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View Full Version : The Return of Edinson Volquez



The Voice of IH
06-07-2011, 01:14 PM
Well, since my Leake thread is going so well, ;), I thought I throw this one out as well. Is it really that hard to imagine this guy going out and dominating the rest of the season? If it has been said once its been said a million times, if he can get his stuff over the plate, he will be great.

So what do you think? Have you given up on Edinson Volquez, for at least this season, or are you excited to see what this guy can do coming back from Triple A Louisville.

I have to admit, I can see this guy come in a dominate the Cubs and go from there.

edabbs44
06-07-2011, 01:16 PM
I haven't given up but my expectations for EV have always been tempered. I enevr got caught up in all the TOR "stuff" and all that. He can be an asset, hopefully he is for the rest of the season.

VR
06-07-2011, 01:20 PM
Need him to be a solid #3 starter at this point. I'm disappointed every time he's thrown into the limelight as an ace.....I'm lowering expecations for EV with hopes that a rotation of Homer/Cueto/EV/Wood/Leake will carry us through the long summer.

Will M
06-07-2011, 02:32 PM
I have zero faith in Volquez. Zero. I believe that he is only back because Homer went down. I would have liked to see him pitch for 30 days in AAA with a walk rate less than 3 per 9 innings prior to bringing him back. Didn't happen. I think we will see the same Edinson we did prior to his demotion.

bucksfan2
06-07-2011, 02:43 PM
Yuck! I hope for 5IP and < 4ER.

Ghosts of 1990
06-07-2011, 02:44 PM
I don't think he'll be anything more than wildly inconsistent as a Cincinnati Red and I think we've seen the best that's never to return as a Major Leaguer period.

The one positive is that he'll be cheaper and low-risk to bring back next year. But if he continues to be mis-cast as a #1, TOR starter, is that a positive for a team?

I just hope he gets us some wins in the short term. I cringed when he got to start game 1 at Philly in the playoffs and I cringe when he takes the mound in a must-win game now.

Best case, I think he's a shot in the arm until Homer gets back and Arroyo beats mono. Worst case he becomes more a part of why we free-fall and what we look back on and continue to be able to say "what if" about.

cumberlandreds
06-07-2011, 03:01 PM
If he gets through the first inning without giving up a run it will be a major accomplishment. I really don't have much faith that he turned it around in the short amount of time he was in AAA. But I thought the same about Leake and he's been better since coming back to the big leagues. Maybe Volquez will help me eat a little crow on this one too.

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2011, 03:09 PM
I find it hard to believe a pitcher who struggles to throw strikes will emerge from a couple of weeks in "time out" at AAA as an effective pitcher.

remdog
06-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Usually, the last thing that a TJ surgery recipient recovers is his control. Volquez's velocity is fine. He just can't find the plate and that's what's getting him in trouble right now.

I'm not saying that there might not be some 'mind-games' bouncing around in his 'block' but, if he ever harnesses his talent, he'll be TOR. I'd like to see him do it with the Reds.

Rem

REDREAD
06-07-2011, 03:47 PM
At this point, if he can solidify the #5 slot it the rotation, I will be thrilled.
I was expecting a .500 season out of him this year, but I am not sure that is realistic. I didn't want to see him recalled this soon, but I understand he's really the only option (don't want to see Reinike start again).

I guess the Cubs are probably the best team for a guy like him to start over with.. I hope he can give us 5 IP or more.. That might be too much to ask.

Sea Ray
06-07-2011, 03:55 PM
Usually, the last thing that a TJ surgery recipient recovers is his control. Volquez's velocity is fine. He just can't find the plate and that's what's getting him in trouble right now.


Rem

Very true but us fans know that control was an issue before his surgery. I don't know what control there is to "recover".

I agree that if he solidifies the #5 spot in the rotation, that'd be great

Chip R
06-07-2011, 03:58 PM
Very true but us fans know that control was an issue before his surgery. I don't know what control there is to "recover".

I agree that if he solidifies the #5 spot in the rotation, that'd be great

Well, it wasn't as bad as it has been this year.

I am guessing he will have a satisfactory performance this evening against the Cubs - most likely because they are the Cubs. However, what happens if he is back to his ineffectual self in his next start or the start after that? Does he keep going out there, go on the DL or go back to the minors?

traderumor
06-07-2011, 04:49 PM
In the name of "could Volquez do any worse than other starters not named Leake or Cueto," I think it makes sense to bring him back up. The rotation is a mess, prob. do or die for Volquez' career as a Red.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-07-2011, 04:50 PM
I have zero faith that EV will amount to anything more than the train wreck we've witnessed on the mound since he came back from his TJ surgery/suspension. I'll go further and say I absolutely hate watching him pitch - his laziness, his lack of emotion and his ridiculous appearance.

I hate that he pitches for my favorite team.

Homer Bailey
06-07-2011, 04:50 PM
Always a treat.

bucksfan2
06-07-2011, 05:00 PM
I have zero faith that EV will amount to anything more than the train wreck we've witnessed on the mound since he came back from his TJ surgery/suspension. I'll go further and say I absolutely hate watching him pitch - his laziness, his lack of emotion and his ridiculous appearance.

I hate that he pitches for my favorite team.

WOW :eek: I couldn't have said it better myself. You nailed my feelings to a tee.

edabbs44
06-07-2011, 05:03 PM
I have zero faith that EV will amount to anything more than the train wreck we've witnessed on the mound since he came back from his TJ surgery/suspension. I'll go further and say I absolutely hate watching him pitch - his laziness, his lack of emotion and his ridiculous appearance.

I hate that he pitches for my favorite team.

No reason to hold back...

VR
06-07-2011, 05:23 PM
I say have Cowboy do color from behind home plate.

_Sir_Charles_
06-07-2011, 06:11 PM
I want to see one thing out of Volquez. I want to see a 2:1 ratio in strikes thrown to balls thrown. If Volquez throws strikes...everything else will sort itself out. If he does that and gets rocked...I can live with that. Just throw strikes.

37red
06-07-2011, 07:31 PM
I just wrote a long reply but of course I hit the wrong button to post, I'm getting as old as the rest of the 2000 club. I'll rewrite it later if I haven't fallen asleep.

Edabbs44 has it pretty much on the head. In short I hope he proves us all wrong etc etc etc

37red

reds1869
06-07-2011, 07:43 PM
I'll say this: I think he'll mow the Cubs down tonight. So much so that I'm pitching him on one of my fantasy teams tonight. Hey, I'm in 10th place and it's the Cubs so what do I have to lose?

37red
06-07-2011, 07:43 PM
I should have quoted Reds/Flyers fan

Big Klu
06-07-2011, 08:13 PM
I'm assuming that Thompson went back down to Louisville to make room for Volquez?

The Voice of IH
06-07-2011, 09:45 PM
Well, so far so good. But their are three words to remember

IT'S THE CUBS

reds44
06-07-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm assuming that Thompson went back down to Louisville to make room for Volquez?
Your assumption is correct.

Matt700wlw
06-07-2011, 10:09 PM
So, it was the hair the whole time! I'll be darned! :D

Big Klu
06-07-2011, 10:38 PM
So, it was the hair the whole time! I'll be darned! :D

Volquez is the anti-Samson.

traderumor
06-08-2011, 12:25 AM
Nice outing. Keep up the good work.

reds44
06-08-2011, 12:28 AM
I have zero faith that EV will amount to anything more than the train wreck we've witnessed on the mound since he came back from his TJ surgery/suspension. I'll go further and say I absolutely hate watching him pitch - his laziness, his lack of emotion and his ridiculous appearance.

I hate that he pitches for my favorite team.
Ignorant.

westofyou
06-08-2011, 12:32 AM
Volquez is the anti-Samson.

You can shave my head, clean as my hand
And my strength will become as natural as any old man.

11larkin11
06-08-2011, 12:50 AM
I have zero faith that EV will amount to anything more than the train wreck we've witnessed on the mound since he came back from his TJ surgery/suspension. I'll go further and say I absolutely hate watching him pitch - his laziness, his lack of emotion and his ridiculous appearance.

I hate that he pitches for my favorite team.

Is he on your lawn too?

REDREAD
06-08-2011, 01:04 AM
Great game by EV. Really couldn't have asked for better. Let's hope he keeps it up in the next start.
:)

REDblooded
06-08-2011, 01:20 AM
lock him up for a few seasons now... He's about to get hot...

WebScorpion
06-08-2011, 01:22 AM
They tried that, he turned them down. Apparently, he's convinced he'll have his best season ever in 2011. :oops:

HeatherC1212
06-08-2011, 01:35 AM
I was down at the game tonight and while the early innings made me a little nervous, Edinson had a pretty solid game overall and looked much better than he has in the past. It seemed like he was getting stronger as the game went on and if he can build on this start for his next one, he might finally figure out how to start pitching like he's capable of this year.

BTW-Best moment of the game tonight wasn't the grand slam (although it was great)...it was Edinson shocking even himself by hitting a single to left field during one of the middle innings (I want to say it was the 4th inning). My mom and I were totally cracking up at everyone's shock over it, LOL :lol:

savafan
06-08-2011, 02:27 AM
I was down at the game tonight and while the early innings made me a little nervous, Edinson had a pretty solid game overall and looked much better than he has in the past. It seemed like he was getting stronger as the game went on and if he can build on this start for his next one, he might finally figure out how to start pitching like he's capable of this year.

BTW-Best moment of the game tonight wasn't the grand slam (although it was great)...it was Edinson shocking even himself by hitting a single to left field during one of the middle innings (I want to say it was the 4th inning). My mom and I were totally cracking up at everyone's shock over it, LOL :lol:

I was there at the game tonight as well Heather, my first Reds game since Bruce's MLB debut, and it felt good. The grand slam was great, but you're right about EV's base knock. The crazy thing about it is, this old timer who was sitting in front of me called Volquez getting his first hit of the season, and where it would get through the infield. I shocked the poor old man when I gave him a good natured pat on the back for making it happen.

