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traderumor
08-15-2012, 10:55 AM
The Pirates are quickly falling out of the race, during their 11 game homestand they were supposed to use to leapfrog us. They are currently 3-6 on this homestand, with 2 games remaining vs. LA, and Kershaw coming up tonight. They then play 3 in St. Louis this weekend.

The Pirates simply don't have the pitching depth the Reds and Cards have.2002 Reds

vaticanplum
08-15-2012, 11:11 AM
There was a loooong segment on Root Sports last night about their "historic tanking" this year. I was out and only half paying attention the the closed captioning, but it still made me laugh out loud. They were comparing it to their previous collapses and trying to see where it fit in. I wanted to shout, THEY'RE NOT COLLAPSING. THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU ALL FOR MONTHS AND NO ONE LISTENED TO ME. But I did not.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-15-2012, 11:30 AM
Something I would have never thought I'd say just one week ago: Go Pirates this weekend in St. Louis!

LegallyMinded
08-15-2012, 11:46 AM
Regression to the mean. Hardcore.

Well said.

Regarding the pitching in particular: The first month of the season, the Pirates had a 2.78 ERA and a 3.95 xFIP. In the last month of games played, they have a 4.40 ERA and a 3.80 xFIP. Overall, now, they have a 3.78 ERA and a 3.99 xFIP, so on the season, they've regressed pretty much to where you would expect them to be based on their peripherals.


As a word of caution, of course, the Reds right now have a 3.37 ERA and a 3.81 xFIP. Let's hope the pitching staff doesn't catch the regression bug at least until Votto comes back.

Playadlc
08-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Anyone know of a good Pirates message board?

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 11:54 AM
I don't think it's fair to say the Pirates are "collapsing." They played over their heads for a long time. They're still a good team, and it's a year to be proud of. And who knows, maybe this is just one bad week, they'll turn it around and make the postseason. They're still a game up on the Cards, and the Cards have a much tougher schedule down the stretch, and are older.

757690
08-15-2012, 12:07 PM
To be fair, it's really not the Pirates folding, they just aren't able to catch up with the Reds who have outstanding over the last month. They are 12 games over .500 and on pace to win 90 games. They are still a contending team, something that many claimed they would not be this year.

PuffyPig
08-15-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't think it's fair to say the Pirates are "collapsing." They played over their heads for a long time. They're still a good team, and it's a year to be proud of. And who knows, maybe this is just one bad week, they'll turn it around and make the postseason. They're still a game up on the Cards, and the Cards have a much tougher schedule down the stretch, and are older.

The Cards approximately better run differential of about +80 suggests otherwise.

757690
08-15-2012, 12:24 PM
The Cards approximately better run differential of about +80 suggests otherwise.

Cards have been playing below their Pythag all season, which isn't uncommon for teams with a bad bullpen. Their pen keeps them from ever making true run.

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 12:30 PM
The Cards approximately better run differential of about +80 suggests otherwise.

Not arguing with you. I agree. I think the Cards DO pass them. But there are no guarantees in this sport. The Cards run differential says they should have the same record as us. But they don't.

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 12:30 PM
To be fair, it's really not the Pirates folding, they just aren't able to catch up with the Reds who have outstanding over the last month. They are 12 games over .500 and on pace to win 90 games. They are still a contending team, something that many claimed they would not be this year.

Absolutely agreed. Good post.

PuffyPig
08-15-2012, 12:31 PM
Not arguing with you. I agree. I think the Cards DO pass them. But there are no guarantees in this sport. The Cards run differential says they should have the same record as us. But they don't.


But the 80+ difference in run differential between the Cards and the Pirates suggests the teams are likely to go in opposite directions from here on out.

traderumor
08-15-2012, 12:33 PM
As for the Cards, they had crazy run differentials in May and July that comprise most of that number. So, the question is, do they have another one of those months left in them? Even so, they may not catch the Reds, but would probably take a WC with another spurt.

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 12:39 PM
But the 80+ difference in run differential between the Cards and the Pirates suggests the teams are likely to go in opposite directions from here on out.

