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Ron Madden
06-15-2011, 05:43 AM
An interesting article by John Erardi:

Do you agree with Erardi? What would you do if you were Walt?

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110614/COL19/306140109/What-moves-should-Reds-make-

PuffyPig
06-15-2011, 08:34 AM
An innings eater like Westbrook wouldn't mkae our rotation.

If you consider that our rotation depth is likely as follows, right now:

Cueto
Leake
Volquez
Arroyo
Bailey
Wood

I'm not sure who a Westbrook innings eater would replace?

Especially since Westbrook is anything like an innings eater. He's having trouble getting past the 6th inning these days.

He hasn't gotten to the 6th inning for 4 starts, and has only twice in 14 starts made the 7th inning. Averaging 5 1/3 innings per start.

Dan
06-15-2011, 09:28 AM
If I had to go with an innings eater, I'd pick up Livan Hernandez. Would much prefer seeing an upgrade in LF though.

I think Kemp is out of the picture. But I've liked Beltran since the start of the year, and Carlos Quentin is an intriguing name too. Upgrading LF would let us live with the lack of production at SS.

membengal
06-15-2011, 09:57 AM
Fwiw, livan tied to some unsavory drug traffiking noise per a bunch of articles yesterday. Not that I think he was a good target before that news, but that sure doesn't help his trade value...

RedsManRick
06-15-2011, 10:24 AM
I agree with most of what Erardi has to say. However, I don't think the Reds need an innings eater. We have plenty of guys who can take the brunt of mediocre innings. If we want something different than what we have, that's a reliable ace.

Johnny Cueto has been pitching like one as of late and Bailey was pitching very well before getting hurt. Ultimately, I think Erardi's biggest point is spot on; the outcome of the season most likely hinges on the guys we already have.

Ghosts of 1990
06-15-2011, 11:17 AM
I would acquire a shortstop. Doesn't have to be Jose Reyes. But I would try to get Erick Aybar from Anaheim. Someone who can hit .260 and not kill you with their glove. If they offer the ability to hit lead-off (like Aybar) it's a plus.

I'd also look at a guy like Jeff Francoeur or someone who can play left field. Again, doesn't need to be a Beltran, or Kemp. How about someone who offers production but has chinks in their armor. KC doesn't value Francoeur too much I wouldn't think. They're looking for prospects. He's not in their long term plans. He's only one example. Willingham and others of that mold have been mentioned here before.

Also, I WOULD NOT look for a starting pitcher. I think we have enough in this department. Go and get a reliever who can help stabilize the bullpen. Scott Downs, Micheal Wuertz, Matt Capps, someone with good stuff who can start us closing down the game an inning earlier. This bullpen will be worn thin by August. Who can breath fresh air into them that's around the league? Someone with stuff who needs a change of scenery.

Just making three moves to slightly upgrade these spots would be a really nice sum of the whole parts of this already decent team.

Will M
06-15-2011, 11:43 AM
1) bring up Cozart. DFA Renteria

2) trade for an everyday left fielder. doesn't have to be some monster like Kemp. Beltran is possible. i would prefer to save the big trade chips for an ace. DFA Gomes

3) trade for an ace. biggest chips to dangle: Alonso, Grandal, Hamilton

4) bring up Frazier and play him when Rolen sits and also spot start him elsewhere. i am thinking ~ 200 PAs for the rest of the year

5) trade Ramon or Ryan (i prefer Ramon as i think his value is higher) and call up Mes

6) keepers: Mes, Cozart (unless a SS comes back vis a trade) & Frazier

bucksfan2
06-15-2011, 11:58 AM
I am beginning to wonder if it won't be an injury that makes the Reds better. Something that gets Frazier, Alonso, Sappelt, Cozart, or Mes into the starting lineup and they take off. I do think the Reds like where they are right now. They have just gone through their brutal stretch of the season. 33 games in 34 days with the likes of the Phillies, Braves, Giants, Brewers, Cleveland, and the dreaded west coast trip. I would imagine that the Reds brass wanted to get through this stretch and stay within striking distance.

I think that LF and SS need to be improved. I don't see Gomes or Renteria being DFA'd but I do think you will see Walt attempt to improve those positions. Bullpen help would be welcomed, maybe another 8th inning man to go along with Massett. I would be against adding a SP unless that pitcher is in the Cliff Lee mold from last season.

Ghosts of 1990
06-15-2011, 01:53 PM
I am beginning to wonder if it won't be an injury that makes the Reds better. Something that gets Frazier, Alonso, Sappelt, Cozart, or Mes into the starting lineup and they take off. I do think the Reds like where they are right now. They have just gone through their brutal stretch of the season. 33 games in 34 days with the likes of the Phillies, Braves, Giants, Brewers, Cleveland, and the dreaded west coast trip. I would imagine that the Reds brass wanted to get through this stretch and stay within striking distance.

A few weeks back at the Friday night game at home against the cardinals, Hanigan got hit on the hand. I was sure he was going to miss time because of it and be on the DL. I was upset but them immediately excited because I thought that might get Mesoraco up here, and I think he's an impact bat; I think he's ready. Hanigan ended up being fine; but I really think Mes could be a huge lift hitting 6th or 7th in this order after a few weeks on the job.

You're right, an injury might be what it takes.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-15-2011, 02:01 PM
I am beginning to wonder if it won't be an injury that makes the Reds better. Something that gets Frazier, Alonso, Sappelt, Cozart, or Mes into the starting lineup and they take off. I do think the Reds like where they are right now. They have just gone through their brutal stretch of the season. 33 games in 34 days with the likes of the Phillies, Braves, Giants, Brewers, Cleveland, and the dreaded west coast trip. I would imagine that the Reds brass wanted to get through this stretch and stay within striking distance.

I think that LF and SS need to be improved. I don't see Gomes or Renteria being DFA'd but I do think you will see Walt attempt to improve those positions. Bullpen help would be welcomed, maybe another 8th inning man to go along with Massett. I would be against adding a SP unless that pitcher is in the Cliff Lee mold from last season.

It's not over yet ... the Yankees, Indians, Rays, Brewers and Cards (not to mention Reds nemesis Toronto; why do we play the Jays so much but rarely ever play the Twins or Tigers?) all dominate the schedule the next couple of weeks.

bucksfan2
06-15-2011, 02:33 PM
It's not over yet ... the Yankees, Indians, Rays, Brewers and Cards (not to mention Reds nemesis Toronto; why do we play the Jays so much but rarely ever play the Twins or Tigers?) all dominate the schedule the next couple of weeks.

Sure it isn't over yet. I was more talking to the brutal stretch of 33 games in 34 days, a west coast swing, and little margin for error. A poorly pitched game and the Reds pen was effected for days afterwards. They were forced to make a number of pitching moves because their arms were tired or hurt.

Over the course of the next few weeks the schedule is difficult but they also have their fair share of off days scattered in there.

Chip R
06-15-2011, 02:47 PM
It's not over yet ... the Yankees, Indians, Rays, Brewers and Cards (not to mention Reds nemesis Toronto; why do we play the Jays so much but rarely ever play the Twins or Tigers?) all dominate the schedule the next couple of weeks.

Because we play CLE twice every year.

Benihana
06-15-2011, 03:04 PM
Call up Cozart and Alonso or Sappelt immediately. Play them everyday for the next month at SS and LF, respectively. Determine whether they can be significant upgrades over the status quo, and make subsequent moves if neccessary:

1. Trade for Reyes
2. Trade for Furcal and Kemp/Ethier
3. (Regardless of what happens with LF and SS) Trade for John Danks, Jeremy Guthrie, Chad Billingsley, or (in a dream world) Jered Weaver.

Use the following players as bait:

1. Grandal
2. Alonso OR Sappelt
3. Francisco OR Frazier
4. Heisey OR LaMarre
5. Cozart OR Janish
6. Lotzkar (let someone else take the risk)
7. Jo.Smith (if someone pays for his performance in Dayton)
8. Boxberger
9. One of the Dayton Trio (Hamilton, Yorman, Duran) - only in the LAD or LAA deal
10. One of Bailey, Leake or Wood - only in the Weaver deal

Orenda
06-15-2011, 06:27 PM
get out of the way and let youth be served

Brutus
06-15-2011, 06:37 PM
I will agree that I don't see a need for an innings eater. With Arroyo and Leake, they may well have two of those. Further, Cueto has been very pitch efficient and Wood has the chance to be that as well. If the Reds add anyone as a starter, it needs to be a top of the rotation arm.

That said, I'd look for one more bullpen arm in middle relief and upgrade shortstop (preferably JJ Hardy if Reyes won't come cheap enough).

corkedbat
06-15-2011, 08:24 PM
I don't think you can count on filling all of your holes by trade. At least some improvement will have to come from within.

1. SS - I would love to have a high OPS SS to bat at the top of the order, but I'm not sure the resources can be sparedwhen there are needs elsewhere. I'm OK with bringing up Cozart, backed by Janish and believe its time to cut bait and DFA Renteria. I would bat Zach 8th to start (to somewhat limit pressure) and would think there would be a net offensive plus. I am 100% against dealing major chips for a rental on Reyes. With the rise of Dee Gordon in LA, I wouldn't mind going after Furcal as part of a larger deal with the Dodgers.

2. C - I think it's Mes time. I'd bring him up and go with him. I'd keep either Ramon or Hanny (dealing the one that brought the most return). I'd really like to keep Grandal, but I'd include him in a deal if it improved the big club enough.

3. LF - While I'm intrigued with Sappelt and would keep him around, I think that this is the one spot where help most needs to come from the outside. I think Heisey is where he should be (4th OF), I might keep Lewis because of his LH bat and I'd definitely part ways with Gomes. My top targets would be Matt Kemp in LA and Justin Upton in Arizona. I'd be just as happ to see Herida as Lewis and Sappelt for Heisey.

4. 3B - I bring up Frazier as Rolen's caddie and as a utility guy.

5. SP - I'm higher on our current SP's (especially Volquez) than many on these boards, but I would like to add an Ace if possible. I'm just not sur there will be one available. The two starters that I'd be most interested now (if available) would be Chad Billingsley (LAD) and Jared Weaver (LAA).

6. BP - From the Right - I'm hoping Burton can come back soon and maybe help the big club in the 2nd half. From the Left - not sure what top targets are out there right now.

Targets:

Dodgers - a blockbuster for Kemp, Fucal and Billingsley
Diamondbacks - Upton or Upton & Stephen Drew
Angels - Jared Weaver
Rays - I like the idea of Hernandez or Hanigan for Alex Cobb

Main Chips:

Alonso, Heisey, Hernandez/Hannigan, Francisco, Hamilton, Grandal, Leake/Voilquez, Maloney, Chapman, Fisher, Smith and just about any minor leaguer if the deal is right.

Scrap Irony
06-15-2011, 08:48 PM
I'd bring up Sappelt and plug him in LF for the rest of the year, with Gomes and Lewis backing up all three OF spots. (Sappelt moves to CF when either comes in.) I'd also bring up Cozart as the starting SS, with Renteria as his caddy and a PH/ MI off the bench.

I'd dangle Heisey, Hanigan/ Hernandez, and Janish as major league stop-gaps along with Alonso for Francisco Liriano, hoping he can capture some magic from before TJ surgery.

OnBaseMachine
06-15-2011, 08:51 PM
I agree with Scrap. I'd bring up Cozart and Sappelt tomorrow ... they can't be any worse than what we already have.

RedsManRick
06-15-2011, 10:50 PM
Sappelt/Alonso & Cozart for Gomes & Renteria seems like a no brainer at this point.

kbrake
06-15-2011, 10:54 PM
Anyone else feel like there is a chance we might actually see Cozart as soon as Friday?

edabbs44
06-15-2011, 10:59 PM
I agree with Scrap. I'd bring up Cozart and Sappelt tomorrow ... they can't be any worse than what we already have.

Quote from an unnamed poster from May 4, 2010.


Can Janish really be much worse offensively than this:

250 .288 .348 .636?

I think we underestimate the floors of some of these guys, especially the guys with less of a track record than others.

edabbs44
06-15-2011, 11:00 PM
Anyone else feel like there is a chance we might actually see Cozart as soon as Friday?

I think this is a possibility.

oregonred
06-15-2011, 11:48 PM
With the recent surge over the last two weeks the Reds are now 5th best in MLB in RS/RA even though a couple games absolutely were left on the table in SF and home against LA. Only the Yankees, Red Sox, Phils and Braves are better.

Also the Reds have the same 37-33 record as last season after 70 games even though according to the pythag they should be 2-3 games better.

Bottom line, the starting staff pitches at league average or better and the club should win 90 games. They should be 9 or 10 over now with the pythag. Whether 90 is enough to win the division is TBD as the Brewers appear to be for real, but things look a lot better now than a couple weeks back.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-16-2011, 01:51 AM
I don't think you can count on filling all of your holes by trade. At least some improvement will have to come from within.

1. SS - I would love to have a high OPS SS to bat at the top of the order, but I'm not sure the resources can be sparedwhen there are needs elsewhere. I'm OK with bringing up Cozart, backed by Janish and believe its time to cut bait and DFA Renteria. I would bat Zach 8th to start (to somewhat limit pressure) and would think there would be a net offensive plus. I am 100% against dealing major chips for a rental on Reyes. With the rise of Dee Gordon in LA, I wouldn't mind going after Furcal as part of a larger deal with the Dodgers.

2. C - I think it's Mes time. I'd bring him up and go with him. I'd keep either Ramon or Hanny (dealing the one that brought the most return). I'd really like to keep Grandal, but I'd include him in a deal if it improved the big club enough.

3. LF - While I'm intrigued with Sappelt and would keep him around, I think that this is the one spot where help most needs to come from the outside. I think Heisey is where he should be (4th OF), I might keep Lewis because of his LH bat and I'd definitely part ways with Gomes. My top targets would be Matt Kemp in LA and Justin Upton in Arizona. I'd be just as happ to see Herida as Lewis and Sappelt for Heisey.

4. 3B - I bring up Frazier as Rolen's caddie and as a utility guy.

5. SP - I'm higher on our current SP's (especially Volquez) than many on these boards, but I would like to add an Ace if possible. I'm just not sur there will be one available. The two starters that I'd be most interested now (if available) would be Chad Billingsley (LAD) and Jared Weaver (LAA).

6. BP - From the Right - I'm hoping Burton can come back soon and maybe help the big club in the 2nd half. From the Left - not sure what top targets are out there right now.

Targets:

Dodgers - a blockbuster for Kemp, Fucal and Billingsley
Diamondbacks - Upton or Upton & Stephen Drew
Angels - Jared Weaver
Rays - I like the idea of Hernandez or Hanigan for Alex Cobb

Main Chips:

Alonso, Heisey, Hernandez/Hannigan, Francisco, Hamilton, Grandal, Leake/Voilquez, Maloney, Chapman, Fisher, Smith and just about any minor leaguer if the deal is right.

The Diamondbacks are just as much in the NL West race as anyone else at this point. It's hard to see them being sellers. Although, like the Indians, it's obvious that their early-season success won't lead to a division championship with the Giants and Rockies there.

WVRedsFan
06-16-2011, 01:54 AM
I agree with some on this thread. We have innings eaters in Arroyo and Cueto. The whole staff got off their game with that brutal no day off marathon (did any other team have to do this?), but I think the starters will be good the second half.

I still want a banger in LF, and why not Yonder? What the heck. He couldn't be any worse than Gomes and Lewis, despite his good play today just doesn't ring my bell. Let's see what he can do. At shortstop, it would probably be wise to let Cozart develop in the minors, but I still believe that with production from left, you can live with the Janish-Renteria tandem.

Relief. Oh boy. Yep, Chapman was supposed to be the Arthur Rhodes replacement, but he wasn't quite ready for prime time (which could have been predicted, btw). God, people are so impressed with fireballers. So much so, that when the media went gaga over his 100+ mph stuff that it must have gone to his head because he hasn't been the same since.

The big question is who to move for the help? I really don't want to move these kids because they will someday be fantastic at a low price. But if we could get a real left fielder (and believe me, it ain't Chris Heisey) who could hit 20-25 HR's, drive in runs, etc., I think we're in it for the long run.

Slyder
06-16-2011, 02:01 AM
An interesting article by John Erardi:

Do you agree with Erardi? What would you do if you were Walt?

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110614/COL19/306140109/What-moves-should-Reds-make-

If you can get a clear upgrade over what we have now in the rotation I'd do it but just to bring in another arm for the sake of having an "innings eater" is a waste of assets. If we get some consistency out of the guys not named Cueto or even stabilized a bit when Homer comes back the innings will take care of themselves.

*Note I said "for the sake of having an "innings eater"*

If you can get a clear #2 or 3 so be it. If youre trying to shuffle deck chairs dont bother.

Ron Madden
06-16-2011, 05:59 AM
Anyone else feel like there is a chance we might actually see Cozart as soon as Friday?

God I hope so.

Janish has taken a lot of heat here lately but I'd still keep him over Renteria.

Edgar is only comfortable at one position and he just can't play it anymore.

buckeyenut
06-16-2011, 07:28 AM
If I am making a trade, I am doing so for an ace, nothing more, unless it is a minor tweak. I think we have the pieces for internal improvement at LF and SS. Only other place I consider it is 3B, but Rolen is such a huge part of the pysche of the team, I don't think you can do that.

Johnny Footstool
06-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Which "aces" are available?

cinreds21
06-16-2011, 10:18 PM
Which "aces" are available?

