PDA

View Full Version : Is there a worse team on the bases then the Reds?



brm7675
06-13-2011, 12:11 PM
I mean really we are horrible at baserunning. Twice last night EV cost us on the base paths. I mean really HITH do you get doubled up off second on a deep fly ball? It's real simple, you go about half way, ball caught you return to 2nd, ball not caught you are at third at worse but should score. Then on the ball hit by stubbs down the corner how do you only get to second EV? How many games have we lost just due to very very bad baserunning?

Who Dey Time
06-13-2011, 01:08 PM
I mean really we are horrible at baserunning. Twice last night EV cost us on the base paths. I mean really HITH do you get doubled up off second on a deep fly ball? It's real simple, you go about half way, ball caught you return to 2nd, ball not caught you are at third at worse but should score. Then on the ball hit by stubbs down the corner how do you only get to second EV? How many games have we lost just due to very very bad baserunning?

While I'm not always a huge stats guy, the Reds baserunning stats are about middle of the pack in MLB this season. They are slighty above the league average in XBT% (Reds at 42%, league average at 41), slightly above average in total stolen bases (Reds 47, league avg 44) and slighlty below average in SB% (Reds 71%, league avg 72%).

What Volquez did last night was completely inexcusable and absloutely cost the team at least one run last night but, IMO, stating that the team generally a bad baserunning team is not accurate especailly when considering that they are usually aggressive on the base paths. When you are as aggressive as the Reds like to be there is a chance that you are going to look stupid every now and again but, for the most part, they run the bases no better or worse than most MLB teams.

texasdave
06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Fangraphs has the Reds as the second best baserunning team in the majors. I didn't see any explanation as to how they arrived at that conclusion. But if I am reading it correctly, Reds' baserunning is about 6 and a half runs to the good.

bounty37h
06-13-2011, 04:15 PM
I think overall we are a really good baserunning team, aggressive which I really like. The problem is when we are bad, we are very, very bad and dumb which sticks out more when so good most of the time. If I was Baker I would have yanked Volquez off the field during his blunder and sent him to Dayton at that very moment to learn how the game is played. NO excuses for that.

RedsFan_26
06-13-2011, 04:16 PM
The Reds take pride in being one of the better baserunning teams in the MLB, it has won them alot of games by taking extra bases. They are in the top 5 in the MLB in going first to third on a single, i know it was bad last night, but it was Volquez? Our pitcher.

DGullett35
06-13-2011, 04:25 PM
When a couple base running mistakes happen in the same game it might give the impression that we are a horrible base running team, but I'm blaming last nights gaffe strictly on Volquez. There is no excuse for that. but you could also make a case for the bullpen not doing their job either but that would be a discussion for another thread

Nathan
06-13-2011, 04:44 PM
It was the pitcher making mistakes on the basepaths... THE PITCHER!!!!!!!! Seriously, if he strikes out 4 times in a game would you make the argument "They are a terrible hitting team, they strike out way too much!" You can't put the entire teams offensive strengths and weaknesses on the shoulders of the pitcher.

You always find things to criticize, don't you? They can be on a 20 game winning streak, and you would find something negative to pick out. Get over it! Baseball is a form of entertainment, you are wound too dag-on tight on it.

brm7675
06-13-2011, 05:56 PM
It was the pitcher making mistakes on the basepaths... THE PITCHER!!!!!!!! Seriously, if he strikes out 4 times in a game would you make the argument "They are a terrible hitting team, they strike out way too much!" You can't put the entire teams offensive strengths and weaknesses on the shoulders of the pitcher.

You always find things to criticize, don't you? They can be on a 20 game winning streak, and you would find something negative to pick out. Get over it! Baseball is a form of entertainment, you are wound too dag-on tight on it.

I'm sorry but when you put on the uniform it doesn't matter what position you play, you should know the basics of the game. You don't EVER get doubled up off of 2nd on a ball hit like it was, it's basic baseball. Also when your OWN players are pissed at you then there is an issue. To accept this as a fan is unacceptable, it's okay to "lose" not to give games away. Were you okay with Phillips getting picked off of second back in the Philly series? Winning teams don't make dumb base running mistakes. I am okay with making an out due to hustle, but making outs due to stupidity, that is totally unacceptable and has now cost us more then just one game. This is just more proof of poor coaching/managing.