Again, I agree with you. BUT... the Cards have a tough schedule down the stretch. And they're an older team. The Pirates are younger, and have an easier slate of games. It doesn't look good for them with Cutch coming back to earth and McDonald slumping. I think they'll miss the playoffs. But I hardly think it's over. Not yet. Now, if the Cards go up 5 games by the end of next week, it's another story.

camisadelgolf
08-15-2012, 12:45 PM
Anyone know of a good Pirates message board?
http://setonhall.rivals.com/forum.asp

smith288
08-15-2012, 12:46 PM
Anyone know of a good Pirates message board?
http://pittsburghsports.net/

kaldaniels
08-15-2012, 12:59 PM
Roll call.

Who has the Pirates making the postseason?

smith288
08-15-2012, 01:23 PM
Roll call.

Who has the Pirates making the postseason?
Not I.

bucksfan2
08-15-2012, 01:40 PM
Roll call.

Who has the Pirates making the postseason?

Are they better than the Reds, Cards, Dodgers, Giants, or the Braves? They would need to beat at least 4 of those teams in order to make the playoffs. I don't see it happening but crazier things have.

_Sir_Charles_
08-15-2012, 01:43 PM
But the 80+ difference in run differential between the Cards and the Pirates suggests the teams are likely to go in opposite directions from here on out.

But what does that have to do with how they're playing now? Run differential seems to be deceptive sometimes I think.

The Cards had a VERY hot start up until around May 9th or so.

On May 9th here's where the central standings (and differential) stood.

Cards (+75)
Reds (+6)
Pirates (-23)
Astros (+9)
Brewers (-30)
Cubs (-19)

Since then (standings now (run differential since the 9th)

Reds (+68)
Pirates (+43)
Cards (+32)
Brewers (+18)
Cubs (-75)
Astros (-156)

I think this second list is more indicative of what we all do moving forward.


Roll call.

Who has the Pirates making the postseason?

not me. But I don't have the Cards either. Reds, Nats & Dodgers win divisions. Giants & Braves take wild cards IMO. But I have the Pirates finishing second and the Cards third in the central.

WildcatFan
08-15-2012, 02:04 PM
Roll call.

Who has the Pirates making the postseason?

Not this year. Which is too bad for Pittsburgh fans, because I think they've caught lightning in a bottle. I don't see the run continuing.

Tom Servo
08-15-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm not ready to count the Pirates out, but I've never really believed that the wildcard teams will come out of the NL Central. I think it will be the Braves and the Giants/Dodgers runner up.

Brutus
08-15-2012, 02:13 PM
But what does that have to do with how they're playing now? Run differential seems to be deceptive sometimes I think.

The Cards had a VERY hot start up until around May 9th or so.

On May 9th here's where the central standings (and differential) stood.

Cards (+75)
Reds (+6)
Pirates (-23)
Astros (+9)
Brewers (-30)
Cubs (-19)

Since then (standings now (run differential since the 9th)

Reds (+68)
Pirates (+43)
Cards (+32)
Brewers (+18)
Cubs (-75)
Astros (-156)

I think this second list is more indicative of what we all do moving forward.



not me. But I don't have the Cards either. Reds, Nats & Dodgers win divisions. Giants & Braves take wild cards IMO. But I have the Pirates finishing second and the Cards third in the central.

Thanks for digging these numbers up, Charles.

I was wondering that myself. So much of the Cards' run differential was compiled in the first month of the season, I really wonder if it's a tad misleading as to what to expect down the stretch.

As far as Pittsburgh, while I figured they would be in line for a bit of a slump at some point, I'm not ready to bury them yet. I don't disagree with folks who suggest St. Louis probably has a better roster, but there's something about that club that seems to be lacking. Even last year, they weren't that good of a team for most of the season. They just happened to catch fire and finish on a tear. Maybe lightning will strike twice, but I am not convinced of that either.

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 02:27 PM
Are they better than the Reds, Cards, Dodgers, Giants, or the Braves? They would need to beat at least 4 of those teams in order to make the playoffs. I don't see it happening but crazier things have.