I'd guess that the best pitchers that MAY become available, in no particular order, are:

Mark Buehrle
John Danks
James Shields
Jeff Francis
Fausto Carmona
Jeremy Guthrie
Carl Pavano
Carlos Zambrano
Ryan Dempster
Paul Maholm
Kevin Correra

I personally would like Danks.

Gallen5862
06-17-2011, 12:32 AM
Do the Reds try to get Scott Kazmir since he was released? Would you sign him to a minor league deal? If signed to a major league contract do Reds just pay the min salary and the rest picked up by the Angels?

cinreds21
06-17-2011, 12:59 AM
Do the Reds try to get Scott Kazmir since he was released? Would you sign him to a minor league deal? If signed to a major league contract do Reds just pay the min salary and the rest picked up by the Angels?

He really has been brutal for a while. No reason to knock off a decent Triple-A rotation for hope that Kazmir turns it around. But like you assumed, if he becomes a free agent and the Reds signed him to a big league deal, they would only be paying the minimum.

Slyder
06-17-2011, 01:30 AM
Do the Reds try to get Scott Kazmir since he was released? Would you sign him to a minor league deal? If signed to a major league contract do Reds just pay the min salary and the rest picked up by the Angels?

If his back is all jacked up like what has being reported then no I wouldn't even bother. If he's willing to sign (with an option for next year) get treatment and make a go of it in August then yes.

Johnny Footstool
06-17-2011, 02:02 AM
I'd guess that the best pitchers that MAY become available, in no particular order, are:

Mark Buehrle
John Danks
James Shields
Jeff Francis
Fausto Carmona
Jeremy Guthrie
Carl Pavano
Carlos Zambrano
Ryan Dempster
Paul Maholm
Kevin Correra

I personally would like Danks.

Of that list, only James Shields is an ace, and the idea of Tampa making him available is a pipe dream. The rest of those guys are no better than what the Reds currently have.

AmarilloRed
06-17-2011, 02:42 PM
One move he should not make is to trade Alonso, unless and until we do get Votto signed beyond 2013. I realize he's the best prospect in the system but I also realize we're going to need a 1B if Votto enter FA after 2013. I don't see any other possibility to take over 1B at a comparable level if Votto enters FA and we trade Alonso.

RedsManRick
06-17-2011, 03:24 PM
One move he should not make is to trade Alonso, unless and until we do get Votto signed beyond 2013. I realize he's the best prospect in the system but I also realize we're going to need a 1B if Votto enter FA after 2013. I don't see any other possibility to take over 1B at a comparable level if Votto enters FA and we trade Alonso.

My guess is that the next in line if Alonso were dealt is some combination of Frazier and Fransisco, and possibly Dorn.

lollipopcurve
06-17-2011, 03:34 PM
My guess is that the next in line if Alonso were dealt is some combination of Frazier and Fransisco, and possibly Dorn.

I think it might be either Mesoraco or Grandal, with the other staying at catcher.

OnBaseMachine
06-17-2011, 03:42 PM
Zack Cozart should have been the starting SS in Cincinnati tonight. He's an above average defensive SS and he's hitting .328/.371/.514 - .885 OPS in Triple-A. With shortstop being a huge liability for the Reds, bringing Cozart up should be an easy decision. I can't figure out what the Reds are waiting on.

Guacarock
06-17-2011, 03:55 PM
Zack Cozart should have been the starting SS in Cincinnati tonight. He's an above average defensive SS and he's hitting .328/.371/.514 - .885 OPS in Triple-A. With shortstop being a huge liability for the Reds, bringing Cozart up should be an easy decision. I can't figure out what the Reds are waiting on.

I'm with you on Cozart. The Reds already should have promoted him to the ML club, not only to reward his performance at Louisville but also given the unacceptably weak offense of Janish and Renteria. I don't have any problem keeping Janish around as a late-inning defender, but Renteria is a clear waste of a roster spot.

The only explanations I can see why Jocketty has dragged his feet on Cozart:

A. He's eyeing acquiring a SS before the trade deadline, say the Orioles' Hardy or in a blockbuster the Mets' Reyes, and doesn't want to call up Cozart for a cup of Joe.

B. He's still holding out hope that Janish can start to hit because if he does, he would be our ideal SS in light of his vacuum-tight defense.

Guacarock
06-17-2011, 04:24 PM
There is, of course, a third possible option why Cozart is being held back. Perhaps the Reds view him as one of their prime Trade Deadline chips, and don't want to risk tarnishing that chip by exposing him to ML pitching.

I hope this isn't the overriding concern of the front office. After all the turkeys we have endured at SS since Larkin retired, I would hate to see the Reds deal away the best SS prospect they have nurtured over this long and fruitless drought.

Wouldn't sit well with me to see that happen.

Ron Madden
06-18-2011, 05:09 AM
I'm with you on Cozart. The Reds already should have promoted him to the ML club, not only to reward his performance at Louisville but also given the unacceptably weak offense of Janish and Renteria. I don't have any problem keeping Janish around as a late-inning defender, but Renteria is a clear waste of a roster spot.

The only explanations I can see why Jocketty has dragged his feet on Cozart:

A. He's eyeing acquiring a SS before the trade deadline, say the Orioles' Hardy or in a blockbuster the Mets' Reyes, and doesn't want to call up Cozart for a cup of Joe.

B. He's still holding out hope that Janish can start to hit because if he does, he would be our ideal SS in light of his vacuum-tight defense.

I agee with everything in this post.

Tony Cloninger
06-18-2011, 09:58 AM
There is, of course, a third possible option why Cozart is being held back. Perhaps the Reds view him as one of their prime Trade Deadline chips, and don't want to risk tarnishing that chip by exposing him to ML pitching.

I hope this isn't the overriding concern of the front office. After all the turkeys we have endured at SS since Larkin retired, I would hate to see the Reds deal away the best SS prospect they have nurtured over this long and fruitless drought.

Wouldn't sit well with me to see that happen.


Stating the obvious......the scouts and Walt would know better than I , how well Cozart could do up here....but are they seriously thinking that Cozart is not that good of a player, unable to hit or field well enough to replace the 2 they have now?

Always Red
06-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Stating the obvious......the scouts and Walt would know better than I , how well Cozart could do up here....but are they seriously thinking that Cozart is not that good of a player, unable to hit or field well enough to replace the 2 they have now?

It's pretty clear to me that Dusty himself would rather go with flawed known players ("Dusty's guys") rather than depend upon players that have not played for him. Dusty has watched Renteria play for his entire career, and Janish has played SS for him for parts of 4 years now- they are both known quantities to Dusty, as is Jonny Gomes, for all his flaws.

I agree with you as it pertains specifically to Cozart, but we have seen since Dusty has been here (Corey Patterson comes to mind) that Dusty will stick with a vet through thick and thin, patiently waiting for him to produce. As it turns out, Dusty was (eventually) right about Corey Patterson, he has done a very nice job for the Jays- but he was certainly awful during his time with the Reds. Though he did play (IMO) the best defensive CF this town had seen in some time.

One of Dusty's strengths is his faith in "his guys", they love him and will run through walls for him. There is a lot of value in that, value that is hard to measure.

I really think that some of this is a tug of war between the front office and the guy who makes on field decisions- the manager, Johnny B Baker. Dusty does know the stats, and Dusty sees everything, but he also has faith in his guys that they will produce for him as they have in the past.

I agree with you, it's up to Walt and the FO to take those poor options away from Dusty, if he can't help himself.

It certainly should be an easy decision to release or trade ER and bring up Cozart for him to split time with Janish. Renteria, circa 2011, currently has all the range and glove of Rich Aurelia (circa 2006), without the bat. And at least Janish can play an above average defense, even if he is Mark Belanger with the stick.

Kc61
06-18-2011, 02:22 PM
I remember when Cozart was drafted. Roundly booed on RedsZone. Viewed as another good field no hit shortstop. That selection was almost universally disliked.

Glad we all proved to be wrong on that one. So far.

He's now the darling of RedsZone, and deservedly so.

edabbs44
06-18-2011, 02:26 PM
If Cozart is what people think he is, then what exactly would they need PJ for?

CrackerJack
06-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Dusty will not stand for Renteria's feelings being hurt.

IslandRed
06-18-2011, 02:37 PM
Dusty will not stand for Renteria's feelings being hurt.

If he was that concerned about Renteria's feelings, Renteria would be playing more. :cool:

mth123
06-18-2011, 02:51 PM
If Cozart is what people think he is, then what exactly would they need PJ for?

AAA insurance IMO. No reason to have an all field IF guy on this bench. The Reds already have Gold Glovers at 2B and 3B. Cozart's high .800s OPS has started the call for him, but he's still a defense first SS.

Personally, I'd cut Renteria loose and option Janish and bring up both Cozart and either Alonso or Hermida to platoon with Gomes.

They still need to trade for a starter if they can get one.

mth123
06-18-2011, 03:17 PM
Also, the next road trip will be to Tampa Bay and Baltimore. The Reds get to use the DH and those happen to be two of the teams with no long term answer at 1B. Adding Alonso and getting his bat in there every day might be a huge step toward cashing him in as a way to improve the team overall.

Ron Madden
06-18-2011, 03:53 PM
If Cozart is what people think he is, then what exactly would they need PJ for?

Back up SS and utility INF, if Juan Castro could hold that job for so many years no reason Janish can't do it too.

IslandRed
06-18-2011, 05:25 PM
I kind of agree with Ron. Even though Cozart won't need a defensive caddy, he will need the occasional day off, and we're in the National League where he might need to be double-switched out of a game now and then. Someone on the roster needs to be able to play an acceptable shortstop for an inning or five, or a day or two, without causing a bunch of roster shuffling or lineup weirdness. At this point in his career, I don't think Cairo counts, if he ever did. So I don't see them jettisoning Janish and Renteria at the same time.

edabbs44
06-18-2011, 06:38 PM
Back up SS and utility INF, if Juan Castro could hold that job for so many years no reason Janish can't do it too.

Castro held the spot on losing teams. This is different.

jojo
06-18-2011, 09:12 PM
Walt should trade for Troy Tulowitzki.

cinreds21
06-19-2011, 12:03 AM
I highly doubt they'd send Janish down. They'd like, however, get rid of Renteria and have Janish the backup infielder with Cozy starting.

cinreds21
06-19-2011, 12:03 AM
Walt should trade for Troy Tulowitzki.

Are you being serious?

Ron Madden
06-19-2011, 12:07 AM
Castro held the spot on losing teams. This is different.

You gotta be kiddin' me.

Patrick Bateman
06-19-2011, 12:08 AM
Are you being serious?

Obviously tounge in cheek.

cinreds21
06-19-2011, 12:09 AM
Walt should trade for Troy Tulowitzki.


Obviously tounge in cheek.

I was hoping so.

edabbs44
06-19-2011, 07:57 AM
You gotta be kiddin' me.

The Reds should use a roster spot on an all field, no hit SS when your proposed starter sounds like he doesn't need a defensive replacement? And the reasoning is that Juan Castro has been a backup for all these years, why can't Janish be?

Call up Cozart, stick with the roster flexibility and send Janish down for a few weeks before cutting Edgar loose. Lord knows his performance at the plate has warranted a trip to the minors for some work.

Tony Cloninger
06-19-2011, 11:30 AM
Maybe they are waiting until September so when the rosters expand they can make that September run .... that could boost ticket sales for next year and show everyone how close they are.

OldXOhio
06-22-2011, 09:58 AM
Looks like Walt has at least inquired about Ludwick...

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/phillies_mariners_reds_interested_in_padres_ludwic k/5171686

Will M
06-23-2011, 02:02 PM
the Reds need a DH for the next 6 games. i'd call up Alonso (in addition to Cozart)

Guacarock
06-25-2011, 03:21 PM
MLB Trade Rumors reports:

•Jeff Zrebiec of The Baltimore Sun mentioned that Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail and Reds GM Walt Jocketty have swung trades in the past and spent some time together yesterday before their clubs played. He notes that the two clubs appear to match up well in a potential trade as well.

Here's the link:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/06/quick-hits-giants-cubs-orioles-reds.html#disqus_thread

By the way, in his notes, Zrebiec speculates that the Reds' targets are likely Guthrie and Hardy, while the O's could have an interest in Alonso, Cozart and Frazier.

cinreds21
06-25-2011, 03:43 PM
I just don't think JJ is worth giving up any of them.

Brutus
06-25-2011, 03:50 PM
I just don't think JJ is worth giving up any of them.

Hardy alone is nearly a 4-win upgrade over what the Reds are getting at the position right now. To put that into context, Cliff Lee would have been about a 4.5 to 5-win upgrade last year if they'd acquired him.

I actually think a haul of Hardy & Guthrie would be worth giving up one or two of them.

Kc61
06-25-2011, 04:22 PM
I just don't think JJ is worth giving up any of them.

JJ is 28 with a .905 OPS.
Guthrie is 32 with an ERA in the high 3s. (Bad W-L record though.)
Both play in a very tough division.

Presumably the Birds would want a pitcher, a shortstop, and at least one more good prospect.

Reds would (should IMO) give up Travis Wood, Cozart, Alonso, and another minor leaguer, say a LaMarre or a Fellhauer for that package.

I would be less interested if the Birds wanted Bailey and/or Grandal in the deal.

But for Wood, Cozart, Alonso and a lower level minor leaguer, I'd make the deal. I might try to get a decent prospect back from the O's.

Only caveat - I assume JJ and Guthrie are signed for more than this year. I wouldn't make the deal for a rental.

Guacarock
06-25-2011, 04:40 PM
But for Wood, Cozart, Alonso and a lower level minor leaguer, I'd make the deal. I might try to get a decent prospect back from the O's.

Only caveat - I assume JJ and Guthrie are signed for more than this year. I wouldn't make the deal for a rental.

Guthrie is signed for 2012, but Hardy is not. I agree with you. If he's coming to us as a rental player, the return package can't be as sweet.

So, the Reds should ask for a window of opportunity to work a 1- or 2-year contract extension with JJ. Assuming that gets done and the O's are willing to pick up a good chunk of Guthrie and Hardy's remaining salaries for 2011, then trading them Wood, Cozart, Alonso and a lower level minor leaguer makes sense.

But if Hardy is simply a rental and can become a free agent after 2011, we'll need to make some adjustments, perhaps removing Cozart from the equation or substituting someone like D Train for Wood.

membengal
06-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Guthrie + hardy new contract is serious coin. Like $14 million combined serious coin. If they have that to spend all of a sudden...why would guthrie/hardy be the target? Why not spend that money on a serious rotation hammer?

Brutus
06-25-2011, 05:05 PM
Guthrie + hardy new contract is serious coin. Like $14 million combined serious coin. If they have that to spend all of a sudden...why would guthrie/hardy be the target? Why not spend that money on a serious rotation hammer?

The problem is, what serious "rotation hammer" do you know that is available for trade right now?

I'm with you in that there are guys out there that excite me much more than Guthrie. But to get a shortstop and a decent pitcher in the same trade would be a pretty nice luxury given the options available right now.

reds44
06-25-2011, 05:13 PM
The problem is, what serious "rotation hammer" do you know that is available for trade right now?

I'm with you in that there are guys out there that excite me much more than Guthrie. But to get a shortstop and a decent pitcher in the same trade would be a pretty nice luxury given the options available right now.
There's still a month left before the deadline. Volquez is a big problem, but the Reds pitching is not it's problem right now.

They need a SS. A good SS.

membengal
06-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Have no idea. But I hate the idea of spending that kind of money on guthrie/hardy if it takes them out of running for said arm when one comes available. Supposedly they didn't have the money for grienke last winter and would now burn it on guthrie/hardy? I would really be frustrated at that.

Additionally, I think a lot of people are over-rating guthrie.

757690
06-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Hardy is playing way, way above his head offensively, and it doesn't seem to be sustainable. His BABIP is around .40 points above his career average.

Maybe he continues it for the rest of the season, but it's a risk. I'm not against getting him, but considering he's a three month rental with a big salary, he shouldn't cost much in terms of prospects.

Getting Guthrie and Hardy for Wood and spare parts wouldn't be a bad move, but it wouldn't be my first option to improve the team, and I wouldn't offer more than that.

mth123
06-25-2011, 06:09 PM
I love the idea of Guthrie and Hardy (and Luke Scott too) around a package centered on Alonso, but I would not Include Wood or Cozart. If they have interest in Volquez and spare parts along with Alonso, I'd do that. If they insist on a SS, I'd offer Renteria and ask for less money. They are going to go with Machado in 2012 anyway. I doubt a SS of the future is what they are looking for. They may want Heisey or Sappelt, but I'd think long and hard.

Alonso, Volquez, Renteria and a couple of lesser lights (Say Valaika and Jordan Smith) for Guthrie and Hardy and significant money. If they want to add a fully paid Luke Scott, I'd add Francisco.

Brutus
06-25-2011, 06:14 PM
Hardy is playing way, way above his head offensively, and it doesn't seem to be sustainable. His BABIP is around .40 points above his career average.

Maybe he continues it for the rest of the season, but it's a risk. I'm not against getting him, but considering he's a three month rental with a big salary, he shouldn't cost much in terms of prospects.

Getting Guthrie and Hardy for Wood and spare parts wouldn't be a bad move, but it wouldn't be my first option to improve the team, and I wouldn't offer more than that.

Even if he reverts back to what he's done for his career, he's an above-average shortstop offensively, especially given the OPS for shortstops the past few years is well under .700 (he's .757 for his career).

There's no question he's not going to continue hitting at a .390 wOBA clip, as he is now, considering he's got an inflated BIP rate. But he's still a very good hitter, especially for his position, and the 2007/2008 version of Hardy would give the Reds a huge boost.



