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View Full Version : Expect to see the Reds all over the next wave of rumors



I(heart)Freel
06-08-2011, 10:37 AM
San Jose Mercury News (via MLB Trade Rumors) says the Giants are ramping up efforts to get a receiver.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/06/giants-continue-eyeing-catchers.html

Sounds like they want the trade target to be a good pitch caller/defender as much as a good bat.

Talks have to involve Ramon, right?

And mid June has to be a good date to hopefully avoid Mes' super two status, right?

Anyone know the Giants organization well enough to suggest a fair or hopeful return on such a deal?

edabbs44
06-08-2011, 10:39 AM
Giants need a receiver? I thought, with the emergence of Manningham, they were fairly deep there?

Homer Bailey
06-08-2011, 10:41 AM
Giants need a receiver? I thought, with the emergence of Manningham, they were fairly deep there?

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/plaxico-burress-interview.jpg?w=420&h=466

HotCorner
06-08-2011, 10:49 AM
Ramon for Eric Surkamp?

OesterPoster
06-08-2011, 10:57 AM
Ramon for Eric Surkamp?

Haha. Exact same guy I was going to suggest. Cincinnati kid, lefty starting pitcher, putting up pretty darn good numbers in AA.

Guacarock
06-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Eric Surkamp makes a lot of sense as a Reds trade target from the Giants. Check out his Twitter channel. He's "here to drop some knowledge on you."

http://twitter.com/#!/esurkamp

I(heart)Freel
06-08-2011, 11:16 AM
Haha. Exact same guy I was going to suggest. Cincinnati kid, lefty starting pitcher, putting up pretty darn good numbers in AA.

GCL kid. Nice.

Adding a pitcher deepens the system a little more for a bigger-splash deadline deal too. I don't think I'd be opposed to this idea at all.

Seems like this is exactly the Reds' long-term plan. Wait until a prospect is truly MLB-ready, trade the vet that's blocking him, add system depth and call up the prospect*. Lather, rinse and repeat.


EDIT: * Noted exception includes Votto, Joey.

757690
06-08-2011, 11:25 AM
Jose Cassila and Jorge Bucardo are two power arms with good sinkers. Either one would fit GAPB.

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 12:06 PM
I think the Reds are HIGHLY unlikely to deal a catcher during the season if still in the race. It makes sense if you're running a stratomatic team, but catchers are so involved with the pitching staff, that it's pretty disruptive to make a change there. And you're talking about trading the guy who has handled our young, Spanish-speaking pitchers and who would leave us without a Spanish-speaking catcher. I know a trade is Jocketty's call, but he seems to value being on the same page as Dusty and I don't think Dusty would dare risk rocking the boat that much.

Homer Bailey
06-08-2011, 12:21 PM
I think the Reds are HIGHLY unlikely to deal a catcher during the season if still in the race. It makes sense if you're running a stratomatic team, but catchers are so involved with the pitching staff, that it's pretty disruptive to make a change there. And you're talking about trading the guy who has handled our young, Spanish-speaking pitchers and who would leave us without a Spanish-speaking catcher. I know a trade is Jocketty's call, but he seems to value being on the same page as Dusty and I don't think Dusty would dare risk rocking the boat that much.

Agree 100%.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-08-2011, 12:29 PM
I think the Reds are HIGHLY unlikely to deal a catcher during the season if still in the race. It makes sense if you're running a stratomatic team, but catchers are so involved with the pitching staff, that it's pretty disruptive to make a change there. And you're talking about trading the guy who has handled our young, Spanish-speaking pitchers and who would leave us without a Spanish-speaking catcher. I know a trade is Jocketty's call, but he seems to value being on the same page as Dusty and I don't think Dusty would dare risk rocking the boat that much.

The Giants traded their everyday starting catcher midway through the season last year, brought up an inexperienced rookie and, well ... won the World Series.