I think they're every bit as good as the Giants and Dodgers. Those teams are solid, but get way too much credit IMO. Neither of them scares me very much.

vaticanplum
08-15-2012, 04:08 PM
I think they're every bit as good as the Giants and Dodgers. Those teams are solid, but get way too much credit IMO. Neither of them scares me very much.

I agree with you on the Dodgers. I actually think the Giants are a bit underrated this year. They've covered for their injuries very well.

Re: Pirates in the playoffs, since I still think they're going to finish third in the division, I would have to say no.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2012, 04:27 PM
With Melky Cabrera suspended, I think the Giants will sputter pretty quickly.

westofyou
08-15-2012, 04:27 PM
I think they're every bit as good as the Giants and Dodgers. Those teams are solid, but get way too much credit IMO. Neither of them scares me very much.

Until you have to play in their parks, then it's a different game

cincrazy
08-15-2012, 04:54 PM
Until you have to play in their parks, then it's a different game

Fair point. But we held our own in San Fran this year, and even in LA, even though we lost two of three. I'm not saying they're poor teams, I just don't believe that they're clearly better than the Pirates.

hebroncougar
08-15-2012, 06:09 PM
Until you have to play in their parks, then it's a different game


Agreed, when I went to SF to watch the Reds this year I was shocked at how the ball didn't carry.

westofyou
08-15-2012, 06:17 PM
Agreed, when I went to SF to watch the Reds this year I was shocked at how the ball didn't carry.

I was at those games and it was warm for there, and yet the ball still dies

CrackerJack
08-15-2012, 06:42 PM
The Pirates?

Dennis Green "They are what we thought they were, and we let them off the hook!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWmQbk5h86w)

membengal
08-15-2012, 07:27 PM
No playoffs, but that doesn't mean I think the Pirates are a bad club or that they are not "for real". .

PuffyPig
08-15-2012, 07:30 PM
I think they're every bit as good as the Giants and Dodgers. Those teams are solid, but get way too much credit IMO. Neither of them scares me very much.

Look at the starting pitching of the 3 teams and think about which one(s) is likely to stand up all year.

Wonderful Monds
08-15-2012, 07:32 PM
Let's not all be so hasty to celebrate the demise of the Pirates. Even if they aren't completely ready to be WS contenders this year, they are going to be tough for a long time because they have the arms coming up to get there.

nate
08-15-2012, 07:34 PM
I think the Pirates are better than the Cubs and Astros.

:cool:

PuffyPig
08-15-2012, 07:35 PM
Let's not all be so hasty to celebrate the demise of the Pirates. Even if they aren't completely ready to be WS contenders this year, they are going to be tough for a long time because they have the arms coming up to get there.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Pirates don't have a decent future.

But their current starters certainly aren't likely to be even as good next year as this year (assuming Burnett and Bedard are even back), and those arms in the minors are some time away from being decent starters.

Wonderful Monds
08-15-2012, 07:42 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Pirates don't have a decent future.

But their current starters certainly aren't likely to be even as good next year as this year (assuming Burnett and Bedard are even back), and those arms in the minors are some time away from being decent starters.

Bedard I think it's pretty safe to say is a fluke, at least, he'll never be durable enough to be reliable. Burnett though I think could have a decent resurrection in the NL central for awhile.

And who knows, the Pirates strike me as a team that if the difference between being top competitors or not means spending a few dollars, would be the type to go get a free agent Anibal Sanchez or something in the offseason.

WebScorpion
08-16-2012, 05:32 AM
Next season is going to be a little bit tougher for all the NL Central teams without Houston to beat up on. ;)

Vottomatic
08-16-2012, 11:53 AM
Bedard I think it's pretty safe to say is a fluke, at least, he'll never be durable enough to be reliable. Burnett though I think could have a decent resurrection in the NL central for awhile.

And who knows, the Pirates strike me as a team that if the difference between being top competitors or not means spending a few dollars, would be the type to go get a free agent Anibal Sanchez or something in the offseason.

Reds hitters need to be more patient the next time they face Burnett. He doesn't throw strikes. He throws near strikes. And if the right ump is behind the plate, Burnett would be in trouble with patient hitters. I believe he lead MLB or the AL in walks one year, and usually has a high walk count. The AL knows this and that's why he had less success over there. The NL isn't quite onto him yet.