Have no idea. But I hate the idea of spending that kind of money on guthrie/hardy if it takes them out of running for said arm when one comes available. Supposedly they didn't have the money for grienke last winter and would now burn it on guthrie/hardy? I would really be frustrated at that.

Additionally, I think a lot of people are over-rating guthrie.

I'm lukewarm on Guthrie. There are guys that might be available that I'd much rather have (John Danks is the main one, as I don't believe James Shields or Francisco Liriano will be available). But if included in a package that included Hardy, the Reds quantitatively would be upgrading their roster by as many as 3-5 wins over the second half of the year, based on their expected production levels going forward. That might be enough to get them over the hump.

I share your belief that Guthrie is perhaps a bit overrated, but he's a solid pitcher with a spectacular walk rate and would be a fourth guy that might give the Reds good, above-average innings (Cueto, Leake and Arroyo). When Bailey gets back, if he stays healthy, that would be a solid five-man rotation. It would still lack the true ace, but I guess baby steps are necessary for now.

AmarilloRed
06-25-2011, 06:28 PM
I'd hold off on the trade until the Orioles give Hardy that multi-year extension they're presently pursuing with him.I'm also not sure if we want to pursue a trade for Hardy when we don't know how good Cozart can be at the MLB level.

Guacarock
06-25-2011, 06:31 PM
I hate the idea of spending that kind of money on guthrie/hardy if it takes them out of running for said arm when one comes available. Supposedly they didn't have the money for grienke last winter and would now burn it on guthrie/hardy? I would really be frustrated at that.

Additionally, I think a lot of people are over-rating guthrie.

If we can upgrade the starting pitching and stabilize SS, the odds greatly increase that we can take the NL Central again this season and advance to the playoffs a second year in a row. But if we don't stabilize SS, we probably aren't playoff bound, even if we went out and overpaid for a smoking hammer to anchor the rotation.

Admittedly, Guthrie is far from being a smoking hammer, but let's compare him with Volquez, our opening day starter and the fellow that Guthrie would most likely replace in the rotation. Guthrie has a 3.79 ERA, Volquez 5.77. Guthrie has thrown 97 innings, Volquez 73. Guthrie has two complete games and averages close to 7 innings per start, while Volquez is barely averaging 5 innings a start and has zero complete games (only one Red has gone the distance this season, Cueto, and that was on one occasion). Finally, Guthrie has yielded 20 walks, Volquez 50. Add these aggregate stats up any way you want and the conclusion is irrefutable: Replace Volquez with Guthrie and we have taken a concrete, decisive step toward upgrading the rotation.

Similarly, Hardy would be a serious improvement at SS, turning around what's been an offensive sinkhole into a position that could well serve as a catalyst. The fact that Hardy can lead off makes him doubly attractive, given Stubbs' streaky tendencies, and how cold he's been running lately. Batting first this season, Hardy is hitting .359/.408/.703/1.112, with 7 doubles and 5 home runs in 64 ABs.

If we get Guthrie and Hardy, are we likely to advance deep into the playoffs? Possibly, but not likely. To do that, we would probably need the kind of Gold Standard arm you are coveting. We had chance or two in the offseason to get such an arm, but we passed on the opportunity. Currently, there is no such arm in sight, meaning that even if one "miraculously" materialized in the 11th hour of the trading deadline, say the Rays' James Shields, we would no doubt have to offer up an arm, a leg and a bounty of prized prospects to acquire him. That doesn't strike me as a particularly prudent route to go because, sans a SS upgrade, we might not make the playoffs anyway, and minus our treasure trove of prospects, where are we going to be in 2012 and 2013?

In sum, even if neither Guthrie or Hardy is the sexiest player in MLB, even if neither of them is a Lincecum or a Reyes, if we can get them for the right price (without mortgaging our future) and they help us get into the playoffs again, then this might be the best of all possible one-stop, one-shop deals out there. I'm a little down on Jocketty right now for his inactivity last winter and so far this season, but he did get us into the playoffs in 2010 (by having the foresight to pick up Rolen the year before) and if Walt gets us into the playoffs once more, I'd gladly eat the crow and admit I was premature and wrong to doubt him.

Guacarock
06-25-2011, 07:23 PM
I love the idea of Guthrie and Hardy (and Luke Scott too) around a package centered on Alonso, but I would not Include Wood or Cozart. If they have interest in Volquez and spare parts along with Alonso, I'd do that. If they insist on a SS, I'd offer Renteria and ask for less money. They are going to go with Machado in 2012 anyway. I doubt a SS of the future is what they are looking for. They may want Heisey or Sappelt, but I'd think long and hard.

Machado won't be ready until at least 2013 or 2014, so the O's probably would want Cozart to bridge the gap. Machado doesn't turn 19 until July and he's just been promoted to the O's High A Frederick Keys team after opening the season, his first full professional season, with the O's Low A Delmarva team. He's looking good, and clearly is the team's SS of the future, but Orioles Insider says "it's still too early to project when he might debut at Camden Yards."

Kc61
06-25-2011, 07:48 PM
I don't see the O's being interested in Renteria, or possibly even Volquez who has had a terrible year.

Then again, if Hardy is an impending free agent, they can't expect too much for him.

I still think it would take a few meaningful prospects. Wonder if the Reds would give good prospects up for a Hardy rental.

We'll find out, I guess.

All this may mean that the Red are keeping Cozart in the minors as a trade piece for a veteran shortstop. Reading between the lines.

OldXOhio
06-25-2011, 08:02 PM
All this may mean that the Red are keeping Cozart in the minors as a trade piece for a veteran shortstop. Reading between the lines.

I think this makes as much sense as any of the reasons why Walt's been reluctant to call Cozart up. The risk of exposing his weaknesses to major league pitching is greater than that which is incurred by continuing to play Janish. If his value is deemed as trade bait that is.

mth123
06-25-2011, 08:27 PM
Machado won't be ready until at least 2013 or 2014, so the O's probably would want Cozart to bridge the gap. Machado doesn't turn 19 until July and he's just been promoted to the O's High A Frederick Keys team after opening the season, his first full professional season, with the O's Low A Delmarva team. He's looking good, and clearly is the team's SS of the future, but Orioles Insider says "it's still too early to project when he might debut at Camden Yards."

If they need a stopgap, they can have Janish.

Slyder
06-25-2011, 09:00 PM
I think the most obvious line of questions should be the following:

Is Edgar Renteria hitting? No
Can he play other positions? Refused to look at 2b and 3b I believe. Considering the fact in his career he's only played 1 game at a position OTHER than SS I would believe that to the be the case.
Can he field his position? Again the answer is no.

About the only thing he can do is flash the rings he won elsewhere because he adds NOTHING to the on field product. This is about as basic of a move Walt could do. At least with Cozart he can field his position. Its something that should have been done WEEKS ago.

This BASIC move would at least show fans that the GM and franchise is paying attention. IMO.

Kc61
06-25-2011, 09:02 PM
Orioles GM on tv says team needs bullpen help.

Will M
06-25-2011, 09:54 PM
I guess that I have to buy into the logic that the Reds haven't called up Cozart as to not hurt his trade value. Yet don't other teams see that the Reds won't call him up? To me as a potential buyer of Cozart that is a red flag.

I believe that money is a big reason why the Reds have not done anything & going forward will probably not do much. If Hardy makes $6M/year & the Reds get him now vs late July thats an extra $1M the team would have to pay him. Call me a Debbie Downer but thats what I suspect. Bob/Walt could prove me wrong and I'd be very happy if they did. However, right now the ball is in their court. Unfortunately they are in the locker room.

Brutus
06-25-2011, 09:58 PM
I guess that I have to buy into the logic that the Reds haven't called up Cozart as to not hurt his trade value. Yet don't other teams see that the Reds won't call him up? To me as a potential buyer of Cozart that is a red flag.

I believe that money is a big reason why the Reds have not done anything & going forward will probably not do much. If Hardy makes $6M/year & the Reds get him now vs late July thats an extra $1M the team would have to pay him. Call me a Debbie Downer but thats what I suspect. Bob/Walt could prove me wrong and I'd be very happy if they did. However, right now the ball is in their court. Unfortunately they are in the locker room.

Teams might see through it, but as long as he keeps hitting well in AAA, it's left to their imagination how he'll project. But when a guy continues hitting over .800, it's going to be intriguing even if your scouts are lukewarm.

But if you put a kid in the big leagues and he starts struggling, it's going to naturally diminish his value even if consciously you can differentiate his potential from production.

I don't think it's a big secret if that's what the Reds are doing. They're not trying to fool anyone. But they want to leave the guesswork to it and let some teams believe in whatever ceiling they have for him.

nemesis
06-26-2011, 12:23 AM
I think you have to focus on what fits Baltimore and their needs. Hardy is a fan popular player and most fans out there believe they are one year away from contending. Dealing Hardy for parts vs resigning him would be a step in the wrong direction as far as fan relations go. Keeping him and failing to resign him would be a better move. At the least he will be a type B FA. Possibly an A. That has huge value to a team like them who drafts very well. I am sure it will be a consideration during trade talks. The negotiated price will start with Alonso and Boxberger and go from there. Just for Hardy. Dumping Volquez now would be selling low and not something Walt does to often. As long as they can keep sending him down to AAA, he isn't going anywhere.

Guacarock
06-26-2011, 01:23 AM
I think you have to focus on what fits Baltimore and their needs. Hardy is a fan popular player and most fans out there believe they are one year away from contending. Dealing Hardy for parts vs resigning him would be a step in the wrong direction as far as fan relations go. Keeping him and failing to resign him would be a better move. At the least he will be a type B FA. Possibly an A. That has huge value to a team like them who drafts very well. I am sure it will be a consideration during trade talks. The negotiated price will start with Alonso and Boxberger and go from there. Just for Hardy. Dumping Volquez now would be selling low and not something Walt does to often. As long as they can keep sending him down to AAA, he isn't going anywhere.

I also don't see Volquez factoring into any discussions with the O's. They aren't going to want him after his down season in '11, and we won't be inclined to move him, either, when his value is this low.

He has been frustrating and disappointing, but the one saving grace: He's not going to command top dollar for '12. They say, after Tommy John surgery, pitchers often come back stronger and with their dazzling stuff intact, but take more time to regain their command.

Hopefully, that's the case for Volquez. Would be sweet if he re-emerges much more dominant in '12. Maybe he'll still be a little wild (he's always been), but if he can harness his enormous talent, he could remain a true asset for us, particularly at a low-enough price to justify continuing to hold out hope for his full recovery.

Will M
06-26-2011, 01:36 AM
I also don't see Volquez factoring into any discussions with the O's. They aren't going to want him after his down season in '11, and we won't be inclined to move him, either, when his value is this low.

He has been frustrating and disappointing, but the one saving grace: He's not going to command top dollar for '12. They say, after Tommy John surgery, pitchers often come back stronger and with their dazzling stuff intact, but take more time to regain their command.

Hopefully, that's the case for Volquez. Would be sweet if he re-emerges much more dominant in '12. Maybe he'll still be a little wild (he's always been), but if he can harness his enormous talent, he could remain a true asset for us, particularly at a low-enough price to justify continuing to hold out hope for his full recovery.

if the Reds wanted to get another arm (say in addition to upgrading SS & LF) then it is going to have to replace somebody in the rotation.
1) Cueto - in
2) Leake - in
3) Arroyo - in
4) Bailey - in if healthy
5) that leaves only Volquez or Wood to upgrade

Personally if somebody wants Volquez back in trade based on him fulfilling his potential then I say trade him. for one i have suspicions that this potential isn't ever going to be realized. also the Reds have certain key players (ie Joey) who may not be here in the near future. IMO 2011 is a year that the team needs to try to win, as opposed to playing for the future. they can do both. they don't have to go 'all in' this year. but playing it safe for 2012 & beyond isn't the move that i want to see. if Homer looks healthy tomorrow then I'd be happy if the team traded Edinson as part of a series of moves to improve the team.

CrackerJack
06-26-2011, 02:16 AM
All the conjecture, but Walt/Dusty will ride this team out until roster expansion and know they have the possible equivalent of adding at least two upgrades via trades in the form of their AAA bats. I can't see Mez behind the plate until next season though.

I agree with the notion that if anything, they really need another BP arm, which you would think they could get via a conservative trade.

Assume we're looking at another month + with the current roster, + Bailey if that situation ever pans out.

Not impressed with Aredondo at all, needs more seasoning...

Guacarock
06-26-2011, 02:42 AM
if the Reds wanted to get another arm (say in addition to upgrading SS & LF) then it is going to have to replace somebody in the rotation.
1) Cueto - in
2) Leake - in
3) Arroyo - in
4) Bailey - in if healthy
5) that leaves only Volquez or Wood to upgrade

Personally if somebody wants Volquez back in trade based on him fulfilling his potential then I say trade him. for one i have suspicions that this potential isn't ever going to be realized. also the Reds have certain key players (ie Joey) who may not be here in the near future. IMO 2011 is a year that the team needs to try to win, as opposed to playing for the future. they can do both. they don't have to go 'all in' this year. but playing it safe for 2012 & beyond isn't the move that i want to see. if Homer looks healthy tomorrow then I'd be happy if the team traded Edinson as part of a series of moves to improve the team.

If we get another arm, say the O's Guthrie, then yes, Volquez is the most likely candidate to get bumped from the rotation. Doesn't mean he'll be gone from the organization, though. He could easily be stashed at Louisville along with Wood and D Train. To compete, you need a few decent starting pitchers in reserve, as we have learned all too well this season after Bailey hit the DL twice, Cueto missed the first month, and both Volquez and Wood have seen time in AAA.

As for Joey, I don't see him going anywhere in 2011 or in 2012, when his annual salary escalates to $11.5 million. If we aren't in the hunt in 2012, though, he might get dangled that off-season, ahead of 2013 when he's due to make $19 million. If so, I suspect he would command a boatload of prospects allowing us to quickly regroup and compete again.

The long and short of this: I'm not opposed to moving Volquez if we find a proper suitor for him. But I am opposed to selling him low. Ditto Wood. Both are making below $2 million, so there are no urgent financial reasons compelling us to discard them. They should only go if the return clearly justifies it.

Big Klu
06-26-2011, 03:13 AM
I think the most obvious line of questions should be the following:

Is Edgar Renteria hitting? No
Can he play other positions? Refused to look at 2b and 3b I believe. Considering the fact in his career he's only played 1 game at a position OTHER than SS I would believe that to the be the case.
Can he field his position? Again the answer is no.

About the only thing he can do is flash the rings he won elsewhere because he adds NOTHING to the on field product. This is about as basic of a move Walt could do. At least with Cozart he can field his position. Its something that should have been done WEEKS ago.

This BASIC move would at least show fans that the GM and franchise is paying attention. IMO.

In the interest of full disclosure, this is no longer true. Coming into this season, Renteria had made only one appearance at a position other than SS--a one-inning stint at 1B for the Cardinals in 2001. However, he has made three appearances at 2B this season.

An interesting observation: Of his 17,657.2 career defensive innings, exactly 7 of them are at a position other than SS. (6 at 2B, 1 at 1B)

AmarilloRed
06-26-2011, 06:15 PM
After the recent comments by Walt about the SS position, I'm starting to get the feeling of Corey Patterson redux. It just seems Reds management always wants a player to hit total rock bottom before they'll make a change.

Guacarock
06-26-2011, 06:48 PM
After the recent comments by Walt about the SS position, I'm starting to get the feeling of Corey Patterson redux. It just seems Reds management always wants a player to hit total rock bottom before they'll make a change.

It's posturing, pure and simple. My hunch: The Reds are actively seeking a SS via trade, probably Hardy, but the O's are playing a little hardball and demanding too much in return, it being quite early in the trading season. Jocketty's saying he's satisfied because if he tells the truth -- and appears desperate -- he knows he'll get hosed.

Meanwhile, time's a wasting, and the team keeps losing and looking lethargic -- just like the senior management. Jocketty's problem is that he has tied his own hands in negotiations by taking such an adamant stance saying he's perfectly content with our existing shortstops. By doing so, he can't use the ace he has up his sleeve -- Cozart. Maybe Cozart isn't Reyes or Hardy, but he doesn't have to be. He only needs to flash a little D and hit a little better than Janish and Renteria. Bring him up posthaste and end the farce.

OldXOhio
06-26-2011, 06:54 PM
It's posturing, pure and simple. My hunch: The Reds are actively seeking a SS via trade, probably Hardy, but the O's are playing a little hardball and demanding too much in return, it being quite early in the trading season. Jocketty's saying he's satisfied because if he tells the truth -- and appears desperate -- he knows he'll get hosed.

Meanwhile, time's a wasting, and the team keeps losing and looking lethargic -- just like the senior management. Jocketty's problem is that he has tied his own hands in negotiations by taking such an adamant stance saying he's perfectly content with our existing shortstops. By doing so, he can't use the ace he has up his sleeve -- Cozart. Maybe Cozart isn't Reyes or Hardy, but he doesn't have to be. He only needs to flash a little D and hit a little better than Janish and Renteria. Bring him up posthaste and end the farce.

This is now the 2nd time WJ has commented publicly on the SS situation, no? First time a vote of confidence, the second a kiss of death?

I'll go with posturing for $200 Alex.

mth123
06-26-2011, 06:58 PM
It's posturing, pure and simple. My hunch: The Reds are actively seeking a SS via trade, probably Hardy, but the O's are playing a little hardball and demanding too much in return, it being quite early in the trading season. Jocketty's saying he's satisfied because if he tells the truth -- and appears desperate -- he knows he'll get hosed.

