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corkedbat
06-22-2011, 11:33 PM
Now we'll hear for the next month that "Johnny has turned the corner" and they'll pont to this game no matter whether he hits .200 or not. They need to upgrade LF & SS no matter what Lewomesey and Janteria do short term.

edabbs44
06-22-2011, 11:41 PM
Dear Jonny,

Don't hit well. Ever. Not even if it helps the Reds win.

Sincerely,
Redszone

corkedbat
06-22-2011, 11:49 PM
Dear Jonny,

Don't hit well. Ever. Not even if it helps the Reds win.

Sincerely,
Redszone

Never said anything like that. I'm saying the positions should be upgraded regardless of short-term performance. He started in LF this year because of a hot month last year.

edabbs44
06-22-2011, 11:56 PM
Never said anything like that. I'm saying the positions should be upgraded regardless of short-term performance.

I don't think anyone thinks that one game means anything.

But he has improved his game since being benched in Cleveland. Before tonight, his line has been .389/.455/.528 in 44 PAs since the benching. OPS is likely now over 1.000.

Cincy likely has limited bullets in the way of prospects and money and could use some help at other positions as well. We'll probably see what Cozart can do, but I'd feel much better going into the stretch with the candidates we have in LF than the ones we have at SS.

Griffey012
06-23-2011, 12:02 AM
I don't think anyone thinks that one game means anything.

But he has improved his game since being benched in Cleveland. Before tonight, his line has been .389/.455/.528 in 44 PAs since the benching. OPS is likely now over 1.000.

Cincy likely has limited bullets in the way of prospects and money and could use some help at other positions as well. We'll probably see what Cozart can do, but I'd feel much better going into the stretch with the candidates we have in LF than the ones we have at SS.

It is because since then he has been used off the bench in a spot starting role facing pitchers he can be successful against. Will he be successful against most RHP, no. Will he be successful against the Brian Gordon's and Doug Davis's of the world, yes...and he always has been.

Some reason just because he was been used out of role as a starting OF, most cannot see that he can actually supply value as a backup LF'er and pinch hitter off the bench.

corkedbat
06-23-2011, 12:11 AM
It is because since then he has been used off the bench in a spot starting role facing pitchers he can be successful against. Will he be successful against most RHP, no. Will he be successful against the Brian Gordon's and Doug Davis's of the world, yes...and he always has been.

Some reason just because he was been used out of role as a starting OF, most cannot see that he can actually supply value as a backup LF'er and pinch hitter off the bench.

Agreed. I have no problem with Gomes as a 4th OFer and primary RH bench bat. Heisey, with his better glove and ability to play all three OF sports is better suited to that role though, IMO. The Reds don't have a starting LFer on the roster IMO, just reserves filling the role.

Griffey012
06-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Agreed. I have no problem with Gomes as a 4th OFer and primary RH bench bat. Heisey, with his better glove and ability to play all three OF sports is better suited to that role though, IMO. The Reds don't have a starting LFer on the roster IMO, just reserves filling the role.

Agreed, it is like we have three pieces to three different puzzles. There are three guys who can contribute value, but no clear way to fit them in together.

WVPacman
06-23-2011, 01:38 AM
Agreed. I have no problem with Gomes as a 4th OFer and primary RH bench bat. Heisey, with his better glove and ability to play all three OF sports is better suited to that role though, IMO. The Reds don't have a starting LFer on the roster IMO, just reserves filling the role.

Am I the only one that thinks Heisey should be the starting LFer? Lets see what this young kid can bring to the table being a everyday starter with enough atbats ofcourse.

Captain Hook
06-23-2011, 02:01 AM
Agreed, it is like we have three pieces to three different puzzles. There are three guys who can contribute value, but no clear way to fit them in together.

A good manager can figure this kind of problem out.Not that Dusty isn't a good manager because I think he has started handling who gets the playing time in LF much better lately.I'm almost to the point that I don't worry about who's starting out there.

corkedbat
06-23-2011, 02:41 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Heisey should be the starting LFer? Lets see what this young kid can bring to the table being a everyday starter with enough atbats ofcourse.

Heisey is alright as a 4th OFer and is probably a better soution than Gomes or Lewis long-term, but this team really needs to add an OF bat with enought pop to fit in the 4 or 5 hole and allow Rolen to move down. As much as I'd like to see the Reds add a bat like Kemp to the meat of the order, I'm not sure that this FO will make such a move though.

Even if they don't, I'm not convinced Heisey is the answer though. I just get the feeling that an extend trial will just expose flaws. I think I'd rather try Sappelt at the top of the order with Stubbs or Phillips moving down the order.

Guacarock
06-23-2011, 03:44 AM
Gomes has a .489 OBP and .595 SLG against left-handed pitchers -- making him by far the Reds' most lethal weapon facing southpaws. Only Bruce comes close to matching Gomes, given Bruce's .621 SLG against LHP along with a .378 OBP in those situations.