Sorry but I refuse to accept a basically .500 record with a team as talented as the Reds. To me it's not "entertaining" to watch a talented team give away games and not be in the race for the playoffs.

Kingspoint
06-13-2011, 06:08 PM
Fangraphs has the Reds as the second best baserunning team in the majors. I didn't see any explanation as to how they arrived at that conclusion. But if I am reading it correctly, Reds' baserunning is about 6 and a half runs to the good.

We have a winner!

DocRed
06-13-2011, 07:11 PM
I'm sorry but when you put on the uniform it doesn't matter what position you play, you should know the basics of the game. You don't EVER get doubled up off of 2nd on a ball hit like it was, it's basic baseball. Also when your OWN players are pissed at you then there is an issue. To accept this as a fan is unacceptable, it's okay to "lose" not to give games away. Were you okay with Phillips getting picked off of second back in the Philly series? Winning teams don't make dumb base running mistakes. I am okay with making an out due to hustle, but making outs due to stupidity, that is totally unacceptable and has now cost us more then just one game. This is just more proof of poor coaching/managing.

Sorry but I refuse to accept a basically .500 record with a team as talented as the Reds. To me it's not "entertaining" to watch a talented team give away games and not be in the race for the playoffs.

Would you rather he spent more time on baserunning than pitching?

Vottomatic
06-13-2011, 07:21 PM
No one has ever accused Dusty Baker of having fundamentally sound teams. They never are.

The DARK
06-13-2011, 07:28 PM
Every team makes baserunning mistakes, and often stupid ones. That's just the way it is. There are many far worse teams than the Reds in that department.

brm7675
06-13-2011, 07:42 PM
Every team makes baserunning mistakes, and often stupid ones. That's just the way it is. There are many far worse teams than the Reds in that department.

No the very good teams don't continually make bad dumb baserunning mistakes. It's a lack of discipline from the manager and coach.

Nathan
06-13-2011, 07:56 PM
No the very good teams don't continually make bad dumb baserunning mistakes. It's a lack of discipline from the manager and coach.

Can you think of more than 3 examples?

-Phillips admitted after the game that it was his mess up. Carry on.
- Volquez x2: He's a pitcher. Get over it.

The fact is, the Reds do not run themselves into too many outs. Some, yes, but not as many as you claim it to be.

40YrRedsFan
06-13-2011, 08:06 PM
I agree with Nathan...Volquez' base running blunders just happened on a day where we couldn't muster a timely hit when we had the opportunities....we had more scoring chances
than just the inning when Volquez gaffed....we just didn't come through offensively like has happened on numerous occasions....Our offensive and pitching failures are of much more concern than our base running.

brm7675
06-13-2011, 08:11 PM
Can you think of more than 3 examples?

-Phillips admitted after the game that it was his mess up. Carry on.
- Volquez x2: He's a pitcher. Get over it.

The fact is, the Reds do not run themselves into too many outs. Some, yes, but not as many as you claim it to be.

I can of 2 or 3 times this year that Bruce has been picked off first due to laziness. There was the time Rolen was out at 2nd when he tried to stretch a single into a double. I would say so far this season our bad decisions or lack of mental toughness or whatever you want to call it has led to at least 4-5 games being lost. That is just with just over 60+ being played. I have no issue with being thrown out at second trying to steal and such, but when you give outs away when you don't have to it's just bad baseball. There is no excuse for it and to "accept it" as something that just happens is well...stupid in my view. We are giving away to much, we are not doing the little things that good teams do. Don't even get me started on our inability to score runners with bases loaded and fewer then 2 outs this year....again something the good teams do.

Who Dey Time
06-13-2011, 09:58 PM
No one has ever accused Dusty Baker of having fundamentally sound teams. They never are.

The Reds have the best fielding % in all of MLB, they are fifth in fewest errors with 32 (the top 4 all have 31). As previously mentioned, they are in the top half of the league in baserunning statistics.