Meanwhile, time's a wasting, and the team keeps losing and looking lethargic -- just like the senior management. Jocketty's problem is that he has tied his own hands in negotiations by taking such an adamant stance saying he's perfectly content with our existing shortstops. By doing so, he can't use the ace he has up his sleeve -- Cozart. Maybe Cozart isn't Reyes or Hardy, but he doesn't have to be. He only needs to flash a little D and hit a little better than Janish and Renteria. Bring him up posthaste and end the farce.

I agree with all of this. What I don't get is why the Reds wouldn't want to give Cozart a look to see if he could provide the boost from within. This team has two needs that are even more urgent than SS IMO. They desperately need a starter that can go into the 6th or 7th innings most times through the rotation and they really need a bat for the 5 hole. If they had those, I could live with Janish and/or hopefully better internal options. Given the resources required for those other needs, you'd think that they may want to find out if they need to deal for a SS before the deadline comes and goes. If Cozart could be adequate, then the resources could go to those other areas. SS is the only glaring need on this team that has the possibility of an internal option IMO.

Guacarock
06-26-2011, 07:16 PM
I agree with all of this. What I don't get is why the Reds wouldn't want to give Cozart a look to see if he could provide the boost from within. This team has two needs that are even more urgent than SS IMO. They desperately need a starter that can go into the 6th or 7th innings most times through the rotation and they really need a bat for the 5 hole. If they had those, I could live with Janish and/or hopefully better internal options. Given the resources required for those other needs, you'd think that they may want to find out if they need to deal for a SS before the deadline comes and goes. If Cozart could be adequate, then the resources could go to those other areas. SS is the only glaring need on this team that has the possibility of an internal option IMO.

You have correctly identified our three glaring needs -- SS, an OF with punch to bat middle of the order and one additional rotational horse. I suspect you are also right that SS is the only one of those needs we can fill internally through promoting Cozart. But before going out and expending money and prospects acquiring these missing pieces, I would first try out our best internal options to see what exactly we've got and what we don't have.

Besides Cozart, I'd bring up D Train to replace Volquez over the next few weeks. It would be tough, roster-wise, but it also wouldn't be a bad idea to give Hermida an extended tryout in LF -- just to see if he could approach anywhere near his .362 BA at the ML level.

Maybe only one of these experiments bears fruit, if we're lucky two of them pan out. But what do we got to lose by trying? Plugging 1 or 2 holes at deadline time will be less painful and costly than plugging three.

And just the act of bringing up 2-3 guys from AAA can light a fire with the rest of the team. For all his lapses, Bowden knew that trick, and used it to his advantage more than once. The new regime just seems a little too slow, stodgy and conservative by comparison.

mth123
06-26-2011, 07:29 PM
You have correctly identified our three glaring needs -- SS, an OF with punch to bat middle of the order and one additional rotational horse. I suspect you are also right that SS is the only one of those needs we can fill internally through promoting Cozart. But before going out and expending money and prospects acquiring these missing pieces, I would first try out our best internal options to see what exactly we've got and what we don't have.

Besides Cozart, I'd bring up D Train to replace Volquez over the next few weeks. It would be tough, roster-wise, but it also wouldn't be a bad idea to give Hermida an extended tryout in LF -- just to see if he could approach anywhere near his .362 BA at the ML level.

Maybe only one of these experiments bears fruit, if we're lucky two of them pan out. But what do we got to lose by trying? Plugging 1 or 2 holes at deadline time will be less painful and costly than plugging three.

And just the act of bringing up 2-3 guys from AAA can light a fire with the rest of the team. For all his lapses, Bowden knew that trick, and used it to his advantage more than once. The new regime just seems a little too slow, stodgy and conservative by comparison.

I'd be OK with the idea of platooning Hermida and Gomes in the 5 hole for a while. I like Heisey, but he doesn't provide the oomph for the middle of the order. I think the Reds should consider Heisey playing more often in CF and even RF given the streaky nature of Stubbs and Bruce. Heisey could be a 400 AB 4th OF. Of course when somebody goes on a hot streak, the others would sit more often (including the platoon guys if Heisey himself is hot while Bruce and Stubbs aren't particularly cold). I know everyone wants Heisey to get his chance, and I agree that he could be a "league average" regular, but good teams have better players in the middle of the order.

I'd also be OK with giving Willis a shot, but I'd like some one dependable with more recent success. Lot of question marks in the rotation. They may need both Willis and an acquisition.

Guacarock
06-26-2011, 07:47 PM
I'd also be OK with giving Willis a shot, but I'd like some one dependable with more recent success. Lot of question marks in the rotation. They may need both Willis and an acquisition.

I hear ya. We've got a lot of promising young guns, but they can be erratic and do seem snakebit this season. Volquez still isn't quite ready for primetime. Bailey is barely back from his 2nd DL stint and who knows if he's ready. And Leake, as we saw last season, could hit a brickwall at any time and turn again into a pumpkin.

You're right. We might need both D Train and a ringer.

757690
06-26-2011, 07:55 PM
To be honest, as the season has progressed, I am shifting my position.

I now believe that by the trading deadline, and the sooner the better, the Reds should move some prospects for a veteran impact player.

This has worked time and time again throughout baseball history. Far too many examples to list, but we see it every year. Even if the trade is lopsided, and the players who the Reds trade go on to have a higher WAR than who the Reds get, this is what is needed to get the Reds into the playoffs and make them favorites to advance, so it would be worth it.

My only caveat is to not trade players that are believed to be an important part of the Reds future. So keep Mes, Chapman, and anyone else whose talent can't be replaced easily.

In the words of George Allen:

THE FUTURE IS NOW!

mth123
06-26-2011, 08:00 PM
To be honest, as the season has progressed, I am shifting my position.

I now believe that by the trading deadline, and the sooner the better, the Reds should move some prospects for a veteran impact player.

This has worked time and time again throughout baseball history. Far too many examples to list, but we see it every year. Even if the trade is lopsided, and the players who the Reds trade go on to have a higher WAR than who the Reds get, this is what is needed to get the Reds into the playoffs and make them favorites to advance, so it would be worth it.

My only caveat is to not trade players that are believed to be an important part of the Reds future. So keep Mes, Chapman, and anyone else whose talent can't be replaced easily.

In the words of George Allen:

THE FUTURE IS NOW!

Welcome. Prepare to be an outcast who is repeatedly told that the Reds have 6 superstars in the rotation and don't need any position players because we lead the league in runs scored. Oh yeah, Walt has won before and can't ever be wrong, Janish is the best defensive SS in the league, the check's in the mail and I promise to call you in the morning.

757690
06-26-2011, 08:05 PM
Welcome. Prepare to be an outcast who is repeatedly told that the Reds have 6 superstars in the rotation and don't need any position players because we lead the league in runs scored. Oh yeah, Walt has won before and can't ever be wrong, Janish is the best defensive SS in the league, the check's in the mail and I promise to call you in the morning.

LOL Thanks :beerme:

Orenda
06-26-2011, 08:21 PM
moves Walt should make:

1) find another left handed bullpen arm to compliment Bill Bray

2) Send Aroldis Chapman to the minors to start the rest of the season, you can always call him up late in the year to help in the bullpen.

3) cut ties with Edgar Renteria or send down Janish and call up Cozart. Cozart is a little bit of a free swinger but he makes contact and has pop, why can't he be a 15-20 hr 700 + OPS guy playing in GABP. That might not be ideal but it improves the club and keeps resources free to pursue a pitcher or a bat.

4) Get rid of Dusty Baker or just tell him to actually use a platoon in left field. Alternatives include finding a left fielder who can play everyday. Carlos Beltran hits well from both sides of the plate, this cures the Lefty Righty Lefty Righty conundrum.

5) I might consider moving one of the catchers and calling up Mesoraco.

6) Why not hit Jay Bruce 3rd and Joey Votto 4th? Votto is going to hold his own no matter where they put him and they have no other legitimate clean up type guys. Scott Rolen has a great track record but he is no longer a middle of the order guy imo. Walt could slip Dusty a note.

7) feel good knowing you didn't sell the farm for an overpriced name brand in a contract year.

mth123
06-26-2011, 08:25 PM
moves Walt should make:

1) find another left handed bullpen arm to compliment Bill Bray

2) Send Aroldis Chapman to the minors to start the rest of the season, you can always call him up late in the year to help in the bullpen.

3) cut ties with Edgar Renteria or send down Janish and call up Cozart. Cozart is a little bit of a free swinger but he makes contact and has pop, why can't he be a 15-20 hr 700 + OPS guy playing in GABP. That might not be ideal but it improves the club and keeps resources free to pursue a pitcher or a bat.

4) Get rid of Dusty Baker or just tell him to actually use a platoon in left field. Alternatives include finding a left fielder who can play everyday. Carlos Beltran hits well from both sides of the plate, this cures the Lefty Righty Lefty Righty conundrum.

5) I might consider moving one of the catchers and calling up Mesoraco.

6) Why not hit Jay Bruce 3rd and Joey Votto 4th? Votto is going to hold his own no matter where they put him and they have no other legitimate clean up type guys. Scott Rolen has a great track record but he is no longer a middle of the order guy imo. Walt could slip Dusty a note.

7) feel good knowing you didn't sell the farm for an overpriced name brand in a contract year.

I'm good with all of those moves but wouldn't acquiring Beltran contradict number 7? What about the rotation?

The Voice of IH
06-26-2011, 08:31 PM
I have been reading a lot about an Orioles trade for J.J. Hardy and Jeremy Guthrie. I am not sold on Guthrie (even after today) and feel that he will only clog the rotation even more.

But I am willing to take a flyer on Hardy. I feel that getting both players is what driving the cost up. But if we just trade for Hardy, I feel that we can get him for maybe a couple prospects (not top ones, maybe Frazier type). After all, he is just a rental but will help this team at a position that is turning into a sideshow.

Orenda
06-26-2011, 08:49 PM
I'm good with all of those moves but wouldn't acquiring Beltran contradict number 7? What about the rotation?

yeah possibly, it just depends what you give up. I think the Reds could still get get solid production out of left field using a platoon of in house options.

Call me crazy but I think they have the arms to keep them in games and advance to the playoffs. Although I'd agree that if they do make the playoffs they are missing another hammer to go along with Cueto. Here is a wild thought, trade AROLDIS CHAPMAN for an ace. He has one of the best left handed arms I've ever witnessed and he already has two plus plus pitches but he has been inconsistent and is in an organization that really hasn't had the most success churning out pitchers. He should be starting imo and that would mean that he probably wouldn't crack the rotation until some time next season. He also has all the hype and media attention that a team could find valuable.

Of course if they can get away with dealing one of Leake, Volquez, Wood, Bailey and another piece for an ace that would probably be more desirable.

mth123
06-26-2011, 09:20 PM
yeah possibly, it just depends what you give up. I think the Reds could still get get solid production out of left field using a platoon of in house options.

Call me crazy but I think they have the arms to keep them in games and advance to the playoffs. Although I'd agree that if they do make the playoffs they are missing another hammer to go along with Cueto. Here is a wild thought, trade AROLDIS CHAPMAN for an ace. He has one of the best left handed arms I've ever witnessed and he already has two plus plus pitches but he has been inconsistent and is in an organization that really hasn't had the most success churning out pitchers. He should be starting imo and that would mean that he probably wouldn't crack the rotation until some time next season. He also has all the hype and media attention that a team could find valuable.

Of course if they can get away with dealing one of Leake, Volquez, Wood, Bailey and another piece for an ace that would probably be more desirable.

1. If the Reds deal for Beltran at the deadline they still take on over $6 Million. If they do it now, its over $9 Million. The Reds can't do it and the Mets prime motivation would be dumping cash. To get the Mets to eat some of the money, the Reds would need to include some decent talent. Probably Leake or Wood. Maybe they'd take Volquez as a lottery ticket, but I'd doubt it. Unless the Reds have more money than they are admitting, they aren't getting him for Chris Valaika or some spare part of that ilk.

2. I'd deal Chapman for an Ace (a real ace) but I don't see a real ace becoming available.

3. Alonso is the prime trade chip IMO.

4. Where I disagree with most is that I think the reds are already short in the rotation. Volquez is killing them. He eats up the pen and causes the team to leave the guy after him in longer than they should. Yesterday was a prime exanple. Arroyo should probably have gone 5 Max. I have real doubts that Bailey will be around (think Rich Harden) and wonder about Leake and his uncharted IP waters by season's end. Wood is decent depth, but he could end the season as the number 3. I think any solid vet starter who becomes available should interest the Reds. The discussion has centered on Guthrie, but guys like Ted Lilly, Kevin Correia, Scott Baker, Francisco Liriano even Bruce Chen might be worth considering.

GADawg
06-26-2011, 09:39 PM
i still feel like a real leadoff man would solve alot of problems which is why I was on board with the Reyes backers...with that in mind is Sappelt still healthy down in AAA? Last I looked he has great numbers but I don't hear alot of people singing his praises. What am I missing? I'm probably the biggest Gomes fan here but I'm not opposed to seeing Sappelt up and leading off from LF.

OldXOhio
06-26-2011, 10:18 PM
Here's something Walt could do....he could take a look at the Reds record by month dating back one year:

June (mtd) 12-11
May 14-15
April 13-13
Sept '10 12-15
Aug '10 19-8
July '10 14-12

Outside of a good two week run in August last season, this team is so middle of the road mediocre, it almost makes you wonder why any of us had such high expectations going into this year. You need a reason to make a move Walt, how about this: your team just isn't very good. You want to win in 2011, do something soon. You want to play for the future, whenever that might be, I guess you continue to sit on your hands.

Dan
06-26-2011, 10:43 PM
4. Where I disagree with most is that I think the reds are already short in the rotation. Volquez is killing them. He eats up the pen and causes the team to leave the guy after him in longer than they should. Yesterday was a prime exanple. Arroyo should probably have gone 5 Max. I have real doubts that Bailey will be around (think Rich Harden) and wonder about Leake and his uncharted IP waters by season's end. Wood is decent depth, but he could end the season as the number 3. I think any solid vet starter who becomes available should interest the Reds. The discussion has centered on Guthrie, but guys like Ted Lilly, Kevin Correia, Scott Baker, Francisco Liriano even Bruce Chen might be worth considering.

The trade I want to see happen is Ramon Hernandez and prospect (Boxberger?) for Jonathan Sanchez. Sanchez is available and the Giants need the catching for the season but not for longer than that. Reds can bring up Mes and have a capable backup in Hannigan. Just makes too much sense.

Alonso for Guthrie I would consider too.

mth123
06-26-2011, 11:01 PM
The trade I want to see happen is Ramon Hernandez and prospect (Boxberger?) for Jonathan Sanchez. Sanchez is available and the Giants need the catching for the season but not for longer than that. Reds can bring up Mes and have a capable backup in Hannigan. Just makes too much sense.

Alonso for Guthrie I would consider too.

I've always liked Sanchez, but he's looking like Volquez right now. The Parks out west are pretty forgiving. I wonder how that 5.9 BB/9 would play in GABP. I don't think I'd give up Ramon for him at this point.

cinreds21
06-26-2011, 11:08 PM
I've never liked Sanchez. Box really doesn't need to be traded. He's filthy. He will be in the big leagues sometime next year and will be an amazing setup guy to whoever is the 2012 closer. Trust me, you don't want to get rid of him. Especially for an inconsistent Sanchez.

mth123
06-26-2011, 11:24 PM
I like the Dodgers as a trade partner. They could use Alonso (James Loney isn't very good as 1B bats go). I noted Ted Lilly in an earlier post, but he has a full no trade. Anybody like Hiroki Kuroda? Lots of Grounders and 3 and a half seasons of pretty darned good. He makes decent money and the Reds would need the Dodgers to pay some, but LA could then deal Loney to save more cash. I think guys coming from pitchers parks like Oakland, LA, SD and SF are a bit of a crapshoot. Hard to tell how they would perform in a place like GABP. You'd think the grounders would make it a non-issue, but he still gives up 1.1 HR/9. I wonder how much that would go up in GABP and the NL Central homer havens.

Do the Reds have a catcher that speaks Japanese?

Benihana
06-27-2011, 02:56 PM
I like the Dodgers as a trade partner. They could use Alonso (James Loney isn't very good as 1B bats go). I noted Ted Lilly in an earlier post, but he has a full no trade. Anybody like Hiroki Kuroda? Lots of Grounders and 3 and a half seasons of pretty darned good. He makes decent money and the Reds would need the Dodgers to pay some, but LA could then deal Loney to save more cash. I think guys coming from pitchers parks like Oakland, LA, SD and SF are a bit of a crapshoot. Hard to tell how they would perform in a place like GABP. You'd think the grounders would make it a non-issue, but he still gives up 1.1 HR/9. I wonder how much that would go up in GABP and the NL Central homer havens.

Do the Reds have a catcher that speaks Japanese?

I like the Dodgers as a trade partner too, although I'm not sure MLB will let them do anything significant at this point. Kuroda would be OK, although I'd prefer Billingsley, Kemp/Ethier, and Furcal as potential acquisitions first.

Meanwhile, the Rangers continue to operate as the Reds should (now reportedly pursuing Beltran according to Jon Heyman). They are quickly becoming a model franchise IMO.

