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View Full Version : Thoughts on Ludwick for Heisey (Discussion on ORG)



5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 12:41 PM
Honestly, I'd do it. Heisey is a good 5th OF, but he's still not shown to be the LF of the future. Ludwick immediately can slide right into the #4/#5 hole and will easily OPS +.800 at GABP..not to mention he will want to exact some revenge on St Louis for giving him up for Jake effing Westbrook.

mrherd05
06-09-2011, 12:49 PM
Why would they want Heisey, they are shipping out Ludwick to make room for young outfielders?

5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 12:57 PM
Why would they want Heisey, they are shipping out Ludwick to make room for young outfielders?

No idea, that's apparently what Hal McCoy is saying

Who Dey Time
06-09-2011, 12:59 PM
I don't see how or why the Padres would do Ludwick for Heisey straight up. There would, IMO, have to be another young player involved for San Diego to even consider the deal.

That and the fact that Ludwick is a free agent after the season leads me to believe that it might not be the best deal unless they could lock Ludwick up after 2011.

5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't see how or why the Padres would do Ludwick for Heisey straight up. There would, IMO, have to be another young player involved for San Diego to even consider the deal.

That and the fact that Ludwick is a free agent after the season leads me to believe that it might not be the best deal unless they could lock Ludwick up after 2011.

He's only due $4.4 mil for the rest of the year...I think if SD is willing to eat the salary they can get a fringe prospect for him, but he is 32 and approaching free agency

brm7675
06-09-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't see how or why the Padres would do Ludwick for Heisey straight up. There would, IMO, have to be another young player involved for San Diego to even consider the deal.

That and the fact that Ludwick is a free agent after the season leads me to believe that it might not be the best deal unless they could lock Ludwick up after 2011.

to me it's quite easy to see why SD would do this move. They dump salary and avoid getting nothing when he would leave via FA and they get a very good young serviceable OF in return. It's Cincy that would be making the dumb move, but since Dusty refuses to recognize Heisey as anything more then the 25th man on the roster, by adding Ryan for the rest of the season it would 'MAYBE' add someone who can hit say 5th and give us some more run production since Gomes ain't gonna do that.

Who Dey Time
06-09-2011, 01:41 PM
to me it's quite easy to see why SD would do this move. They dump salary and avoid getting nothing when he would leave via FA and they get a very good young serviceable OF in return. It's Cincy that would be making the dumb move, but since Dusty refuses to recognize Heisey as anything more then the 25th man on the roster, by adding Ryan for the rest of the season it would 'MAYBE' add someone who can hit say 5th and give us some more run production since Gomes ain't gonna do that.

Plain and simple you and a lot of others over value Heisey at this point in his career. I'll agree that watching Gomes and Lewis struggle is head banging at times but that doesn't automatically make Heisey a better player. His performance to date reveals that at this time he is a complimentary player that still needs to work his way into an everyday role.

The deal makes sense if the Padres are simply looking to dump salary. But, if we are talking about value based on the player's performance, a Heisey-Ludwick trade is a win for the Reds.

5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 02:11 PM
Plain and simple you and a lot of others over value Heisey at this point in his career. I'll agree that watching Gomes and Lewis struggle is head banging at times but that doesn't automatically make Heisey a better player. His performance to date reveals that at this time he is a complimentary player that still needs to work his way into an everyday role.

The deal makes sense if the Padres are simply looking to dump salary. But, if we are talking about value based on the player's performance, a Heisey-Ludwick trade is a win for the Reds.

Exactly...Heisey's numbers, both against lefties and as a starter are not good at all

brm7675
06-09-2011, 02:27 PM
Plain and simple you and a lot of others over value Heisey at this point in his career. I'll agree that watching Gomes and Lewis struggle is head banging at times but that doesn't automatically make Heisey a better player. His performance to date reveals that at this time he is a complimentary player that still needs to work his way into an everyday role.

The deal makes sense if the Padres are simply looking to dump salary. But, if we are talking about value based on the player's performance, a Heisey-Ludwick trade is a win for the Reds.