It can be done.

edabbs44
06-08-2011, 12:31 PM
I think the Reds are HIGHLY unlikely to deal a catcher during the season if still in the race. It makes sense if you're running a stratomatic team, but catchers are so involved with the pitching staff, that it's pretty disruptive to make a change there. And you're talking about trading the guy who has handled our young, Spanish-speaking pitchers and who would leave us without a Spanish-speaking catcher. I know a trade is Jocketty's call, but he seems to value being on the same page as Dusty and I don't think Dusty would dare risk rocking the boat that much.

What about dealing Hanigan?

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 12:46 PM
The Giants traded their everyday starting catcher midway through the season last year, brought up an inexperienced rookie and, well ... won the World Series.

It can be done.

A.) Their starting catcher was hitting .257/.312/.332
B.) Their starting rotation was not full of guys who barely spoke English

Can it be done? Sure. I never suggested it couldn't. I suggested it wouldn't. Apples and Oranges.

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 12:47 PM
What about dealing Hanigan?

I think it's more likely than Hernandez. But I also think the Reds want to keep him around as the 2nd catcher given his defensive skills and friendly contract.

I don't think they see using Hernandez as the backup to Mes as an option. And I don't think they want to bring up Mes as the 2nd catcher.

Ghosts of 1990
06-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Would any of you have any interest in Tejada? or the Brandon Crawford kid?

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 12:59 PM
Would any of you have any interest in Tejada? or the Brandon Crawford kid?

Paul Janish is out-hitting Miguel Tejada.

medford
06-08-2011, 12:59 PM
A.) Their starting catcher was hitting .257/.312/.332
B.) Their starting rotation was not full of guys who barely spoke English

Can it be done? Sure. I never suggested it couldn't. I suggested it wouldn't. Apples and Oranges.

Bailey, Arroyo, Woods, Leake, Cueto, Volquez, Coco, Bray, Massett, Smith, Fisher, Ondrusek, ect.. all speak English well.

Arrayondo I don't know about.

Chapman obviously struggles, at least when speaking to the media, he may be more comfortable with teammates than speaking to the media.

The ability to speak Spanish should not be a consideration, how hard is it to translate "throw hard, hit my glove"? In fact I think its often overblown, and for all we know, Mes took spanish is high school, and is profiecient enought to communicate w/ a spanish teammate about throwing strikes and calming down.

If there is a good deal, one that makes sense from the Reds side of thing on the table, and the Reds pass b/c Hernandez can speak English to Chapman and possibly Arradondo, well then that's stupid management. If they pass b/c the view hernanigan as a key part of the team and don't want to mess with that aspect, unless getting serious value in return, so be it, but I'm pretty sure Hannigan has cought Chapmann more than once.

The Voice of IH
06-08-2011, 01:04 PM
If Hernadez biggest asset to this team is speaking Spanish, then I would have no problem trading him. What is more important is Mes being ready for the Majors. Without him, a trade would be bad. With him, I would like to see it.

RedsManRick
06-08-2011, 01:07 PM
Bailey, Arroyo, Woods, Leake, Cueto, Volquez, Coco, Bray, Massett, Smith, Fisher, Ondrusek, ect.. all speak English well.

Arrayondo I don't know about.

Chapman obviously struggles, at least when speaking to the media, he may be more comfortable with teammates than speaking to the media.

The ability to speak Spanish should not be a consideration, how hard is it to translate "throw hard, hit my glove"? In fact I think its often overblown, and for all we know, Mes took spanish is high school, and is profiecient enought to communicate w/ a spanish teammate about throwing strikes and calming down.

If there is a good deal, one that makes sense from the Reds side of thing on the table, and the Reds pass b/c Hernandez can speak English to Chapman and possibly Arradondo, well then that's stupid management. If they pass b/c the view hernanigan as a key part of the team and don't want to mess with that aspect, unless getting serious value in return, so be it, but I'm pretty sure Hannigan has cought Chapmann more than once.

I know I'm often the one touting the stats, but I would not be one to downplay the importance of the catcher-pitcher relationship. Perhaps using language speaking ability is a poor proxy for that, but I'll defer to management's understanding in that area and they seem to highly value Herandnez in that arena.

And, oh, he's hitting .312/.374/.528. Mes may be the future, but it's really hard to be dissatisfied with the present. Trading a .640 OPS Bengie Molina is a very different proposition than trading a .900 OPS Hernandez.

