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Votto4MVP
06-10-2011, 08:11 PM
What would you guys think about this Opening day lineup in 2012?


1. Sappelt LF
2. Phillips 2B
3. Votto 1B
4. Bruce RF
5. Mesoraco C
6. Stubbs CF
7. Rolen LF (then Frasier as his backup and probably starting 3 times a week)
8. Cozart SS(janish backing up unless he starts hitting better)
9. Cueto P

The DARK
06-10-2011, 09:14 PM
I Think you mean Rolen 3B.

It's a good lineup, and it seems pretty close to conventional thinking (though I'd put Rolen ahead of Stubbs). It still depends on a lot of things, however:

-Sappelt has to overcome a lot of competition in LF. Alonso, Frazier, and Heisey would also be applying for a starting role. Also, he has to become a better baserunner, or else Stubbs will continue to lead off and he will be shuffled to the 6 and 7-holes like Lewis.

-Phillips has to be resigned or have his option picked up.

-Dusty has comfortable jutting Votto and Bruce up against each other for the long run.

-Cueto has to be comfortable in a starting day role.

-Cozart has to prove himself over the full season, and Janish has to continue struggling the way he has.

-No major trades are made.

matt85webb
06-10-2011, 09:17 PM
We are not even half way through the season, and your thinking about next season already, so this is a non-valid post due to possible transactions to be made by then.

lonewolf371
06-10-2011, 09:44 PM
I'm just interested in 2011 right now. This is offseason discussion for me.

Votto4MVP
06-10-2011, 09:48 PM
I'm just interested in 2011 right now. This is offseason discussion for me.

Im not giving up on this year by any means...I just am getting really excited by the talent we have in AAA. We have 6 regular starters batting over .320 for the bats, 5 of whom are considered prospects (Alonso, Mes, Sappelt, Cozart, Francisco).

Its not like this post is taking others away from other threads...there wasnt much going on so I thought I would just throw it out there...

lonewolf371
06-11-2011, 02:23 AM
Im not giving up on this year by any means...I just am getting really excited by the talent we have in AAA. We have 6 regular starters batting over .320 for the bats, 5 of whom are considered prospects (Alonso, Mes, Sappelt, Cozart, Francisco).

Its not like this post is taking others away from other threads...there wasnt much going on so I thought I would just throw it out there...
Oh yeah sure, but with their ages and such I'm ready to agree with some others that some of the players that are blocked should be dealt.

ruREaDy2
06-11-2011, 10:56 AM
All we should be concerned about right now are the Giants.

bshall2105
06-11-2011, 11:34 AM
Why does it matter what time of year it is? There is nothing wrong with looking ahead, it's not like we're the ones actually playing today.

I think it's an interesting lineup that I would be happy with but I don't think Mesoraco will start opening day. I also don't see Rolen hitting that low in the lineup until he struggles for a while like Jonny Gomes this year. That's if Rolen even plays next year.

Krawhitham
06-11-2011, 12:26 PM
1. Phillips 2nd (R)
2. Cozart SS (R)
3. Votto 1st (L)
4. Bruce RF (L)
5. Stubbs CF (R)
6. Francisco 3rd (L)
7. Alonso LF (L)
8. Mesoraco C (R)
9. Wood P

Not ideal but you have to split up righty lefty somehow

Rolen will be on the DL to start the season and on it through most of season
Razor will be on a different team
Unless Janish starts hitting he is a backup next season (not that I think that is a good idea)

Alonso signed a ML contract and has to be on the team next season (sorta like Willy Mo)

Votto4MVP
06-11-2011, 12:57 PM
1. Phillips 2nd (R)
2. Cozart SS (R)
3. Votto 1st (L)
4. Bruce RF (L)
5. Stubbs CF (R)
6. Francisco 3rd (L)
7. Alonso LF (L)
8. Mesoraco C (R)
9. Wood P

Not ideal but you have to split up righty lefty somehow

Rolen will be on the DL to start the season and on it through most of season
Razor will be on a different team
Unless Janish starts hitting he is a backup next season (not that I think that is a good idea)

Alonso signed a ML contract and has to be on the team next season (sorta like Willy Mo)

When Mes is on the major league team he wont be batting 8th. If he is it just means we have a stacked lineup. I think Sappelt is going to end up in LF and leading off and we will likely deal Alonso. If Alonso improves defensively then maybe he will stay.