They are also first in MLB in total walks and in the top-10 in sacrifices.

I know that some of you folks hate Dusty at all costs facts be damned but saying that the Reds are not a fundamentally sound team has to be one of the least factual statements said about the 2011 team.

powersackers
06-13-2011, 10:37 PM
There's no column in baseball-reference for "Bonehead Plays". If there was I'd venture to guess most teams would be fairly equal. The difference being the good teams probably just cover them up with better pitching/hitting/defense as a whole and they don't "cost" them the game as often as lesser talented teams.

Kingspoint
06-14-2011, 01:52 AM
The Reds have the best fielding % in all of MLB, they are fifth in fewest errors with 32 (the top 4 all have 31). As previously mentioned, they are in the top half of the league in baserunning statistics.

They are also first in MLB in total walks and in the top-10 in sacrifices.

I know that some of you folks hate Dusty at all costs facts be damned but saying that the Reds are not a fundamentally sound team has to be one of the least factual statements said about the 2011 team.

Times Two.

Reds
06-14-2011, 02:22 AM
The Cubs embarrass me when I watch them play defense. And I've only been to Chicago once.

Nathan
06-14-2011, 02:31 AM
You can't bring facts into an emotional argument. Once you start getting emotionally attached to your point of view, no facts will make you change.

Kingspoint
06-14-2011, 02:42 AM
The Cubs embarrass me when I watch them play defense. And I've only been to Chicago once.

Nice to see them slow down that BrewCrew with a 1-0 win tonight. Barney, of course, gets on base with a hustle play and scores the game-winner in the 8th.

cres36
06-14-2011, 11:24 AM
I think that overall the reds are a great base running team but sometimes they make ridiculously dumb errors. EV the other night was definitely two of them. BP in Philly was another but i think that overall it is a stronger area for us. That said the thing that bothered me about EV and BP's outs were that it seemed to me that it was just a lack of hustle or a lack of focus. EV not getting to third just made him look lazy and then getting doubled up from deep left corner is just not even being in the game. Thats the reds problem sometimes they come out fired up ready to play and other times they just go through the motions........frustrating....but i feel a tear coming!

brm7675
06-14-2011, 12:17 PM
The Reds have the best fielding % in all of MLB, they are fifth in fewest errors with 32 (the top 4 all have 31). As previously mentioned, they are in the top half of the league in baserunning statistics.

They are also first in MLB in total walks and in the top-10 in sacrifices.

I know that some of you folks hate Dusty at all costs facts be damned but saying that the Reds are not a fundamentally sound team has to be one of the least factual statements said about the 2011 team.

And yet with all that they are still just a .500 team....hmmmm:confused:

bounty37h
06-14-2011, 12:43 PM
And yet with all that they are still just a .500 team....hmmmm:confused:

Or you could look at it and say they have no left side of field (ss, 3rd or LF), so its amazing they are that good in those stats and even at .500.

Who Dey Time
06-14-2011, 01:41 PM
And yet with all that they are still just a .500 team....hmmmm:confused:

From a statistical standpoint, if you want to look at some of the real reasons why the Reds are hovering around .500 I'd look at:

Starting Pitchers - have allowed 4.51 runs per game which is 7th WORST in MLB.

Walks Allowed - Reds pitchers have allowed 251 walks which is 2nd WORST in MLB.

RISP w/ 2 outs - Reds are hitting .207 which is 7th WORST in MLB.

If these numbers improve (the starting pitchers are starting to already) the Reds will win a lot more games, IMO.

brm7675
06-14-2011, 03:18 PM
From a statistical standpoint, if you want to look at some of the real reasons why the Reds are hovering around .500 I'd look at:

Starting Pitchers - have allowed 4.51 runs per game which is 7th WORST in MLB.

Walks Allowed - Reds pitchers have allowed 251 walks which is 2nd WORST in MLB.

RISP w/ 2 outs - Reds are hitting .207 which is 7th WORST in MLB.

If these numbers improve (the starting pitchers are starting to already) the Reds will win a lot more games, IMO.

to me the most important one is the last one, we stink this year at that compared to last year where it seemed like we always were getting runers over and in.