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The Voice of IH
06-11-2011, 07:07 PM
So now he is playing left field. Shame on me for not knowing this until now. But regardless, how is he looking out there? Is he making the transition that everyone thought he could not? Or is he Adam Dunn esq.

Once again, sorry I did not catch on to this earlier.

cinreds21
06-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Adam Dunn esq.

He has improved, but that isn't saying too much.

GOYA
06-11-2011, 08:19 PM
I think a comparison to Dunn isn't quite fair. Dunn let relatively easy balls get past him. Yonder is pretty good as long as he gets to the ball. His only problem is getting to balls where route and speed are necessary.

The DARK
06-11-2011, 10:46 PM
I think a comparison to Dunn isn't quite fair. Dunn let relatively easy balls get past him. Yonder is pretty good as long as he gets to the ball. His only problem is getting to balls where route and speed are necessary.

Hopefully route comes with experience, because he'll never have the speed. He's only had one error on the season, though.

Blitz Dorsey
06-11-2011, 11:08 PM
I've heard he makes Jonny Gomes look like a Gold-Glove outfielder.

dougdirt
06-12-2011, 12:18 AM
I've heard he makes Jonny Gomes look like a Gold-Glove outfielder.

You have heard wrong. Alonso isn't good out there, but Gomes is pretty dang on brutal. They are on the same level in my opinion. Gomes has more range because his speed is better, but he takes brutal routes and has no judgement so his range doesn't play better. Alonso has a decent arm and much better than you would expect from a first baseman.

757690
06-12-2011, 12:24 AM
I've heard he makes Jonny Gomes look like a Gold-Glove outfielder.

Just for the record, Fangraphs has Gomes as a plus defender so far this year. +2.1 UZR and +9.6 UZR/150. Maybe Thom and Chris are right?

fearofpopvol1
06-12-2011, 12:29 AM
You have heard wrong. Alonso isn't good out there, but Gomes is pretty dang on brutal. They are on the same level in my opinion. Gomes has more range because his speed is better, but he takes brutal routes and has no judgement so his range doesn't play better. Alonso has a decent arm and much better than you would expect from a first baseman.

I would bet over the course of a full season, you would see Alonso's UZR worse than Gomes.

Scrap Irony
06-12-2011, 12:29 AM
Alonso's routes are horrid. Little League bad.

But he's gotten better since last season. So maybe there's hope he turns into a Gomes type defender. He does catch almost everything he gets to.

He also looks like he's going to be a better bat than Jonny. He'll need to go 850 or so as a LF to have positive value, IMO.

dougdirt
06-12-2011, 02:39 AM
I would bet over the course of a full season, you would see Alonso's UZR worse than Gomes.

It is possible, but I don't think it would be by much. Alonso, much like Gomes, is going to catch what he gets to. Problem is, neither guy gets to a lot.

Scrap Irony
06-12-2011, 10:40 AM
It is possible, but I don't think it would be by much. Alonso, much like Gomes, is going to catch what he gets to. Problem is, neither guy gets to a lot.

But Alonso, so far at least, gets to much, much less.

His UZR would be Dunn-ian. It could very well be worse than that. His routes are horrific-- much, much worse than Gomes. Add in his lack of speed and he's worse than anyone right now in the major leagues by a significant margin. (Think Dave Kingman in his latter years, without the arm, or Greg Luzinski.)

But he's improved a great deal in a year. He's beter now than I ever thought he'd be. And his bat looks to be better than Gomes by a significant margin. He'll have to OPS 850 (the 120 - 130 OPS+ range this season) to be a "good" choice overall.

Personally, I'd rather try Sappelt there, as he balances the lineup and should provide a much better glove. But Alonso looks like a better choice than Gomes at ths point, certainly.

edabbs44
06-12-2011, 11:10 AM
His UZR would be Dunn-ian. It could very well be worse than that. His routes are horrific-- much, much worse than Gomes. Add in his lack of speed and he's worse than anyone right now in the major leagues by a significant margin. (Think Dave Kingman in his latter years, without the arm, or Greg Luzinski.)

I mean, could there possibly be a worse scouting report? I guess maybe if he compared him to a Bengie Molina in LF with a sprained ankle?

dougdirt
06-12-2011, 01:08 PM
But Alonso, so far at least, gets to much, much less.