Gomes needs to be used correctly -- in a platoon where he primarily faces LHP -- while Heisey and Lewis go up against the righties. Gomes' splits against RHP -- a .294 OBP and .373 SLG this season -- are clear and dramatic evidence that he's not suited for everyday play, especially when coupled with his defense.

A lot of the carping against Gomes on Redszone is pretty tedious and misdirected, if you ask me. Play him in the proper situations and he can excel. Play him in the wrong situations and the warts are exposed. Dusty should have learned that by now and not waited so long this summer to work Heisey and Lewis into the LF mix.

Long-term, we do need to find a more consistent player to man LF, either internally within our system or via a trade. Until then, we can get the job covered by Gomes, Heisey and Lewis if they are played when they have the best chances to succeed, and held in reserve when they are more likely to fail.

Ron Madden
06-23-2011, 04:50 AM
Gomes has been hitting the ball hard of late and I'm happy for him. Jonny has some value, it's just not as an everyday OFer.

GADawg
06-23-2011, 07:26 AM
i'm living ground hog day I suppose...everyday I wake up to the same Gomes/Heisey thread...I think I'll just merge all of them into 1 and create the largest threadbeast the world has ever seen

edabbs44
06-23-2011, 08:05 AM
It is because since then he has been used off the bench in a spot starting role facing pitchers he can be successful against. Will he be successful against most RHP, no. Will he be successful against the Brian Gordon's and Doug Davis's of the world, yes...and he always has been.

Some reason just because he was been used out of role as a starting OF, most cannot see that he can actually supply value as a backup LF'er and pinch hitter off the bench.

In the same stretch he also had multi hit games in games started by Lowe, Garza and Bumgartner. He hasn't been used solely against bums in this stretch.

edabbs44
06-23-2011, 08:08 AM
Am I the only one that thinks Heisey should be the starting LFer? Lets see what this young kid can bring to the table being a everyday starter with enough atbats ofcourse.

Heisey is good for a splash every now and again. We had a thread like this 2 weeks ago after he took Kuroda yard. There was a lovefest thread started and then he disappeared for 2 weeks. It's obvious that Heisey struggles stringing together some solid starts. I am sure he has earned a few more starts, hopefully he can get something going.

traderumor
06-23-2011, 08:29 AM
Heisey is good for a splash every now and again. We had a thread like this 2 weeks ago after he took Kuroda yard. There was a lovefest thread started and then he disappeared for 2 weeks. It's obvious that Heisey struggles stringing together some solid starts. I am sure he has earned a few more starts, hopefully he can get something going.It's hard to string them together when your name is not on the lineup card.

edabbs44
06-23-2011, 08:40 AM
It's hard to string them together when your name is not on the lineup card.

And it's hard to put his name on the lineup card when he doesn't execute in those situations.

You have to make the most of your chances. It's funny, Heisey was being pimped on here after one game in LA. Then he hit the skids an even had (IIRC) a really bad defensive play in the past week or two. His backers completely bailed on him. Now Heisey is the darling again.

I am sure he'll see time in the AL parks. Hopefully he can continue his momentum.

Griffey012
06-23-2011, 04:04 PM
In the same stretch he also had multi hit games in games started by Lowe, Garza and Bumgartner. He hasn't been used solely against bums in this stretch.

I wasn't attempting to discredit Gomes here, I just mentioned Gordon cause he is a below average RHP and Davis because he is a lefty. He should start against any lefty, but would much rather take my chances with Lewis and Heisey against the tougher righties. I think it just makes more sense from an offensive and defensive perspective.

TRF
06-23-2011, 04:37 PM
Dear Jonny,

Don't hit well. Ever. Not even if it helps the Reds win.

Sincerely,
Redszone

Dear Redszone,

Don't worry, this won't last.

Sincerely,
Jonny Gomes

traderumor
06-23-2011, 04:58 PM
And it's hard to put his name on the lineup card when he doesn't execute in those situations.

You have to make the most of your chances. It's funny, Heisey was being pimped on here after one game in LA. Then he hit the skids an even had (IIRC) a really bad defensive play in the past week or two. His backers completely bailed on him. Now Heisey is the darling again.

I am sure he'll see time in the AL parks. Hopefully he can continue his momentum.
Those are some pretty broad, sweeping statements.

If Heisey was given the same number of starts to make the most of his chances as has been afforded Gomes this season, do you think the results would be different? And why is the performance in pinch hitting and coming off the bench situations minimized why elevating the starts to blowing chances?

Spot starts is certainly no way to audition someone for a full time job. Maybe Dusty has the hair-brained notion that starting Heisey weakens his bench. Honestly, I've been confused for two years running why Heisey is only seen as a 4-5 OFer by the decision makers.

If you ever want to set a guy up to fail, yank him around with few random starts here and there, then sit him again because he doesn't have 2 or more hits in those few games. Then make him watch his competition get start after start while hitting pop up after pop up. That seems to be the Reds strategy.