I'm getting close to the point of losing interest in this team until a significant move is made. I've been sick of the status quo for some time now (dating back to last year's trade deadline), but this is getting almost absurd. If the Reds don't gain significant ground by the break, and no moves are made to significantly upgrade SS, LF, or the rotation, I am going to focus my attention elsewhere for the duration of the Summer.

cinreds21
06-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Furcal can be had for almost nothing. Kemp and Ethier are not going anywhere.

Benihana
06-27-2011, 03:05 PM
Furcal can be had for almost nothing.

So can Cozart. Apparently, that doesn't mean he'll be playing SS in Cincinnati anytime soon...

cinreds21
06-27-2011, 03:10 PM
So can Cozart. Apparently, that doesn't mean he'll be playing SS in Cincinnati anytime soon...

Yea. I still don't get it. Oh well.

corkedbat
06-27-2011, 03:40 PM
Yea. I still don't get it. Oh well.

I'd like to see Cozart and Sappelt or Hermide get an audition before the deadline to see what they offer and see where we need to look at the deadline.

mdccclxix
06-27-2011, 04:08 PM
In another universe, the Reds might have not signed Gomes or Lewis and we could have had a Heisey / Hermidia platoon. No loss there. Perhaps Alonso or Francisco as the power lefty on the bench.

Far East
06-27-2011, 06:01 PM
I kind of agree with Ron. Even though Cozart won't need a defensive caddy, he will need the occasional day off, and we're in the National League where he might need to be double-switched out of a game now and then. Someone on the roster needs to be able to play an acceptable shortstop for an inning or five, or a day or two, without causing a bunch of roster shuffling or lineup weirdness. At this point in his career, I don't think Cairo counts, if he ever did. So I don't see them jettisoning Janish and Renteria at the same time.

At age 37, Cairo, IMHO, could give "an inning or five, or a day or two."

The defense compared to Janish or Renteria would suffer, but Cairo at least is
hitting .278/.339/.400.

Perhaps Dusty should be giving Cairo (even with his corner IF range) a day or two per week at SS right now.

Gallen5862
06-27-2011, 09:06 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Indians Designate Adam Everett For Assignment
By Tim Dierkes [June 27 at 2:00pm CST]
The Indians designated infielder Adam Everett for assignment, reports MLB.com's Jordan Bastian. Everett isn't sure of his next step, and retirement is possible. Everett, 34, hit .217/.277/.233 in 67 plate appearances for the Indians, but he was brought aboard for his exceptional defensive abilities. Primarily a shortstop in his career, Everett played more third and second base for the Indians this year.

Gallen5862
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?

IslandRed
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
At age 37, Cairo, IMHO, could give "an inning or five, or a day or two."

The defense compared to Janish or Renteria would suffer, but Cairo at least is
hitting .278/.339/.400.

Perhaps Dusty should be giving Cairo (even with his corner IF range) a day or two per week at SS right now.

"Suffer" would be an understatement. When a guy doesn't play shortstop even when he's young enough to play shortstop, he can't play shortstop. I mean, if we're going to that degree of range-doesn't-matter where the backup is concerned, may as well let Todd Frazier have that job.

Hmmm.... :cool:

mth123
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?

Heck no.

Superdude
06-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?

I thought that was an example of what we should do to Renteria. What are we gonna do with Everett?

reds44
06-27-2011, 09:38 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?
Somebody needs to backup Cozart in AAA.

REDREAD
06-28-2011, 12:25 PM
Guthrie + hardy new contract is serious coin. Like $14 million combined serious coin. If they have that to spend all of a sudden...why would guthrie/hardy be the target? Why not spend that money on a serious rotation hammer?

That's a solid point.. I would say that if the Reds do get Hardy, it's strictly a rental.

The Reds apparently didn't want to sign Hardy in the offseason.
The Reds also did not have a lot of money to throw around last offseason.
I can't see 14 million suddenly becoming available to lock up these guys.

My hope is that Hardy can be picked up as a rental. I really question whether the Reds would be willing to ante up Wood or Homer to get a more expensive (although more consistent) pitcher like Guthrie.. Because that's what it's going to take.. It also makes sense.. if the Reds add Guthrie, they really need to trade off one of the younger pitchers (no room on the roster).

Benihana
06-28-2011, 12:57 PM
That's a solid point.. I would say that if the Reds do get Hardy, it's strictly a rental.

The Reds apparently didn't want to sign Hardy in the offseason.
The Reds also did not have a lot of money to throw around last offseason.
I can't see 14 million suddenly becoming available to lock up these guys.

My hope is that Hardy can be picked up as a rental. I really question whether the Reds would be willing to ante up Wood or Homer to get a more expensive (although more consistent) pitcher like Guthrie.. Because that's what it's going to take.. It also makes sense.. if the Reds add Guthrie, they really need to trade off one of the younger pitchers (no room on the roster).


Disagree. I think the O's want Alonso first and foremost. They already have Britton, Tillman, Matusz, and Arrieta. Other than Jones and Markakis (who is slumping this year), they don't really have any bats for the next few years. Of course every team will always take extra pitching, but I don't think they'd demand Homer or even Wood.

membengal
06-28-2011, 01:03 PM
Tillman is scuffling in AAA after again being overmatched in the bigs to start the year. His velocity was topping out at 87-90 when sent back down. He is far from a sure thing and may not even qualify as a prospect at this point. They are really down on him. Matusz's velocity is also down and his command is awol. They are worried there is something wrong.

Make no mistake. The orioles would still welcome pitching.

Benihana
06-28-2011, 01:12 PM
Tillman is scuffling in AAA after again being overmatched in the bigs to start the year. His velocity was topping out at 87-90 when sent back down. He is far from a sure thing and may not even qualify as a prospect at this point. They are really down on him. Matusz's velocity is also down and his command is awol. They are worried there is something wrong.

Make no mistake. The orioles would still welcome pitching.

Of course they would. Every team would. But I think they have bigger fish to fry at the moment, and need all the bats they can get.

Homer Bailey
06-28-2011, 01:14 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?

No way.

Far East
06-28-2011, 07:35 PM
...When a guy doesn't play shortstop even when he's young enough to play shortstop, he can't play shortstop...Hmmm.... :cool:
64 big league games at SS, although mostly late 1990's to mid 2000's

Guacarock
06-30-2011, 03:52 PM
Jocketty hints that he might be more open to AAA callups as the trade deadline approaches and few teams appear willing to move players. The money quote:

"My first priority would probably be to go from within the organization before we go outside," Jocketty said. "It makes more sense, both from the standpoint that the guys have worked hard and deserve an opportunity, but also economically, it makes more sense."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110629&content_id=21189080&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

OesterPoster
06-30-2011, 04:06 PM
I just read those same quotes in the Sheldon article, and you have to wonder when Jocketty plans on tapping the AAA resources. We've only got 26 games remaining before the trade deadline. I'd think you would want to see what you've got for a couple weeks, if you call up a Cozart or an Alonso, or a Sappelt.

Dan
06-30-2011, 06:56 PM
You know, there may be another reason why he won't call up the AAA guys. If you think about it, as long as they're productive in AAA, they're valuable prospects to use as trading chips. If they get called up and fall flat on their faces, they lose that value.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-30-2011, 07:54 PM
You know, there may be another reason why he won't call up the AAA guys. If you think about it, as long as they're productive in AAA, they're valuable prospects to use as trading chips. If they get called up and fall flat on their faces, they lose that value.

But if they come up here and rip it for a week (ala Jay Bruce's first week in the bigs), then you can up the price.

11larkin11
06-30-2011, 08:44 PM
Somebody needs to backup Janish in AAA.

FIFY

I(heart)Freel
06-30-2011, 08:56 PM
You know, there may be another reason why he won't call up the AAA guys. If you think about it, as long as they're productive in AAA, they're valuable prospects to use as trading chips. If they get called up and fall flat on their faces, they lose that value.

I respect that opinion, but Cozart isn't going anywhere in a trade. He's the only backup plan for Janish falling on his face this and next year. The Reds will resist using him in a deal unles it's a deal-breaker. This includes a trade for Rental Reyes (which remains extremely unlikely) because the Reds would still need SS help in 2012 and 13.

Your theory certainly could apply to the OFers though, who may or may not be critical to the Reds future plans.

RedsManRick
06-30-2011, 09:24 PM
I respect that opinion, but Cozart isn't going anywhere in a trade. He's the only backup plan for Janish falling on his face this and next year. The Reds will resist using him in a deal unles it's a deal-breaker. This includes a trade for Rental Reyes (which remains extremely unlikely) because the Reds would still need SS help in 2012 and 13.

Your theory certainly could apply to the OFers though, who may or may not be critical to the Reds future plans.

If the Reds are set on acquiring Reyes, do you really think Jocketty would let the deal fall apart because of Cozart? I'm with you, they probably would like to hang on to him. But I don't think he'd be a deal-breaker.

GAC
07-01-2011, 05:55 AM
I agree with the following from the Sheldon article.....


as the July 31 non-waiver Trade Deadline approaches, it's historically been a good time to make upgrades to boost a club.

Sometimes that's easier said than done, especially with the current landscape.

"Right now, I was talking to our scouts, it's very quiet," Jocketty said. "There's little talk going on. The GMs I've talked to have said the same thing. There's not much happening."

Blame parity, as 20 Major League clubs are currently contending in their respective divisions. Several more teams are still on the cusp and not ready to wave the white flag.

"Clubs that are borderline don't want to give up players, because they're still trying to win games," Jocketty said. "It's getting harder and harder to make deals midseason, because clubs are trying to sell tickets and get people to come to the ballpark, and they don't want to dismantle their clubs and erode their fan base. It makes it tough."

Guacarock
07-01-2011, 01:01 PM
Orioles' SP Jeremy Guthrie might not be on the trade market, after all, as MLB Trade Rumors aggregates a Buster Olney Insider column, saying:

The Orioles are having an internal debate about whether or not to trade Jeremy Guthrie, but they are expected to at least listen to offers.

Read other tidbits from the column:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/olney-on-deadline-plans-for-al-teams.html

corkedbat
07-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Would you like the Reds to get Adam Everett for the bench?

That's the spot I have in mind for Janish.

Roy Tucker
07-01-2011, 03:01 PM
I'd just bring up Cozart and DFA Renteria. Play whoever is hottest between him and Janish. All the rest is really fairly OK.

I'd give it till the All Star break to see what happens with Bailey's shoulder and Volquez's head.

If both are in the dumper, I'd then make a decision as to make either a big pitching move to turn it around or punt on the season.

HokieRed
07-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Not so much a recommendation of what Walt ought to do, but what I wish he'd been able to accomplish. I wish he'd been able to acquire Wandy Rodriguez last year and then to have let Bronson walk as I suspect they might have. I'd still be in pursuit of Wandy if Bob will shell out the dough. Unfortunately unloading Bronson looks less likely all the time.

OldXOhio
07-02-2011, 09:57 PM
I have zero faith Walt is going to make a meaningful splash in the trade market that will positively impact the team for this year. And I've been one of his biggest supporters, even after a lackluster offseason. As an organization, it's been years since we've made the high profile blockbuster. I just don't see WJ changing that mantra, if for no other reasons than he seems reluctant to part with prospects, there aren't many trade partners currently available and the Reds just aren't going to spend a lot of $ to do it. Three months into the season, it's apparent at least to some that this team is going nowhere. And if there aren't going to be major upgrades, then the whole exercise is a waste of time.

How about parting ways (via trade or release) with Hernandez, Cordero, Lewis, Edgar....anyone with any value who isn't part of the plans for next season. Bring up some of the youngsters to fill the gaps and get on with some semblance of a plan. This team is stuck in purgatory and just isn't good enough as is to get out. If you're not going to dive in the buyer's pool Walt then get selling and let's create something potentially meaningful for the future.

edabbs44
07-02-2011, 10:05 PM
Walt has traded a few prospects in his day. I'm not sure that he is gun shy about making the right deal.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-02-2011, 10:15 PM
I have zero faith Walt is going to make a meaningful splash in the trade market that will positively impact the team for this year. And I've been one of his biggest supporters, even after a lackluster offseason. As an organization, it's been years since we've made the high profile blockbuster. I just don't see WJ changing that mantra, if for no other reasons than he seems reluctant to part with prospects, there aren't many trade partners currently available and the Reds just aren't going to spend a lot of $ to do it. Three months into the season, it's apparent at least to some that this team is going nowhere. And if there aren't going to be major upgrades, then the whole exercise is a waste of time.

How about parting ways (via trade or release) with Hernandez, Cordero, Lewis, Edgar....anyone with any value who isn't part of the plans for next season. Bring up some of the youngsters to fill the gaps and get on with some semblance of a plan. This team is stuck in purgatory and just isn't good enough as is to get out. If you're not going to dive in the buyer's pool Walt then get selling and let's create something potentially meaningful for the future.

I'd absolutely shop him to see what we could get. This team has no need for a closer right now since it rarely wins close games. Most every win lately is the of the once-a-week offensive explosion variety where we'll hang 10 runs on somebody and win 10-4. Don't need a closer for that.

But I, too, have zero faith in Walt Jocketty at this point. He's been nothing short of a major disappointment the past year and a half.

reds44
07-02-2011, 11:03 PM
There's a 0% chance Cordero is traded. Zero. Unless the Reds are like 10 games out on July 31st, he's not going anyway.

I'd take a real long, hard look at trading Drew Stubbs if you can get something good in a package for him.

OldXOhio
07-02-2011, 11:19 PM
There's a 0% chance Cordero is traded. Zero. Unless the Reds are like 10 games out on July 31st, he's not going anyway.

I'd take a real long, hard look at trading Drew Stubbs if you can get something good in a package for him.

If mgmt isn't going to consider trading Cordero, then they obviously still think this team is a playoff contender. And if so, then why look to unload Stubbs? For all his flaws, he's a solid defender, possesses above average speed and has some pop. Oh and he's cheap and under team control.

Taking a long, hard look at trading Stubbs or any of the other players for that matter would signal a change in the team's philosophy regarding the future. And not that I'm not an advocate, I just don't see it happening. Walt et al seem rather content with the .500 product being offered.

reds44
07-02-2011, 11:22 PM
If mgmt isn't going to consider trading Cordero, then they obviously still think this team is a playoff contender. And if so, then why look to unload Stubbs? For all his flaws, he's a solid defender, possesses above average speed and has some pop. Oh and he's cheap and under team control.

Taking a long, hard look at trading Stubbs or any of the other players for that matter would signal a change in the team's philosophy regarding the future. And not that I'm not an advocate, I just don't see it happening. Walt et al seem rather content with the .500 product being offered.
Because there's a replacement for Stubbs in AAA. Deal from somewhere you have depth to fix a weakness.

Same reason why I could see them trading Ramon.

edabbs44
07-02-2011, 11:33 PM
Because there's a replacement for Stubbs in AAA. Deal from somewhere you have depth to fix a weakness.

Same reason why I could see them trading Ramon.

If they have soured on Stubbs and think there are in-house replacements that will not cause a material decrease in the MLB product (either now or in the future) while upgrading other areas of the team, then by all means it should be explored.

reds44
07-02-2011, 11:36 PM
If they have soured on Stubbs and think there are in-house replacements that will not cause a material decrease in the MLB product (either now or in the future) while upgrading other areas of the team, then by all means it should be explored.
That's what I'm saying.

Although I highly doubt that happens.

edabbs44
07-02-2011, 11:37 PM
That's what I'm saying.

Although I highly doubt that happens.

I was backing you up, I guess I could have made that a little clearer.

reds44
07-02-2011, 11:37 PM
I was backing you up, I guess I could have made that a little clearer.
Oh yeah, I knew what you meant. No worries lol

signalhome
07-02-2011, 11:39 PM
Because there's a replacement for Stubbs in AAA. Deal from somewhere you have depth to fix a weakness.

Same reason why I could see them trading Ramon.

Stubbs is on pace to be a ~4.0 WAR player yet again, so I don't understand why the Reds should be in any rush to deal him. ZiPS has him finishing with 20 HR, 41 SB, 100 R, and a .336 wOBA. That's a very valuable player for CF, especially considering his defense (though, to be fair, UZR doesn't seem to like him very much; maybe I'm wrong about him being a great defender). I'd love to be wrong, but I highly doubt Sappelt will be nearly as valuable as Stubbs, so unless someone makes the Reds an unbelievable offer, there's no way I'd be okay with the Reds sending him away.

Cordero, on the other hand, is due for a large amount of regression. His FIP/xFIP are over double his ERA (3.59/3.63 vs. 1.53). That ERA is a mirage, boosted by an unbelievably high 93.3% LOB% and a .174 BABIP. His LD% doesn't even come close to supporting that BABIP -- with a LD% at 13.8%, a mid .200s BABIP should be expected. Cordero has been successful this year, but it's hard for me to believe that he will continue to perform at anything close to his current level. ZiPS has him being a 3.66 ERA pitcher the rest of the year, and that's exactly what I believe he'll be.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2011, 12:16 AM
Houston may be a trade partner for Stubbs. He's from the area and a deal for him may play well with the disgruntled fan base down there. Stubbs plus a prospect for Hunter Pence?

CySeymour
07-03-2011, 12:22 AM
Houston may be a trade partner for Stubbs. He's from the area and a deal for him may play well with the disgruntled fan base down there. Stubbs plus a prospect for Hunter Pence?

Though Pence maybe somewhat of an upgrade offensively over Stubbs, he is certainly a step back on defense. Yes, you could slide Pence into left, but who plays center fulltime?

Always Red
07-03-2011, 01:35 AM
Might not want to blame Walt, but the ownership who might or might not pony up the $ to make it happen.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2011, 02:05 AM
Might not want to blame Walt, but the ownership who might or might not pony up the $ to make it happen.