His UZR would be Dunn-ian. It could very well be worse than that. His routes are horrific-- much, much worse than Gomes. Add in his lack of speed and he's worse than anyone right now in the major leagues by a significant margin. (Think Dave Kingman in his latter years, without the arm, or Greg Luzinski.)



I don't think you watch Gomes play enough if you think Alonso takes much worse routes.

Scrap Irony
06-12-2011, 01:20 PM
I don't think Gomes has been a good defensive player since being a Red. He's better this year so far, partly, IMO, due to the loss of weight and off-season work. Whether that continues or not is anyone's guess.

But, while Gomes' routes are indeed bad, Alonso's are postively Manny-esque. His routes are banana-shaped, which leads to even poorer range than his slow feet would allow. (They are better than they were when he started-- at that point, he'd run in semi-circles to where he thought the ball might land.)

Caveat Emperor
06-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Just so we're operating with a full deck here -- has anyone actually watched Yonder play more than 2 or 3 times, or is this all based on "I went to a game a few Fridays ago and he looked terrible?"

cinreds21
06-13-2011, 11:51 AM
Just so we're operating with a full deck here -- has anyone actually watched Yonder play more than 2 or 3 times, or is this all based on "I went to a game a few Fridays ago and he looked terrible?"

This guy.

GOYA
06-13-2011, 12:43 PM
has anyone actually watched Yonder play more than 2 or 3 times

I have. In person and television.

dougdirt
06-13-2011, 12:46 PM
I have. In person and television.

Same here.

Scrap Irony
06-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Just so we're operating with a full deck here -- has anyone actually watched Yonder play more than 2 or 3 times, or is this all based on "I went to a game a few Fridays ago and he looked terrible?"

Bunches.

NJReds
06-13-2011, 01:05 PM
So if LF is not an option, do you guys who see Yonder quite often believe that the Reds best option is to boost his value in the minors and trade him in a package for ML talent?

I have to assume the Reds will do all in their power to keep Votto, so it doesn't seem like Alosno has a spot on the Reds roster anytime soon.

Scrap Irony
06-13-2011, 01:10 PM
I'd deal him personally.

LA and Tampa Bay need a 1B of the future and have little in the pipeline at that position. And both have stuff the Reds could use right now.

Caveat Emperor
06-13-2011, 01:29 PM
So if LF is not an option, do you guys who see Yonder quite often believe that the Reds best option is to boost his value in the minors and trade him in a package for ML talent?

Bad defense doesn't prevent lots of other people (including many Reds and former Reds) from playing LF -- I don't see why everyone is so hung-up on Alonso's defensive issues. Teams have been hiding good bats w/ bad gloves in LF for generations. The Reds don't need to re-invent the wheel here.

GOYA
06-13-2011, 01:42 PM
But why put Yonder there when there are better options within the system for the Reds?

dougdirt
06-13-2011, 01:50 PM
But why put Yonder there when there are better options within the system for the Reds?

Because it is arguable that there are actually better options. Sappelt is the only one with an argument in my opinion.

Scrap Irony
06-13-2011, 02:00 PM
There are three questions on Alonso's move to LF:
1. Can his bat can carry his glove in LF? He'll have to OPS in the 850 OPS territory to be league average, IMO. I think he'll get there most years, but I don't think he'll ever be an Adam Dunn or Manny Ramirez offensively (which is what he'd need to be a true All-Star.)

2. Can someone else provide better value at the spot? Dave Sappelt has just as good offensive numbers and should play LF like a CF. He and Alonso are the same age, so there's little problem there. His reworked swing has gone on a 920 OPS tear over the past 700 ABs. (Alonso's past 700 ABs: around an 850 OPS.)

3. Is someone else willing to pay for Alonso as a 1B, his natural position? And, if so, what are they willing to give up? Tampa is looking for a 1B of the future (though Kotchman is looking like a great signing.). So is LA. LA needs to get rid of some salary as well. A deal of Alonso, Heisey, Grandal/ Mesoraco, and Janish for Furcal and Kemp makes sense for me. It's something that makes sense for LA too, IMO.