REDREAD
06-08-2011, 01:46 PM
I think we are way overestimating what Hernandez or Hannigan would fetch in a trade.

I really don't want to disrupt the team now, just to pick up a prospect.
There's no rush to call up Mes. Even if he's ready now, he can finish the year in AAA, it won't stunt his development.

Catching is a strength on the Reds' team. It sends the wrong message to trade an established catcher to a rival (SF) at this point and call up a rookie.
I think it would also cost us games, especially if we got a catching injury.
Nice to have Mes as depth.

Maybe next year, we can try out Mes.

traderumor
06-08-2011, 01:54 PM
I get the pitcher/catcher relationship issue. I don't think language barrier should be a consideration. I'm not sure there is enough value added to make that a deal breaker. Plus, Bryan Price speaks Spanish.

With that said, I would not be surprised to see Ramon go in a deadline deal, but that is going to depend on where the Reds are.

LoganBuck
06-08-2011, 01:56 PM
I agree with RMR, but with one caveat. I would move him, if they gave me a serious prospect in return. Surkamp would likely qualify. The Reds aren't some shoe in to win this year. This team needs to build for now and the future. Once the season ends, Ramon Hernandez is gone anyway. Lets not act like he is a cornerstone. Mesoraco and Grandal are the future.

Caveat Emperor
06-08-2011, 02:47 PM
I agree with RMR, but with one caveat. I would move him, if they gave me a serious prospect in return. Surkamp would likely qualify. The Reds aren't some shoe in to win this year. This team needs to build for now and the future. Once the season ends, Ramon Hernandez is gone anyway. Lets not act like he is a cornerstone. Mesoraco and Grandal are the future.

Agreed. I wouldn't be looking to deal Hernandez, but if the right deal came along that brought back long-term value in return, I'd have no problem shipping him out.

The Voice of IH
06-08-2011, 02:54 PM
Rumor has it that the Reds will have a lot of rumors around them.

bellhead
06-08-2011, 03:20 PM
Deal Hannigan for an A type prospect only.

Ramon is needed here for the year. Devin meanwhile is killing AAA.

Benihana
06-08-2011, 03:35 PM
I would trade Ramon Hernandez to the Giants for Eric Surkamp. I would trade Hanigan for Surkamp and Brandon Crawford, but my guess is with Posey coming back they'd be more interested in Ramon.

I would not trade either for much less than that, especially considering SF has one of the least talented farm systems according to BA.

Kc61
06-08-2011, 03:43 PM
How about some trades for established talent?

Are we rebuilding again?

edabbs44
06-08-2011, 03:50 PM
How about some trades for established talent?

Are we rebuilding again?

Typically, prospects get dealt for vets and vice versa. The only established guys I could see Cincy getting for a catcher would be a bullpen arm.

And SF has some productive ones.

I(heart)Freel
06-08-2011, 04:20 PM
I'm of the mindset that Mes is ready for the majors.

I'm also of the mindset that the Giants could be willing to "overpay" for someone like Ramon.

I'm equally thinking the Reds won't offer Ramon arbitration in the off-season, so this would likely be the only way to get something for his leaving.

I'll additionally suggest that I think this is the way clubs who rely on their farm system to produce should operate (i.e. get something for a vet when there is a prospect who is ready to produce at or near the vet's level).

I hear and respect those who believe the catcher position is extra-special and should be handled with kid-gloves during a season, but I would offer that (in this scenario) Hanigan would be here for the consistency and to operate as a safety net in case Mes looks over-matched early.

jojo
06-08-2011, 05:27 PM
If the Reds are in the race, I would be surprised if they dealt one of their catchers.

Griffey012
06-08-2011, 11:40 PM
I would be highly disappointed to see Ramon go...especially with Hanigan not tearing the cover off the ball at all this season. Our catching tandem has been a strength of ours, why mess with it? Lets fix something that is broke, like LF, SS, or a backup 3B.

corkedbat
06-09-2011, 12:21 AM
I would be highly disappointed to see Ramon go...especially with Hanigan not tearing the cover off the ball at all this season. Our catching tandem has been a strength of ours, why mess with it? Lets fix something that is broke, like LF, SS, or a backup 3B.