Its too bad Alonso cant play third, id rather have his bat then Juans.

signalhome
06-11-2011, 01:15 PM
1. Phillips 2nd (R)
2. Cozart SS (R)
3. Votto 1st (L)
4. Bruce RF (L)
5. Stubbs CF (R)
6. Francisco 3rd (L)
7. Alonso LF (L)
8. Mesoraco C (R)
9. Wood P

Not ideal but you have to split up righty lefty somehow

Rolen will be on the DL to start the season and on it through most of season
Razor will be on a different team
Unless Janish starts hitting he is a backup next season (not that I think that is a good idea)

Alonso signed a ML contract and has to be on the team next season (sorta like Willy Mo)

I'd rather have Frazier than Francisco, but that's mostly because I don't view Francisco as the answer to anything other than "Who is the left-handed equivalent of Wily Mo Pena?" It's going to be very hard for Francisco to be above-average at the major league level if he's walking 5% of the time and striking out 25% of the time. That's not a recipe for success, especially considering Francisco's poor defense (though he does have a plus arm).

Krawhitham
06-11-2011, 02:56 PM
It's going to be very hard for Francisco to be above-average at the major league level if he's walking 5% of the time and striking out 25% of the time. That's not a recipe for success, especially considering Francisco's poor defense (though he does have a plus arm).


Stubbs is walking 8% of the time and striking out 30% of the time

signalhome
06-11-2011, 05:14 PM
Stubbs is walking 8% of the time and striking out 30% of the time

Right, and Stubbs plays very good defense and runs the bases extremely well. Stubbs' offensive game is a bit above average, but it's the other aspects of his game that elevate his overall value. If Stubbs were below average on defense and running the bases, he would probably be right around league average overall. Francisco is all bat, nothing more, and it's going to be hard for his bat to overcome his other shortcomings.

Plus, Stubbs' career MLB walk rate is 8.9%, and his career minors walk rate is even better. Francisco's career minor league walk rate is half that, sitting right at 4%. They aren't really comparable in their plate discipline. Stubbs sees over 4.00 pitches per plate appearance, whereas Francisco will never even come close to that mark -- in only 59 games at the major league level, he is seeing 3.81 P/PA. That number in itself is likely very inflated, as his MLB BB% is much higher than his minors BB% and is due for some regression, so that P/PA number will be a lot lower for his career. Juan Pierre walks at a similar rate to Francisco, and he has only seen 3.47 P/PA in his career; Francisco's will be a bit higher than that due to Pierre's excessive bunting, but not much higher.

There's seriously a lot of Wily Mo in this guy. Below average defense and baserunning skills, plus power, and below average plate discipline. Francisco will hit for a higher average, but to make up for his extremely poor plate discipline (as well as being below average in other aspects of the game), he will need to hit for a very high average, which is difficult to do while striking out 25% of the time. Not impossible, but very difficult, as it requires the hitter to post a very high BABIP. Francisco's BABIP so far at the majors if .413 -- a number that is nowhere close to sustainable by anyone -- and yet he still has a .295 average. His career minors BABIP is high, sitting around .335 or so, but it's going to have to be even higher for that to hit well above .300, and I just don't see him doing this. Francisco can be an average major league player thanks to his plus power, but I just can't see him ever being much more than that. Hopefully he ends up proving me wrong.

bounty37h
06-13-2011, 11:03 AM
What would you guys think about this Opening day lineup in 2012?


1. Sappelt LF
2. Phillips 2B
3. Votto 1B
4. Bruce RF
5. Mesoraco C
6. Stubbs CF
7. Rolen LF (then Frasier as his backup and probably starting 3 times a week)
8. Cozart SS(janish backing up unless he starts hitting better)
9. Cueto P

I hope Sappelt is able to be here by then but that left side doesn't look much better then what we have right now, and its bad right now. Thats a lot of unaswered questions between ss, 3rd, and LF, but we know the answer of with what we have now so might as well give something else a shot.

bounty37h
06-13-2011, 11:07 AM
1. Phillips 2nd (R)
2. Cozart SS (R)
3. Votto 1st (L)
4. Bruce RF (L)
5. Stubbs CF (R)
6. Francisco 3rd (L)
7. Alonso LF (L)
8. Mesoraco C (R)
9. Wood P

Not ideal but you have to split up righty lefty somehow

Rolen will be on the DL to start the season and on it through most of season
Razor will be on a different team
Unless Janish starts hitting he is a backup next season (not that I think that is a good idea)

Alonso signed a ML contract and has to be on the team next season (sorta like Willy Mo)

I see a lot of runs being scored on us with Fran at 3rd and Alonso behind him, thats a weaker defensive side then we have now (Rolen is at least good when he can bend over somewhat)