Blitz Dorsey
06-08-2011, 03:36 AM
It's obviously all about the hair. Seriously, forget sabermetrics for a moment. It's all about the hair.

Way to go EV! Keep proving me wrong. I would love to see him go on some crazy winning streak.

Ron Madden
06-08-2011, 04:40 AM
Don't know about anyone else but I'm very pleased to have Edinson back in the starting rotation.

mth123
06-08-2011, 06:35 AM
Don't know about anyone else but I'm very pleased to have Edinson back in the starting rotation.

He was surely improved from when he went down (and didn't look like Bozo- he needs to give Cueto and Arroyo the name of his barber) but I think the Cubs helped him a bit. A good team would have made him pay a bit more.

Chicago Cubs: Good for what ails ya.

The Voice of IH
06-08-2011, 07:44 AM
Yep, like I said in the OP. It is not inconceivable to think that Edinson Volquez can come back and be a very good pitcher for the Cincinnati Reds. However, simple math tells me that only 58% of his pitches were strikes. Is that concerning or normal? admittedly I do not know MLB averages of these things.

cumberlandreds
06-08-2011, 08:38 AM
Good game by Volquez. But it was against the Cubs. If he can do this over a stretch of games I may become convinced he's turned it around. But until then I will just sit back and watch. It was a good beginning though.

buckeyenut
06-08-2011, 09:43 AM
I want to see one thing out of Volquez. I want to see a 2:1 ratio in strikes thrown to balls thrown. If Volquez throws strikes...everything else will sort itself out. If he does that and gets rocked...I can live with that. Just throw strikes.

I tell this to my ten year olds and it applies to EV just as well. Just throw strikes.

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 10:05 AM
I think he's "back" to a guy who walks a fine line between dominant and disastrous rather than one who was just on the latter side.

edabbs44
06-08-2011, 10:07 AM
I was encouraged by the performance but he has a ways to go before he gets any confidence from me.

oneupper
06-08-2011, 10:13 AM
EV benefitted from some long and hard/hit outs. It was the Cubs.
But a win is a win, and we'll take it. He got thru 7 and that was a big plus.
I still have little confidence he can dominate better hitters and/or throw strikes consistently.

REDREAD
06-08-2011, 10:21 AM
I agree that this start against the Cubs doesn't necessarily prove he's back.
Hopefully it's good for his confidence. It was certainly encouraging.

For the rest of the season, I'd like him to give us a QS at least 50% of the time. Is that realistic? Hard to say at this point. He's certainly got the talent, but the problem seems to be execution.

The Voice of IH
06-12-2011, 09:21 PM
Well, Scene two is about ot occur, talk to you later about.

bucksfan2
06-13-2011, 09:20 AM
I think Bobby Valentine nailed it for me. Its so damn frustrating watching Edinson (and Sanchez) pitch. You see the talent but they just are so inconsistent.

It wasn't Edinson's pitching that did him in. 6 innings of 2 run ball keeps you in every game. Unfortunately for Edinson it was his base running that did him in. I still can't believe he stopped at second when Stubbs hit the ball down the line to the wall. Then he gets double up at 2nd on a fly ball to the wall.

Roy Tucker
06-13-2011, 10:01 AM
I think Bobby Valentine nailed it for me. Its so damn frustrating watching Edinson (and Sanchez) pitch. You see the talent but they just are so inconsistent.

It wasn't Edinson's pitching that did him in. 6 innings of 2 run ball keeps you in every game. Unfortunately for Edinson it was his base running that did him in. I still can't believe he stopped at second when Stubbs hit the ball down the line to the wall. Then he gets double up at 2nd on a fly ball to the wall.

The ESPN camera shot of Stubbs standing on 1st looking at Volquez was priceless. He said a really bad word.

Volquez should have been on 3rd when that fly ball got hit and he would have scored (at least any competent baserunner would have). It would have been a different game then.

Volquez really struggles with his termperament. The guy needs a sports psychologist.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 10:45 AM
I think Bobby Valentine nailed it for me. Its so damn frustrating watching Edinson (and Sanchez) pitch. You see the talent but they just are so inconsistent.

It wasn't Edinson's pitching that did him in. 6 innings of 2 run ball keeps you in every game. Unfortunately for Edinson it was his base running that did him in. I still can't believe he stopped at second when Stubbs hit the ball down the line to the wall. Then he gets double up at 2nd on a fly ball to the wall.
Pitchers baserunning is as dangerous as pitcher's fielding. Few do it well, most just haven't had the experience and opportunities for it to become second nature like an everyday player. I get nervous when pitchers are put in to pinch run for this very reason.

BTW, I watched Carlos Pena round 1st with the bases loaded and get picked off when he had nowhere to go after the coach put up the stop sign at 3rd. It was funny to watch the third base coach and Colvin on third base stand there and stare like "what was he thinking?"

In the same series, Jay Bruce almost got picked off second because Votto held up on a wild pitch.

Moral of the stories: If everyday players make bonehead baserunning blunders by simply not watching the guy in front of them, why pile on a pitcher like he's an idiot?

But hey, at least he has short hair now. That made some happy, and they probably attribute pitching success to it.

westofyou
06-13-2011, 10:48 AM
Moral of the stories: If everyday players make bonehead baserunning blunders by simply not watching the guy in front of them, why pile on a pitcher like he's an idiot?

But hey, at least he has short hair now. That made some happy, and they probably attribute pitching success to it.

Guy can't win with some folks, that much is true.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 11:20 AM
Stupid is as stupid does. And all the instances you cite are examples of stupid.

If you're a pro athlete, pitcher or not, you should be able to hustle on the basepaths. No one is expecting you to steal bases. But put forth some effort, which could allow you to get to third on an obvious double. The problem is effort, and that upsets me about Volquez more than anything.

The second issue, on Votto's fly, is having your head in the game. That's the second thing that upsets me about Volquez.

Effort and having your head in the game. Too much to ask?

Volquez is not in the team's long term plans anymore. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him dealt when the staff gets completely healthy (assuming that ever happens).

cumberlandreds
06-13-2011, 11:31 AM
IMO the latest gaffes by Volquez just shows he doesn't have his head completely in the game like you need to be at the MLB level. There's no excuse for those base running blunders. That's something you see in freshman high school baseball. I am quickly coming to the conclusion the Reds need to cut ties with him. It's getting to the point that he's just not worth it. The Reds should feel relieved he didn't sign an extension in the winter. I would hate to see that much $$ on my payroll for these types of blunders.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2011, 11:35 AM
Pitchers baserunning is as dangerous as pitcher's fielding. Few do it well, most just haven't had the experience and opportunities for it to become second nature like an everyday player. I get nervous when pitchers are put in to pinch run for this very reason.

BTW, I watched Carlos Pena round 1st with the bases loaded and get picked off when he had nowhere to go after the coach put up the stop sign at 3rd. It was funny to watch the third base coach and Colvin on third base stand there and stare like "what was he thinking?"

In the same series, Jay Bruce almost got picked off second because Votto held up on a wild pitch.

Moral of the stories: If everyday players make bonehead baserunning blunders by simply not watching the guy in front of them, why pile on a pitcher like he's an idiot?

But hey, at least he has short hair now. That made some happy, and they probably attribute pitching success to it.

Agreed. It's not like Volquez is the only player on the team that has made a stupid baserunning mistake. In fact, it happens a lot with this team. Volquez just can't catch a break around here. The guy pitched a very good ballgame last night.

jojo
06-13-2011, 11:40 AM
I'd entertain an argument for trading a position player because he couldn't play defense but I'm not sure I'd consider trading a pitcher because he couldn't run the bases.

bucksfan2
06-13-2011, 11:41 AM
Agreed. It's not like Volquez is the only player on the team that has made a stupid baserunning mistake. In fact, it happens a lot with this team. Volquez just can't catch a break around here. The guy pitched a very good ballgame last night.

Why make excuses for him? The baserunning mistakes were inexcusable. The baserunning mistakes are a large factor in why they lost. If Edinson does his job and gets to 3rd base the infield has to come in. The inning has a completely different tilt to it. Two sac flies could get the Reds from 2-1 to 4-1. Then how in the world do you get doubled up on a fly ball to the wall, when your not in motion? What in the world was he doing?!?!?!

He can't catch a break? If you make plays that even grade school baseball players don't make then you don't deserve a break. Its as simple as running the bases and paying attention to your coaches. Heck my wife in softball knows to pick up and listen to the 3rd base coach.

Roy Tucker
06-13-2011, 11:43 AM
IMO the latest gaffes by Volquez just shows he doesn't have his head completely in the game like you need to be at the MLB level. There's no excuse for those base running blunders. That's something you see in freshman high school baseball. I am quickly coming to the conclusion the Reds need to cut ties with him. It's getting to the point that he's just not worth it. The Reds should feel relieved he didn't sign an extension in the winter. I would hate to see that much $$ on my payroll for these types of blunders.

It was a couple bone-headed plays, yes. But let's not get carried away. The guy pitched well over 6 innings. He got himself out of some jams which used to be his fatal flaw. There is still a lot to like about Edinson Volquez.

He's made improvements. Like I tell my wife about our kids, improvement comes in very small increments. It's like turning an ocean liner. It happens very slowly and takes a long time for the turn to happen. Patience is the key. Be happy (or last content) with very small increments of change. They begin to add up over time.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2011, 11:48 AM
Why make excuses for him? The baserunning mistakes were inexcusable. The baserunning mistakes are a large factor in why they lost. If Edinson does his job and gets to 3rd base the infield has to come in. The inning has a completely different tilt to it. Two sac flies could get the Reds from 2-1 to 4-1. Then how in the world do you get doubled up on a fly ball to the wall, when your not in motion? What in the world was he doing?!?!?!

He can't catch a break? If you make plays that even grade school baseball players don't make then you don't deserve a break. Its as simple as running the bases and paying attention to your coaches. Heck my wife in softball knows to pick up and listen to the 3rd base coach.

