Jeremy Guthrie cost?

cumberlandreds
06-06-2011, 02:41 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.

The truest statements in this thread. The Reds aren't making significant improvement this season unless the starting pitching is much better. Since its highly unlikely they will add an effective starting arm via a trade then our hopes for a playoff season rides with Bailey being healthy. Volquez coming back from the minors and finding the strike zone consistently. To be honest with you I find very little hope on either one of those happening this season.
Adding a bat will just mean the Reds lose 9-8 instead of 9-6.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:42 PM
Beni....not about acquiring for me at this point, it's about getting healthy. No amount of added offense is going to make up for this staff right now.

So we should just punt until everyone is healthy??

That makes no sense to me at all. We can't control health, we can control trying to improve the team.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 02:43 PM
What would a Jeremy Guthrie cost?

My guess is they ask for Alonso with no long-term solution at 1B. We offer Sappelt and some change (Boxberger?)

Hoosier Red
06-06-2011, 02:45 PM
I think someone alluded to this already, but I absolutely don't want Alonso brought up unless the Reds are committed to keeping him as a long-term answer in left (or substitute for Votto if they believe he's going to walk in two years). Right now, as long as he's raking in AAA, he'll continue to have great trade value. Bring him up to the bigs and risk his struggling, it might diminish some of his value. So if the Reds feel they need to go down to the minors to address the position, I agree with the idea that it should be Frazier.

That said, I still believe Lewis & Heisey can continue to be an effective platoon. Lewis has been struggling, but he's got a long enough track record to indicate he'll be all right. Heisey has been committed to as an everyday player, but I'm neither convinced he can't be or convinced the Reds don't believe he can be.

I agree with this. I think the tradeable commodities like Alonso and(dare I say Mesoraco) are better served continuing to put up huge numbers in AAA.

I'd bring up Frazier and give him a month's worth of playing time in LF. Drop Lewis or Gomes.
I'd bring up Cozart and give him a month's worth of playing time at SS. If his D is solid, he's no worse than the two we have running out there now.

I'd package Alonso with some lower minor guys and one of the young starters(Wood or Leake) for an Ace. I'm not sure if we'd need more than that, but that's what I'd be looking for.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 02:47 PM
I guess Juan Francisco retired from baseball. I didn't see his name in this thread. (He is only hitting .330 at AAA.)

Hoosier Red
06-06-2011, 02:49 PM
I guess Juan Francisco retired from baseball. I didn't see his name in this thread. (He is only hitting .330 at AAA.)

Maybe bring him up in favor of Fred Lewis?

I've always been higher on Todd Frazier, but I could be talked into Francisco's bonafides.

I(heart)Freel
06-06-2011, 02:55 PM
Adding a bat will just mean the Reds lose 9-8 instead of 9-6.


While I agree that pitching is the more glaring problem, it's much easier (again, almost no-brainer) to try to improve the offense from within.

Some actual numbers:

Last 31 games, runs scored avg:4.64
Last 31 games, runs allowed avg: 4.70

It is NOT in fact a waste of time to talk about improving the offense that so many on here seem to think.

If the defense isn't compromised, why not try to score a few more runs, when there seemingly are some AAA bats to try?

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 02:56 PM
So we should just punt until everyone is healthy??

That makes no sense to me at all. We can't control health, we can control trying to improve the team.

Janish/Edgar and Lewis/Heisey/Gomes is "punting", when the alternative is Alonso in LF and Cozart?

Not sure that this is the definition of punting.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 03:01 PM
Janish/Edgar and Lewis/Heisey/Gomes is "punting", when the alternative is Alonso in LF and Cozart?

Not sure that this is the definition of punting.

No, punting is not even trying to improve the team until the pitching gets healthy.

My frustration with Walt is starting to mount. Enough sitting on your hands already, get out there and do something.

For the record, I don't have a strong preference between calling up Frazier vs. Alonso. I get the argument of not destroying Alonso's trade value by calling him up, but I also believe he has a better chance of being the longterm solution in LF than Frazier, who I think will make more of a mark as a 3B/utility guy.

dfs
06-06-2011, 03:03 PM
They get LeCure and Volquez back this week.
They get Homer back next week.
Probably Chapman back at least by the week after that.

That's gonna make ANY move he makes right now with the hitters look brilliant.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:06 PM
No, punting is not even trying to improve the team until the pitching gets healthy.

My frustration with Walt is starting to mount. Enough sitting on your hands already, get out there and do something.

For the record, I don't have a strong preference between calling up Frazier vs. Alonso. I get the argument of not destroying Alonso's trade value by calling him up, but I also believe he has a better chance of being the longterm solution in LF than Frazier, who I think will make more of a mark as a 3B/utility guy.

Give me Frazier, if a move is made. Can spell Rolen at 3B as well.