Caveat Emperor
06-13-2011, 02:29 PM
2. Can someone else provide better value at the spot? Dave Sappelt has just as good offensive numbers and should play LF like a CF. He and Alonso are the same age, so there's little problem there. His reworked swing has gone on a 920 OPS tear over the past 700 ABs. (Alonso's past 700 ABs: around an 850 OPS.)

Sappelt's a little kid (5'9") with mediocre pedigree -- I want to see a full season in AAA before I'm willing to bet anything more than a $1 on him being anywhere close to a .900 OPS bat.

Scrap Irony
06-13-2011, 02:36 PM
But he doesn't have to be a 900 bat to be better than Alonso (or any other LFer in the Red system). He's going to be an average to plus defender in LF, so all he's got to do is OPS around 820 to provide major positive value.

Caveat Emperor
06-13-2011, 02:41 PM
But he doesn't have to be a 900 bat to be better than Alonso (or any other LFer in the Red system). He's going to be an average to plus defender in LF, so all he's got to do is OPS around 820 to provide major positive value.

And I guess this is where our little debate ends, because I think defensive metrics are completely out of whack when it comes to placing value on LF defense. Bad gloves get hidden there for a reason -- great defense simply doesn't make as big a difference in LF as it does other places on the diamond, and bad defense doesn't hurt nearly as badly.

krm1580
06-13-2011, 02:53 PM
And I guess this is where our little debate ends, because I think defensive metrics are completely out of whack when it comes to placing value on LF defense. Bad gloves get hidden there for a reason -- great defense simply doesn't make as big a difference in LF as it does other places on the diamond, and bad defense doesn't hurt nearly as badly.

I would agree. The big joke before this season was how bad the Cardinals defense was going to kill them with guys like Berkman playing right and Theriot playing SS and they are still 20 runs better than the Reds when it comes to runs allowed.

If we played someplace like Colorado or San Diego where there was acres of outfield to cover I could understand the concern with him in LF. It would not be that big a deal if he played LF here.

GOYA
06-13-2011, 05:15 PM
they are still 20 runs better than the Reds when it comes to runs allowed.

You think pitching might have more to do with that?

Kingspoint
06-13-2011, 05:33 PM
So if LF is not an option, do you guys who see Yonder quite often believe that the Reds best option is to boost his value in the minors and trade him in a package for ML talent?

I have to assume the Reds will do all in their power to keep Votto, so it doesn't seem like Alosno has a spot on the Reds roster anytime soon.

Yes.

GOYA
06-13-2011, 05:54 PM
Because it is arguable that there are actually better options. Sappelt is the only one with an argument in my opinion.

Frazier is an obvious option to me. Plus he brings the versatility to cover for Rolen at 3B when someone else gets a start in left.

Frazier
v LHP - .254/.376/.563 - .940

v RHP - .301/.362/.485 - .847

Alonso
v LHP - .305/.355/.524 - .879

v RHP - .321/.382/.494 - .875

Of those 2, why would one be an option in left and not the other?

Kingspoint
06-13-2011, 06:08 PM
Why have a guy on the bench who can only play 1B with any effectiveness at the Major League level? Do you put him out there in Left Field when a pitcher at the GAB needs every bit of help he can get on Defense?

Alonso gets as long as he needs at AAA to learn to play Left Field "OR" until he gets traded to another organization.

In the meantime, others, like Frazier, Hermida, etc., should be promoted before him to the REDS' big-league club. He gets the September call-up, obviously, if he is still a RED, but I can't see a reason to put him on that bench, when a guy like Frazier can play 3 or 4 positions off of the bench.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2011, 07:12 PM
Frazier is an obvious option to me. Plus he brings the versatility to cover for Rolen at 3B when someone else gets a start in left.

Frazier
v LHP - .254/.376/.563 - .940

v RHP - .301/.362/.485 - .847

Alonso
v LHP - .305/.355/.524 - .879

v RHP - .321/.382/.494 - .875

Of those 2, why would one be an option in left and not the other?

Okay, now here's one I don't know. I've seen Frazier play the IF slots quite a bit, but I've yet to see him in the OF. How is Todd's defense in LF?

camisadelgolf
06-13-2011, 07:14 PM
Okay, now here's one I don't know. I've seen Frazier play the IF slots quite a bit, but I've yet to see him in the OF. How is Todd's defense in LF?
It's pretty good imho. He's a better left fielder than a third baseman if you ask me.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2011, 07:15 PM
Fine routes? I know he's got the foot speed and the arm for left. It's mainly the route taking that's really up in the air I'd think.

dougdirt
06-13-2011, 08:28 PM
Frazier is an obvious option to me. Plus he brings the versatility to cover for Rolen at 3B when someone else gets a start in left.