But from everything we've ever heard about Bob Castellini, he's supposedly impatient and wants to win now. That doesn't mesh with the total inaction and borderline indifference displayed the past year by the front office.

This is a column that Paul Daugherty wrote before Opening Day this year. It talks about a hands-on perfectionist, which is why the stand-pat stance is so confusing. Some exerpts:

He (Castellini) is Cincinnati to the core, and he was tired of seeing his hometown team underachieve and its fans become disillusioned.

He remains emotional, sometimes impatient and entirely hands-on.

If he was tired of seeing some bad Reds teams underachieve and fans become disillusioned a couple of years ago, what is he possibly thinking now when a supposedly good Reds team is piddling along and treating large home crowds to complete snooze-fest losses?

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110327/COL03/303270020/At-his-core-Bob-Castellini-Reds-fan

RedLegSuperStar
07-03-2011, 03:29 AM
Money shouldn't be an issue if it results in fans coming to the park. Winning cures all and the production out of LF & SS are bleak. Is pitching really the issue? Homer pitched great today, Cueto has been electric, and Leake has been the 2010 Leake since his recall. Arroyo is what he is but at years end he is a 200 innings guy. If Volquez can pitch like he did his last start and keep his pitch count down then we have a good rotation. Willis and Wood should be options if any faulters.

You don't trade Stubbs period. He is a guy who can hit 20+ HRs and steal 40+ bags. Sappelt deserves to be up here but so does Alonso, Mesoraco, Cozart, Francisco, Hermida, and Frazier.

My deal even though he got hurt today is Hamilton, Boxberger, and Grandel for Reyes w/ 72 hour window for contract extension.

Phhhl
07-03-2011, 04:04 AM
Money shouldn't be an issue if it results in fans coming to the park. Winning cures all and the production out of LF & SS are bleak. Is pitching really the issue? Homer pitched great today, Cueto has been electric, and Leake has been the 2010 Leake since his recall. Arroyo is what he is but at years end he is a 200 innings guy. If Volquez can pitch like he did his last start and keep his pitch count down then we have a good rotation. Willis and Wood should be options if any faulters.

You don't trade Stubbs period. He is a guy who can hit 20+ HRs and steal 40+ bags. Sappelt deserves to be up here but so does Alonso, Mesoraco, Cozart, Francisco, Hermida, and Frazier.

My deal even though he got hurt today is Hamilton, Boxberger, and Grandel for Reyes w/ 72 hour window for contract extension.

I don't hate it, but we have to realize that such a deal would basically seal that Votto and Phillips would both be gone by spring training of 2014. There would be absolutely no way to fit even two of Reyes, Phillips and Votto into the same budget, much less three. Trading for Reyes and signing him to a long term deal would be a capitulation that he is a better player moving forward than any other player on the Reds' current roster. That is the statement such a deal would be making. At a position as integral as shortstop, I am not saying it would be wrong. But, THAT would be quite a commitment.

I would be much more in favor of trading for Reyes and coupling him with Joey and Phillips for the remainder of this season, with the knowledge that he would be gone after 2011. I have no respect for any of the pretenders in this division right now, so it would be a gamble that I would be more than willing to take with an excellent haul from our ripe system.

GAC
07-03-2011, 09:27 AM
Because there's a replacement for Stubbs in AAA. Deal from somewhere you have depth to fix a weakness.

I'm assuming you're referring to Sappelt?

I personally don't see this FO making any significant trade before the deadline; but will shake things up, trying to address those weaknesses internally.

My observations?....

As poorly as we're playing, we're still only 3 games out coming to the halfway point. So far, no one is playing like they want to win this division. But a shakeup is needed to spur this offense because I think our pitching is improving - or maybe "stabilizing" is a better word - and will continue to do so.

We're not getting consistent production (weaknesses) from SS, LF, and 3B. And Stubbs is not a lead off guy.

SS..... release Renteria and call up Cozart

My next moves would be to not only address the weakness in LF, but also the lead off position and OB%.....

Send Heisey down and bring up Sappelt. Sappelt has some experience in LF. Leave Stubbs where he is the most comfortable (CF), but move him down in the batting order where he belongs. His speed does very little leading off with a .335 OB%. Need better there.

Lewis and Sappelt would be my lead off.

Lewis, in 92 ABs vs RHers, has put up a .298 BA and impressive .377 OB%.

Sappelt, vs LHers, has been impressive with a .381 BA and .473 OB%

Sorry Jonny, but you're the odd man out. The only way you'd be in LF is vs a southpaw, and if I felt Sappelt needed a break.

3B, as well as the #4 spot in the batting order, is a problem with Scott Rolen. He can still pick it at 3B, for the most part, but is showing his age. He's missed almost 30 games so far for various ailments. His power is in decline. He has 4 HRs so far, and wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't reach 10 by season's end. And the guy is putting up a .289 OB%. But in the #4 spot overall, this team is getting a .699 OPS, with a .377 SLG% and a .322 OB%. That's terrible folks, and something has to be down.

The question is what? Do you continue to rely on 37 yr old Cairo as Rolen's backup? Or do we find room to bring Francisco back up now that he has been activated? It's a perplexing problem (at least for me), because I think Francisco plays better when he gets far more playing time then what he'd get if he was called up.

But Rolen has to be moved from the clean up spot IMO.

lollipopcurve
07-03-2011, 09:45 AM
Houston may be a trade partner for Stubbs. He's from the area and a deal for him may play well with the disgruntled fan base down there. Stubbs plus a prospect for Hunter Pence?

Same thought has occurred to me. Pence is a great target, if available. Of course, the Reds will have to go big in getting him signed long-term.

traderumor
07-03-2011, 09:52 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but dramatic improvement in this team will only happen if the rotation is improved. I know, they've scored three runs in two games, but the Indians have been pitching it well all year. Folks make fun because they haven't heard of the pitchers. I keep on hearing "they score runs in bunches." Yea, as do many major league teams.

Folks have been noting that we are running out three starters with ERAs over 5. I think that is only two now in Volquez and Arroyo, Wood was the third one. Upgrade the rotation and I think when the offense isn't scoring 6-7 runs per game for two weeks (which is when folks seem to stop complaining about the offense, temporarily anyhow), it will be less glaring.

This team floundering begins and ends with the rotation.

Tony Cloninger
07-03-2011, 10:02 AM
Though Pence maybe somewhat of an upgrade offensively over Stubbs, he is certainly a step back on defense. Yes, you could slide Pence into left, but who plays center fulltime?

Lewis, Hesiey, Sappelt. It's not like Pence is a statue in the OF. How about some offense here.

Tony Cloninger
07-03-2011, 10:07 AM
Money shouldn't be an issue if it results in fans coming to the park. Winning cures all and the production out of LF & SS are bleak. Is pitching really the issue? Homer pitched great today, Cueto has been electric, and Leake has been the 2010 Leake since his recall. Arroyo is what he is but at years end he is a 200 innings guy. If Volquez can pitch like he did his last start and keep his pitch count down then we have a good rotation. Willis and Wood should be options if any faulters.

You don't trade Stubbs period. He is a guy who can hit 20+ HRs and steal 40+ bags. Sappelt deserves to be up here but so does Alonso, Mesoraco, Cozart, Francisco, Hermida, and Frazier.

My deal even though he got hurt today is Hamilton, Boxberger, and Grandel for Reyes w/ 72 hour window for contract extension.


Can someone pull up Juan Samuel's #'s and see if the mirror that off Stubbs.....who could not steal as well as Juan did ...and the power was almost the same, since Juan hit a lot of triples. They both SO a ton ...but I think Juan walked less.

I think they would need to add Heisey and Frazier or Wood to that Reyes deal for it to happen.

pahster
07-03-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm assuming you're referring to Sappelt?

I personally don't see this FO making any significant trade before the deadline; but will shake things up, trying to address those weaknesses internally.

My observations?....

As poorly as we're playing, we're still only 3 games out coming to the halfway point. So far, no one is playing like they want to win this division. But a shakeup is needed to spur this offense because I think our pitching is improving - or maybe "stabilizing" is a better word - and will continue to do so.

We're not getting consistent production (weaknesses) from SS, LF, and 3B. And Stubbs is not a lead off guy.

SS..... release Renteria and call up Cozart

My next moves would be to not only address the weakness in LF, but also the lead off position and OB%.....

Send Heisey down and bring up Sappelt. Sappelt has some experience in LF. Leave Stubbs where he is the most comfortable (CF), but move him down in the batting order where he belongs. His speed does very little leading off with a .335 OB%. Need better there.

Lewis and Sappelt would be my lead off.

Lewis, in 92 ABs vs RHers, has put up a .298 BA and impressive .377 OB%.

Sappelt, vs LHers, has been impressive with a .381 BA and .473 OB%

Sorry Jonny, but you're the odd man out. The only way you'd be in LF is vs a southpaw, and if I felt Sappelt needed a break.

3B, as well as the #4 spot in the batting order, is a problem with Scott Rolen. He can still pick it at 3B, for the most part, but is showing his age. He's missed almost 30 games so far for various ailments. His power is in decline. He has 4 HRs so far, and wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't reach 10 by season's end. And the guy is putting up a .289 OB%. But in the #4 spot overall, this team is getting a .699 OPS, with a .377 SLG% and a .322 OB%. That's terrible folks, and something has to be down.

The question is what? Do you continue to rely on 37 yr old Cairo as Rolen's backup? Or do we find room to bring Francisco back up now that he has been activated? It's a perplexing problem (at least for me), because I think Francisco plays better when he gets far more playing time then what he'd get if he was called up.

But Rolen has to be moved from the clean up spot IMO.

What's Heisey done to deserve getting shipped off to AAA?

Ghosts of 1990
07-03-2011, 10:58 AM
I guess I like Fred Lewis, but shouldn't a team who is going to win the division and make the playoffs aspire to have more in the way of their first LH bat off the bench than Fred Lewis?

Could be solved with a call up of Alonso too.

Krusty
07-03-2011, 11:01 AM
Sending out a S.O.S. for Mets Jose Reyes.

RedLegSuperStar
07-03-2011, 09:35 PM
I don't hate it, but we have to realize that such a deal would basically seal that Votto and Phillips would both be gone by spring training of 2014. There would be absolutely no way to fit even two of Reyes, Phillips and Votto into the same budget, much less three. Trading for Reyes and signing him to a long term deal would be a capitulation that he is a better player moving forward than any other player on the Reds' current roster. That is the statement such a deal would be making. At a position as integral as shortstop, I am not saying it would be wrong. But, THAT would be quite a commitment.

I would be much more in favor of trading for Reyes and coupling him with Joey and Phillips for the remainder of this season, with the knowledge that he would be gone after 2011. I have no respect for any of the pretenders in this division right now, so it would be a gamble that I would be more than willing to take with an excellent haul from our ripe system.

But we could afford the likes of Griffey, Dunn, Kearns, & Larkin? We have Votto, Phillips, Arroyo, & Francisco who we are paying now. I don't see the point. You want a name to drive ticket sales yet never have money to get a name. You develop all this talent and have no where to put them.. Something.. Somewhere is going to have to give. Either you trade Votto, Phillips, Rolen, and Hernandez and refill with the ready prospect or you trade a valuable blue chip and net an all star. You could also I guess just sit still and not improve a team who got dominated in the playoffs along with a perfect game thrown in. Just saying..

Always Red
07-03-2011, 09:49 PM
But from everything we've ever heard about Bob Castellini, he's supposedly impatient and wants to win now. That doesn't mesh with the total inaction and borderline indifference displayed the past year by the front office.

This is a column that Paul Daugherty wrote before Opening Day this year. It talks about a hands-on perfectionist, which is why the stand-pat stance is so confusing. Some exerpts:

He (Castellini) is Cincinnati to the core, and he was tired of seeing his hometown team underachieve and its fans become disillusioned.

He remains emotional, sometimes impatient and entirely hands-on.

If he was tired of seeing some bad Reds teams underachieve and fans become disillusioned a couple of years ago, what is he possibly thinking now when a supposedly good Reds team is piddling along and treating large home crowds to complete snooze-fest losses?

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110327/COL03/303270020/At-his-core-Bob-Castellini-Reds-fan

Point taken- and Walt Jocketty has always been a GM (especially when with the Cards) who didn't hesitate to pull the trigger and bring in some bonafide talent, and pay the money to do so.

What has changed about Walt? Well, he's working for a different guy now. Maybe Walt has been given a strict budget to work with? Maybe not, I have no idea, but it could explain Walt's inaction.

Brutus
07-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Point taken- and Walt Jocketty has always been a GM (especially when with the Cards) who didn't hesitate to pull the trigger and bring in some bonafide talent, and pay the money to do so.

What has changed about Walt? Well, he's working for a different guy now. Maybe Walt has been given a strict budget to work with? Maybe not, I have no idea, but it could explain Walt's inaction.

These are good questions. It might be that he just believes in patience before making moves. I believe we probably all know the moves that can be made, but perhaps he's simply not wanting to be too reactionary or he is really hesitant to tap into the system unless he can hit a home run. Who knows. I believe, though, he's proven himself in the past. It's just a matter of figuring out what's holding him back right at this time.

edabbs44
07-03-2011, 11:17 PM
These are good questions. It might be that he just believes in patience before making moves. I believe we probably all know the moves that can be made, but perhaps he's simply not wanting to be too reactionary or he is really hesitant to tap into the system unless he can hit a home run. Who knows. I believe, though, he's proven himself in the past. It's just a matter of figuring out what's holding him back right at this time.

I think the main thing holding him back in the trade market is the calendar.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-03-2011, 11:45 PM
I think the main thing holding him back in the trade market is the calendar.

That would explain right now. But it doesn't explain the offseason, last July, etc.

I(heart)Freel
07-03-2011, 11:53 PM
That would explain right now. But it doesn't explain the offseason, last July, etc.

I dislike that last trade deadline is used as an example of inaction. We know for certain that in retrospect the Reds were in on Cliff Lee talks, even that they were in it to the very end. No getting a target doesn't mean not trying.

Now the offseason is a different matter. I'm guessing though that Walt just wants not to overpay. Offseason or now.

edabbs44
07-04-2011, 12:22 AM
That would explain right now. But it doesn't explain the offseason, last July, etc.

Last July likely wouldn't have mattered. I'm not sure that they were beating SF or Philly anyway.

Looking at right now, Cincy has everyone at their disposal and is only 2 games back. Milwaukee went all in and only has a 2 game lead on Cincy. Do thy have anything else to offer up for an upgrade? I'm not sweating Pitt and the Cards always worry me but not as much this year.

I've said it before, but I think Cincy is in the catbird's seat going into this deadline. Hopefully there will be trades to make that will boost their playoff chances.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-04-2011, 12:42 AM
Last July likely wouldn't have mattered. I'm not sure that they were beating SF or Philly anyway.

Looking at right now, Cincy has everyone at their disposal and is only 2 games back. Milwaukee went all in and only has a 2 game lead on Cincy. Do thy have anything else to offer up for an upgrade? I'm not sweating Pitt and the Cards always worry me but not as much this year.

I've said it before, but I think Cincy is in the catbird's seat going into this deadline. Hopefully there will be trades to make that will boost their playoff chances.

If the Reds had Lee last year, I wonder which game of the NLDS they would have started him - Game 1 or Game 2? I almost would have punted Game 1 with Halladay on the mound at Philly, and started Lee in Game 2. With the runs the Reds did score that game, Lee probably would have won. Then you come home tied 1-1 and anything can happen.

Of course, this is taking hypothetical to the extreme. :D

cinreds21
07-04-2011, 12:50 AM
I know everyone wants Hernandez for Surkamp but I really don't see it happening. Hernandez is having a great year, yes, and he very well could be a Type-A free agent, but I just don't think he's valuable enough for a guy who has a 1.72 ERA and a 92/25 K/BB ratio. If the Giants become desperate enough, it could happen; I just don't see it.

Brutus
07-04-2011, 02:50 AM
Just using very rudimentary math, I'm not sure Hunter Pence is worth the price of admission. I've never been a big fan, but I'm not really even taking that into consideration.

If Chris Heisey were given Drew Stubbs' same number of plate appearances over the second half of the season, there'd be a drop in roughly 0.7 wins above replacement based on their current rates. So Pence, in theory, would have to be an upgrade of at least 0.7 WAR just to make it an upgrade of any sort (as trading Stubbs would mean Heisey becoming the de Facto centerfielder).

Looking at the combination of Gomes, Lewis and Heisey, they've accumulated somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.9 WAR over 500 plate appearances. Reducing that by about 40% (to adjust it to 300 positional plate appearances in left for one half season), we're looking at about 1.7 WAR. Hunter Pence, meanwhile, has accumulated roughly 2.5 WAR.

So going from Stubbs to Heisey would result in a loss of 0.7 WAR, while upgrading the platoon of left fielders to Pence would net about 0.8 WAR.

In other words, the Reds would be trading Stubbs for Pence without getting much of an upgrade. In the process, they'd be adding over $6 million and gaining an arbitration-eligible player.

Even without regard for whether Stubbs is a better long-term option than Pence, I don't think the Reds would be gaining much in doing that deal.

Ron Madden
07-04-2011, 03:15 AM
I would not trade Drew Stubbs for Hunter Pence.

I like Pence but I think Stubbs can improve and be a bit more consistent than he has been. I don't know but I just wouldn't do it right now.

.