As long as our catching tandem is performing well, I'm content to stya the course. If someone were to be desparate and offer something VERY tempting, I'd make the deal. I would not hesitate to bring Mes up.

Griffey012
06-09-2011, 12:25 AM
As long as our catching tandem is performing well, I'm content to stya the course. If someone were to be desparate and offer something VERY tempting, I'd make the deal. I would not hesitate to bring Mes up.

Like Carlos Santana for Casey Blake? Let's call up the Dodgers...(Kemp)

RED VAN HOT
06-09-2011, 12:44 AM
Interesting discussion.

What is the rule on compensation picks? Do the Reds need to offer Hernandez arbitration after the season and he in turn refuse it? I suspect that the possibility of draft compensation must be weighed for both the Reds if they keep him all season and the Giants if they trade for him.

I see Mez and Hernandez as the catching duo next year. If the Reds keep Hernandez through the end of the season, they could end up with nothing or they could get draft compensation. OTOH, they need starting pitching prospects at AA or above. The draft did not appear to solve that problem. Tough call.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-09-2011, 01:22 AM
I'm of the mindset that Mes is ready for the majors.

I'm also of the mindset that the Giants could be willing to "overpay" for someone like Ramon.

I'm equally thinking the Reds won't offer Ramon arbitration in the off-season, so this would likely be the only way to get something for his leaving.

I'll additionally suggest that I think this is the way clubs who rely on their farm system to produce should operate (i.e. get something for a vet when there is a prospect who is ready to produce at or near the vet's level).

I hear and respect those who believe the catcher position is extra-special and should be handled with kid-gloves during a season, but I would offer that (in this scenario) Hanigan would be here for the consistency and to operate as a safety net in case Mes looks over-matched early.

I agree with this.

Sell Ramon while his stock his high. We are loaded at this position. Yes, we are.

mth123
06-09-2011, 01:44 AM
One thing to consider is that Ramon's MO for the last 5 years has been a low-to-mid .700's OPS. He currently sits a hair over .900. He may be in for a long dry spell soon. If selling fills a hole while saving some cash to allow the Reds to fill another and opening up a spot for Mes, it might be a move that paves the way for an upgrade in three spots (the guy they get for Ramon, the guy they get using Ramon's salary slot and Mes instead of Ramon's regression period behind the plate).

Superdude
06-09-2011, 01:44 AM
I'd be all for dealing Hernandez if the right move came along. I just don't see Mesoraco flopping at this point. The guy can clearly swing the bat and I'm assuming his defense is at least average by now. Bring him up if somebody's desperate enough to overpay for Hernandez's unsustainable first half.

Superdude
06-09-2011, 01:51 AM
(the guy they get for Ramon, the guy they get using Ramon's salary slot and Mes instead of Ramon's regression period behind the plate).

Hernandez is still likely to be a good to great hitting catcher even after he cools off. Regression doesn't mean sucking until your season numbers normalize back to career averages.

Ron Madden
06-09-2011, 03:22 AM
I agree with RMR, but with one caveat. I would move him, if they gave me a serious prospect in return. Surkamp would likely qualify. The Reds aren't some shoe in to win this year. This team needs to build for now and the future. Once the season ends, Ramon Hernandez is gone anyway. Lets not act like he is a cornerstone. Mesoraco and Grandal are the future.

I'm in 100% agreement with this post.

jojo
06-09-2011, 06:06 AM
Hernandez is still likely to be a good to great hitting catcher even after he cools off. Regression doesn't mean sucking until your season numbers normalize back to career averages.