It's far from an exact representation, but I have a mlb app on my Iphone which is pretty fun. You hit and you also pitch (pick one of the 3 to 4 pitches your pitcher can throw and then you pick a spot to throw it). You can steal bases and bunt too. When I play the Pirates, I got a chuckle at how many balls Burnett threw to me. And it seems, like Reds hitters, I swung at alot of balls being overaggressive. Gave me a chuckle.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2012, 12:39 PM
Reds hitters need to be more patient the next time they face Burnett. He doesn't throw strikes. He throws near strikes. And if the right ump is behind the plate, Burnett would be in trouble with patient hitters. I believe he lead MLB or the AL in walks one year, and usually has a high walk count. The AL knows this and that's why he had less success over there. The NL isn't quite onto him yet.

It's far from an exact representation, but I have a mlb app on my Iphone which is pretty fun. You hit and you also pitch (pick one of the 3 to 4 pitches your pitcher can throw and then you pick a spot to throw it). You can steal bases and bunt too. When I play the Pirates, I got a chuckle at how many balls Burnett threw to me. And it seems, like Reds hitters, I swung at alot of balls being overaggressive. Gave me a chuckle.
The Reds lack patience as a team. I don't know whether it's the philosophy of management (Jacoby and Dusty) or simply these guys are impatient. The worst offenders are obvious. You can't argue with success, but I mentioned in the last game thread that AJ wasn't throwing strikes and he wasn't. Then you had so many just flailing away at bad pitches. Hopefully, somebody studies film.

I still don't count out the Pirates. 7 games is a lot to make up. I'm rooting for them to take care of thed redbirds this weekend while we continue to win. Probably false hope. They seem to be in freefall.

Kc61
08-16-2012, 12:47 PM
Too bad the Pirates decided to pitch Burnett tonight against LA. They could have saved him for the Cards tomorrow.

They advanced AJ to face the Reds, but I guess Pirates are pretty desperate to get a win tonight. Blanton pitching for the Dodgers.

Vottomatic
08-16-2012, 12:51 PM
Last night's effort against Dickey gave me hope that they'll change their approach next time against Burnett.

They were too patient against Dickey other times they saw him. The dude throws alot of first pitch strikes. I think they said last night that Dickey threw 22 first pitch strikes the last time the Reds faced him. And he was around the plate for the most part except for the knuckler that acted like a slider to the ground. Reds hitters were hacking away and it paid off.

Against Burnett, I hope they've learned that patience pays off against him. Getting him 2-0, 3-0 and make him throw a strike and then take your chances. In the past, Burnett, has had trouble with walks. He's a nibbler. Make him accountable. I hope they do.

CrackerJack
08-16-2012, 01:34 PM
No playoffs, but that doesn't mean I think the Pirates are a bad club or that they are not "for real". .

If you want to crown 'em, then crown their *bleep!*

;)

Tom Servo
08-16-2012, 02:05 PM
No word on whether Walker will need a DL stint or not, but he's not playing tonight.

westofyou
08-16-2012, 03:25 PM
http://baseballmusings.com/?p=87443



Pittsburgh has now lost seven of their last nine games. The pitching is the main culprit, as the team allowed 66 runs in those nine games. The starters own a 6.62 ERA in that time, their biggest problem home runs allowed, nine in 51 2/3 innings. They’ve only walked 15, however.

The starters allowed 66 hits over those innings, and given their strikeout rate, that seems a bit high. Better defense would help. This may just be a slump, as opposed to Pittsburgh falling back to their actual level of play.

medford
08-16-2012, 04:34 PM
Too bad the Pirates decided to pitch Burnett tonight against LA. They could have saved him for the Cards tomorrow.

They advanced AJ to face the Reds, but I guess Pirates are pretty desperate to get a win tonight. Blanton pitching for the Dodgers.

AJ Burnett is perfect thru 1 inning. Did you read that? PERFECT!!!!

(Did I mention Jake Westbrook has yet to give up a hit today :) )

Jones hits a 3 run bomb, Pirates up 3-0 in the fist.

vaticanplum
08-16-2012, 04:43 PM
For the record, Garrett Jones is my most-loathed Pirate. Burnett is probably second. Update your ledgers.

edit: Immediately after I wrote that, Jones had a two-homer game. Oy.