Last time I checked, Edinson did his job last night. He allowed two runs over six innings. If the other guys had did their job we would be talking about the Reds winning three of four (or all four becuase they stranded a small village Friday night too). If the offense had taken advantage of their great scoring opportunity in the 4th inning we wouldn't even be talking about the baserunning mistake right now.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 11:52 AM
Last time I checked, Edinson did his job last night.

Funny... I thought being a baseball player meant doing everything to help your team win.

NJReds
06-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Guy can't win with some folks, that much is true.

I was critical of EV in the gamethread last night. Have we reached a point where any criticism against a guy means that he's hated. Did you see Stubbs and Votto's reactions to EV last night? Is it too much to ask for players to pay attention and have their head in the game. It can be the difference some nights between winning and losing.

I root for EV to do well. I want him to win the Cy Young. He certainly has the physical tools. But watching him pitch is maddening at times when he constantly walks the leadoff hitter in an inning and goes through stretches where he looks scared to throw a strike.

I think we need to move past the idea that any criticism of a player means your a hater, and any defense of a player means that you're looking through rose colored glasses.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2011, 11:55 AM
Funny... I thought being a baseball player meant doing everything to help your team win.

So if Volquez had grounded out instead of getting a hit to begin that inning would that change your opinion of his night?

RedsManRick
06-13-2011, 12:00 PM
Let's assume he gave up one more run on the mound instead of on the bases. He still had a solid outing. If you lose a game because of a baserunning gaffe by a pitcher, you probably didn't deserve to win the game in the first place.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 12:04 PM
So if Volquez had grounded out instead of getting a hit to begin that inning would that change your opinion of his night?

But he didn't. He got a hit. Which he should try to do every time he comes to the plate. Because THAT'S HIS JOB TOO. And then when he's on base, he should run the bases alertly and intelligently.

It's the same criticism we all had for BPhil for getting picked at second talking to Rollins. We didn't give him a free pass because he plays gold glove defense, right?

Do everything to help your team win. That's kind of the whole point of a team game, right?

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 12:07 PM
I think we need to move past the idea that any criticism of a player means your a hater, and any defense of a player means that you're looking through rose colored glasses.

This, this, a million times this. The brush strokes are getting wider, and that's concerning.

westofyou
06-13-2011, 12:14 PM
I'd entertain an argument for trading a position player because he couldn't play defense but I'm not sure I'd consider trading a pitcher because he couldn't run the bases.

Especially considering he's been on 2nd base around 2 times since 2008.

bucksfan2
06-13-2011, 12:21 PM
Last time I checked, Edinson did his job last night. He allowed two runs over six innings. If the other guys had did their job we would be talking about the Reds winning three of four (or all four becuase they stranded a small village Friday night too). If the offense had taken advantage of their great scoring opportunity in the 4th inning we wouldn't even be talking about the baserunning mistake right now.

Last time I checked, if your in the NL pitchers hit. Its a part of the game that can't be overlooked, and a part of the game that can be critical to the overall success of the team. When your playing close games you can't give away scoring chances like Edinson did. There wasn't anything difficult about what he had to do. The double turned into a single was in front of Edinson the entire time. The fly ball was to the freakin warning track and he got doubled up. This is his third season in the NL, base running issues shouldn't be all that difficult.

The offense was trying to take advantage of a leadoff hit and ball down the line. It should have been 2nd and 3rd with no outs and the heart of the lineup coming. How can you harp on the offense then omit the huge blunder that that inning caused.

Edinson did pitch a nice game. He held the worst offense in baseball to 2 runs over 6 innings. He kept his team in the game and you would take an outing like that every time he takes the mound. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to win the game and you have a series of baserunning blunders to point to.

Blitz Dorsey
06-13-2011, 12:30 PM
I am happily eating some crow right now. Just a little bit of crow because I'm not quite ready to proclaim "everything is well" with Edinson after two good starts. But needless to say I'm EXTREMELY encouraged. The Reds need him to be at least above average/good if they are going to have a chance of contending for the playoffs ... especially with Bailey injured as usual. It's never anything major with Homer, but he's never in the rotation for a long period of time. My hopes with him is that he somehow gets his trade value back where it's high ... and the Reds deal him for a LF of the future.

But anyway, in terms of Volquez: Let's all be honest here: It's definitely the hair. You might think that sounds silly, but that just makes you silly. It's without question the hair. You can't have hair like he did and be successful. And I don't mean dreds or braids in general. Some guys can pull it off quite well -- like Bob Marley (and even Johnny Cueto to an extent). But Volquez looked horrible like that. Now he looks like he means business. (The entire previous paragraph was TIC. Well, kind of.)

Roy Tucker
06-13-2011, 12:42 PM
I think we need to move past the idea that any criticism of a player means your a hater, and any defense of a player means that you're looking through rose colored glasses.


http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/4836/259335-animal_house_pinto1_super.jpg

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2011, 01:15 PM
Let's assume he gave up one more run on the mound instead of on the bases. He still had a solid outing. If you lose a game because of a baserunning gaffe by a pitcher, you probably didn't deserve to win the game in the first place.

This post nails it.

Baserunning gaffe or not, Volquez did his job last night. His main job is to prevent the opponent from scoring runs - he did a nice job of that. 6 IP, 2 R. I'll take that every game, regardless of who he's facing. Blame the offense for only scoring one run in the 4th inning when they had the bases loaded with no outs.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. And all the instances you cite are examples of stupid.

If you're a pro athlete, pitcher or not, you should be able to hustle on the basepaths. No one is expecting you to steal bases. But put forth some effort, which could allow you to get to third on an obvious double. The problem is effort, and that upsets me about Volquez more than anything.

The second issue, on Votto's fly, is having your head in the game. That's the second thing that upsets me about Volquez.

Effort and having your head in the game. Too much to ask?

Volquez is not in the team's long term plans anymore. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him dealt when the staff gets completely healthy (assuming that ever happens).I make mistakes on my job. Usually, it is performing tasks I'm not familiar with but I try to do because I'm forced to, other times its things I should know better than to do. Yet I do them. Does that make me "stupid is as stupid does?"

Yes, the expectation is to do your job, regardless of your trade. Sometimes, our mind, body and soul let us down. Sometimes you are in a profession that a simple mistake is life or death, like the surgeon. My job or the ballplayer's job is not one of them.

Being a little humble tempers expectations of others.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 01:25 PM
I was critical of EV in the gamethread last night. Have we reached a point where any criticism against a guy means that he's hated. Did you see Stubbs and Votto's reactions to EV last night? Is it too much to ask for players to pay attention and have their head in the game. It can be the difference some nights between winning and losing.

I root for EV to do well. I want him to win the Cy Young. He certainly has the physical tools. But watching him pitch is maddening at times when he constantly walks the leadoff hitter in an inning and goes through stretches where he looks scared to throw a strike.

I think we need to move past the idea that any criticism of a player means your a hater, and any defense of a player means that you're looking through rose colored glasses.Primarily, I was evaluating the legitimacy of the criticism, but also noted that Volquez as a subject to some is getting near RZ Rule 5 territory.

reds44
06-13-2011, 01:33 PM
Volquez has pitched well in his two starts since coming off the DL. Have fun arguing his baserunning though. Few things in life are more irrelevant than that.

NJReds
06-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Primarily, I was evaluating the legitimacy of the criticism, but also noted that Volquez as a subject to some is getting near RZ Rule 5 territory.

True. He can drive you to drink while he's pitching, though. Although the results since his callup have been much better.

Unfortunately, he'll always be rated against the guy he was traded for, so the expectations will be much highter and he'll draw more criticism than perhaps is warranted.

Brutus
06-13-2011, 02:54 PM
I make mistakes on my job. Usually, it is performing tasks I'm not familiar with but I try to do because I'm forced to, other times its things I should know better than to do. Yet I do them. Does that make me "stupid is as stupid does?"

Yes, the expectation is to do your job, regardless of your trade. Sometimes, our mind, body and soul let us down. Sometimes you are in a profession that a simple mistake is life or death, like the surgeon. My job or the ballplayer's job is not one of them.

Being a little humble tempers expectations of others.

His job is to play baseball -- hit, run, field -- all those things. Baserunning is part of his job description. Obviously pitching is his primary duty and the one he's going to be judged on, but it all counts. A salesman's job is to sell, and while they're not going to get fired if they don't take out the trash at the end of the day, many of them are still required to do it.

Volquez didn't just make one baserunning mistake, he made two in the same inning. They were costly mistakes because it did very likely cost the Reds at least one run, and who knows what would have happened if he and Stubbs had both advanced. I don't think he deserves all the blame for the loss because of those two mistakes, since he pitched effectively enough to keep the Reds in the game, but I also don't think they should be dismissed as a baserunner simply because he's a pitcher. He's a baseball player. You're taught all those things in spring training... and worse, in little league. Fundamentals are part of the job regardless of position.

westofyou
06-13-2011, 03:01 PM
He's a baseball player. You're taught all those things in spring training... and worse, in little league.


You think he played organized little league?

Probably not, plus I'm fairly certain that the amount of time he spent being schooled on the bases in ST was likely about .5% of his instruction on the field.

Pitchers spend time pitching, maybe bunting, maybe covering 1st or working on the cutoff or backing up a base, probably not so much on the bases.

is it right?

Probably not in the world of HS or Knothole, In MLB pitchers don't generally spend too much time on the bases (Tom Gordon, no runs scored in his career)

Standing on 2nd base last night was Volquez second time ever in his career, probably not the best time to expect perfection from a pitcher.

Brutus
06-13-2011, 03:45 PM
You think he played organized little league?

Probably not, plus I'm fairly certain that the amount of time he spent being schooled on the bases in ST was likely about .5% of his instruction on the field.

Pitchers spend time pitching, maybe bunting, maybe covering 1st or working on the cutoff or backing up a base, probably not so much on the bases.

is it right?

Probably not in the world of HS or Knothole, In MLB pitchers don't generally spend too much time on the bases (Tom Gordon, no runs scored in his career)

Standing on 2nd base last night was Volquez second time ever in his career, probably not the best time to expect perfection from a pitcher.

