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View Full Version : Why Don't The Reds Try and Get Jose Reyes??



WillRich
06-07-2011, 12:21 AM
Okay, right now the New York Mets are 7 1/2 games back in the same division as one of the best teams in baseball so its obvious that they dont really have a chance in their division. The Reds are 5 games back in a division that obviously could be won with a little help. Our pitching needs a little help but I would love to see a dominant offense. Jose Reyes is a fantastic leadoff hitter and while he does have some injury problems he would really provide a spark at the leadoff spot.
I like Drew Stubbs but I really feel like if the Reds moved him down in the line-up he could really become great.
He is, as of June 6, hitting
.263/.333/.413, 8 HR's, 25 RBI's, 11 2B's, 1 3B, 17 SB's, 25 BB's, and 78 K's.
Jose Reyes as a leadoff is, as of June 6, hitting
.337/.386/.506, 1 HR, 21 RBI's, 18 2B's, 10 3B's, 19 SB's, 20 BB's, and 21 K's.
So looking at stats obviously Reyes is more of a prototypical leadoff hitter, just imagine having Reyes leading off with Phillips, Votto, and Bruce having the chance to drive him in. Stubbs obviously has more power so having him lower in the line-up could provide a lot of pop.
Now here comes the hard part, how can the Reds get a trade for this guy?
There are many things to look at when approaching this trade, obviously the prospects we would have to give up, Reyes and an extension, and maybe even taking Beltran off their hands? Whatever happens this is definantly something to think about.

A possible trade I thought of:

Mets acquire: Yonder Alonso, Jonny Gomes/Fred Lewis, Paul Janish, Mike Leake/Travis Wood

Reds acquire: Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, PTBN

Imagine this line-up:
SS: Jose Reyes
2B:Brandon Phillips
1B: Joey Votto
RF: Jay Bruce
3B: Scott Rolen
CF: Drew Stubbs
LF: Carlos Beltran
C: Ramon Hernandez/Ryan Hanigan
Pitchers Spot

webbbj
06-07-2011, 12:25 AM
why would the mets want fred lewis or johnny gomes?

why is beltran batting 7th, rolen batting 5th and stubbs batting 6th?

Who Dey Time
06-07-2011, 12:27 AM
The only possible way I see Reyes as a Red this summer is if the club truly believes that Cozart and/or Frazier will be ready to assume the SS role in 2012. Reyes will not sign a long term deal in Cincinnati.....too much money to be had elsewhere.

Therefore, IMO, you give up too much too get what amounts to be a 2-3 month rental at SS.

mr. red
06-07-2011, 12:28 AM
It would take Alonso, Frazier, Wood/Leake, Janish and probably Heisey at minimum to get that done... I could see NY asking for a catcher as well...and not Hernandez or Hanigan.

Although I would love it if the Reds could swing a deal for Reyes and Beltran...but an expiring Reyes is not an attractive asset to the Reds management.

redsfan1995
06-07-2011, 12:30 AM
The Reds know they won't be able to afford him so they don't want to trade their best prospects for a rental. But I would take the chance and see if he is willing to take less to stay in Cincinnati. Which he probably won't because he thinks he will het Crawford money.

WillRich
06-07-2011, 12:55 AM
why would the mets want fred lewis or johnny gomes?

why is beltran batting 7th, rolen batting 5th and stubbs batting 6th?

Well they would still want to be competitive and Jonny Gomes is an inexpensive conract that can help a ball club. And I just threw together something I was having trouble with that part of the order

webbbj
06-07-2011, 01:02 AM
Well they would still want to be competitive and Jonny Gomes is an inexpensive conract that can Hurt a ball club. And I just threw together something I was having trouble with that part of the order

fyp

Austin_Rich19
06-07-2011, 01:48 AM
I like Reyes

WillRich
06-07-2011, 01:59 AM
fyp

Ahh so you're quote me then change it?? BTW Jonny Gomes I'm pretty sure he lead us to a victory tonight...yepp hes KILLING us