Frazier
v LHP - .254/.376/.563 - .940

v RHP - .301/.362/.485 - .847

Alonso
v LHP - .305/.355/.524 - .879

v RHP - .321/.382/.494 - .875

Of those 2, why would one be an option in left and not the other?

Because I trust Alonso's bat to be above average in the Majors and I don't trust Todd's. Not that Todd can't be, but I don't have nearly the same kind of faith in his bat at the next level as I do Alonso's.

reds44
06-13-2011, 08:53 PM
Alonso has the most talented bat in the system, bar none.

NeilHamburger
06-13-2011, 09:36 PM
Honestly, this whole thread is very confusing. Multiple people seem to have seen Alonso play a bunch of games in left. Some say he would be just below adequate (probably around Gomes) while others who have watched the same guy play left say it's beyond terrible. And all these posters are ones that I generally trust. I really don't know what to think.

Kingspoint
06-14-2011, 01:03 AM
Honestly, this whole thread is very confusing. Multiple people seem to have seen Alonso play a bunch of games in left. Some say he would be just below adequate (probably around Gomes) while others who have watched the same guy play left say it's beyond terrible. And all these posters are ones that I generally trust. I really don't know what to think.

I go with what dougdirt says about his abilities. I just disagree with him (maybe he didn't exactly say that, but he has wondered why he hasn't been called up and given a chance) that the Major League staff should be subjected to either Gomes' or Alonso's Defense in Left Field at the GAB.

The bottom-line is that he's hitting as expected and is showing why he was drafted where he was while at the same time raising the value of his trade ability.

camisadelgolf
06-14-2011, 03:40 AM
Honestly, this whole thread is very confusing. Multiple people seem to have seen Alonso play a bunch of games in left. Some say he would be just below adequate (probably around Gomes) while others who have watched the same guy play left say it's beyond terrible. And all these posters are ones that I generally trust. I really don't know what to think.
I get where you're coming from. This is just one more opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but here's what I'd say. Gomes is far below adequate in left field. Granted, he does seem improved this year, but that's not saying much. Defensively, Alonso may be an upgrade, but it wouldn't be by much at all. The big difference is that Alonso has more potential with his bat. In other words, by MLB standards, Alonso would be a terrible left fielder in terms of defense, but if you're already putting up with Gomes, why not give Alonso a chance if he has more potential? I'm not saying the Reds should go that route, but it's definitely logical thinking.

Caveat Emperor
06-14-2011, 08:36 AM
Of those 2, why would one be an option in left and not the other?

Because Alonso projects to be the better bat, long-term while most people have pegged Frazier to be a utility guy.

If you're going to go young, go with the guy who has the most potential.

Kingspoint
06-16-2011, 12:58 AM
Is Alonso capable of making this play that Gomes made?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_06_15_cinmlb_lanmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=cin

cinreds21
06-16-2011, 01:15 AM
Is Alonso capable of making this play that Gomes made?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_06_15_cinmlb_lanmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=cin

No chance at all.

dougdirt
06-16-2011, 02:13 AM
Is Alonso capable of making this play that Gomes made?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_06_15_cinmlb_lanmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=cin

Nope. Gomes actually seemed to take a good route to that ball. Something he usually doesn't do.

partisan
06-19-2011, 09:42 PM
Is Alonso capable of making this play that Gomes made?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_06_15_cinmlb_lanmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=cin

How many people thought Gomes could make that play?

Bumstead
06-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Gomes can't hit or field...He should be playing the position he's being paid for: 5th OF getting occasional starts against lefties...Defensive metrics are far from accurate IMHO. Personally, I think Heisey should be playing everyday, but if the Reds can't make Dusty do that, then DFA Gomes and bring up Alonso and let Dusty figure it out. If you can't field AND you can't hit, you shouldn't play...Alonso can hit; it remains to be seen if he can play LF reasonably enough to make him a viable option there. We've seen enough to know Gomes can't.

Bum