WVPacman
06-23-2011, 05:03 PM
It's hard to string them together when your name is not on the lineup card.

Exactly,I mean you can't tell say a player isn't starter worthy over a two week time.

WVPacman
06-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Heisey is alright as a 4th OFer and is probably a better soution than Gomes or Lewis long-term, but this team really needs to add an OF bat with enought pop to fit in the 4 or 5 hole and allow Rolen to move down. As much as I'd like to see the Reds add a bat like Kemp to the meat of the order, I'm not sure that this FO will make such a move though.

Even if they don't, I'm not convinced Heisey is the answer though. I just get the feeling that an extend trial will just expose flaws. I think I'd rather try Sappelt at the top of the order with Stubbs or Phillips moving down the order.

I agree with you on going out and trying to get a player with enought pop to fit in the 4 or 5 hole and allow Rolen to move down.If they can't find one thow I think they should give Heisey a chance but thats just me.

Ron Madden
06-24-2011, 05:49 AM
Dear Jonny,

Don't hit well. Ever. Not even if it helps the Reds win.

Sincerely,
Redszone


You have lost your mind.

GAC
06-24-2011, 06:19 AM
Gomes has a .489 OBP and .595 SLG against left-handed pitchers -- making him by far the Reds' most lethal weapon facing southpaws.

Gomes needs to be used correctly -- in a platoon where he primarily faces LHP -- while Heisey and Lewis go up against the righties.

First of - I hate platooning. It illustrates you have a problem and are using the resources at hand till a more sure solution can be found. Certainly Dusty, whom I respect, realizes these splits on Gomes. Yet I don't understand why he doesn't use Gomes more "correctly".

I remember the good ol' days when the Reds couldn't draft/develop pitching. Now it's LF?

mth123
06-24-2011, 07:09 AM
First of - I hate platooning. It illustrates you have a problem and are using the resources at hand till a more sure solution can be found. Certainly Dusty, whom I respect, realizes these splits on Gomes. Yet I don't understand why he doesn't use Gomes more "correctly".

I remember the good ol' days when the Reds couldn't draft/develop pitching. Now it's LF?

Platooning isn't my first choice either, but if the Reds are going to use up the rest of the budget and a lot of the minor league depth, it should be for a starting pitcher IMO. I think the positions can be addressed cheaply by trying Cozart at SS and acquiring a LH power type to platoon with Gomes in LF. Somebody like Luke Scott or Jason Kubel who can mash against RHP but appear lackluster on the surface because the overall numbers are dragged down by lefties would fix this line-up. Stubbs, Phillips, Votto and Bruce in the top 4. Gomes and his platoon mate mashing against their respective splits 5th with Rolen, the Catchers and Cozart rounding things out at the bottom. Even if Cozart falls flat and the team should have to go back to Janish all defense act, that should be enough from the position players. That would leave Alonso, Heisey, Sappelt, Grandal, et al to form a package for a rotation upgrade should one become available.

No matter how things look now, I just don't think the Reds should count on an injured guy like Homer, an iffy guy like Volquez or kids like Leake and Wood to be effective down the stretch. Adding an ace would be the preference if one becomes available (I'm having a hard time seeing who that might be) but even a solid dependable vet would probably wind-up being an upgrade when the dog days hit. If they could do that, hopefully they could piece togteher the rest of the rotation after Cueto, Arroyo and said vet from who is left standing among the other four (If I were a betting man, I'd say that the Reds finish the season with Cueto, Arroyo, Acquisition, Wood and Volquez as the rotation with Leake bumping into his innings limit and Bailey nursing his shoulder on the sidelines).

Griffey012
06-24-2011, 08:34 AM
First of - I hate platooning. It illustrates you have a problem and are using the resources at hand till a more sure solution can be found. Certainly Dusty, whom I respect, realizes these splits on Gomes. Yet I don't understand why he doesn't use Gomes more "correctly".

I remember the good ol' days when the Reds couldn't draft/develop pitching. Now it's LF?

Isn't that the point of platooning? You don't have a sure option in hand so you try to maximize the value the in house players can bring? It makes perfect sense if it is done correctly. I am not saying we should settle with out LF situation, because we shouldn't. But I would rather we admit there is an issue there and platoon guys then run 1 person out there and say he is our LF'er if it is not the best option.

Hoosier Red
06-24-2011, 11:04 AM
Isn't that the point of platooning? You don't have a sure option in hand so you try to maximize the value the in house players can bring? It makes perfect sense if it is done correctly. I am not saying we should settle with out LF situation, because we shouldn't. But I would rather we admit there is an issue there and platoon guys then run 1 person out there and say he is our LF'er if it is not the best option.

I think the platoon option with Heisey and Gomes works best as well. Heisey's splits are so extreme in favor of right handers, and Gomes' are so extreme in favor of lefties.

If you platoon those two, you can keep Lewis as your Lefty off the bench and it seems to solve everything.