BAKER12
06-07-2011, 02:12 AM
Mets have Tejada, Janish would not play for them
Why would the Mets want Fred Lewis?
We would have to trade 2 of our young starters to get it done
I am not opposed to it, winning now is what is fun

brm7675
06-07-2011, 12:42 PM
A possible trade I thought of:

Mets acquire: Yonder Alonso, Jonny Gomes/Fred Lewis, Paul Janish, Mike Leake/Travis Wood

Reds acquire: Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, PTBN

Pitchers Spot

Last time I checked the Mets GM isn't an idiot. Why in god's green earth would he do that deal? Also why in Gods' green earth would we part with two good young pitchers for 2 couple of month's rentals? No chance I would deal leake/Wood and no chance the Mets would take Gomes and Lewis.

DocRed
06-07-2011, 01:17 PM
$$$

bshall2105
06-07-2011, 02:00 PM
If the Mets franchise is folding they might make this deal.

Girevik
06-07-2011, 02:05 PM
Last time I checked the Mets GM isn't an idiot. Why in god's green earth would he do that deal? Also why in Gods' green earth would we part with two good young pitchers for 2 couple of month's rentals? No chance I would deal leake/Wood and no chance the Mets would take Gomes and Lewis.

I think "Leake/Wood" means Leake OR Wood, not Leake AND Wood.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 04:36 PM
I think "Leake/Wood" means Leake OR Wood, not Leake AND Wood.

And I don't give up both or either, you don't give away good young pitching for a rental...

bshall2105
06-07-2011, 04:43 PM
And I don't give up both or either, you don't give away good young pitching for a rental...

If Beltran is involved I could see getting rid of Leake or Wood but not for a half year of Reyes.

Vottomatic
06-07-2011, 05:04 PM
I'm less interested in Reyes or Beltran than I was before. Both are too expensive, and it appears the Mets want the world for them.

I really think they won't get much for either one since they're both FA's at the end of the year and would be rentals for any team that traded for them.

The Mets are dreaming. They might as well stay asleep and keep dreaming, because it ain't happening.

brm7675
06-07-2011, 06:03 PM
If Beltran is involved I could see getting rid of Leake or Wood but not for a half year of Reyes.

No way the Reds take on the payroll of Beltran, and even with him involved I don't deal Leake or Wood. I will give them EV or even Bailey, but not Wood or Leake.

WillRich
06-07-2011, 09:24 PM
No way the Reds take on the payroll of Beltran, and even with him involved I don't deal Leake or Wood. I will give them EV or even Bailey, but not Wood or Leake.

Why would you give them Bailey? When hes been healthy, he's been our second best pitcher. Leake has a 4.63 ERA so far and Wood has a 5.72 ERA. Bailey hasn't been there all year but he has done very well when he's been healthy. As for Volquez, he's not that far gone from a 17 Win year, that talent is in there somewhere, he just needs to recover from Tommy John surgery

WillRich
06-07-2011, 09:27 PM
Last time I checked the Mets GM isn't an idiot. Why in god's green earth would he do that deal? Also why in Gods' green earth would we part with two good young pitchers for 2 couple of month's rentals? No chance I would deal leake/Wood and no chance the Mets would take Gomes and Lewis.

If you don't know how to read the trade don't try and criticize it. I never said give up two pitchers I said either Wood or Leake. BTW its either Gomes or Lewis

Vottomatic
06-07-2011, 09:58 PM
Reds could probably get Fukodome cheap from the Cubs (looking to unload payroll). Problem is, he's making $14.5M this season and a free agent next season. But his .310 average and .420 OBP would look good near the top of the batting order.

Phillips 2B
Fukodome LF
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF

bshall2105
06-08-2011, 06:54 PM
No way the Reds take on the payroll of Beltran, and even with him involved I don't deal Leake or Wood. I will give them EV or even Bailey, but not Wood or Leake.