My bet for Ramon is that barring injury he'll be a slightly below average hitter the rest of the way. In other words, as you suggest regression to the mean implies he'll most likely perform to his true talent going forward, not that his past numbers and future numbers will average out to something close to his true talent (which in this case would mean he'd be very, very bad the rest of the way).

mth123
06-09-2011, 06:47 AM
I'd say if true talent level is what we'd expect, than Ramon should be in the .725 range the rest of the way. But throughout the history of baseball, guys go through hot streaks and cold streaks. They may perform to the "true talent level" most of the time, but those streaks happen as well with only the elite avoiding or keeping uber short the really cold ones. I'd expect Ramon does have a streak of sucking in his future. But even if he simply becomes that .725 guy the rest of the way, the combination of who we could get for him, the ability to use his salary and replacing him with a higher potential kid still gives the Reds the chance at a three headed improvement.

It could work out that Mesoraco falls on his face and dealing Ramon would be a mistake, but this team needs to take a shot at moving its overall talent to the next level and I just don't see them having the cash to package multiple prospects for a star. I think it will take a combination of moving some kids, some money and improving several positions to get there with some of the improvement coming from AAA. Deal Ramon plus prospects (not necessarily in the same deal) for an arm and medium sized contract in LF to hit 5th and promote Mesoraco and Cozart to boost from within.

Dan
06-09-2011, 07:21 AM
In a discussion on MLBTR, had a SF fan suggest that Sanchez could be had for Hernandez and Alonso. If that was true, I'd be all over that.

Rumor has it that despite his ERA this year, and past performance, SF fans are disenchanted with Sanchez.

Realistically, I think RH for someone like Adam Duvall (22 years old, plays 3b in A+ ball) would make sense.

buckeyenut
06-09-2011, 10:36 AM
In a discussion on MLBTR, had a SF fan suggest that Sanchez could be had for Hernandez and Alonso. If that was true, I'd be all over that.

Rumor has it that despite his ERA this year, and past performance, SF fans are disenchanted with Sanchez.

Realistically, I think RH for someone like Adam Duvall (22 years old, plays 3b in A+ ball) would make sense.
That actually might be a great deal for both teams. Their pitching is incredible and with Posey gone, they need a bat at catcher. And with the season Huff is having, Alonso could maybe play 1B right away.

Sanchez for them is a 3/4 starter, but for us, he'd be our 1 or 2, as good as our depth is. And he is young enough he could be around for a long time.

I would definitely burn alonso in a deal like this.

OesterPoster
06-09-2011, 10:57 AM
SF has a bit of a logjam when Zito comes off the DL. He makes way too much money to release, and he's probably not a bullpen guy. And with the emergence of Vogelsong, their 5 man rotation is set. What do they do with Lincecum-Cain-Sanchez-Bumgarner-Vogelsong-Zito?

Griffey012
06-09-2011, 11:07 AM
Dexter Fowler may be a guy worth targeting as well. I think his time in Colorado is pretty much up...he would at worst be a wash with Lewis but has much more upside. He is able to draw walks, his hitting just hasn't grown with his discipline. I change of scenery may jump start him again.

Will M
06-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Deal Ramon plus prospects (not necessarily in the same deal) for an arm and medium sized contract in LF to hit 5th and promote Mesoraco and Cozart to boost from within.

this is a short term plan I would support.
Mes, Cozart & Frazier (to replace Rolen) are the 3 guys I would hang on to. Everyone else could go in the right deal.

IslandRed
06-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Rumor has it that despite his ERA this year, and past performance, SF fans are disenchanted with Sanchez.

Might have something to do with leading the NL in walks last year and this year (currently sporting a 5.4 BB/9). The overall production has been there, but all those extra baserunners pitching in GABP instead of AT&T is a concern.

lollipopcurve
06-09-2011, 11:38 AM
Might have something to do with leading the NL in walks last year and this year (currently sporting a 5.4 BB/9). The overall production has been there, but all those extra baserunners pitching in GABP instead of AT&T is a concern.

Yes. Plus, I'd be surprised if SF would sacrifice starting pitching depth when they're leading a very winnable division. They're very likely going to want to peddle minor leaguers for major leaguers.

traderumor
06-09-2011, 11:59 AM
No to Sanchez, would likely get bludgeoned in GAB starts, walks makes him a lefty Volquez.

schroomytunes
06-09-2011, 06:12 PM
I'd be calling Baltimore to see about acquiring JJ Hardy!