Hard to say. But Barahona, D.R. has had a successful Little League program for a long time, so my hunch is that yes, he probably did play Little League. Not all kids in those countries play, or have access to that kind of skill instruction, but a lot of them do. I'd not be surprised that he did play.

Even if .5 percent of his 40 days in spring training were spent on baserunning, he's been apart of the last six MLB spring training routines and has been to extended spring training at least a few times. I'm guessing that he's been apart of enough skill instruction at running the bases that he can't plead ignorance on it. There's not really a lot to learn: on a ball hit to the outfield, prior to rounding second, look at the base coach. On a fly ball hit to left when on second, go halfway and stop. Really not groundbreaking fundamentals to learn.

I respect that he's not been in that situation a lot. But there wasn't a lot for him to know.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 03:55 PM
His job is to play baseball -- hit, run, field -- all those things. Baserunning is part of his job description. Obviously pitching is his primary duty and the one he's going to be judged on, but it all counts. A salesman's job is to sell, and while they're not going to get fired if they don't take out the trash at the end of the day, many of them are still required to do it.

Volquez didn't just make one baserunning mistake, he made two in the same inning. They were costly mistakes because it did very likely cost the Reds at least one run, and who knows what would have happened if he and Stubbs had both advanced. I don't think he deserves all the blame for the loss because of those two mistakes, since he pitched effectively enough to keep the Reds in the game, but I also don't think they should be dismissed as a baserunner simply because he's a pitcher. He's a baseball player. You're taught all those things in spring training... and worse, in little league. Fundamentals are part of the job regardless of position.

My point, in a nutshell, is that I can cut a guy some slack for making mistakes in a position that he isn't familiar with.

Also, I know that you have watched enough MLB to know that "baseball player" is not the way the game works at this level. Unless he was asleep or skipped the training session the team had that would have prepared him for being a fundamentally sound baserunner, the blame you are placing on the player belongs to the organization, and the 29 others in the majors, who have decided that it is most critical that baseball time is spent primarily (prob. 95% I'd guess) on practicing and training for their pitching. If you just have to blame someone, blame his org., then ask yourself if you want better baserunning out of your pitchers, perhaps at the expense of them working on pitching skills or conditioning.

If you want to start on where the org. could improve with pitchers becoming more rounded, they have clearly worked on pitcher's fielding and it is a competitive advantage. I love watching them throw out the lead runner on marginal bunts, all while not throwing the ball into centerfield or down the left field line like we've witnessed other team's pitchers doing on our behalf.

Now, if they could just convince Dusty to quit asking pitcher's who struggle with the basics of laying down a bunt to slug bunt away one or two strikes, we might start talking about the pitchers net creating runs offensively.

But baserunning practice because of one guy's blunder in one game? Probably not looking to put that one on the daytime workout agenda anytime soon.

Brutus
06-13-2011, 04:18 PM
My point, in a nutshell, is that I can cut a guy some slack for making mistakes in a position that he isn't familiar with.

Also, I know that you have watched enough MLB to know that "baseball player" is not the way the game works at this level. Unless he was asleep or skipped the training session the team had that would have prepared him for being a fundamentally sound baserunner, the blame you are placing on the player belongs to the organization, and the 29 others in the majors, who have decided that it is most critical that baseball time is spent primarily (prob. 95% I'd guess) on practicing and training for their pitching. If you just have to blame someone, blame his org., then ask yourself if you want better baserunning out of your pitchers, perhaps at the expense of them working on pitching skills or conditioning.

If you want to start on where the org. could improve with pitchers becoming more rounded, they have clearly worked on pitcher's fielding and it is a competitive advantage. I love watching them throw out the lead runner on marginal bunts, all while not throwing the ball into centerfield or down the left field line like we've witnessed other team's pitchers doing on our behalf.

Now, if they could just convince Dusty to quit asking pitcher's who struggle with the basics of laying down a bunt to slug bunt away one or two strikes, we might start talking about the pitchers net creating runs offensively.

But baserunning practice because of one guy's blunder in one game? Probably not looking to put that one on the daytime workout agenda anytime soon.

There's not a lot to learn about baserunning. I'm not even disputing that not a lot of time is taught teaching it to pitchers. We're in full agreement. But the general fundamentals of looking at the third base coach when rounding second base and going halfway on a flyball to leftfield are fundamentals that are taught in Little League and need very little instruction to understand. Seriously, I picked that up at 11 or 12 years old with very little effort. I don't think we need to blame the organization for a guy not understanding that in a Major League baseball uniform.

We're talking very elementary fundamentals here. These are things that you can spend a few hours at the beginning of spring training on, and you're expected to then know them. Even if they don't spend a ton more time working on them the rest of the spring, you shouldn't have to. They're simple things to learn.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 04:22 PM
There's not a lot to learn about baserunning. I'm not even disputing that not a lot of time is taught teaching it to pitchers. We're in full agreement. But the general fundamentals of looking at the third base coach when rounding second base and going halfway on a flyball to leftfield are fundamentals that are taught in Little League and need very little instruction to understand. Seriously, I picked that up at 11 or 12 years old with very little effort. I don't think we need to blame the organization for a guy not understanding that in a Major League baseball uniform.

We're talking very elementary fundamentals here. These are things that you can spend a few hours at the beginning of spring training on, and you're expected to then know them. Even if they don't spend a ton more time working on them the rest of the spring, you shouldn't have to. They're simple things to learn.It always sounds so easy, doesn't it? It makes you wonder why players ever make seemingly simple mistakes. But they do. Heck, I heard Albert Pujols loafed on a defensive play the other day. Talk about the sky falling.

bucksfan2
06-13-2011, 04:23 PM
My point, in a nutshell, is that I can cut a guy some slack for making mistakes in a position that he isn't familiar with.

Wasn't this the same guy who pretty much blamed the offense for not scoring enough runs right before he was sent down to AAA?

I don't understand why it is too much to ask to demand any player that could potentially run the bases know what he is doing? I have a feeling that if this were Leake, Wood, Arroyo, or Cueto we would be a little more critical.

If you want to cut him some slack thats fine with me. But the reality is the Reds wasted another game they could have won. They went into San Fran, got some solid pitching, and split a 4 game series. Lets not forget that the offensive unit that the Giants put out was a mix old and AA ball. But some how they were able to win 2 games to split the series. The Volquez running blunders were a huge reason why the Reds lost the game yesterday. They could have scored 2 runs in that situation without getting a hit. They could have had a 4-1 lead against a Giants offense who had been struggling to score at home. They could have, should have, but they didn't. They didn't because a major league player decided to have a brain fart and forget how to run the bases.

Reds Freak
06-13-2011, 04:25 PM
This goes beyond Volquez's two baserunning errors last night. The greater problem is Volquez's seemingly lack of understanding of the game and desire to improve on it (baserunning, inexcusable walks to horrible hitters, attitude, mental makeup, etc.).

You wonder if Votto's outburst last night was random frustration or if it shows Volquez's teammates are starting to get fed up with his act as well...

Brutus
06-13-2011, 04:28 PM
It always sounds so easy, doesn't it? It makes you wonder why players ever make seemingly simple mistakes. But they do. Heck, I heard Albert Pujols loafed on a defensive play the other day. Talk about the sky falling.

Who says the sky is falling? It's simply an observation of critical fundamental errors that may have contributed to the Reds losing a game. It's a message board where these mistakes are discussed on a daily basis. I think it's quite applicable here.

I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion other than to say I don't think his being a pitcher should give him a pass for bad fundamentals.

GoReds
06-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Couple of things I know about Edinson:

- He has a ton of pitching talent.
- He is not a finished product, whose progress is slower than many would like.
- He has violated baseball "code" (performance enhancers)
- The Reds aren't running away with the division.
- Volquez, Gomes and Janish are up for the "Adam Dunn" moniker (Redszone target).

jojo
06-13-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't understand why it is too much to ask to demand any player that could potentially run the bases know what he is doing?

Couldn't that same argument be made about pitchers and hitting? No one really gnashes teeth over a pitcher having an OPS of .200.


I have a feeling that if this were Leake, Wood, Arroyo, or Cueto we would be a little more critical.

I don't think that's true at all. In fact, the gnashing over Volquez's poor base running last evening has already surpassed the level generally seen on redszone when Phillips makes one of his frequent bad base running plays.

Volquez is clearly out of his element on the base paths. Should that ever be the case for anyone at the major league level? One would hope not but it is what it is. We're all probably comfortable at this point suggesting that Volquez isn't oozing intangibles.

It bit the Reds behind last night and that's unfortunate.

bucksfan2
06-13-2011, 04:41 PM
Who says the sky is falling? It's simply an observation of critical fundamental errors that may have contributed to the Reds losing a game. It's a message board where these mistakes are discussed on a daily basis. I think it's quite applicable here.

I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion other than to say I don't think his being a pitcher should give him a pass for bad fundamentals.

For about a month now the Reds have been stuck in a funk. They have been playing ok baseball but losing close games late. Its been bunt hits, marathon extra inning games, extra inning loses, etc. The problem is those losses can all be attributed to small plays here and there. And those losses keep mounting. Think back to the series against the Phillies, Braves, Indians, Giants, and Dodgers, how many of those close games went the wrong way? How many games have the Reds been unable to finish? Its not a huge thing, or "sky is falling thing" its letting winnable games slip through your fingers.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Who says the sky is falling? It's simply an observation of critical fundamental errors that may have contributed to the Reds losing a game. It's a message board where these mistakes are discussed on a daily basis. I think it's quite applicable here.