So you don't like high upside pitchers you just want a team full of 3/4 guys? If Wood or Leake was the center piece of a deal that gets us Beltran then I'm fine with it.
This is only if Beltran's contract expires after this season. If he has another year at that rate then no way.

brm7675
06-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Why would you give them Bailey? When hes been healthy, he's been our second best pitcher. Leake has a 4.63 ERA so far and Wood has a 5.72 ERA. Bailey hasn't been there all year but he has done very well when he's been healthy. As for Volquez, he's not that far gone from a 17 Win year, that talent is in there somewhere, he just needs to recover from Tommy John surgery

I part with Bailey for 1 simple reason...Health, he can't stay healthy. As for EV again he has the talent, but I just don't see him being a long term pitcher in this league. I see much more of a long term productive careers out of both Leake and Wood then I do Homer and EV, so I would offer either Homer or EV before I would Leake or Wood.

brm7675
06-08-2011, 07:00 PM
So you don't like high upside pitchers you just want a team full of 3/4 guys? If Wood or Leake was the center piece of a deal that gets us Beltran then I'm fine with it.
This is only if Beltran's contract expires after this season. If he has another year at that rate then no way.

I like pitchers who stay healthy, eat innings and keep my high powered offense in the game. Neither Homer nor EV have shown me anything but injuries and problems with throwing consistant strikes. I see both Leake and Wood as dependable pitchers who can play for many years and produce on a high level for all those years.

bshall2105
06-08-2011, 07:35 PM
I like pitchers who stay healthy, eat innings and keep my high powered offense in the game. Neither Homer nor EV have shown me anything but injuries and problems with throwing consistant strikes. I see both Leake and Wood as dependable pitchers who can play for many years and produce on a high level for all those years.

In the Reds situation you are not going to build a strong rotation by having Leake and Wood as your highest upside pitchers. They may be more dependable right now but long term I see Bailey being a guy that will help the Reds more than either of those two.

brm7675
06-08-2011, 07:50 PM
In the Reds situation you are not going to build a strong rotation by having Leake and Wood as your highest upside pitchers. They may be more dependable right now but long term I see Bailey being a guy that will help the Reds more than either of those two.

If Homer had the ability to stay healthy I would agree, but his body just isn't able to handle the stress put on it when he pitches. Meanwhile both Wood and Leake have the makeup to produce multiple seasons of high innings, quality starts and respectable numbers.

Vottomatic
06-08-2011, 08:18 PM
In the Reds situation you are not going to build a strong rotation by having Leake and Wood as your highest upside pitchers. They may be more dependable right now but long term I see Bailey being a guy that will help the Reds more than either of those two.

Every time I start to come around and believe in Homer Bailey, he gets injured.

I'm not sure the guy will ever fully reach his potential, and may possibly always have something wrong with him. Very frustrating.

jwmann2
06-08-2011, 10:54 PM
Reyes is going to command around 13-15 Million a year for 6 or 7 years. They talked about this last Sunday Night when the Mets played the Braves. No way we can afford that. He would be a great fit for a team like the Dodgers or Rays.

lonewolf371
06-09-2011, 12:22 AM
I like pitchers who stay healthy, eat innings and keep my high powered offense in the game. Neither Homer nor EV have shown me anything but injuries and problems with throwing consistant strikes. I see both Leake and Wood as dependable pitchers who can play for many years and produce on a high level for all those years.
I guess you don't want to win a championship? You don't win championships without top quality pitchers.


Reyes is going to command around 13-15 Million a year for 6 or 7 years. They talked about this last Sunday Night when the Mets played the Braves. No way we can afford that. He would be a great fit for a team like the Dodgers or Rays.
That seems really low. He's basically the same as Carl Crawford offensively and plays a more difficult position. I'd expect more the 7-year $140 million variety.

Girevik
06-09-2011, 09:53 AM
And I don't give up both or either, you don't give away good young pitching for a rental...

Then how do you expect to improve youre team for the stretch drive? If you are a player or two away, you basically have two choices....give up "good young" talent for a rental or fishinsh out of the money. You don't see too many teams looking at this point to trade away a solid player with an extended contract.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily make this deal, but to me Leake and Wood are still just prospects. Neither has proven anything to me yet, and I'll trade prospects for proven guys all day long. Especially if I thinkt he proven guy is what I need to get the team over the hump this year.