Big Klu
07-04-2011, 03:17 AM
If the Reds had Lee last year, I wonder which game of the NLDS they would have started him - Game 1 or Game 2? I almost would have punted Game 1 with Halladay on the mound at Philly, and started Lee in Game 2. With the runs the Reds did score that game, Lee probably would have won. Then you come home tied 1-1 and anything can happen.

Of course, this is taking hypothetical to the extreme. :D

What would have prevented Uncle Charlie from sitting back and checking when the Reds were going to pitch Lee, and then pitch Halladay that same day?

Guacarock
07-04-2011, 03:54 AM
I know everyone wants Hernandez for Surkamp but I really don't see it happening. Hernandez is having a great year, yes, and he very well could be a Type-A free agent, but I just don't think he's valuable enough for a guy who has a 1.72 ERA and a 92/25 K/BB ratio. If the Giants become desperate enough, it could happen; I just don't see it.

If I'm the Giants, I'm considering it, but I'm not completely sold on surrendering a future dominant SP for a half-year rental, even if that rental fills three glaring needs for my club (catcher, offense and little immediate monetary outlay). If I'm the Reds, I'm not going to play my hand just yet, but if it would make any difference in us acquiring Surkamp, I'd sweeten the pot. The Giants need offense and can't really afford to pay for it.

What if the deal was Surkamp for Hernandez and Heisey, or Surkamp for Hernandez and Lewis? Heisey and Lewis are both making under $1 million, so they ought to be attractive to a cash-conscious team in need of manufacturing runs. Both are battle-tested, so they've already undergone the gauntlet that leads many prospects to flame out. Lewis also has a track record with the Giants.

As much as I like Heisey and Lewis (and I do), I like the idea of bringing Surkamp into the fold even more. Besides his home-grown appeal, he would give us a second solid lefty prospect to challenge Wood over which southpaw could best fill out our rotation.

We've clawed half-way through 2011 and now have a better understanding of just what value Heisey and Lewis bring to the table. Neither's a slouch, in my book, but I'm not so sure that either is a permanent, full-time answer in LF. They are more likely 'tweeners and bench guys -- good ones -- but not necessarily starting position players. And both have comparable players back in Louisville clamoring to fill their respective spots if they are dealt -- Sappelt or Frazier in the case of Heisey, Alonso or Hermida for Lewis.

The complication that's holding back a trade? We're not ready to punt on this season, or to give the impression that we're capitulating and giving up here-now players for here-tomorrow stars. Myself, I'm ready to switch gears. I could be wrong, but I just don't see much downside if Mesoraco gets called up, along with Sappelt, Frazier, Alonso or Hermida. I don't think we'll miss too much of a beat in '11. And long-term, we could well be remembering the date this deal went down.

GAC
07-04-2011, 06:17 AM
What's Heisey done to deserve getting shipped off to AAA?

I like Heisey. I wish he (and Lewis) got more playing time then Gomes in LF. In order to make the moves I suggested in my previous post you have to free up a roster spot. I'm certainly open to other suggestions pahster. ;)

Maybe a pitcher?

GAC
07-04-2011, 06:23 AM
I've said it before, but I think Cincy is in the catbird's seat going into this deadline. Hopefully there will be trades to make that will boost their playoff chances.

I agree. And Walt has been that type of GM in the past when it's came to dealing prospects. He held off last year, but this is a new season, and Bob C may pull that trigger in order to keep building on last season's momentum, and not allow this season to slip away from us when this division is so winnable by almost anyone (who isn't Chicago or Houston).

But team GMs anymore wait until the very last minute of the TD to get the best deal any more.

pahster
07-04-2011, 10:06 AM
I like Heisey. I wish he (and Lewis) got more playing time then Gomes in LF. In order to make the moves I suggested in my previous post you have to free up a roster spot. I'm certainly open to other suggestions pahster. ;)

Maybe a pitcher?

It really seems like Gomes is being used as he should now, i.e. only against left handed pitchers. That's a good thing because Gomes' atrocious defense is acceptable in LF when he's only facing lefties, whom he regularly crushes. Left field's not really a problem anymore now that Dusty has begun to use Gomes, Lewis, and Heisey properly. I'm not sure there's much of a reason to change the LF rotation for now unless Jocketty acquires someone like Beltran.

mth123
07-04-2011, 11:21 AM
It really seems like Gomes is being used as he should now, i.e. only against left handed pitchers. That's a good thing because Gomes' atrocious defense is acceptable in LF when he's only facing lefties, whom he regularly crushes. Left field's not really a problem anymore now that Dusty has begun to use Gomes, Lewis, and Heisey properly. I'm not sure there's much of a reason to change the LF rotation for now unless Jocketty acquires someone like Beltran.

They still need somebody to hit in the middle of the order against RHP. Maybe its Heisey, not sure. How about this?

VS RHP

Lewis LF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Heisey CF
Rolen 3B
Catchers
Shortstops
Pitchers

VS LHP

Stubbs CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Gomes LF
Bruce RF
Rolen 3B
Catchers
Shortstops
Pitchers

Its not ideal and I'd prefer players at other positions that allow Stubbs to hit lower in the order and play every day, but if they are going with what they have, I think its the best they can do.

HokieRed
07-04-2011, 12:00 PM
They still need somebody to hit in the middle of the order against RHP. Maybe its Heisey, not sure. How about this?

VS RHP

Lewis LF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Heisey CF
Rolen 3B
Catchers
Shortstops
Pitchers

VS LHP

Stubbs CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Gomes LF
Bruce RF
Rolen 3B
Catchers
Shortstops
Pitchers

Its not ideal and I'd prefer players at other positions that allow Stubbs to hit lower in the order and play every day, but if they are going with what they have, I think its the best they can do.

I think you've got the best configurations here. During interleague play, I'd have loved to go at a couple righthanders with 4 lefties in a row in the middle of the lineup: Votto, Alonso (DH), Bruce, Francisco (3b), but alas, it's now too late for that.

757690
07-04-2011, 11:47 PM
Looks like Willis is headed to St.Louis.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/next-move-for-dontrelle-willis.html

PuffyPig
07-04-2011, 11:57 PM
Looks like Willis is headed to St.Louis.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/next-move-for-dontrelle-willis.html

I thought you meant pitching for the Cards.

I'd love to see Willis against the Cards instead of Arroyo on Thursday.

Ron Madden
07-05-2011, 12:22 AM
I thought you meant pitching for the Cards.

I'd love to see Willis against the Cards instead of Arroyo on Thursday.

I'd kinda like to see Willis pitch Thursday as well.

Kc61
07-05-2011, 12:34 AM
Willis should get a major league shot this year or be traded for value. He's done too well to languish at AAA much longer. He could be a good find if given the chance.

757690
07-05-2011, 01:07 AM
I thought you meant pitching for the Cards.

I'd love to see Willis against the Cards instead of Arroyo on Thursday.

Arroyo is pitching Wed.

They might move Volquez back a day and start Willis tomorrow.

kaldaniels
07-05-2011, 01:09 AM
Before we spin things out of control...am I missing something or does it never say that Willis is on the way to STL?

jojo
07-05-2011, 01:11 AM
Willis should get a major league shot this year or be traded for value. He's done too well to languish at AAA much longer. He could be a good find if given the chance.

I like him as a LOOGY.

757690
07-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Before we spin things out of control...am I missing something or does it never say that Willis is on the way to STL?

Redszone poster Hal King posted this in the minor league forum.


The Bats radio announcer just said that the rumblings around the ballpark are that Willis was scratched in order to catch a flight... my question there is who would he be replacing on the Reds roster??

Nothing definitive, but it all points to him joining the Reds tomorrow.

Guacarock
07-05-2011, 01:19 AM
Seems like Willis was scratched from his Louisville start after Arroyo experienced dizziness during his bullpen session. But Arroyo is now saying he's OK to go and can pitch on Wednesday, so this could be a false alarm.

Then again, if it was up to me, I'd shut down Arroyo on Wednesday and give him an extended rest through the All Star break, handing the starting assignment to Willis anyway. Gamer or not, Arroyo isn't doing the team any favors serving up batting practice, like he did against Cleveland. We need him healthy and rested to open the second half of the season. Shouldn't be his call to make.

reds44
07-05-2011, 01:19 AM
He's not coming up. Arroyo was dizzy today. Arroyo threw in the pen today and is go for his start.

EDIT: Yeah, what he^ said.

cinreds21
07-05-2011, 03:35 AM
No one was moved up from Double-A after the game, meaning no one was needed for a spot in Triple-A, meaning no one was called up from Triple-A. Sorry if that's confusing, but basically, nothing has happened.

Brutus
07-05-2011, 03:38 AM
No one was moved up from Double-A after the game, meaning no one was needed for a spot in Triple-A, meaning no one was called up from Triple-A. Sorry if that's confusing, but basically, nothing has happened.

It doesn't seem anything happened, but it wouldn't preclude something happening if no one was moved from AA because someone from the majors simply could have been optioned. :)

Of course, if someone were optioned, it might not be done until tomorrow anyhow.

cinreds21
07-05-2011, 03:43 AM
It doesn't seem anything happened, but it wouldn't preclude something happening if no one was moved from AA because someone from the majors simply could have been optioned. :)

Of course, if someone were optioned, it might not be done until tomorrow anyhow.

Touché, Brutus.

RedLegSuperStar
07-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Reineke is starting tonight for the Bats so my guess a move will be made today. I can see Ondrusek or Fisher being optioned.

Tony Cloninger
07-05-2011, 10:04 AM
Seems like Willis was scratched from his Louisville start after Arroyo experienced dizziness during his bullpen session. But Arroyo is now saying he's OK to go and can pitch on Wednesday, so this could be a false alarm.

Then again, if it was up to me, I'd shut down Arroyo on Wednesday and give him an extended rest through the All Star break, handing the starting assignment to Willis anyway. Gamer or not, Arroyo isn't doing the team any favors serving up batting practice, like he did against Cleveland. We need him healthy and rested to open the second half of the season. Shouldn't be his call to make.


Nope....that start streak by Arroyo is more important right now. It's just a flesh wound.

HotCorner
07-05-2011, 10:21 AM
Reineke is starting tonight for the Bats so my guess a move will be made today. I can see Ondrusek or Fisher being optioned.

Ondrusek? He of the 1.79 ERA and 1.04 WHIP.

cinreds21
07-05-2011, 10:37 AM
Reineke is starting tonight for the Bats so my guess a move will be made today. I can see Ondrusek or Fisher being optioned.

What team are you watching? Ondrusek has an ERA below 2, and Fisher is in Louisville.

Ghosts of 1990
07-05-2011, 10:57 AM
Ondrusek is what is known as a mainstay. He's going to be here for a while and a key cog in the pen. He's a really good, dependable big league bullpen arm.

traderumor
07-05-2011, 10:59 AM
Ondrusek is what is known as a mainstay. He's going to be here for a while and a key cog in the pen. He's a really good, dependable big league bullpen arm.Yup, he is a good bridge guy that can also carry the 8th inning when your setup(s) aren't available.

edabbs44
07-05-2011, 11:10 AM
It really seems like Gomes is being used as he should now, i.e. only against left handed pitchers. That's a good thing because Gomes' atrocious defense is acceptable in LF when he's only facing lefties, whom he regularly crushes. Left field's not really a problem anymore now that Dusty has begun to use Gomes, Lewis, and Heisey properly. I'm not sure there's much of a reason to change the LF rotation for now unless Jocketty acquires someone like Beltran.

Fwiw, Gomes has raised his OPS nearly 100 pts since June 6. He has started 14 games. 50% split in R/L starters. There might be a little more to the recent success of the LF platoon than just the arm from which the pitcher throws.

traderumor
07-05-2011, 11:13 AM
Fwiw, Gomes has raised his OPS nearly 100 pts since June 6. He has started 14 games. 50% split in R/L starters. There might be a little more to the recent success of the LF platoon than just the arm from which the pitcher throws.Which probably doesn't begin to offset his D issue.

klw
07-05-2011, 01:52 PM
Fay blogs- Just do Something!

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/07/05/the-reds-have-to-something-right/


I’m surprised, bordering on stunned, the Reds haven’t called up one of the hots bats from Louisville ...

I’ve never been big on shakeups for the sake of the shakeup. But when you’re 43-43 after 86 games and looking up that Pirates, you have got to do something, right?

traderumor
07-05-2011, 01:56 PM
But when you’re 43-43 after 86 games and looking up that Pirates, you have got to do something, right?This is why I just loooooooove Fay. That would be fair if the Pirates were in 3rd with a losing record. He's so shallow in his comments. I think Bill Cunningham shows more depth on the Reds than Fay does.

pahster
07-05-2011, 04:21 PM
Fwiw, Gomes has raised his OPS nearly 100 pts since June 6. He has started 14 games. 50% split in R/L starters. There might be a little more to the recent success of the LF platoon than just the arm from which the pitcher throws.

True, though I suspect not playing everyday (and thus getting a 50/50 split rather than a 75/25 RH/LH split) is helpful. It would't surprise me if Gomes was being spotted against righties who he's either hit well in the past or of whom are a type of pitcher he can handle.

Doubling his PA against lefties certainly helps those aggregate OPS numbers, though. Nothing wrong with that; Gomes should play every day against lefties. He crushes them.

_Sir_Charles_
07-05-2011, 04:25 PM
This is why I just loooooooove Fay. That would be fair if the Pirates were in 3rd with a losing record. He's so shallow in his comments. I think Bill Cunningham shows more depth on the Reds than Fay does.

I think it's just that people can't get their heads around the concept that these are not the same old Pirates we're used to seeing. They're a respectable team. Period. And a decent team that gets good, solid starting pitching is going to have a decent record. I just don't understand why people are so surprised by them. They're young, good, talented and on the rise.

traderumor
07-05-2011, 04:28 PM
I think it's just that people can't get their heads around the concept that these are not the same old Pirates we're used to seeing. They're a respectable team. Period. And a decent team that gets good, solid starting pitching is going to have a decent record. I just don't understand why people are so surprised by them. They're young, good, talented and on the rise.The surprising part is that the pitching is good. A lot of exceeded expectations, like Correia having a career year, Morton going from dud to stud, not like those were predictables. I'll stick by my prediction that they'll have a losing streak, or a lose 15 of 20 streak and that will be that.

But, Fay was being lazy with that comment.

Will M
07-05-2011, 10:38 PM
IMO the Reds are a lot closer to turning the page to 2012 than to post season play. If this becomes more of a reality I'd like to see the following moves as the trade deadline approaches.

1) trade Ramon & call up Mes
2) decide what to do with Yonder. Its tough because he likely can't play LF and Votto isn't likely to be traded (although I've suggested a Hershell Walker type deal if it was available).
3) decide what to do with Brandon Phillips in 2012. if the team isn't going to pick up his option then deal him now
4) DFA Renteria & call up Cozart
5) find a way to get Frazier up here & get him some ABs. the likely spot to move is Gomes even though he has been playing well. Gomes isn't in the plan for 2012 so he needs to go sooner than later so we can see some of the AAA guys get some ABs against big league pitching
6) play Heisey a lot. Lewis should just be a bench bat. we aren't going to be in contention so winning every game is less important than getting some young players some ABs.
7) get Sappelt up here at some point
8) trade Cordero
9) if anyonw wants Volquez they can have him. right now he is a placeholder until Wood gets turned around in AAA. once Wood is ready then let go of Volquez.
10) Rolen, Cairo, Lewis, Arroyo have little trade value

Basically trade Ramon, Cordero & possibly Phillips for value and get some of the AAA guys up here and see what they can do. Then we'll have a better idea of what to expect in 2012.

OnBaseMachine
07-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Walt Jocketty followed up his Executive of the Year award with the Worst Executive of the Year award.

Playadlc
07-05-2011, 11:45 PM
Here me out here...everyone keeps talking about moving Yonder because he doesn't have a position here. Well, what if we moved him back to 1B and gulp...traded Joey Votto?

Are we really going to be able to sign Joey to a LTC in two years? I hope so, but it's going to be tough to keep him out of Canada.

Now, the only way I trade a Joey Votto type player is for a no-brainer TOR starter. I am not talking about guys like Ian Kennedy, Gio Gonzalez or Jurrjens. I am talking about guys like Jared Weaver, Clayton Kershaw or Felix Hernandez.

If we could move Votto for a bona fide #1 SP...shouldn't we at least think about it?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-05-2011, 11:50 PM
Here me out here...everyone keeps talking about moving Yonder because he doesn't have a position here. Well, what if we moved him back to 1B and gulp...traded Joey Votto?

Are we really going to be able to sign Joey to a LTC in two years? I hope so, but it's going to be tough to keep him out of Canada.

Now, the only way I trade a Joey Votto type player is for a no-brainer TOR starter. I am not talking about guys like Ian Kennedy, Gio Gonzalez or Jurrjens. I am talking about guys like Jared Weaver, Clayton Kershaw or Felix Hernandez.

If we could move Votto for a bona fide #1 SP...shouldn't we at least think about it?

If we're absolutely certain that he won't resign here, then yes, I'd support that. And hopefully JV is honest and forthright about his intentions regarding that. If he is adamant about testing the free agent waters (where we wouldn't be able to compete for his services anyway) or going back to Toronto, or playing for a big market, then we might as well get while we can when we can land an absolute gold mine for him. In two years, that might not be possible.