I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion other than to say I don't think his being a pitcher should give him a pass for bad fundamentals.I never gave him a pass. I am accepting that this is an explainable, understandable event without having to pontificate or denigrate.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 04:54 PM
For about a month now the Reds have been stuck in a funk. They have been playing ok baseball but losing close games late. Its been bunt hits, marathon extra inning games, extra inning loses, etc. The problem is those losses can all be attributed to small plays here and there. And those losses keep mounting. Think back to the series against the Phillies, Braves, Indians, Giants, and Dodgers, how many of those close games went the wrong way? How many games have the Reds been unable to finish? Its not a huge thing, or "sky is falling thing" its letting winnable games slip through your fingers.What about Kerry Wood throwing the ball to the wall on a bunt, or Volquez clearing the bases on a squibber to first in the same game? That was a loseable game that we won. I guess "these things even out" has to be said as many times as "we keep on failing to do the little things to win winnable games" is said.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 05:06 PM
I make mistakes on my job. Usually, it is performing tasks I'm not familiar with but I try to do because I'm forced to, other times its things I should know better than to do. Yet I do them. Does that make me "stupid is as stupid does?"

Yes, the expectation is to do your job, regardless of your trade. Sometimes, our mind, body and soul let us down. Sometimes you are in a profession that a simple mistake is life or death, like the surgeon. My job or the ballplayer's job is not one of them.

Being a little humble tempers expectations of others.

Dude, you don't know me. Don't pretend to say whether I'm humble or not.

I'm reacting on a message board the same way that Joey Votto and Drew Stubbs reacted in-game (and on camera): angry and in disbelief at the lack of effort and concentration.

Want to serve them some humble pie?

Superdude
06-13-2011, 05:55 PM
This goes beyond Volquez's two baserunning errors last night. The greater problem is Volquez's seemingly lack of understanding of the game and desire to improve on it (baserunning, inexcusable walks to horrible hitters, attitude, mental makeup, etc.).

When did this mental makeup thing start? Volquez has had trouble locating pitches, he's not trying to walk guys.

He's had back to back pretty solid starts now and could be a huge factor for this team down the stretch. The baserunning thing may have screwed us last night, but that's not going to impact how we move forward. Volquez might be on base a handful of times the rest of the season.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2011, 06:01 PM
They could have had a 4-1 lead against a Giants offense who had been struggling to score at home. They could have, should have, but they didn't. They didn't because a major league player decided to have a brain fart and forget how to run the bases.

The inning before that the Reds had a 1-0 lead and had the bases loaded with no outs and only managed one run. I'd place more blame on the offense than I would Volquez's baserunning gaffe.

Volquez will never stand a chance with some around here because of who he was traded for. And I wish people would stop with the attitude/makeup issues. It's crap.

HokieRed
06-13-2011, 07:17 PM
The inning before that the Reds had a 1-0 lead and had the bases loaded with no outs and only managed one run. I'd place more blame on the offense than I would Volquez's baserunning gaffe.

Volquez will never stand a chance with some around here because of who he was traded for. And I wish people would stop with the attitude/makeup issues. It's crap.

Agree. In fact, it was a string of mistakes and failures all night long. A couple of examples: Inning one, leadoff hitter on, the 2 hitter doesn't do anything that would move him into scoring position for the MVP, who then hits into a DP; inning 2, the first batter gets on, gets thrown out stealing in what was I guess a botched hit and run etc. etc.

traderumor
06-13-2011, 07:25 PM
Dude, you don't know me. Don't pretend to say whether I'm humble or not.

I'm reacting on a message board the same way that Joey Votto and Drew Stubbs reacted in-game (and on camera): angry and in disbelief at the lack of effort and concentration.

Want to serve them some humble pie?Yet you have no problem denigrating a ballplayer with "stupid is as stupid does" behind your keyboard anonymously. Your comments were arrogant. I don't have to know you to comment on what you typed.

Oh, and you don't know me well enough to call me dude.

reds44
06-13-2011, 07:31 PM
The inning before that the Reds had a 1-0 lead and had the bases loaded with no outs and only managed one run. I'd place more blame on the offense than I would Volquez's baserunning gaffe.

Volquez will never stand a chance with some around here because of who he was traded for. And I wish people would stop with the attitude/makeup issues. It's crap.

It's baseless and impossible to prove and the fact that people here are allowed to constantly get away with it is a shame.

Superdude
06-13-2011, 07:41 PM
It's baseless and impossible to prove and the fact that people here are allowed to constantly get away with it is a shame.

Dude, scientists and economists came together long ago to prove that anyone who throws 95MPH with below average control has a head worth approximately ten cents barring inflation. It's proven fact.

westofyou
06-13-2011, 07:47 PM
Speaking of baserunning the Reds on the whole are doing well this year



1st to 3rd 2nd to Home 1st to Home DP Bases BR BR SB Net
Year Adv Opp Adv Opp Adv Opp Opp GIDP Taken Outs Gain Gain Gain
2011 39 135 51 87 19 35 521 42 66 18 11 9 20

Scrap Irony
06-13-2011, 08:52 PM
It's baseless and impossible to prove and the fact that people here are allowed to constantly get away with it is a shame.

Agreed.

We've demanded proof for far less.

Volquez is simply not a "Cincinnati" type of player. His type of music, his hair, his style, his culture, his obvious talent but occasional mental vapor lock-- Ohioans (and Kentuckians and Hoosiers and Mountaineers) prefer their players scrappier, happier, and/or more intense.

edabbs44
06-13-2011, 09:16 PM
It's true that Volquez gets more leeway on the basepaths than everyday players and at the plate as well. And he should. But he shouldn't get a free pass on complete bonehead plays which looked to have a touch of laziness involved. I don't expect kickers to tackle a breakaway runner on a kickoff, but I also don't expect them to just jog over in the runner's general direction and make zero attempt.

He pitched "well" last night, however it doesn't mean he should be bulletproof in the other aspects of his game. That's a no brainer.

edabbs44
06-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Agreed.

We've demanded proof for far less.

Volquez is simply not a "Cincinnati" type of player. His type of music, his hair, his style, his culture, his obvious talent but occasional mental vapor lock-- Ohioans (and Kentuckians and Hoosiers and Mountaineers) prefer their players scrappier, happier, and/or more intense.

More than that, the amount of leeway that some posters give certain players on the team correlates strongly to the amount said poster debated for/against such player. I think we all can be guilty of that from time to time.

edabbs44
06-13-2011, 09:21 PM
The inning before that the Reds had a 1-0 lead and had the bases loaded with no outs and only managed one run. I'd place more blame on the offense than I would Volquez's baserunning gaffe.

Volquez will never stand a chance with some around here because of who he was traded for. And I wish people would stop with the attitude/makeup issues. It's crap.

According to one run expectancy matrix I pulled up, 44% of the time a team will get 0 or 1 run. Not that much of an outlier, I don't think.

EDIT: I was wrong

jojo
06-13-2011, 09:37 PM
According to one run expectancy matrix I pulled up, 44% of the time a team will get 0 or 1 run. Not that much of an outlier, I don't think.

On average a team should expect to score roughly 2.5 runs when starting an inning with bases loaded and no outs....

edabbs44
06-13-2011, 09:40 PM
On average a team should expect to score roughly 2.5 runs when starting an inning with bases loaded and no outs....

I see...the chart I looked at said different but I just found another.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2011, 11:02 PM
Yet you have no problem denigrating a ballplayer with "stupid is as stupid does" behind your keyboard anonymously. Your comments were arrogant. I don't have to know you to comment on what you typed.

Oh, and you don't know me well enough to call me dude.

Whatever, dude. Volquez made a stupid mistake. I hope we dont hurt ballplayers' feelings by commenting on a message board.

You conveniently ignored the part in the post about Votto and Stubbs being visibly upset. Was their reaction arrogant?

signalhome
06-13-2011, 11:47 PM
Agreed.

We've demanded proof for far less.

Volquez is simply not a "Cincinnati" type of player. His type of music, his hair, his style, his culture, his obvious talent but occasional mental vapor lock-- Ohioans (and Kentuckians and Hoosiers and Mountaineers) prefer their players scrappier, happier, and/or more intense.

As a Kentuckian, I cannot even count the number of times I have heard "maybe he could pitch if he'd cut that stupid hair", referring to Cueto, Arroyo, or especially Volquez. I don't think most people in my area (very small southeast Kentucky town) dig the do-rag and dreads look.

Roy Tucker
06-14-2011, 12:27 AM
People, c'mon. Let's have a sense of proportion about things.

I personally don't give a rat's behind if his hair is dyed purple and down to his butt or if he has a buzz cut. If he can pitch and he wears the Reds uniform, then I'm all for him. I even liked Deion Sanders when he was on the Reds.

I'll get a little ticked off if he has a brain cramp on the bases (IIRC, this isn't the first time this year for a Red), but if the Edinson Volquez we've seen since he came back from the minors is what we get this year, I'll overlook a baserunning gaffe and take the positives.

Chip R
06-14-2011, 12:33 AM
People, c'mon. Let's have a sense of proportion about things.

I personally don't give a rat's behind if his hair is dyed purple and down to his butt or if he has a buzz cut. If he can pitch and he wears the Reds uniform, then I'm all for him. I even liked Deion Sanders when he was on the Reds.

I'll get a little ticked off if he has a brain cramp on the bases (IIRC, this isn't the first time this year for a Red), but if the Edinson Volquez we've seen since he came back from the minors is what we get this year, I'll overlook a baserunning gaffe and take the positives.

+1

mth123
06-14-2011, 04:55 AM
People, c'mon. Let's have a sense of proportion about things.

I personally don't give a rat's behind if his hair is dyed purple and down to his butt or if he has a buzz cut. If he can pitch and he wears the Reds uniform, then I'm all for him. I even liked Deion Sanders when he was on the Reds.

I'll get a little ticked off if he has a brain cramp on the bases (IIRC, this isn't the first time this year for a Red), but if the Edinson Volquez we've seen since he came back from the minors is what we get this year, I'll overlook a baserunning gaffe and take the positives.

Glad I wasn't part of this thread, but this post gets a :thumbup: from me.

Ron Madden
06-14-2011, 06:15 AM
People, c'mon. Let's have a sense of proportion about things.

I personally don't give a rat's behind if his hair is dyed purple and down to his butt or if he has a buzz cut. If he can pitch and he wears the Reds uniform, then I'm all for him. I even liked Deion Sanders when he was on the Reds.