I can see Gomes or Lewis getting bounced in favor of Frazier and Cozart coming up with Edgar hitting the DL. Unsure how bad his back is, but if it is legit then they should use it.

dougdirt
06-06-2011, 03:07 PM
I guess Juan Francisco retired from baseball. I didn't see his name in this thread. (He is only hitting .330 at AAA.)

21 strikeouts. 4 walks. Must improve before he is ready to play every day in the majors.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 03:09 PM
They get LeCure and Volquez back this week.
They get Homer back next week.
Probably Chapman back at least by the week after that.

That's gonna make ANY move he makes right now with the hitters look brilliant.

They get LeCure back? :rockband: He's REALLY going to make hitters look brilliant!

Homer and Chapman are anyone's guess, and why wait 2 or more weeks to begin improvements? Can this team afford another 2+ week-long losing streak?

Benihana
06-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Give me Frazier, if a move is made. Can spell Rolen at 3B as well.

I can see Gomes or Lewis getting bounced in favor of Frazier and Cozart coming up with Edgar hitting the DL. Unsure how bad his back is, but if it is legit then they should use it.

Which is pretty consistent with what I've said all along. So what's your beef?

cinreds21
06-06-2011, 03:13 PM
:confused: I don't understand that logic.

Just too many left-handed power bats. That would only leave you with Rolen as the only right-hander in the middle of the order.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Which is pretty consistent with what I've said all along. So what's your beef?

No beef, but I wouldn't consider it "punting" if they have more faith in the short term in what they have over what is below..

Benihana
06-06-2011, 03:14 PM
Just too many left-handed power bats. That would only leave you with Rolen as the only right-hander in the middle of the order.

Who. Cares. Are you Dusty's son?

Phillips and Stubbs bat right-handed.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:16 PM
21 strikeouts. 4 walks. Must improve before he is ready to play every day in the majors.

Nobody said JF should play every day in the majors. He is too good for AAA and can add needed offense to the Reds. He is hitting .330 and was starting to look much better as a Red when he got hurt.

Here's what I would do --

1. Add minor leaguers to supplement the offense.

Trade Cairo. Use Francisco to play third base behind Rolen. Use JF generously as a backup.

Trade Renteria. Bring up Cozart and have him split time with Janish at SS.

Trade or DFA Gomes and Lewis. Replace them with Alonso and Frazier. Perhaps Alonso and Heisey platoon in LF. Frazier plays utility. Or platoon Alonso and Frazier in LF with Heisey for double switches (like now).

2. Trade for a good starting pitcher at the deadline. Use Hanigan (or Hernandez), Grandal, Sappelt, Travis Wood, and Volquez as bait. Possibly even Homer B. Hopefully Wood and Volquez will put up better numbers by then.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:18 PM
This has become the "get rid of the veterans" movement.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:20 PM
This has become the "get rid of the veterans" movement.

My view is that the offense is good but too concentrated on a few guys. It doesn't require major surgery. Just beef it up with the good young hitters from the minors.

I know you lose veteran leadership that way, but some of these guys aren't producing any more and Reds would be better off giving Alonso, Frazier, Francisco and Cozart some PT.


The pitching, on the other hand, requires a major addition from the outside. I would trade for a pitcher. Don't see that person in the high minors right now.

Youth movement on offense. Veteran for the staff. IMO.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:24 PM
My view is that the offense is good but too concentrated on a few guys. It doesn't require major surgery. Just beef it up with the good young hitters from the minors.

I know you lose veteran leadership that way, but some of these guys aren't producing any more and Reds would be better off giving Alonso, Frazier, Francisco and Cozart some PT.


The pitching, on the other hand, requires a major addition from the outside. I would trade for a pitcher. Don't see that person in the high minors right now.

Youth movement on offense. Veteran for the staff. IMO.

You want to trade or DFA Edgar, Gomes, Lewis, Cairo and one of Hanigan or Hernandez. That's a little much.

Unassisted
06-06-2011, 03:27 PM
This has become the "get rid of the veterans" movement.I prefer to think of it as a "just give us the September call-ups now" tantrum.

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 03:27 PM
What is the point of keeping him around? Trade or DFA him. He's been horrible on the field and with the bat. He's old. He's done.

DFA Edgar and Gomes.

This. It's June, still time to see if internal options work before looking to the trade market.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:29 PM
You want to trade or DFA Edgar, Gomes, Lewis, Cairo and one of Hanigan or Hernandez. That's a little much.

You're right. Reds will never do this.

But over a few months, I'd do it. I believe in the talent at AAA.

Brutus
06-06-2011, 03:29 PM
I guess Juan Francisco retired from baseball. I didn't see his name in this thread. (He is only hitting .330 at AAA.)