It's been over 20 years since this team has been in a world series. I don't want to pass up an opportunity to get there because you MIGHT be trading away a guy that turns out to be really good.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 12:32 PM
Then how do you expect to improve youre team for the stretch drive? If you are a player or two away, you basically have two choices....give up "good young" talent for a rental or fishinsh out of the money. You don't see too many teams looking at this point to trade away a solid player with an extended contract.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily make this deal, but to me Leake and Wood are still just prospects. Neither has proven anything to me yet, and I'll trade prospects for proven guys all day long. Especially if I thinkt he proven guy is what I need to get the team over the hump this year.

It's been over 20 years since this team has been in a world series. I don't want to pass up an opportunity to get there because you MIGHT be trading away a guy that turns out to be really good.

I am not sure what else you need to see from either Leake or Wood to know they are going to be very productive good major league starting pitchers in the mold of a Bronson or Lee or such. It is very difficult to find quality major league pitchers so no I don't give them up easily and not at all for rentals.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 12:33 PM
I guess you don't want to win a championship? You don't win championships without top quality pitchers.


That seems really low. He's basically the same as Carl Crawford offensively and plays a more difficult position. I'd expect more the 7-year $140 million variety.

I guess we view Leake/Wood differently. I can see them in a couple of years being top quality pitchers who can lead this team for a good number of years, I guess you don't.

Vottomatic
06-09-2011, 12:35 PM
I guess you don't want to win a championship? You don't win championships without top quality pitchers.


That seems really low. He's basically the same as Carl Crawford offensively and plays a more difficult position. I'd expect more the 7-year $140 million variety.

Because of his age and lack of durability (at times), I don't think he gets that much. His age is only a factor because he'll want like a very long term contract, and I wouldn't give it to him. I'd go 3 or 4 years at most.

Vottomatic
06-09-2011, 12:37 PM
Actually, I'm not interested in trading Leake or Wood either. Guys like them tend to last longer than the flamethrowers. And they are still young and will come into their own in the next 3 or 4 years, while still being decent until then. Remember the Maddux, Glavine, Smolts days? Those guys were good, but not great, and eventually became great pitchers. Same with Cliff Lee and some other "control" pitchers.

I'd give it some time and be patient with those two.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Actually, I'm not interested in trading Leake or Wood either. Guys like them tend to last longer than the flamethrowers. And they are still young and will come into their own in the next 3 or 4 years, while still being decent until then. Remember the Maddux, Glavine, Smolts days? Those guys were good, but not great, and eventually became great pitchers. Same with Cliff Lee and some other "control" pitchers.

I'd give it some time and be patient with those two.

to me given their perfromances so far in very limited major league expereince, there is so much upside on both of them and the strong chances of durability over say a Homer or EV that to me I "only" deal them if the deal was a steal.

5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 12:49 PM
Honestly...at $13 mil, I think the Reds will make a run at him...but anything over that is not going to happen

brm7675
06-09-2011, 02:34 PM
Honestly...at $13 mil, I think the Reds will make a run at him...but anything over that is not going to happen

I just don't get that vibe from Walt, I really think for whatever reason he and dusty both feel that the present team if fully "healthy" can win this division. I don't agree, but I would just be floored if Walt makes any kind of "major" move and I consider this option a "major" move.

lonewolf371
06-09-2011, 02:59 PM
I guess we view Leake/Wood differently. I can see them in a couple of years being top quality pitchers who can lead this team for a good number of years, I guess you don't.
What evidence is there to support that? They don't have great stuff or Maddux-like control. As a FanGraph's writer once said, "People are in love with young players just because they haven't been around long enough to suck, yet". I'd love to see it happen but they haven't done anything so far to show that.


Because of his age and lack of durability (at times), I don't think he gets that much. His age is only a factor because he'll want like a very long term contract, and I wouldn't give it to him. I'd go 3 or 4 years at most.
Well then you wouldn't sign him because right now GMs are handing players way more years than they deserve. He'd go somewhere else.