I'll get a little ticked off if he has a brain cramp on the bases (IIRC, this isn't the first time this year for a Red), but if the Edinson Volquez we've seen since he came back from the minors is what we get this year, I'll overlook a baserunning gaffe and take the positives.


This is also my opinion in a nutshell. :beerme:

bucksfan2
06-14-2011, 09:30 AM
The inning before that the Reds had a 1-0 lead and had the bases loaded with no outs and only managed one run. I'd place more blame on the offense than I would Volquez's baserunning gaffe.

Its baseball. Teams get out of bases loaded jams from time to time. If it happens its a disappointment but its the nature of the game. They got 1 run because of pitching, defense, and poor hitting not bone headed baseball plays. Thats where I draw the line, you get your head out of your rear and you don't hurt your team.


Volquez will never stand a chance with some around here because of who he was traded for. And I wish people would stop with the attitude/makeup issues. It's crap.

Quite frankly I don't care who Volquez was traded for. It happened and its water under the bridge now. I liked Hamilton when he was a Red and still root for him on the Rangers. But that said I don't hold anything that Hamilton does over Volquez head. Neither players can control who they are traded for.

As for attitude and makeup issues its not crap. Edinson has displayed a long line of issues back to his time in Texas and unfortunately they keep rearing their ugly head. If you want to turn a blind eye to it thats your prerogative. By the way this has nothing to do with his hair.

traderumor
06-14-2011, 10:36 AM
Whatever, dude. Volquez made a stupid mistake. I hope we dont hurt ballplayers' feelings by commenting on a message board.

You conveniently ignored the part in the post about Votto and Stubbs being visibly upset. Was their reaction arrogant?I didn't ignore anything. I read it, didn't feel the need to comment on YOUR opinion. What is puzzling is why you are taking so seriously comments I made. After all, I was just commenting on a message board.

traderumor
06-14-2011, 10:38 AM
People, c'mon. Let's have a sense of proportion about things.

I personally don't give a rat's behind if his hair is dyed purple and down to his butt or if he has a buzz cut. If he can pitch and he wears the Reds uniform, then I'm all for him. I even liked Deion Sanders when he was on the Reds.

I'll get a little ticked off if he has a brain cramp on the bases (IIRC, this isn't the first time this year for a Red), but if the Edinson Volquez we've seen since he came back from the minors is what we get this year, I'll overlook a baserunning gaffe and take the positives.Great, no one was talking about you then, right? There have been posters commenting on his hair and relating it to performance and what type of person he is.

Scrap Irony
06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
And how he's "dumb", a "thrower not a pitcher", and below mentally standard.

Without proof.

I HATE when my high school kids do that. Somehow, it's much, much worse when adults do the same.

Chip R
06-14-2011, 12:10 PM
This board would have loved Rube Waddell.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 12:27 PM
This board would have loved Rube Waddell.

Every player has to play like a 2 dimensional glass chewing gamer that has dirty knees and 8 words for Fudge.

Fiction is fun, but the game is played by humans, not cardboard replicas of the fan base or their presumptions of how every player should appear if they were playing Pete Rose in a school play.

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2011, 12:39 PM
As for attitude and makeup issues its not crap. Edinson has displayed a long line of issues back to his time in Texas and unfortunately they keep rearing their ugly head. If you want to turn a blind eye to it thats your prerogative. By the way this has nothing to do with his hair.

You must have some inside info. You care to share it with us all? Because all these makeup issues he's had with the Reds have apparently been kept quiet. Please share with us.

bucksfan2
06-14-2011, 12:45 PM
Yuu must have some inside info. You care to share it with us all? Because all these makeup issues he's had with the Reds have apparently been kept quiet. Please share with us.

I don't know I would say waiving a gun in a car caught on video isn't exactly how you want your pitcher spending his off season. But I guess thats better than his next off season when he was busted for PED's. And a lot of the antics that caused him to be sent down in the Texas organization seem to have manifested themselves with the Reds.

Scrap Irony
06-14-2011, 12:52 PM
The gun was in a music video. He was playing a part. That's like calling Kenny Rogers a degenerate womanizer, gambler, and alcoholic because you saw the video to The Gambler.

And the PEDs issue has NOTHING to do with your perceived attitude issue. (As an aside, do we even know if he did that on his own, or if the Reds, knowing he wasn't going to be ready for half a season at least, had him try them?)

You don't like the guy. That's okay. But don't cloud the true issue with half-truths and supposition.

Prove it.

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2011, 12:57 PM
I don't know I would say waiving a gun in a car caught on video isn't exactly how you want your pitcher spending his off season. But I guess thats better than his next off season when he was busted for PED's. And a lot of the antics that caused him to be sent down in the Texas organization seem to have manifested themselves with the Reds.

Um, the gun was in a music video for gosh sakes. I don't see what the big deal with that is? He didn't break any laws.

Kinda weird seeing the Hamilton supporters constantly rag on Volquez for his "makeup" issues when Hamilton is the one stealing from his grandma, cheating on his wife, drinking heavily, and using hardcore drugs. Talk about character issues.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 12:58 PM
Frank Robinson actually had a real gun in public, he must have been a gangsta.

bucksfan2
06-14-2011, 01:06 PM
The gun was in a music video. He was playing a part. That's like calling Kenny Rogers a degenerate womanizer, gambler, and alcoholic because you saw the video to The Gambler.

And the PEDs issue has NOTHING to do with your perceived attitude issue. (As an aside, do we even know if he did that on his own, or if the Reds, knowing he wasn't going to be ready for half a season at least, had him try them?)

You don't like the guy. That's okay. But don't cloud the true issue with half-truths and supposition.

Prove it.

Music video or not I don't want a play on my team seen waiving a gun in any video. Its similar to what Carmelo found himself in a few years ago with his ill fated music video appearance.

Its funny that when players on other teams get caught using PED's we Reds fans come down hard on them. But when one of our own gets caught we believe every word he says. Whether or not he used PED's to get pregnant, to recovery from an injury, or just to get ahead, he got caught.

No I am not particularly fond of the guy. I root for him when he pitches because he is a Red. He drives me nuts when he is on the mound and the base running issues were mind numbing.

Half truths or not Edinson has a history that has a considerable amount of baggage.

-This has absolutely nothing to do with Josh Hamilton. Nothing. It has to do with Edinson Volquez.

reds44
06-14-2011, 02:01 PM
This one time, I saw Will Smith shoot this guy in this one movie.

Attitude problem!

It's also funny when a guy steals money from his grandma to support his nose candy problem and people here overlook it.

American hero!

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2011, 04:05 PM
This one time, I saw Will Smith shoot this guy in this one movie.

Attitude problem!

It's also funny when a guy steals money from his grandma to support his nose candy problem and people here overlook it.

American hero!

If this were Facebook, I would 'like' this post.

CTA513
06-14-2011, 04:15 PM
Volquez is a great pitcher.

cincrazy
06-14-2011, 04:20 PM
How is it absurd to question this guy's attitude? The Rangers hired a BABYSITTER for him, and demoted him to Class A, all due to his attitude. Is that why he's struggled this year? I don't know, I can't say for sure. But he can't use the elbow injury as an excuse anymore. He is what he is. Supposedly "great" stuff without the ability to consistently control it.

reds44
06-14-2011, 04:34 PM
How is it absurd to question this guy's attitude? The Rangers hired a BABYSITTER for him, and demoted him to Class A, all due to his attitude. Is that why he's struggled this year? I don't know, I can't say for sure. But he can't use the elbow injury as an excuse anymore. He is what he is. Supposedly "great" stuff without the ability to consistently control it.
The Reds hired a BABYSITTER for Josh Hamilton, in fact, the Rangers took his BABYSITTER with him when he was traded.

Now does anybody care? No, because he's good at baseball. Which is exactly the point, stick to baseball.

Just because somebody has control problems does not mean they have attitude problems. They literally have nothing to do with each other.

reds44
06-14-2011, 04:41 PM
It's funny, there is a pitcher who has been in trouble with the law before on the staff, and it's not Volquez. There's a pitcher on the staff who criticized his catchers on the way to AAA, yet that barely ever gets talked about.

So why is it everytime Volquez struggles it's because of attitude and everytime Leake struggles nobody brings it up?

Flashing a gun in a music video and he can't play for you but shop lifting is okay? Yeah, I'm completely aware Leake got off with a slap on the wrist, but Volquez (as far as I know) has never been charged with a crime in his life.

Look I gave up on defending Volquez as a baseball pitcher. He's been my biggest dissapointment this year, but make. the. character. stuff. stop. Yes he's a free spirit and what happend in San Fran was bone headed, but is he a bad guy or a clubhouse cancer or anything even close to those? As far as anybody can tell, not at all.

Reds Freak
06-14-2011, 04:47 PM
The Reds hired a BABYSITTER for Josh Hamilton, in fact, the Rangers took his BABYSITTER with him when he was traded.

Now does anybody care? No, because he's good at baseball. Which is exactly the point, stick to baseball.

Just because somebody has control problems does not mean they have attitude problems. They literally have nothing to do with each other.

Josh Hamilton had a drug problem, Edinson Volquez had (has?) an attitude problem. The Rangers wouldn't have demoted him to A-ball, required he cut his hair, develop detailed, written pitching plans for each start, chart every other pitcher on the staff, have daily meetings with coaches, etc. if he hadn't had attitude issues at some point. Do they do those same things with every one of their prospects? I'm not saying Volquez is a bad guy, but he's had an attitude problem in the past and it's possible those issues still exist.

I agree, let's stick to baseball. Josh Hamilton has proved he's good at baseball. Has Volquez? I think the book is still out.

Control problems doesn't necessarily equal an attitude problem but it can. All we heard about Homer Bailey from 2005-08 was that he was stubborn, uncoachable, etc. and he was wild and couldn't consistently find the strike zone. Now he has changed his attitude and focus and his control has drastically improved. Coincidence?

reds44
06-14-2011, 04:49 PM
Have you heard anything negative about Edinson Volquez as a player or teammate or listener since he came to the Reds?