Roberto Petagine, Joe Dillon, Chris Shelton, Phil Hiatta, Kevin Maas, Bryan LaHair, Jeff Baisley and my personal favorite, Ivan Cruz, are some of the many names screaming out to say hello as career 4-A players.

In any event, shouldn't it be Jeremy Hermida--who is hitting .353 in AAA--that gets the call?

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Roberto Petagine, Joe Dillon, Chris Shelton, Phil Hiatta, Kevin Maas, Bryan LaHair, Jeff Baisley and my personal favorite, Ivan Cruz, are some of the many names screaming out to say hello as career 4-A players.

In any event, shouldn't it be Jeremy Hermida--who is hitting .353 in AAA--that gets the call?

We can debate Francisco for the 15th time.

IMO, he deserves to be in the major leagues.

Bryan LaHair?

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:31 PM
This. It's June, still time to see if internal options work before looking to the trade market.

Weren't similar things said last year around this time regarding Cabrera, how old and washed up he was, and that Janish obviously needed to play full-time since he was so much better?

That would have been an interesting summer.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:33 PM
You're right. Reds will never do this.

But over a few months, I'd do it. I believe in the talent at AAA.

No team would ever do that. I may be able to get behind this, on a rolling production, and go from there.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:33 PM
No team would ever do that. I may be able to get behind this, on a rolling production, and go from there.

Rolling callups is fine with me.

Brutus
06-06-2011, 03:34 PM
We can debate Francisco for the 15th time.

IMO, he deserves to be in the major leagues.

Bryan LaHair?

If you don't want to debate Francisco, why did you bring it up?

And yes, LaHair is on pace for his third consecutive 25+ HR, .900 OPS season in AAA. He's the prototype AAAA-player.

Kc61
06-06-2011, 03:35 PM
If you don't want to debate Francisco, why did you bring it up?

And yes, LaHair is on pace for his third consecutive 25+ HR, .900 OPS season in AAA. He's the prototype AAAA-player.

Cause the Reds should bring up talented young players from AAA. And he is one of them.

Brutus
06-06-2011, 03:36 PM
Cause the Reds should bring up talented young players from AAA. And he is one of them.

They've tried that. Three times, in fact. And he's shown it hasn't worked thus far.

What he needs is to stay in AAA longer and try to develop the skills that will allow him to be a productive major league bat. Right now, he doesn't have them and won't likely contribute consistently. He most certainly wouldn't be an upgrade over Jonny Gomes.

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Weren't similar things said last year around this time regarding Cabrera, how old and washed up he was, and that Janish obviously needed to play full-time since he was so much better?

That would have been an interesting summer.

Perhaps, but not by me.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 03:41 PM
What is the point of keeping him around? Trade or DFA him. He's been horrible on the field and with the bat. He's old. He's done.

DFA Edgar and Gomes.

I don't disagree. Just wondering what the corresponding moves would be for some.

As for Gomes...no, I don't DFA him. I leave him as a bench bat. He may get it together. I send Lewis packing. I just don't see what he brings to the table.

But regardless, the bottom line is that neither Cozart, Alonso, Frazier, Francisco, etc will really help us solve our current problem. Pitching. Well, I guess they COULD help our current problem if they were used as trading chips. But I don't see that happening either. I fully expect us to tread water until everyone gets healthy. If anybody comes up, it'll be Cozart to replace a possibly DL'd Renteria. Other than that...I don't foresee any moves.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:43 PM
Perhaps, but not by me.

The logic still holds true, however. If the team's assessment is that he is shot then so be it. But a lot can happen between now and September.

Hoosier Red
06-06-2011, 03:43 PM
While I agree that pitching is the more glaring problem, it's much easier (again, almost no-brainer) to try to improve the offense from within.

Some actual numbers:

Last 31 games, runs scored avg:4.64
Last 31 games, runs allowed avg: 4.70

It is NOT in fact a waste of time to talk about improving the offense that so many on here seem to think.

If the defense isn't compromised, why not try to score a few more runs, when there seemingly are some AAA bats to try?

Part of the last 31 games has been the Reds running into some really good pitchers.
Over the course of the last two weeks, I counted 9 pitchers who I would consider to be an Ace on the Reds; Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Hansen, Jurrjens, Marcum, Greinke, Kershaw, and Billingsley.
* Check out my attached chart.