I just don't get that vibe from Walt, I really think for whatever reason he and dusty both feel that the present team if fully "healthy" can win this division. I don't agree, but I would just be floored if Walt makes any kind of "major" move and I consider this option a "major" move.
I actually disagree. As others have mentioned there's a ton of blocked talent at AAA that's ready to start playing in the majors. I have a feeling Walt will make a move before the deadline.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 03:06 PM
What evidence is there to support that? They don't have great stuff or Maddux-like control. As a FanGraph's writer once said, "People are in love with young players just because they haven't been around long enough to suck, yet". I'd love to see it happen but they haven't done anything so far to show that.

I watch and see two young pitchers who know how to pitch and get people out. Lets remember they are both in the very very beginnings of their career and already are seeing some pretty good success. They both have hit some bumps in the road, but both have shown me the ability to learn and get better. I also LOVE that they are pitchers and not throwers. They understand how to get batters out. I also love that the odds of long term arm issues are not there like they are with hard throwers.

Well then you wouldn't sign him because right now GMs are handing players way more years than they deserve. He'd go somewhere else.


I actually disagree. As others have mentioned there's a ton of blocked talent at AAA that's ready to start playing in the majors. I have a feeling Walt will make a move before the deadline.

I would hope you are right, but I don't see it in Walt. I don't know if it's a budget issue from above or this view that "hey we won it last year with these guys we can win it again with them" or what. But Dusty refuses to give up on Gomes and Walt refuses to trade away young talent to improve the major league club for some unknown reason.

lonewolf371
06-09-2011, 03:11 PM
I watch and see two young pitchers who know how to pitch and get people out. Lets remember they are both in the very very beginnings of their career and already are seeing some pretty good success. They both have hit some bumps in the road, but both have shown me the ability to learn and get better. I also LOVE that they are pitchers and not throwers. They understand how to get batters out. I also love that the odds of long term arm issues are not there like they are with hard throwers.
Yeah, so you like that they're not Edinson Volquez. Ace pitchers, however, have Volquez stuff and the ability to "get guys out" like Leake and Wood. I like them, too, but I don't see guys with an 89 mph fastball developing into Roy Halladay. There isn't a single top pitcher in the game right now that doesn't have dominating stuff.


I would hope you are right, but I don't see it in Walt. I don't know if it's a budget issue from above or this view that "hey we won it last year with these guys we can win it again with them" or what. But Dusty refuses to give up on Gomes and Walt refuses to trade away young talent to improve the major league club for some unknown reason.
He's waiting for the right trade, the right situation. He may even have multiple things in the works right now and be trying to leverage his position, or get more information about the needs of the major league club. Don't count him out.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 03:23 PM
Yeah, so you like that they're not Edinson Volquez. Ace pitchers, however, have Volquez stuff and the ability to "get guys out" like Leake and Wood. I like them, too, but I don't see guys with an 89 mph fastball developing into Roy Halladay. There isn't a single top pitcher in the game right now that doesn't have dominating stuff.

I like that they know how to pitch. I don't care that they don't make the gun 'pop', I think making the gun 'pop' is overrated. I can think of a number of good pitchers who don't make the gun pop and I believe that along with Cueto we have a very very good 1-3 staff with them and him on the roster. I have 0 faith in either EV or Homer being around long term with this team.


He's waiting for the right trade, the right situation. He may even have multiple things in the works right now and be trying to leverage his position, or get more information about the needs of the major league club. Don't count him out.

I would be interested given his track record since coming to the Reds leads you to believe this? Outside of the Rolen deal, which was much more pushed onto him by the owner, what big moves has he made?

Vottomatic
06-09-2011, 04:40 PM
Well then you wouldn't sign him because right now GMs are handing players way more years than they deserve. He'd go somewhere else.