You are right we don't know what Heisey can or can't do, but right now I don't see Ludwick as being leaps and bounds better then Heisey. I think it pretty clear that in the field Heisey is better and given how big the SD outfield is I can see where they would prefer a better glove out there. Also if you look at the monies, you probably are getting a overall better "bang' for your buck with Heisey overall, problem is the Reds are not maximizing him at all.

DocRed
06-09-2011, 02:44 PM
You are right we don't know what Heisey can or can't do, but right now I don't see Ludwick as being leaps and bounds better then Heisey. I think it pretty clear that in the field Heisey is better and given how big the SD outfield is I can see where they would prefer a better glove out there. Also if you look at the monies, you probably are getting a overall better "bang' for your buck with Heisey overall, problem is the Reds are not maximizing him at all.

Ludwick is leaps and bounds better than Heisey...because Dusty refuses to play him. If you don't play you have zero productivity.

Vottomatic
06-09-2011, 03:22 PM
We already have a thread on this. Can a mod please combine the two threads?

Thanks.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89858&page=3

5TimeWSChamps
06-09-2011, 03:26 PM
We already have a thread on this. Can a mod please combine the two threads?

Thanks.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89858&page=3

My bad...only looked at thread titles, not content inside

Carolina Red
06-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Hal McCoy should move to St. Louis. There is no way I would trade Heisey for Ludwick. Heisey just needs to play everyday. We need a shortstop that can hit and a true #1 pitcher much worse than we need Ludwick.

Redeye fly
06-09-2011, 09:02 PM
You are right we don't know what Heisey can or can't do, but right now I don't see Ludwick as being leaps and bounds better then Heisey. I think it pretty clear that in the field Heisey is better and given how big the SD outfield is I can see where they would prefer a better glove out there. Also if you look at the monies, you probably are getting a overall better "bang' for your buck with Heisey overall, problem is the Reds are not maximizing him at all.

He's probably better than Heisey. "Leaps and bounds better", I don't know. But the key to this whole thing is obviously Dusty and the Reds do not feel Heisey is even leaps and bounds better than Gomes and Lewis. This could be very faulty reasoning on the Reds part. But if they're even close to right, then Ludwick for Heisey would be flat out larceny on the part of the Reds. Because I would certainly say Ludwick is "leaps and bounds better" than Gomes and Lewis.

I do a deal like this if I'm the Reds. I mean I know Ludwick isn't a particularly young player anymore but he's not done yet either. And as was mentioned over at the ORG, he's OPSing over .800 away from Petco. Put him in a hitter's park and get him away from the NL West parks like San Diego's, San Francisco's, and Dodger Stadium, and he should pay dividends.

I mean there's very little downside here. You can think Heisey is the greatest player in the world as a fan here, but if the Reds aren't going to play him, what have you lost? You've lost your best pinch hitting power bat off the bench, and that is a bit of a loss. You've lost a decent glove man. But the bottom line is you're getting next to nothing out of Gomes and Lewis and you're not playing Heisey. I mean if that' literally all it took, the Reds should be all over this. You're getting somebody who's definitely better than Lewis and Gomes and you're giving up somebody who you're not giving many starts to anyway.

BluegrassRedleg
06-09-2011, 09:12 PM
Ludwick is not "leaps and bounds" better than Heisey. The only reason Heisey's numbers aren't better is he can't get into ANY kind of rhythm with his confusing role on this team. You gotta give him the regular ABs to know if he can do it or not.

To me, they're the same player.

The DARK
06-09-2011, 09:35 PM
Ludwick was a regularly solid hitter in STL for many years, and would likely be upon leaving Petco. On the surface, this would be a great move. It clears the way in the outfield for Sappelt and Alonso next year, while giving us an immediate upgrade over Gomes and Lewis. Don't be skeptical that SD would take Heisey, either. He'd be cheap and under team control for many years, unlike Ludwick. As a rebuilding move, it works for them, and as a trade for a playoff push, it works for us.