Vs. Reds Vs Others Average Start
ACE IP H Runs GS IP H Runs IP H R
Halladay 7.00 11 3 12 91.00 80 26 7.6 6.7 2.2
Lee 8.00 5 4 11 72.00 72 32 6.5 6.5 2.9
Hamels 6.00 5 3 11 76.67 57 23 7.0 5.2 2.1
Hansen 4.67 4 3 11 65.66 47 22 6.0 4.3 2.0
Jurrjens 8.00 6 1 9 64.0 56 15 7.1 6.2 1.7
Marcum* 7.00 5 2 10 66.00 53 20 6.6 5.3 2.0
Greinke 6.00 6 2 5 28.00 29 19 5.6 5.8 3.8
Kershaw 6.67 6 6 12 79.0 63 23 6.6 5.3 1.9
Billingsley 5.00 8 4 12 75.3 67 31 6.3 5.6 2.6


Aces Average vs Reds 6.48 6.22 3.11
Aces Avg vs Others 6.58 5.69 2.39

* Shawn Marcum has made two starts against Reds this season, only counted the most recent one for the Reds stats,
but did not count the first start in assessing Marcum's stats versus other teams.

Only 3 of those guys didn't give up more runs to the Reds in this run, then they do when facing other opponents. The Reds scored 6 on Kershaw, 4 on Billingsley, 4 on Lee. They chased Tommy Hansen out after 4 2/3 and even though they couldn't score often, they ran Greinke's pitch count up so he had to leave after 6.

The offense has it's holes, but it's still producing pretty well.

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 03:45 PM
I don't disagree. Just wondering what the corresponding moves would be for some.

As for Gomes...no, I don't DFA him. I leave him as a bench bat. He may get it together. I send Lewis packing. I just don't see what he brings to the table.

Eventually this team is going to have to determine what Chris Heisey can do. If he's the 4th OF, then so be it, but he at least needs to see a steady diet of ABs before making that decision. That won't happen with Gomes hanging around.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:47 PM
Eventually this team is going to have to determine what Chris Heisey can do. If he's the 4th OF, then so be it, but he at least needs to see a steady diet of ABs before making that decision. That won't happen with Gomes hanging around.

Gomes isn't taking time away from anyone right now. Heisey needs to do something as a starter. Right now, this team can't afford to give him steady ABs as a starter.

Kind of sucks for him, however he's had plenty of starts and hasn't done much with them.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Eventually this team is going to have to determine what Chris Heisey can do. If he's the 4th OF, then so be it, but he at least needs to see a steady diet of ABs before making that decision. That won't happen with Gomes hanging around.

I agree with regards to Heisey. I'd like to see a good solid 2 weeks in a row with him. He's had some spot starts (and looked pretty average in them), but nothing regular. Some guys need regular playing time.

But Gomes isn't eating into anybody's playing time right now. And take it FWIW, but he does provide some potent pop with the bat if used correctly.

I(heart)Freel
06-06-2011, 03:53 PM
Gomes isn't taking time away from anyone right now. Heisey needs to do something as a starter. Right now, this team can't afford to give him steady ABs as a starter.

Kind of sucks for him, however he's had plenty of starts and hasn't done much with them.

Thom said Heisey has had something like 16 starts this year. In 60 games.

Plenty?

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 03:54 PM
Thom said Heisey has had something like 16 starts this year. In 60 games.

Plenty?

He had some consistent time down the stretch last year and flopped then also. The vast majority of his success has been as a PH or sub. The splits are very strange.

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Gomes isn't taking time away from anyone right now. Heisey needs to do something as a starter. Right now, this team can't afford to give him steady ABs as a starter.

Kind of sucks for him, however he's had plenty of starts and hasn't done much with them.

I disagree. Gomes has had 3 starts on this homestand alone.

Tell me why Heisey (284/.349/.442) can't get steady ABs as the RH option in a platoon?

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 04:03 PM
They get LeCure back? :rockband: He's REALLY going to make hitters look brilliant!

Homer and Chapman are anyone's guess, and why wait 2 or more weeks to begin improvements? Can this team afford another 2+ week-long losing streak?

2 things. I don't get the sarcasm concerning LeCure...he's been VERY good this year. One of the few reliable arms.

And do you seriously think that adding a Cozart or Alonso/Frazier is what will make the difference between us having a 2+ week losing streak or not having one? I don't think either will make much of a difference at all. Heck, if they come up, it'll be as bench warmers, occasional spot starters or pinch hitters. Frazier & Alonso have gotten their feet wet a bit and Cozart hasn't sniffed the bigs. I'd be surprised if any of the 3 made a difference in such a short time span.

Sometimes it seems to me that people here (not pointing at you...just in general) want a change made just for the sake of making a change.

Bring in a shortstop to replace a shortstop who's just now starting to swing the bat again?
Bring in a LF'er when we've got a guy who's never gotten a real shot at starting?

I'm not a fan of either move. Cozart to fill in for Renteria if he goes DL...sure. But to replace Janish as a starter...no thanks. Not yet.

I(heart)Freel
06-06-2011, 04:17 PM
2 things. I don't get the sarcasm concerning LeCure...he's been VERY good this year. One of the few reliable arms.