Just because other GM's are jumping off a cliff, doesn't mean I would. :D

lonewolf371
06-09-2011, 06:56 PM
I like that they know how to pitch. I don't care that they don't make the gun 'pop', I think making the gun 'pop' is overrated. I can think of a number of good pitchers who don't make the gun pop and I believe that along with Cueto we have a very very good 1-3 staff with them and him on the roster. I have 0 faith in either EV or Homer being around long term with this team.
Examples? The only one I have off the top of my head is Maddux. There are some "good" pitchers that can do it without killer stuff, but they're not the top-of-the-line guys you need in the playoffs.


I would be interested given his track record since coming to the Reds leads you to believe this? Outside of the Rolen deal, which was much more pushed onto him by the owner, what big moves has he made?
Well he's not going to make a big deal if it's not a good one. I can't imagine how many good deals might have come available to him over the years.

I actually think the lack of moves is a good thing. Teams like the White Sox, Cubs, and the Mets (and even temporarily before last season the Mariners) that make a whole bunch of deals typically run their farm system into the ground and get a bunch of over-valued major leaguers. The only teams that make a lot of moves that have consistently paid off are the Yankees and the Red Sox, and most of that is because they have more freedom to pick what players they receive.


Just because other GM's are jumping off a cliff, doesn't mean I would. :D
All I'm saying is that Reyes wouldn't be on your team. You'd still have Janish.

brm7675
06-09-2011, 07:10 PM
[QUOTE=lonewolf371;2405779]Examples? The only one I have off the top of my head is Maddux. There are some "good" pitchers that can do it without killer stuff, but they're not the top-of-the-line guys you need in the playoffs.

Cliff Lee isn't a hard thrower, Andy Petite wasn't a hard thrower, I don't remember Oral Hershieser as being a pitcher with in credible pop in his pitches and such. Chris Carpenter seemed to do okay and not be a hard thrower. I think in the role of the 2 and 3 guys that both Leake and Wood will do just great. If Cueto continues to progress he will be your hard thrower. If the Reds had a clue and devloped Chapman right HE can be your hard thrower in the rotation. But I still think both Leake and Wood when it is all said and done will have longer more productive careers over any present Reds pitcher on staff.
QUOTE]

texasdave
06-09-2011, 08:26 PM
What is the standard being set for top-of-the-line pitchers?

brm7675
06-09-2011, 08:32 PM
What is the standard being set for top-of-the-line pitchers?

For me a "top of the line" starter is a rare and hard to find. Out of 30 teams in the ML I would say maybe half have 1. If you look just in our division this season, I would say the Brewers have 1 with Zach and that is about it. The Cards had one in Wainewright but he is gone for a while and Carpenter was at one time but not now. The stros don't have one, the Cubs don't have one, the Pirates don't have one and we don't. In the NL West I don't see one with the Padres or Rockies this season. The Dodgers might have one in Kershaw but I am not sold on him. The Giants have 1 in Tim L. and one on the verge in Cain. In the east the Phils have 2 with Lee and that "other" guy. The Braves don't have one, the Fish kinda do with Josh, but he has health issues that concern me. The Mets don't and the Nationals don't. For me it takes alot to be considered a TOL starter. I think Cueto with some maturing might be, but he is still a season or so away.

lonewolf371
06-09-2011, 09:35 PM
Cliff Lee isn't a hard thrower, Andy Petite wasn't a hard thrower, I don't remember Oral Hershieser as being a pitcher with in credible pop in his pitches and such. Chris Carpenter seemed to do okay and not be a hard thrower. I think in the role of the 2 and 3 guys that both Leake and Wood will do just great. If Cueto continues to progress he will be your hard thrower. If the Reds had a clue and devloped Chapman right HE can be your hard thrower in the rotation. But I still think both Leake and Wood when it is all said and done will have longer more productive careers over any present Reds pitcher on staff.
Cliff Lee throws well over 90, at least since he's been good. Pettite wasn't really elite, I'll get to that later, but otherwise I'll give you him. Carpenter throws well over 90.