I'm skeptical about signing a player that was on the Cardinals so close to the brawl, however. Bad blood and infighting is the last thing this team needs, regardless of how much Jocketty likes his former players.

Redeye fly
06-09-2011, 09:38 PM
Hal McCoy should move to St. Louis. There is no way I would trade Heisey for Ludwick. Heisey just needs to play everyday. We need a shortstop that can hit and a true #1 pitcher much worse than we need Ludwick.


But the thing is for whatever the reason the Reds don't value Heisey enough to play him every day. So would you whether see Gomes or Lewis out there in LF, or Ryan Ludwick in LF? Heisey playing every day is simply not even a conceivable option right now in Cincinnati. Whether he should be or not, whether he deserves to be or not isn't even the issue. The issue is do you want the production Gomes and Lewis give you, or do you want the production Ludwick gives you at that position. Heisey for whatever the reason isn't in the equation as a regular.

I'd add too that anything you get out of Heisey is a regular is all speculation. There's been plenty who have speculated it would not be all that impressive based on his play when he does start. Although granted, that's such a small sample size that projecting much of anything from it is a tad ridiculous. But again just looking at it realistically, when you're talking about the probability of regular at bats among those 4 players, in that conversation you're talking Gomes, Lewis, and Ludwick, with Heisey very much on the outside. Of the first 3, it should be obvious that Ludwick is the best choice.

Reds
06-09-2011, 09:40 PM
Merge threads and close, Walt said he hasn't discussed it with SD.

5TimeWSChamps
06-10-2011, 12:56 AM
Ludwick was a regularly solid hitter in STL for many years, and would likely be upon leaving Petco. On the surface, this would be a great move. It clears the way in the outfield for Sappelt and Alonso next year, while giving us an immediate upgrade over Gomes and Lewis. Don't be skeptical that SD would take Heisey, either. He'd be cheap and under team control for many years, unlike Ludwick. As a rebuilding move, it works for them, and as a trade for a playoff push, it works for us.

I'm skeptical about signing a player that was on the Cardinals so close to the brawl, however. Bad blood and infighting is the last thing this team needs, regardless of how much Jocketty likes his former players.

Ludwick wasn't on that brawl team. they had already traded him to SD in the Westbrook trade IIRC

Seņor Rojo
06-10-2011, 02:10 AM
Ludwick was a regularly solid hitter in STL for many years, and would likely be upon leaving Petco. On the surface, this would be a great move. It clears the way in the outfield for Sappelt and Alonso next year, while giving us an immediate upgrade over Gomes and Lewis. Don't be skeptical that SD would take Heisey, either. He'd be cheap and under team control for many years, unlike Ludwick. As a rebuilding move, it works for them, and as a trade for a playoff push, it works for us.

I'm skeptical about signing a player that was on the Cardinals so close to the brawl, however. Bad blood and infighting is the last thing this team needs, regardless of how much Jocketty likes his former players.

Totally agree. The GM gives the manager the players that he can put on the scorecard everyday. For whatever reason, Dusty doesn't play Heisey on a regular basis unless it's for a double switch/defensive update substitution. Sappelt and Alonso are putting up quality stats in the minors that will eventually force Walt's hand at either deciding to call them up or trade them. We have a few seasons to assess what Gomes is capable of, so it might be time for a shakeup in LF.

I see this trade as a slight variation of the Dickerson trade from last season. The Reds give up a substitute outfielder that has potential (in Heisey's defense he is younger and better than Dickerson was at the trade time) for a former Cardinal. If it's not Heisey getting traded, it very well could be Sappelt or Alonso. It comes down to who Walt sees as the Reds future left fielder.

berryluther
06-10-2011, 08:12 AM
Ludwick would be an upgrade in LF. heisey is not going to be a cornerstone to any deal for a pitcher or SS so I say do it.

gedred69
06-10-2011, 10:53 AM
I thought StL traded away their shot for the Division title last year when they traded Ludwick, he was the "other" bat in that line-up. He'd fit here well I think as the bridge to Sappelt/Alonso next season.

demas863
06-10-2011, 01:57 PM
If Heisey weren't such a good pinch hitter he'd be starting more often and we'd have a measure of just how good or bad he is. Could somebody please finish this post?