And do you seriously think that adding a Cozart or Alonso/Frazier is what will make the difference between us having a 2+ week losing streak or not having one? I don't think either will make much of a difference at all. Heck, if they come up, it'll be as bench warmers, occasional spot starters or pinch hitters. Frazier & Alonso have gotten their feet wet a bit and Cozart hasn't sniffed the bigs. I'd be surprised if any of the 3 made a difference in such a short time span.

Sometimes it seems to me that people here (not pointing at you...just in general) want a change made just for the sake of making a change.

Bring in a shortstop to replace a shortstop who's just now starting to swing the bat again?
Bring in a LF'er when we've got a guy who's never gotten a real shot at starting?

I'm not a fan of either move. Cozart to fill in for Renteria if he goes DL...sure. But to replace Janish as a starter...no thanks. Not yet.

I guess you could say Janish is starting to swing the bat again.

Janish last 14 days: 9 for 40 (.225)
Janish last 7 days: 6 for 18 (.333)

All hits were singles.

Not saying Cozart is going to be a world-beater, but at least he has a chance to slug a little bit.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 04:22 PM
I guess you could say Janish is starting to swing the bat again.

Janish last 14 days: 9 for 40 (.225)
Janish last 7 days: 6 for 18 (.333)

All hits were singles.

Not saying Cozart is going to be a world-beater, but at least he has a chance to slug a little bit.

Last 7 days it's 8 for 21 (.380). Just saying. And I also was talking about how he's swinging. His outs have been stung lately too.

As for Cozart...people are assuming he'll hit like he did in AAA. I think that's quite a leap. His defense, while good, is considerably less than Janish's. I'm all for bringing Zach up to replace Renteria if they DL him...but he needs to prove he can hit in the bigs before I supplant Janish.

757690
06-06-2011, 04:29 PM
First, i woild never start my argument by using "Fay back a me up on this." lol

Second, the number one priority an organization should have concerning when to call up their prospects should be the prospects long term development.

Of course we all want ro win at the major league level, but the best way to ensure that is to properly develop all of your prospects.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-06-2011, 04:31 PM
I agree with regards to Heisey. I'd like to see a good solid 2 weeks in a row with him. He's had some spot starts (and looked pretty average in them), but nothing regular. Some guys need regular playing time.

But Gomes isn't eating into anybody's playing time right now. And take it FWIW, but he does provide some potent pop with the bat if used correctly.

Gomes and his pathetic production are back in the lineup again tonight vs. Matt Garza.

Sad and frustrating how nothing ever seems to change around here.

But hey, according to Twitter: Reds recall RHP Daryl Thompson and option RHP Chad Reineke.

Woohoo! That'll turn things around.

Ghosts of 1990
06-06-2011, 04:43 PM
Here's a name to keep in mind who I think will be traded sooner rather than later: Carlos Zambrano.

Say what you want, and yes he is a mess sometimes... but he eats innings and has shutdown stuff every now and then.

IslandRed
06-06-2011, 04:51 PM
I disagree. Gomes has had 3 starts on this homestand alone.

Tell me why Heisey (284/.349/.442) can't get steady ABs as the RH option in a platoon?

Truth be told, being the lefty-masher in a strict platoon is the one role Gomes is genuinely good at.

It's all the other at-bats where I'd rather have Heisey up there.

I(heart)Freel
06-06-2011, 04:55 PM
Last 7 days it's 8 for 21 (.380). Just saying. And I also was talking about how he's swinging. His outs have been stung lately too.

As for Cozart...people are assuming he'll hit like he did in AAA. I think that's quite a leap. His defense, while good, is considerably less than Janish's. I'm all for bringing Zach up to replace Renteria if they DL him...but he needs to prove he can hit in the bigs before I supplant Janish.

Fair enough on the stats. CBS Sportsline gave me bad intel in my 7- and 14-day reports.

But, not to nitpick, Cozart has to prove he can hit in the majors before he takes Janish's job? How exactly do you do that, without letting the kid play for a stretch?

Still, I like Janish's glove. If you say Cozart's is "considerably less" then maybe he's not the answer right now. Focus can go back to improving left field, offensively AND defensively.

edabbs44
06-06-2011, 04:58 PM
Gomes and his pathetic production are back in the lineup again tonight vs. Matt Garza.

Sad and frustrating how nothing ever seems to change around here.

But hey, according to Twitter: Reds recall RHP Daryl Thompson and option RHP Chad Reineke.

Woohoo! That'll turn things around.

He has started 3 of the last 14 games. That pace would give him about 35 starts over the course of one season.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 04:59 PM
Here's a name to keep in mind who I think will be traded sooner rather than later: Carlos Zambrano.