WVRedsFan
07-05-2011, 11:54 PM
If we're absolutely certain that he won't resign here, then yes, I'd support that. And hopefully JV is honest and forthright about his intentions regarding that. If he is adamant about testing the free agent waters (where we wouldn't be able to compete for his services anyway) or going back to Toronto, or playing for a big market, then we might as well get what we can when we can land an absolute gold mine for him. In two years, that might not be possible.My thoughts allign with yours and Playadic's. But, even though he's not having a great year, he is more than 50% of our offense in my opinion. Given that fact, what good is a TOR starter if you can't score enough runs consistently to assure winning? I still hold out hope he'll want to stay in Cincinnati, but I know that's not going to happen, so why not. While they're at it they need to take a look at the entire makeup of this club and make lots of decisions.

CrackerJack
07-06-2011, 03:30 AM
My thoughts allign with yours and Playadic's. But, even though he's not having a great year, he is more than 50% of our offense in my opinion. Given that fact, what good is a TOR starter if you can't score enough runs consistently to assure winning? I still hold out hope he'll want to stay in Cincinnati, but I know that's not going to happen, so why not. While they're at it they need to take a look at the entire makeup of this club and make lots of decisions.

I think part of Votto's reasoning for not signing a longer term deal, is that he doesn't want to be stuck on a losing or mediocre team for 10 years that can't afford to bring in any help...he'll know in 2 years from now how the "plan" is working out (versus going overboard because of one division winner).

Of course I'm purely making a guess, but, he just seemed pretty commitment phobic in a situation where the pressure on him may be so tremendous that he doesn't handle it well down the road/long term, with a small market team that has historically struggled for the past decade despite a new stadium.

Ron Madden
07-06-2011, 06:13 AM
What moves would I like to see from Walt?

Right now I'd be happy with a pulse, a heartbeat, the twitch of an eye lid, any sign of life.

GAC
07-06-2011, 08:07 AM
This division is so winnable. I have to believe that Walt won't continue to let this team slug along like it has when we're just reaching the halfway mark. I still believe there will be some shuffling between the ML roster and AAA after the AS break.

We have some solid prospects performing well in AAA. The second half of this season is the opportune time to evaluate them at the next level, while also helping us this year.

edabbs44
07-06-2011, 08:14 AM
This division is so winnable. I have to believe that Walt won't continue to let this team slug along like it has when we're just reaching the halfway mark. I still believe there will be some shuffling between the ML roster and AAA after the AS break.

We have some solid prospects performing well in AAA. The second half of this season is the opportune time to evaluate them at the next level, while also helping us this year.

Agree. If there is a move to make, it will be made. The Reds have the prospects to take down some talent.

redsmetz
07-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Agree. If there is a move to make, it will be made. The Reds have the prospects to take down some talent.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head. While one move or another may be just bringing up someone from AAA, the difficult one may be landing a player (or players) from outside the organization. The old axiom that it takes "two to tango" is paramount here. And while we have a plethora of talent that could be moved, it's a matter of finding trade partners and not giving away the store. I think that's partly why management has downplayed the need to address these holes in the club. It potentially puts us at a disadvantage to publicly tout that need. Of course, the rest of MLB knows it just as well as we do, but it's still that proverbial kabuki dance to get it done.

OldXOhio
07-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Agree. If there is a move to make, it will be made. The Reds have the prospects to take down some talent.

What makes you so sure? Walt certainly has a history of doing this very thing, but that was in a former life. Not only has he shown a desire here to keep his prospects close to the vest, but understandably he also has less financial resources at his disposal. I understand he made a run last year at Lee, but it didn't get done. Perhaps it was the $, maybe he needed to offer more to SEA....I don't know. I guess I've just grown accustomed to the notion that this organization doesn't pull the trigger on the slobber knocker type deals that many of us on here wish they would. I'll be the first to applaud it if it does happen, but I'll also be very surprised.

Boss-Hog
07-06-2011, 10:34 AM
Walt Jocketty followed up his Executive of the Year award with the Worst Executive of the Year award.

I'm as frustrated as you are about the lack of vision shown this past offseason, whether the blame lies with the owner, the GM or both, the bottom line is the necessary moves to improve were not made. That being said, the only way I can think of that this past offseason could have been worse is signing an underachieving player to a LTC that in time becomes an albatross. Volquez is the most obvious example and IMO, we should thank our lucky stars he turned the extension down. However, you were probably the most ardent supporter of a Volquez LTC, were you not?

edabbs44
07-06-2011, 10:42 AM
I'm as frustrated as you are about the lack of vision shown this past offseason, whether the blame lies with the owner, the GM or both, the bottom line is the necessary moves to improve were not made. That being said, the only way I can think of that this past offseason could have been worse is signing an underachieving player to a LTC that in time becomes an albatross. Volquez is the most obvious example and IMO, we should thank our lucky stars he turned the extension down. However, you were probably the most ardent supporter of a Volquez LTC, were you not?

How about dealing some of our prospects for Willingham or Dejesus and getting what Oakland is getting right now? Which were other very popular suggestions last winter. And which would have likely flushed any roster flexibility they currently have down the toilet.

OnBaseMachine
07-06-2011, 10:46 AM
I'm as frustrated as you are about the lack of vision shown this past offseason, whether the blame lies with the owner, the GM or both, the bottom line is the necessary moves to improve were not made. That being said, the only way I can think of that this past offseason could have been worse is signing an underachieving player to a LTC that in time becomes an albatross. Volquez is the most obvious example and IMO, we should thank our lucky stars he turned the extension down. However, you were probably the most ardent supporter of a Volquez LTC, were you not?

Yes I was, at a fairly cheap rate, and as crazy as this may sound, if the Reds can sign Volquez to a three year extension at a very cheap rate (3 yr/$18M?) I would still do it. I don't think Volquez is nearly this bad, though something obviously isn't right right now.

Aside from the Bruce/Cueto extensions, Jocketty did absolutely nothing last offseason. Failed to upgrade SS. Failed to upgrade LF. Failed to acquire a top-of-rotation starter while the Brewers went out and acquired two TOR arms. He wasted money on an unnecessary three year extension for Bronson Arroyo. He also decided to place Chapman back in the bullpen instead of stretching him out to be a starter. IMO, it was a disastrous offseason.

cinreds21
07-06-2011, 10:48 AM
Hammer is having a pretty bad year. He's not the worse option out there, buy with all his current injuries and injury history, I wouldn't be too optimistic that he would not spend more time on the disabeled list.

CySeymour
07-06-2011, 10:57 AM
One of the more puzzling non-moves seems to be not bringing up Cozart. It almost seems like Walt is somewhat hiding Cozart. Is it possible that the Reds feel he will not perform well at the Major League level, thus they don't want to expose him to Major League pitching thus possibly diminishing his trade value?

SirFelixCat
07-06-2011, 11:00 AM
This division is so winnable. I have to believe that Walt won't continue to let this team slug along like it has when we're just reaching the halfway mark. I still believe there will be some shuffling between the ML roster and AAA after the AS break.

We have some solid prospects performing well in AAA. The second half of this season is the opportune time to evaluate them at the next level, while also helping us this year.

We still have 4 more games vs division rivals...why wait til the break?!?!:(

Boss-Hog
07-06-2011, 01:23 PM
Yes I was, at a fairly cheap rate, and as crazy as this may sound, if the Reds can sign Volquez to a three year extension at a very cheap rate (3 yr/$18M?) I would still do it. I don't think Volquez is nearly this bad, though something obviously isn't right right now.

Aside from the Bruce/Cueto extensions, Jocketty did absolutely nothing last offseason. Failed to upgrade SS. Failed to upgrade LF. Failed to acquire a top-of-rotation starter while the Brewers went out and acquired two TOR arms. He wasted money on an unnecessary three year extension for Bronson Arroyo. He also decided to place Chapman back in the bullpen instead of stretching him out to be a starter. IMO, it was a disastrous offseason.
Fair enough...I definitely don't share your optimism on Volquez and never really have, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that you're sticking to your guns on this one. I don't disagree with anything else you said regarding the offseason and that nearly every decision/indecision has proven to be the wrong (Costanza-esque), but I'm a bit more open minded to the idea that this could have been heavily influenced by ownership than you appear to be.

edabbs44
07-06-2011, 01:41 PM
Yes I was, at a fairly cheap rate, and as crazy as this may sound, if the Reds can sign Volquez to a three year extension at a very cheap rate (3 yr/$18M?) I would still do it. I don't think Volquez is nearly this bad, though something obviously isn't right right now.

Aside from the Bruce/Cueto extensions, Jocketty did absolutely nothing last offseason. Failed to upgrade SS. Failed to upgrade LF. Failed to acquire a top-of-rotation starter while the Brewers went out and acquired two TOR arms. He wasted money on an unnecessary three year extension for Bronson Arroyo. He also decided to place Chapman back in the bullpen instead of stretching him out to be a starter. IMO, it was a disastrous offseason.

Who was available in LF and SS? Obviously Marcum and Greinke were available, but Milwaukee paid a hefty price in both players and salary. Its hard to fail something when there isn't much out there.

And, fwiw, I think we may be able to place a cease and desist on the whole LF thing for a bit. Especially when the offensive production we are seeing there is very comparable to the other positions in the OF, with much less expectations.

reds44
07-06-2011, 02:50 PM
Who was available in LF and SS? Obviously Marcum and Greinke were available, but Milwaukee paid a hefty price in both players and salary. Its hard to fail something when there isn't much out there.

And, fwiw, I think we may be able to place a cease and desist on the whole LF thing for a bit. Especially when the offensive production we are seeing there is very comparable to the other positions in the OF, with much less expectations.
Then move Phillips to SS and acquire a second baseman. You really can't defend Jocketty for doing nothing in the offseason right now.

757690
07-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Looks like the Giants have focused on Hernandez.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/giants-interested-in-ramon-hernandez.html

757690
07-06-2011, 03:42 PM
Then move Phillips to SS and acquire a second baseman. You really can't defend Jocketty for doing nothing in the offseason right now.

If Phillips was an option at SS, it would have been done years ago.

It's easy to defend the offseason. The team focused on signing the young ones long term. Jocketty has always favored mid-season deals and has done quite well with that philosophy, so it's not surprising, nor undefendable.

However, if nothing is done by the trading deadline, that would be undefendable.

edabbs44
07-06-2011, 05:51 PM
Then move Phillips to SS and acquire a second baseman. You really can't defend Jocketty for doing nothing in the offseason right now.

I guess that would depend on the alternatives.

cinreds21
07-06-2011, 06:06 PM
One of the more puzzling non-moves seems to be not bringing up Cozart. It almost seems like Walt is somewhat hiding Cozart. Is it possible that the Reds feel he will not perform well at the Major League level, thus they don't want to expose him to Major League pitching thus possibly diminishing his trade value?

I was going to say this exact same thing. It's either a loyalty issue Walt has with Janish and Renteria, or the Reds just don't think that Cozy is their answer at short.

Benihana
07-06-2011, 06:23 PM
I guess that would depend on the alternatives.

It's hard to discover alternatives when you don't talk to anyone (including other teams) at the Winter Meetings.

edabbs44
07-06-2011, 07:27 PM
It's hard to discover alternatives when you don't talk to anyone (including other teams) at the Winter Meetings.

This offseason there were a lot more names being dropped as to who Walt should have been trading and trading for. I don't see those names being used too much anymore. Now it is the generic positions. No more cries for Leake to be traded as part of a package to get Dejesus or Boxberger in a deal to get Willingham.

The team is 4 out with the same payroll flexibility they had in December with all their bullets in the chamber. A disaster would have been trading some of those prospects for a debacle like Willingham or Dejesus. Right now, they have the ability to make a move. Do the Brewers?

Benihana
07-06-2011, 07:37 PM
This offseason there were a lot more names being dropped as to who Walt should have been trading and trading for. I don't see those names being used too much anymore. Now it is the generic positions. No more cries for Leake to be traded as part of a package to get Dejesus or Boxberger in a deal to get Willingham.

The team is 4 out with the same payroll flexibility they had in December with all their bullets in the chamber. A disaster would have been trading some of those prospects for a debacle like Willingham or Dejesus. Right now, they have the ability to make a move. Do the Brewers?

Is that seriously the argument? You just said there's no one available right now. The Brewers already made their moves when players were clearly available. They acquired TWO TOR arms and are currently sitting in first place.

Personally, I never advocated trading Leake for DeJesus (and I challenge you to find otherwise). Upton, Kemp, Greinke? Sure. Still would do those moves. Reds would have been a better team for it.

Let's see if they use those bullets to do anything substantial in the next three weeks. If they do I'll be quiet and be happy. If they don't, I'll turn my attention elsewhere.

bucksfan2
07-07-2011, 01:16 PM
I heard Buster Yankee on the radio this morning and he was asked if the Rays would be buyers or sellers. He said both. He mentioned them maybe wanting to get rid of BJ Upton because of a salary increase next season. In return they would want a MLB ready player. Got me to thinking, would you trade Heisey (+) for Upton?

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 02:13 PM
Personally, I never advocated trading Leake for DeJesus (and I challenge you to find otherwise). Upton, Kemp, Greinke? Sure. Still would do those moves. Reds would have been a better team for it.
.

I think no one would've objected to adding Upton or Kemp.. Were they available though? If they were available, would you have traded Bruce or Wood, etc for them? Those guys aren't going to be traded for a handful of beans.

If the Reds had the cash to pay Grienke.. It would've taken a considerable amount of prospects.. The Brewers gave up 4 players and cash..


The Royals announced Sunday that they acquired shortstop Alcides Escobar,
outfielder Lorenzo Cain and right-handed pitching prospects Jake Odorizzi
and Jeremy Jeffress from the Brewers in exchange for Greinke, shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt
and cash considerations.



Comparable trade by Reds?
Cain - Heisey

Here's something about Jake Odorizzi

Jake Odorizzi | RHP (SP) | Kansas City Royals | D.o.B: 3/27/1990 | 6’2″ | 185 lbs | B/T: R/R | 1st rd, 2008 | MIL #1 prospect per Baseball America, 2011 | MiLB Player Page

The centerpiece to the Royals trading Zack Greinke to the Brewers; Odorizzi coincidentally has been compared to Greinke himself, albeit a lesser one. He was Milwakuee’s 2010 minor league pitcher of the year. Baseball America describes his mechanics as clean, effortless and easily repeated. With stellar command, he throws an 88 to 95 MPH sinking fastball and is able to maintains velocity deep into games. Although all his breaking pitches show good movement, none rank as a plus pitch and will need continued development. Often times, Odorizzi was able to ride his fastball without using many off-speed pitches. Scouts like his curveball best, slider is more of a cutter and changeup shows potential if he quits tipping the pitch with slower arm movement. Physically, he’s built for durability, mentally is poised and confident. Projects as a number two or three starter.


So maybe Travis Wood or Homer Bailey is a comparable talent?


Jefferies: 2006 first round draft pick. Has had pot problems.




Jeffress: Jeffress is a 6-0, 195 pound right-handed hitter and thrower, born September 21st, 1987. He is an outstanding natural athlete who generates easy velocity; he doesn't have a lot of effort in his delivery but still hits 95-100 MPH without problems. His fastball can be a bit straight but it's so fast that hitters still have a hard time picking it up, and he usually picks up a good number of grounders. His second pitch is a wicked curveball, giving him two overpowering offerings. Attempts to develop a changeup haven't worked out, but in relief the fastball/curveball combination is more than enough, as long as he throws strikes. His command is inconsistent. At times he does a good job throwing strikes and is unhittable when he does so, but he is still prone to overthrowing and will give up free passes when that happens. He has had no significant health issues.


I'm having a hard time thinking of a comparable player from the Reds.
I guess last winter, maybe Leake counts as this player?

Yuniesky Betancourt = Janish.. We might've been able to convince the Brewers of that last year. Or Maybe Cozart.

So maybe it costs the Reds Janish/Cozart, Heisey, Wood,Leake..
Would that have been a popular trade? I am guessing not, considering Grienke's salary, contract status, and 2010 being an off year for him. Although maybe if Homer could've been subbed for Wood, most people on the forum would've been on board. I don't know.. would you have done that trade last winter? Just curious

signalhome
07-07-2011, 02:50 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/331932/report-reyes-(hamstring)-to-miss-three-weeks

Looks like the Reyes ship may have sailed.

edabbs44
07-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Walt should have traded for him anyway. He is asleep.

cinreds21
07-10-2011, 11:46 PM
Anyone interested in Jeff Francoeur? He's hitting .265 with 10 bombs. Not the best, but someone who is going to be heavily scouted before the deadline. I'm not saying I want the Reds to go after him, but just another name to throw out there.

reds44
07-10-2011, 11:55 PM
He's not an upgrade.

cinreds21
07-10-2011, 11:59 PM
I didn't think so either. I do not like who is available this year. I think giving Frazier, Alonso or Sappelt is the best move for now.

reds44
07-11-2011, 12:08 AM
I don't think it's the personnel anymore. Short of getting a legit ace or a real cleanup hitter this team just has to start finding ways to win games.

The only guy out there who I could see fitting that is Beltran.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 12:33 AM
If Cozart keeps playing well, I hope that gives Walt reason/rational to continue to bump some of these guys playing well in AAA to the bigs. We got some good players down there.

HokieRed
07-11-2011, 12:52 AM
First move Walt should make with 2012 in mind is, IMHO, internal. He should start the process of moving Aroldis Chapman to the rotation.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2011, 01:52 PM
First move Walt should make with 2012 in mind is, IMHO, internal. He should start the process of moving Aroldis Chapman to the rotation.

Agreed!

I would start stretching him out immediately.

757690
07-14-2011, 03:36 PM
Reds Looking for Relief Help (http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/91559227872653313)