The correct answer is no.

If Edinson Volquez has an attitude problem, what does Mike Leake have? Long hair, shop lifting, ripping on your catchers.

CTA513
06-14-2011, 04:49 PM
It's funny, there is a pitcher who has been in trouble with the law before on the staff, and it's not Volquez. There's a pitcher on the staff who criticized his catchers on the way to AAA, yet that barely ever gets talked about.

So why is it everytime Volquez struggles it's because of attitude and everytime Leake struggles nobody brings it up?

Flashing a gun in a music video and he can't play for you but shop lifting is okay? Yeah, I'm completely aware Leake got off with a slap on the wrist, but Volquez (as far as I know) has never been charged with a crime in his life.

Look I gave up on defending Volquez as a baseball pitcher. He's been my biggest dissapointment this year, but make. the. character. stuff. stop. Yes he's a free spirit and what happend in San Fran was bone headed, but is he a bad guy or a clubhouse cancer or anything even close to those? As far as anybody can tell, not at all.

When Leake struggles I hear its because hes immature.

CTA513
06-14-2011, 04:50 PM
Have you heard anything negative about Edinson Volquez as a player or teammate or listener since he came to the Reds?

The correct answer is no.

I heard he couldn't pass a drug test.

;)

reds44
06-14-2011, 04:51 PM
When Leake struggles I hear its because hes immature.
I have never heard that anywhere, all anyone talked about pre-Macy's was how mature he was for his age.

When he struggles it's because of his stuff (according to here, at least).

bucksfan2
06-14-2011, 04:54 PM
It's funny, there is a pitcher who has been in trouble with the law before on the staff, and it's not Volquez. There's a pitcher on the staff who criticized his catchers on the way to AAA, yet that barely ever gets talked about.

So why is it everytime Volquez struggles it's because of attitude and everytime Leake struggles nobody brings it up?

Flashing a gun in a music video and he can't play for you but shop lifting is okay? Yeah, I'm completely aware Leake got off with a slap on the wrist, but Volquez (as far as I know) has never been charged with a crime in his life.

Look I gave up on defending Volquez as a baseball pitcher. He's been my biggest dissapointment this year, but make. the. character. stuff. stop. Yes he's a free spirit and what happend in San Fran was bone headed, but is he a bad guy or a clubhouse cancer or anything even close to those? As far as anybody can tell, not at all.

Said pitcher got sent down to AAA. You could argue that it was undeserving because two bad outings skewed his numbers. Said pitcher also rarely gets the recognition and credit he deserves because he doesn't throw a 95 MPH heater or have a 12-6 curve. Said pitcher pitches and has probably been the MVP of the staff this season.

Volquez has been a big disappointment and the stuff that happened in San Francisco hurt the team. The character issues happened in the past and they may be behind him, who knows. The problem that I have is he had to be sent down to AAA in order to get issues under control. He wasn't sent down to AAA to work on his stuff, he was sent down to work on issues like focus and throwing strikes. Thats the troubling aspect for me. We are now 3 years into the Edinson Volquez experiment and we are still worrying about him being focused on the mound.

reds44
06-14-2011, 04:59 PM
Said pitcher got sent down to AAA. You could argue that it was undeserving because two bad outings skewed his numbers. Said pitcher also rarely gets the recognition and credit he deserves because he doesn't throw a 95 MPH heater or have a 12-6 curve. Said pitcher pitches and has probably been the MVP of the staff this season.

Volquez has been a big disappointment and the stuff that happened in San Francisco hurt the team. The character issues happened in the past and they may be behind him, who knows. The problem that I have is he had to be sent down to AAA in order to get issues under control. He wasn't sent down to AAA to work on his stuff, he was sent down to work on issues like focus and throwing strikes. Thats the troubling aspect for me. We are now 3 years into the Edinson Volquez experiment and we are still worrying about him being focused on the mound.
When Leake skipped the minors and was pitching well he got nothing but love from everyone. Then he couldn't get anybody out and he stopped getting credit. Then he had an ERA over 5 for a long time this season and got sent down because of it. Now, he's pitching well, and everybody (including myself) like him. Also, Cueto is the MVP of the staff, but that's besides the point.

He was sent to AAA to try to work on controlling his fastball. THAT'S WHAT WORKING ON STUFF IS. It's the same reason Chapman is down there right now, and people are already starting to fabricate andattitude problem with him.

JUST BECAUSE YOU STRUGGLE TO THROW STRIKES DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE AN ATTITUDE PROBLEM. If that's true, Rick Ankiel must be a real S.O.B

I wish this thread was about preformance, but it's not. Just say he's been bad and move on with it. Stop making up crap to try to grind an axe with him.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 04:59 PM
Said pitcher pitches and has probably been the MVP of the staff this season.

In short he's the cutest pug in the litter, but they've all been pretty ugly.



the stuff that happened in San Francisco hurt the team.


The fact that the man has been on 2nd base TWO times in MLB career probably had something to do with that, but everyone expects him to run the bases like Lou freaking Brock

Brutus
06-14-2011, 05:01 PM
In short he's the cutest pug in the litter, but they've all been pretty ugly.



The fact that the man has been on 2nd base TWO times in MLB career probably had something to do with that, but everyone expects him to run the bases like Lou freaking Brock

If running the bases like Lou Brock means knowing you should look at your third base coach when rounding the bases, there are millions of young little Brocks running the bases in Little League.

That's child's play. Every Major Leaguer knows those basic fundamentals. It's not rocket science.

reds44
06-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Volquez is 2/2 in QS since coming off the DL and yet we're sitting here talking about his baserunning.

That's all you need to know.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 05:07 PM
If running the bases like Lou Brock means knowing you should look at your third base coach when rounding the bases, there are millions of young little Brocks running the bases in Little League.

That's child's play. Every Major Leaguer knows those basic fundamentals. It's not rocket science.
People get picked off, Stubbs does, Rose did, Morgan, Bench, Henderson did.

Brandon Phillips did while talking to the other teams SS this season, hardly caused the firestorm like the pitcher who got picked off on a throw from LF that was not a routine catch (IIRC Ross caught the ball with his back to the base)

Brutus
06-14-2011, 05:14 PM
People get picked off, Stubbs does, Rose did, Morgan, Bench, Henderson did.

Brandon Phillips did while talking to the other teams SS this season, hardly caused the firestorm like the pitcher who got picked off on a throw from LF that was not a routine catch (IIRC Ross caught the ball with his back to the base)

I'm not sure what your point is. That everyone makes baserunning mistakes? That doesn't seem to be in dispute.

But those guys sure take a lot of flack when they make those snafus, whether it's because of fundamentals, not paying attention or simply getting too big a lead. But when someone makes two very, very simple fundamental mistakes in one inning, ones that every little leaguer has learned, I don't see why it's suddenly taboo to criticize.

Scrap Irony
06-14-2011, 05:19 PM
Criticism is fine, Brutus.

Making up possible attitude problems or "hating" because of his cultural differences smacks of poor logic, something much of Redszone has historically railed against.

I(heart)Freel
06-14-2011, 05:27 PM
Thom B said on the national game broadcast that Volquez was sent down, in part, because of some attitude problems but that he took it like a man and went down and did what was asked of him. He used the word "attitude."

Votto and Stubbs were visibly upset at their teammate. I'm not sure why they can be and we on a message board can not. It was upsetting. Is it the end of the world? Of course not. Is that reason to designate him or think less of him as a pitcher? No. But he didn't help his team win that night, which means he didn't help the team I root for, which means I was upset at him.

It can be just that. Nothing more.

Brutus
06-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Criticism is fine, Brutus.

Making up possible attitude problems or "hating" because of his cultural differences smacks of poor logic, something much of Redszone has historically railed against.

Nothing in my post or WOY's post had anything to do with attitude though. I was responding directly to the idea that expecting him to know the most simple of baserunning fundamentals doesn't mean expecting him to be perfect.

Scrap Irony
06-14-2011, 05:32 PM
Incessant, biased, baseless criticism is what woy's railing against, Brutus.

You also mentioned that it's "suddeny taboo to criticize".

Again, criticism is fine. The problem is incessant, baseless criticism. Like the crap about his supposed poor attitude or mental shortcomings.

CTA513
06-14-2011, 05:39 PM
If his attitude problem isn't true then people should be getting upset with Thom and the Reds.

Brutus
06-14-2011, 05:42 PM
Incessant, biased, baseless criticism is what woy's railing against, Brutus.

You also mentioned that it's "suddeny taboo to criticize".

Again, criticism is fine. The problem is incessant, baseless criticism. Like the crap about his supposed poor attitude or mental shortcomings.

What specifically about this post:


The fact that the man has been on 2nd base TWO times in MLB career probably had something to do with that, but everyone expects him to run the bases like Lou freaking Brock

Is referring to incessant, biased, baseless criticism?

All I see in that is that "everyone" expects him to run the bases like Lou Brock. I'm not seeing anything about being incessant, biased or baseless. I only see the justification that it's expecting him to run the bases like Lou Brock because he'd only been past first base twice previously/

I'm not seeing it. I simply see a direct stance being taken against criticizing Volquez for his baserunning mistakes.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 05:53 PM
I'm not seeing it. I simply see a direct stance being taken against criticizing Volquez for his baserunning mistakes.

Yep, I think criticizing him for a mistake on the bases is child's play myself.

He's a hurler, base running to him is like hitting is to Harang, something that is likely to turn out bad more often than not.

Nature of the professional game, not HS , not knothole, not my backyard wiffleball field but the game on TV at night.

Personally I'm more worried about his strike/ball ratio, shoot I'm more worried about the little ingrown hairs on his scalp than his base running gaffes.

westofyou
06-14-2011, 06:00 PM
The charm of baseball is that, dull as it may be on the field, it is endlessly fascinating as a rehash. ~Jim Murray

pedro
06-14-2011, 06:01 PM
If his attitude problem isn't true then people should be getting upset with Thom and the Reds.