Say what you want, and yes he is a mess sometimes... but he eats innings and has shutdown stuff every now and then.

He destroys team chemistry and makes $20MM a year. But other than that, sure I'll take him.

I've said it before- Guthrie, Danks, and Billingsley are the Reds best bets for pitching help outside the organization. Despite the above sarcasm, I'd even consider taking a flyer on Zambrano if the Cubs paid his entire salary just to get him out of the Windy City- something they'd likely not do and are even less likely to do for a division rival.

And as far as Alonso/Frazier and Cozart go, people still don't seem to get it:

Promote them, start them, and see how they perform over the next month. Don't tell me anything about interrupting their development, as they are all at least 24 years old and have been mashing in AAA for an extended period of time.

If they aren't much better than the status quo, you MAKE A TRADE to bring in a significant upgrade, whether that is Jose Reyes, Rafael Furcal, Carlos Beltran, Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, etc.

If they are considerably better than the status quo, you keep them and don't have to sell the farm to get a veteran outside of the organization.

Either way, you are improving the team significantly, and are testing out all options before you make a major, irreversible commitment.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 05:17 PM
Fair enough on the stats. CBS Sportsline gave me bad intel in my 7- and 14-day reports.

But, not to nitpick, Cozart has to prove he can hit in the majors before he takes Janish's job? How exactly do you do that, without letting the kid play for a stretch?

You let him get an occasional spot start and some PH'ing duties. If we're out of it late in the season (or better yet, wrap it up early) then he can get a few more starts. But I think next year is more realistic for Zach. After being pushed out of the starting job 2 years in a row, I think Janish deserves this season.

And if you're going to give Cozart a shot to play a bit...right when Janish is getting going is not the proper time.


Still, I like Janish's glove. If you say Cozart's is "considerably less" then maybe he's not the answer right now. Focus can go back to improving left field, offensively AND defensively.

Just so you know, I'm not saying Cozart's glove is bad. Not at all. Just not gold glove-ish.

westofyou
06-06-2011, 05:25 PM
The worst
Player +/-
Alcides Escobar +14
Elvis Andrus +10
Alex Gonzalez +10
Ronny Cedeno +9
Troy Tulowitzki +9
Clint Barmes +7
Alexei Ramirez +7
Andy LaRoche +6
Cesar Izturis +6
Ramon Santiago +5
Elliot Johnson +5
Paul Janish +5
Reid Brignac +5

Only team with a worst OPS at SS is the Royals, and they are the ones with the actual GG at the position

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Fay is on fire today. First the article that started this thread and now this...

via twitter: Votto hitting .381 with 2 homers, 7 RBI in 6 games with "Paint It Black" as walk-up music. I suggest whole lineup goes w/ Stones.

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 05:27 PM
The worst
Player +/-
Alcides Escobar +14
Elvis Andrus +10
Alex Gonzalez +10
Ronny Cedeno +9
Troy Tulowitzki +9
Clint Barmes +7
Alexei Ramirez +7
Andy LaRoche +6
Cesar Izturis +6
Ramon Santiago +5
Elliot Johnson +5
Paul Janish +5
Reid Brignac +5Only team with a worst OPS at SS is the Royals, and they are the ones with the actual GG at the position

So you're saying he has no place to go but up? ;)

Actually, that's not the most surprising thing in that table. Check out Ronny Cedeno & Tulo. LOL. I guess that shows you how much stock I put in that table. I'm not saying it's wrong...just misleading.

~edit~ Okay, I've been looking around at the mlb stats for SS, and for the life of me I can't figure out what that table is supposed to represent? +5 what? +10 what?

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 06:09 PM
Here's a name to keep in mind who I think will be traded sooner rather than later: Carlos Zambrano.

Say what you want, and yes he is a mess sometimes... but he eats innings and has shutdown stuff every now and then.

19 million reasons why that ain't happenin

OldXOhio
06-06-2011, 06:10 PM
He has started 3 of the last 14 games. That pace would give him about 35 starts over the course of one season.

And he's starting again tonight. JG's recent 4 hit effort appears to have bought him some new life.

757690
06-06-2011, 06:22 PM
The worst
Player +/-
Alcides Escobar +14
Elvis Andrus +10
Alex Gonzalez +10
Ronny Cedeno +9
Troy Tulowitzki +9
Clint Barmes +7
Alexei Ramirez +7
Andy LaRoche +6
Cesar Izturis +6
Ramon Santiago +5
Elliot Johnson +5
Paul Janish +5
Reid Brignac +5

Only team with a worst OPS at SS is the Royals, and they are the ones with the actual GG at the position

What are these numbers and what is this list?

We are not mind readers. lol

Thanks

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 08:26 PM
What are these numbers and what is this list?