Kiss the Baby00
06-10-2011, 02:04 PM
if we took Ludwick for Heisey I would cry. that is an awful trade idea. Hal McCoy shouldnt be in any HoF. The guy is not a good writer and has bad thoughts/opinions.

brm7675
06-10-2011, 02:16 PM
if we took Ludwick for Heisey I would cry. that is an awful trade idea. Hal McCoy shouldnt be in any HoF. The guy is not a good writer and has bad thoughts/opinions.

How is trading a non used 25th man on your roster for a player who could see game action and produce a bad trade?

Pete4prez
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Heisey is all upside, he is full of potential, with Ludwick, he is a vetern and is as good as he is going to get. Dont trade Heisey.....play him.

Kiss the Baby00
06-10-2011, 03:23 PM
This message is hidden because brm7675 is on your ignore list.


finding this feature has made reading this forum so much more enjoyable

brm7675
06-10-2011, 03:54 PM
Heisey is all upside, he is full of potential, with Ludwick, he is a vetern and is as good as he is going to get. Dont trade Heisey.....play him.

But we know Dusty won't, he has been every opportunity to play Chris and for whatever reason has decided that Chris is only a 25th man on the roster type of player.

mu4103
06-10-2011, 04:49 PM
This message is hidden because brm7675 is on your ignore list.


finding this feature has made reading this forum so much more enjoyable
I don't care. No reason to attack BRM - less this be a trash talking message board.

Vottomatic
06-22-2011, 04:54 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/06/phillies-mariners-reds-inquired-on-ludwick.html

Article today saying Reds have inquired about Ludwick.

brm7675
06-22-2011, 05:34 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/06/phillies-mariners-reds-inquired-on-ludwick.html

Article today saying Reds have inquired about Ludwick.

to me this comes down to something real simple. Is Ludwick in LF better then Gomes/Lewis platoon. If you think it is then you make that deal right now, if you don't you walk away. However "IF" the Reds are inquiring, and that is a HUGE IF, you then have to ask yourself...WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY WAITING ON?

Krawhitham
06-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Honestly, I'd do it. Heisey is a good 5th OF, but he's still not shown to be the LF of the future. Ludwick immediately can slide right into the #4/#5 hole and will easily OPS +.800 at GABP..not to mention he will want to exact some revenge on St Louis for giving him up for Jake effing Westbrook.

Heisey is more valuable that Ludwick even if he just pinch hits.

Because Ludwick is no improvement over Gomes, Gomes has a higher OBP, SLG, & OPS.

Pinch hitters are not easy to come by and are needed badly

brm7675
06-22-2011, 06:33 PM
Heisey is more valuable that Ludwick even if he just pinch hits.

Because Ludwick is no improvement over Gomes, Gomes has a higher OBP, SLG, & OPS.

Pinch hitters are not easy to come by and are needed badly

Ludwick plays in an incredible pitchers park, Gomes players in an incredible hitters park. I will take my chances with Ludwick over Gomes anyday. Plus I will sacrafice Hesiey to get him.

Krawhitham
06-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Both perform better on the road than at home (Jonny bats 85 points higher on the road)

Plus Jonny has a better AWAY OPS that Ludwick


Jonny fields better, it just seems like a waste of money to get Ludwick. Use that money on a different trade

Vottomatic
06-22-2011, 08:53 PM
If I were management, I would stick Heisey in the starting lineup for 2 months (same leash Gomes got) and see what his overall stats are.

They did it with Jonny while he was hitting .185. I don't get why Heisey can't have the same timeframe to prove himself?

Oh yeah.......it's because Krusty Baker is the manager. Veteran creaminess.

R_Webb18
06-23-2011, 11:04 AM
quick question whats the differance between ludwick this year and jonny gomes last year?