I shouldn't have said "killer stuff" earlier, what I really think is that you don't need to be able to throw 94 mph but I do think you should be able to throw at least 90. If you have a fastball over 90 mph and four good pitches you'll be fine, so long as you have great control. That describes what Travis Wood could be, although he's barely in from a velocity standpoint, but not really Mike Leake. Also, neither guy has so far shown the type of control you need to do that.

As for Pettite, you look at his career and it really doesn't look like that of a top pitcher. Yet still, the Yankees won five World Series with him and for some of them he was the best pitcher on the team. I think that means two things: 1) I believe that while Pettite may not look great in the regular season, he was every bit as good as the top guys in the post season and 2) perhaps I overrated how important pitching is in the post season.


For me a "top of the line" starter is a rare and hard to find. Out of 30 teams in the ML I would say maybe half have 1. If you look just in our division this season, I would say the Brewers have 1 with Zach and that is about it. The Cards had one in Wainewright but he is gone for a while and Carpenter was at one time but not now. The stros don't have one, the Cubs don't have one, the Pirates don't have one and we don't. In the NL West I don't see one with the Padres or Rockies this season. The Dodgers might have one in Kershaw but I am not sold on him. The Giants have 1 in Tim L. and one on the verge in Cain. In the east the Phils have 2 with Lee and that "other" guy. The Braves don't have one, the Fish kinda do with Josh, but he has health issues that concern me. The Mets don't and the Nationals don't. For me it takes alot to be considered a TOL starter. I think Cueto with some maturing might be, but he is still a season or so away.
You're ignoring Tommy Hanson for the Braves. I don't know why you wouldn't be sold on Kershaw; he's been a top guy for awhile now.

texasdave
06-09-2011, 09:47 PM
Is Johnny Cueto a top-of-the-line pitcher? Going back to last year in his last 23 starts he has a 2.34 ERA (if you throw out an 8ER 1.1IP outing in late September).

lonewolf371
06-10-2011, 01:22 AM
Is Johnny Cueto a top-of-the-line pitcher? Going back to last year in his last 23 starts he has a 2.34 ERA (if you throw out an 8ER 1.1IP outing in late September).
For some reason he has great stuff but the strikeouts have never come. If he started striking out guys a lot faster (like tonight), he would be one of the best in the game.

You can't really throw out games, though. You don't do it for the other players you compare him to, and everyone has those types of games.

Girevik
06-10-2011, 10:00 AM
I am not sure what else you need to see from either Leake or Wood to know they are going to be very productive good major league starting pitchers in the mold of a Bronson or Lee or such. It is very difficult to find quality major league pitchers so no I don't give them up easily and not at all for rentals.

The smart-aleck answer would be "an ERA under four and a half", but in seriousness from ANY pitcher I want to see at least two consecutive solid seasons to annoint them as anything. Yes I think Leake and Wood could very likely become quality pitchers, but they are not there yet and to me a proven guy is always worth more than potential. Heck, for all the grief Volquez gets here, his ERA is .02 higher than Wood's.

Girevik
06-10-2011, 10:03 AM
For some reason he has great stuff but the strikeouts have never come. If he started striking out guys a lot faster (like tonight), he would be one of the best in the game.

I think strikeouts are overrated. All they do is run up your pitch count. I'd much rather have a ground ball pitcher with comperable numbers.

brm7675
06-10-2011, 12:05 PM
Cliff Lee throws well over 90, at least since he's been good. Pettite wasn't really elite, I'll get to that later, but otherwise I'll give you him. Carpenter throws well over 90.

I shouldn't have said "killer stuff" earlier, what I really think is that you don't need to be able to throw 94 mph but I do think you should be able to throw at least 90. If you have a fastball over 90 mph and four good pitches you'll be fine, so long as you have great control. That describes what Travis Wood could be, although he's barely in from a velocity standpoint, but not really Mike Leake. Also, neither guy has so far shown the type of control you need to do that.

As for Pettite, you look at his career and it really doesn't look like that of a top pitcher. Yet still, the Yankees won five World Series with him and for some of them he was the best pitcher on the team. I think that means two things: 1) I believe that while Pettite may not look great in the regular season, he was every bit as good as the top guys in the post season and 2) perhaps I overrated how important pitching is in the post season.