We are not mind readers. lol

Thanks

I don't know, but whatever it is it's got Ronny Cedeno as being equal to Troy Tulowitzki. So whatever it is...I'm not sure it holds much water. :O)

reds44
06-06-2011, 08:34 PM
Great ideas.

Here's another one. You won a 2-1 game on Friday, then lost Saturday and Sunday despite scoring 14 runs. And the focus of the article is adding bats?

Yep......more offense would have gotten them over the hump.


It's 2011, not 2004.

Pitching and defense were sexy last year....now we're back to building the 1927 Yankees lineup as the only way to success. I went through 10 years of that black hole, no thanks.
If you're not giving up anything and you think you have better options, wouldn't you want to, you know, play the better options?

VR
06-06-2011, 08:40 PM
If you're not giving up anything and you think you have better options, wouldn't you want to, you know, play the better options?

Of course.

The list is long of AAA players that have torn it up in the minors, only to be reduced to fodder when facing major league pitching and scouting. To assume improved performance is a pretty big mistake at this point. Long term development? Absolutely. Rushing players to the bigs ahead of schedule? Not something I want to see.

As smart as I am, I still trust the coaches, managers, and scouts that see our players day in and day out to know if they are ready for the bigs.

Reality remains, get healthy pitchers........or fight over winning 79 games vs. 76.

The Voice of IH
06-06-2011, 08:43 PM
Well, I say there are two ways we can get this thing fixed. Do some of the thing Fay suggests, or play the Cubs three times ;)

*BaseClogger*
06-06-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't know, but whatever it is it's got Ronny Cedeno as being equal to Troy Tulowitzki. So whatever it is...I'm not sure it holds much water. :O)

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with defense since he said something about having a "true gold glover"...

reds44
06-06-2011, 08:57 PM
Of course.

The list is long of AAA players that have torn it up in the minors, only to be reduced to fodder when facing major league pitching and scouting. To assume improved performance is a pretty big mistake at this point. Long term development? Absolutely. Rushing players to the bigs ahead of schedule? Not something I want to see.

As smart as I am, I still trust the coaches, managers, and scouts that see our players day in and day out to know if they are ready for the bigs.

Reality remains, get healthy pitchers........or fight over winning 79 games vs. 76.
It's damn near impossible to be worse than the Reds SS's this year.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Of course.

The list is long of AAA players that have torn it up in the minors, only to be reduced to fodder when facing major league pitching and scouting. To assume improved performance is a pretty big mistake at this point. Long term development? Absolutely. Rushing players to the bigs ahead of schedule? Not something I want to see.

As smart as I am, I still trust the coaches, managers, and scouts that see our players day in and day out to know if they are ready for the bigs.

Reality remains, get healthy pitchers........or fight over winning 79 games vs. 76.

I don't think there is a person on the planet (other than you VR) that would say that Frazier, Alonso, or Cozart is being "rushed" if they were promoted right now.

757690
06-06-2011, 09:04 PM
I don't think there is a person on the planet (other than you VR) that would say that Frazier, Alonso, or Cozart is being "rushed" if they were promoted right now.

I'll say that we don't know about that. Only people who see these guys play everyday know when they are ready to go to the bigs.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 09:14 PM
I'll say that we don't know about that. Only people who see these guys play everyday know when they are ready to go to the bigs.

Frazier and Cozart each have over 2000 minor league ABs and 800 ABs in AAA.
Alonso has over 1000 minor league ABs and over 600 in AAA.

I don't care what you say, they have not been rushed. Does anyone care to argue otherwise?

VR
06-06-2011, 09:19 PM
Frazier and Cozart each have over 2000 minor league ABs and 800 ABs in AAA.
Alonso has over 1000 minor league ABs and over 600 in AAA.

I don't care what you say, they have not been rushed. Does anyone care to argue otherwise?

Zack Cozart is 25 and OpSing .746 for his minor league career. The question may not be about being rushed.......but about ever being a major leaguer.


Todd Frazier is 25 and still hasn't found a home in the field in the minors.


I love these guys and hope they do well. But pretending they are 21 year old wunderkids is not something I'm buying into for these guys. They are not on some Walt Jocketty black list, or victims of Dusty Baker's veteran love.

westofyou
06-06-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm pretty sure it has something to do with defense since he said something about having a "true gold glover"...

College man eh?

It is Dewan's Plus/Minus, but evidently it's a POS, Sir Charles said so.

Benihana
06-06-2011, 09:34 PM
Zack Cozart is 25 and OpSing .746 for his minor league career. The question may not be about being rushed.......but about ever being a major leaguer.

That is higher than Paul Janish minor league career OPS. He also stole 30 bases last year, and his OPS is over 830 this year. Do you want to bet that he'll ever be a major leaguer?