Thom is a jerk.

Brutus
06-14-2011, 06:20 PM
Yep, I think criticizing him for a mistake on the bases is child's play myself.

He's a hurler, base running to him is like hitting is to Harang, something that is likely to turn out bad more often than not.

Nature of the professional game, not HS , not knothole, not my backyard wiffleball field but the game on TV at night.

Personally I'm more worried about his strike/ball ratio, shoot I'm more worried about the little ingrown hairs on his scalp than his base running gaffes.

Simple fundamentals are just that. Major League Baseball players have no excuse for not knowing something so simple. That's not a testament to his attitude, his attire, his hair or anything else. Those very basic fundamentals are ones that every player should know. That's the nature of the professional game -- to be an advanced baseball player.

edabbs44
06-15-2011, 08:59 AM
Yep, I think criticizing him for a mistake on the bases is child's play myself.

He's a hurler, base running to him is like hitting is to Harang, something that is likely to turn out bad more often than not.

Nature of the professional game, not HS , not knothole, not my backyard wiffleball field but the game on TV at night.

Personally I'm more worried about his strike/ball ratio, shoot I'm more worried about the little ingrown hairs on his scalp than his base running gaffes.

Baserunning, backing up 3rd or home and knowing how to bunt are all things that are secondary to pitching and that don't really seem to matter until they do. Harang's issues with hitting were likely because he physically could not hit a professional pitcher. Can Volquez physically not run the bases?

I don't get why we can't expect a pitcher to give baserunning his attention while on the field.
Is it wrong to expect a pro to try and run the bases the right way? Votto seemed tothink it is a fair expectation.

No one is saying that Volquez should give up on pitching to become a professional pinch runner. But if his baserunning skills are so poor and lackingthat the play the other night was SOP for him, then I think we have identified an area for him to work on.

Caveman Techie
06-15-2011, 09:57 AM
Base running is a skill that unless practiced is not mastered. I for one don't want to lose any pitchers to pulled hamstrings or broken fingers/ankles (sliding) while practicing a part of the game that they will use sparingly. Did Volquez mess up on the basepaths, yes. Should we hold him to the same standard we hold a position player to, no.

jojo
06-15-2011, 11:20 AM
No one is saying that Volquez should give up on pitching to become a professional pinch runner. But if his baserunning skills are so poor and lackingthat the play the other night was SOP for him, then I think we have identified an area for him to work on.

I prefer Volquez works on his command 25 hrs a day. He can use whatever time is left over for working on his base running.

Roy Tucker
06-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Actually, thinking about this a little bit, I'd put some blame on Billy Hatcher. As 1B coach, you need to realize you have an inexperienced and potentially an idiot baserunner standing next to you. Mitigate your risk.

Review the situation, cover a couple scenarios (use small words and short sentences), and tell him to *listen* to him and *watch* for the 3B coach.

You'd think these guys are pros and you wouldn't need to do this, but we're all imperfect carbon-based units and prone to failure and MLB'ers are no different.

The Voice of IH
06-15-2011, 12:07 PM
No first base coach should have the responsibility of reminding a base runner to pick up the third base coach when rounding second. I remember my coach doing that, when I was in first grade.

And I looked at him like "no duh"

westofyou
06-15-2011, 12:15 PM
No first base coach should have the responsibility of reminding a base runner to pick up the third base coach when rounding second. I remember my coach doing that, when I was in first grade.

And I looked at him like "no duh"

Actually that's his job, the 1st base coach has the easiest job on the staff, it has the lowest impact on the games flow due to where he stands, if he's not suppose to introduce every possible scenario to a runner (and that includes gauging who the runner is and what his experience on the base paths is) then what does he draw a check for every week?

Butt pats and attaboys?

traderumor
06-15-2011, 12:19 PM
Baserunning, backing up 3rd or home and knowing how to bunt are all things that are secondary to pitching and that don't really seem to matter until they do. Harang's issues with hitting were likely because he physically could not hit a professional pitcher. Can Volquez physically not run the bases?

I don't get why we can't expect a pitcher to give baserunning his attention while on the field.
Is it wrong to expect a pro to try and run the bases the right way? Votto seemed tothink it is a fair expectation.

No one is saying that Volquez should give up on pitching to become a professional pinch runner. But if his baserunning skills are so poor and lackingthat the play the other night was SOP for him, then I think we have identified an area for him to work on.
Some orgs. major in minors while neglecting the big stuff. I'm glad the Reds don't seem to be one of those these days. There was a time when they probably would have made him run laps for his gaffes. Thank goodness the org. is past that. Obviously, some fans aren't yet over the hero worship of "doing the little things right" that are really just nitpicking at best. Its like the lady from the Board of Ed. worrying about how I held a pencil even though I was a straight A student.

cincrazy
06-15-2011, 12:40 PM
It's funny, there is a pitcher who has been in trouble with the law before on the staff, and it's not Volquez. There's a pitcher on the staff who criticized his catchers on the way to AAA, yet that barely ever gets talked about.

So why is it everytime Volquez struggles it's because of attitude and everytime Leake struggles nobody brings it up?

Flashing a gun in a music video and he can't play for you but shop lifting is okay? Yeah, I'm completely aware Leake got off with a slap on the wrist, but Volquez (as far as I know) has never been charged with a crime in his life.

Look I gave up on defending Volquez as a baseball pitcher. He's been my biggest dissapointment this year, but make. the. character. stuff. stop. Yes he's a free spirit and what happend in San Fran was bone headed, but is he a bad guy or a clubhouse cancer or anything even close to those? As far as anybody can tell, not at all.

Did I say he was a bad guy? Or a clubhouse cancer? Don't take my words out of context. His attitude problems have been well documented by people WITHIN the game. I'm not making this stuff up on the fly, nor is anyone else. This discussion isn't about Leake or anyone else, what does that have to do with anything?

You have your opinion, I have mine. If you think he doesn't have attitude problems, fine, I respect that. But I don't appreciate being belittled.

edabbs44
06-15-2011, 01:09 PM
I prefer Volquez works on his command 25 hrs a day. He can use whatever time is left over for working on his base running.


Some orgs. major in minors while neglecting the big stuff. I'm glad the Reds don't seem to be one of those these days. There was a time when they probably would have made him run laps for his gaffes. Thank goodness the org. is past that. Obviously, some fans aren't yet over the hero worship of "doing the little things right" that are really just nitpicking at best. Its like the lady from the Board of Ed. worrying about how I held a pencil even though I was a straight A student.

Volquez's gaffe had a result that potentially affected the outcome of the game. If the way you held your pencil directly affected your grades in a negative way, then she was correct.

kaldaniels
06-15-2011, 01:14 PM
The baserunning error did affect that game.

But is it a huge focus going forward? I would say no.

edabbs44
06-15-2011, 01:33 PM
The baserunning error did affect that game.

But is it a huge focus going forward? I would say no.

Not a huge focus, but I'm not sure that it has to be. His quotes make me think that he got the message and will be thinking about baserunning. The gaffe could have been experience related or it could have been him just not paying that much attention. Either way I think he will be thinking about baserunning more in the future.

kaldaniels
06-15-2011, 01:49 PM
Not a huge focus, but I'm not sure that it has to be. His quotes make me think that he got the message and will be thinking about baserunning. The gaffe could have been experience related or it could have been him just not paying that much attention. Either way I think he will be thinking about baserunning more in the future.

And that's all I expect.

traderumor
06-15-2011, 01:53 PM
Volquez's gaffe had a result that potentially affected the outcome of the game. If the way you held your pencil directly affected your grades in a negative way, then she was correct.Did you miss the part that I was a straight A student? Volquez job is to pitch, that's what he gets paid for. If he is a bully baserunner, then it is value added, but it is certainly not an essential component of whether or not he is an excellent pitcher, which it is his job to focus on. That is the point that seems to be the dividing line here between sides.

Roy Tucker
06-15-2011, 02:03 PM
Just my opinion, but I'd say an NL pitcher's overall worth is something like 95-99% of how well he pitches. Some small portion (1-5% or something in that range) is how well he hits, how well he gets a bunt down, how well he fields, and how well he runs the bases.

If a guy can handle the bat, field his position, and be trusted to be reasonably competent on the bases, it can only help his case. Certainl;y they need to focus on pitching, but these other things need a little attention too.

traderumor
06-15-2011, 03:18 PM
Just my opinion, but I'd say an NL pitcher's overall worth is something like 95-99% of how well he pitches. Some small portion (1-5% or something in that range) is how well he hits, how well he gets a bunt down, how well he fields, and how well he runs the bases.

If a guy can handle the bat, field his position, and be trusted to be reasonably competent on the bases, it can only help his case. Certainl;y they need to focus on pitching, but these other things need a little attention too.I'd go for 1%, or some fraction thereof ;)

TRF
06-15-2011, 03:22 PM
If volqez last name were halladay, this isn't a discussion.

It was a mistake. One he's now had the potential to make twice in his career.

Why we are arguing about this is beyond me.

traderumor
06-15-2011, 03:28 PM
If volqez last name were halladay, this isn't a discussion.

It was a mistake. One he's now had the potential to make twice in his career.

Why we are arguing about this is beyond me.Because we're bored and entrenched in our baseball worldview?

Superdude
06-15-2011, 03:41 PM
The baserunning error did affect that game.

But is it a huge focus going forward? I would say no.

Exactly. Why are we still talking about something that has zero future significance?

Roy Tucker
06-15-2011, 04:29 PM
Exactly. Why are we still talking about something that has zero future significance?

We are RedsZone. It's what we do.

Mountains out of molehills 'R Us.

;)

reds44
06-22-2011, 03:44 PM
Curious, is Jay Bruce lazy and dumb and have a bad attitude?

CTA513
06-22-2011, 03:48 PM
No

:D

Superdude
06-22-2011, 08:03 PM
Curious, is Jay Bruce lazy and dumb and have a bad attitude?

He has been known to have some pretty shaggy hair in the past.