You're ignoring Tommy Hanson for the Braves. I don't know why you wouldn't be sold on Kershaw; he's been a top guy for awhile now.

Pettite is up there for his playoff performances alone, he is one of the top playoff pitchers of all time. As for Hanson, he has the chance but isn't there yet and the same for Kershaw....close but not quite there yet.

As for Leake and Wood, it is still way to early in their career to know what they can be, but as of right now I like the potential both bring and along with Cueto feel the Reds could have a very dominate 1-2-3 combination in those 3 guys for a number of years to come.

brm7675
06-10-2011, 12:07 PM
I think strikeouts are overrated. All they do is run up your pitch count. I'd much rather have a ground ball pitcher with comperable numbers.

didn't Crash Davis say Strike out's were undemocratic or something along those lines to Nuke in Bull Durham....:)

texasdave
06-10-2011, 12:12 PM
didn't Crash Davis say Strike out's were undemocratic or something along those lines to Nuke in Bull Durham....:)

Baseball is a dictatorship. If he's good enough, the man on the mound makes the rules.

brm7675
06-10-2011, 12:15 PM
Baseball is a dictatorship. If he's good enough, the man on the mound makes the rules.

I don't think there are any pitchers who call their own game are there?

lonewolf371
06-10-2011, 12:46 PM
I think strikeouts are overrated. All they do is run up your pitch count. I'd much rather have a ground ball pitcher with comperable numbers.
Lolwut? Look at the top guys in strikeout rates over the last ten years: Tim Lincecum, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, Curt Schilling. Top strikeout guys and top groundball guys don't have comparable numbers. You'd honestly take Derek Lowe, Fausto Carmona and Jake Westbrook over those guys?


Pettite is up there for his playoff performances alone, he is one of the top playoff pitchers of all time. As for Hanson, he has the chance but isn't there yet and the same for Kershaw....close but not quite there yet.

As for Leake and Wood, it is still way to early in their career to know what they can be, but as of right now I like the potential both bring and along with Cueto feel the Reds could have a very dominate 1-2-3 combination in those 3 guys for a number of years to come.
How are Hanson and Kershaw not there yet? You'll give it to Cliff Lee but not those guys? Cliff Lee's only been dominant one more year than Kershaw and both of those guys have been better than Cliff Lee this season.

Velocity doesn't change over the course of a career, so you know what the limit of their stuff is. Some of us aren't going to drink the Kool-Aid on these guys, though.

brm7675
06-10-2011, 01:19 PM
Lolwut? Look at the top guys in strikeout rates over the last ten years: Tim Lincecum, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, Curt Schilling. Top strikeout guys and top groundball guys don't have comparable numbers. You'd honestly take Derek Lowe, Fausto Carmona and Jake Westbrook over those guys?


How are Hanson and Kershaw not there yet? You'll give it to Cliff Lee but not those guys? Cliff Lee's only been dominant one more year than Kershaw and both of those guys have been better than Cliff Lee this season.

Velocity doesn't change over the course of a career, so you know what the limit of their stuff is. Some of us aren't going to drink the Kool-Aid on these guys, though.

Lee's numbers in the playoffs and I want to see repeated efforts by both Hanson and Kershaw. They are good pitchers just not top level in my opinion at this point.

Girevik
06-10-2011, 03:27 PM
didn't Crash Davis say Strike out's were undemocratic or something along those lines to Nuke in Bull Durham....:)

I think it was "strikeouts are fascist. Throw some ground balls, their more democratic".

lonewolf371
06-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Lee's numbers in the playoffs and I want to see repeated efforts by both Hanson and Kershaw. They are good pitchers just not top level in my opinion at this point.
I can understand that. I don't agree, but I understand.

signalhome
06-11-2011, 02:18 PM
What might Jose Reyes return in a trade? (http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/6/9/2214279/what-might-jose-reyes-return-in-a-trade?ref=fangraphs)

I'd be willing to give up Hamilton, not so willing to give up Mesoraco.