757690
06-06-2011, 09:37 PM
Frazier and Cozart each have over 2000 minor league ABs and 800 ABs in AAA.
Alonso has over 1000 minor league ABs and over 600 in AAA.

I don't care what you say, they have not been rushed. Does anyone care to argue otherwise?

They may not have been rushed up to now, but the question was will they be rushed if brought up now.

The number of games, AB's or innings is meaningless. They are ready when they are ready, and not before. The only way to know that is to watch them play everyday for awhile.

VR
06-06-2011, 09:40 PM
That is higher than Paul Janish minor league career OPS. He also stole 30 bases last year, and his OPS is over 830 this year. Do you want to bet that he'll ever be a major leaguer?

Not at all. But we're asking him to come up and provide better combined offense and defense that Paul Janish currently is. That unfortunately, is not a guarantee.

The absolute plus defense that Janish provides is something I want in place when the pitching gets healthy. I've seen 10 years of reaching for a little more offense to overcome the pitching, exasperated by crappy defense.

reds44
06-06-2011, 09:41 PM
Not at all. But we're asking him to come up and provide better combined offense and defense that Paul Janish currently is. That unfortunately, is not a guarantee.

The absolute plus defense that Janish provides is something I want in place when the pitching gets healthy. I've seen 10 years of reaching for a little more offense to overcome the pitching, exasperated by crappy defense.
People always over look this, but the Reds are one of the best defensive teams in the majors. They were last year too.

VR
06-06-2011, 09:43 PM
People always over look this, but the Reds are one of the best defensive teams in the majors. They were last year too.

Right. But if you can make small improvements, don't you want to do that?

They also have one of the best offenses in the majors. They were last year too.

reds44
06-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Right. But if you can make small improvements, don't you want to do that?

They also have one of the best offenses in the majors. They were last year too.
Couldn't you say they can sacrifice some defense at SS for some offense because their team defense is so good?

And yes, you could say it the other way around too.

All I am saying is it goes both ways.

VR
06-06-2011, 09:49 PM
Couldn't you say they can sacrifice some defense at SS for some offense because their team defense is so good?

And yes, you could say it the other way around too.

All I am saying is it goes both ways.

Thanks

TOBTTReds
06-06-2011, 09:53 PM
Saw Cozart last night. Made some very impressive plays with the glove (also had 2 doubles). I've never been completely sold on him til this year. Not saying he'll be a star or anything. But I'll certainly take him every day right now.

TOBTTReds
06-06-2011, 09:55 PM
I know this isn't the MiL forum, but on topic still, Cozart (and Mes) has a HR tonight. He had 3 hits in the first game of their DH.

reds44
06-06-2011, 10:02 PM
Thanks
You're welcome

_Sir_Charles_
06-06-2011, 11:22 PM
College man eh?

It is Dewan's Plus/Minus, but evidently it's a POS, Sir Charles said so.

LOL. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that whatever it was, it's saying that Tulo and Cedeno are equivalent.

I thought it had something to do with OPS since that's what you'd mentioned. But regardless, I'm not sure what it proves when it's ranking guys who are miles apart as players with the same number. I'm sure it's got it's uses...I'm just not seeing them from that specific chart.

~edit~ I just looked up Dewan's Plus/Minus and it's apparently a defensive stat. And my original opinion somewhat remains. To rank Janish below all those guys...some of whom are considerably worse fielders than Paul...isn't accurate IMO. But I use my eyes, so who knows.

IslandRed
06-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Reading this thread, I'm trying to figure out when Cozart stopped being a good glove guy. That's been his rep ever since the draft. Not once do I remember any scouts or evaluations doubting his ability to play a quality shortstop at the major league level. Just some ongoing doubt as to how much he'd hit.

Now, I think Janish is pretty darn good and may be better in absolute terms than Cozart, but I don't see it as a huge difference. I think maybe -- maybe -- we overrate Janish just a teensy bit when it comes to his peer group of MLB regular shortstops. Sure, he's brilliant relative to the other guys we've run out there for the last several years, but MLB starting shortstops tend to be a nifty bunch.

remdog
06-07-2011, 03:50 AM
A lot of people over rate Janish's glove. He's good; not great.

So, if Cozart can field at the same level but bring a better bat, why not put him out there?

I don't think it will happen until next year but I can see Cozart getting a chance to make Janish a 'memory' in '12.

Rem

757690
06-07-2011, 04:10 AM
College man eh?

It is Dewan's Plus/Minus, but evidently it's a POS, Sir Charles said so.

How was anyone expected to know that that was Dewan's Plus/Minus rankings? lol

Anyway, if you go by UZR, Janish is the second best SS in the majors defensively.

Escobar +17.3
Janish +16.3
Al Ramirez +14.5
Tulo 14.0
Andrus 11.4

No one else is in positive double digits.