Chip R
08-16-2012, 11:02 PM
For the record, Garrett Jones is my most-loathed Pirate. Burnett is probably second. Update your ledgers.

edit: Immediately after I wrote that, Jones had a two-homer game. Oy.

I'd have thought Burnett would be #1 on your hitlist because of his (non) performance while with the Yankees.

vaticanplum
08-17-2012, 12:14 AM
I'd have thought Burnett would be #1 on your hitlist because of his (non) performance while with the Yankees.

Don't even get me started on how Burnett does jack with the Yankees despite constant teasing, is a jerk to boot, goes to the Pirates, immediately gets nailed in the eye with a baseball, and proceeds to become the shining invincible unicorn of their rotation.

I just really hate Garrett Jones. I feel like he's spoiled every game I've seen the Reds play at PNC. But don't worry, I have plenty of loathing to go around.

traderumor
08-17-2012, 01:08 PM
Well, Burnett has been anything but stellar since his shutdown of the Reds. Their rotation is in a severe slump, and it is unlikely to get any relief this weekend against the Cards, who I am sure are realistically eyeing the WC while still politely giving lip service to the Divisional crown.

RedlegJake
08-17-2012, 05:03 PM
I'm not ready to trade in lip service for real aspirations just yet. It may be a lot to overcome but they (neither Cards nor Pirates) aren't incapable of a run and the Reds aren't proof against a maddening slump either. I want about 15 more wins in the next 20 before I start crowing. I know the Reds are in the cat-bird's seat but I've never felt comfortable with any lead in August with the sole exception of the '76 club.

traderumor
08-18-2012, 09:53 AM
Well, Burnett has been anything but stellar since his shutdown of the Reds. Their rotation is in a severe slump, and it is unlikely to get any relief this weekend against the Cards, who I am sure are realistically eyeing the WC while still politely giving lip service to the Divisional crown.
Ok, been boasting about correct predictions, so I'll have to point out that apparently James MacDonald found the form last night. I am so conflicted about how I want this series to go. I want the Pirates to spiral down the drain to feel vindicated as a doubter, but then the Cardinals are the boogeyman, lurking, waiting to pounce and run off a miracle dash to the finish again.

I guess the Reds 3 of 4 and a sweep by the Pirates would be most helpful, but then would that mean they aren't the Pyrates? I'm so confused. :confused::lol:

RichRed
08-18-2012, 10:35 AM
Ok, been boasting about correct predictions, so I'll have to point out that apparently James MacDonald found the form last night. I am so conflicted about how I want this series to go. I want the Pirates to spiral down the drain to feel vindicated as a doubter, but then the Cardinals are the boogeyman, lurking, waiting to pounce and run off a miracle dash to the finish again.

I guess the Reds 3 of 4 and a sweep by the Pirates would be most helpful, but then would that mean they aren't the Pyrates? I'm so confused. :confused::lol:

I'm just rooting for some 14-13 type games (not off to a good start there) and two worn out pitching staffs in that series. A couple 15-inning games would be nice too.

Kc61
08-18-2012, 11:15 AM
Ok, been boasting about correct predictions, so I'll have to point out that apparently James MacDonald found the form last night. I am so conflicted about how I want this series to go. I want the Pirates to spiral down the drain to feel vindicated as a doubter, but then the Cardinals are the boogeyman, lurking, waiting to pounce and run off a miracle dash to the finish again.

I guess the Reds 3 of 4 and a sweep by the Pirates would be most helpful, but then would that mean they aren't the Pyrates? I'm so confused. :confused::lol:

The Cards are not pouncing on anybody IMO. They are not a viable competitor for the Central title this year.

The Pirates are the Reds' competition now.

The Washington Nationals have the best record in the major leagues. The Cards have to play them seven times. The Cards have to play on the west coast with four in LA. The Cards are now 8 games out with two team in front of them.

I hate to say the Cards are done, it's an extreme statement. I think the Cards are done, except maybe for a Wild Card.

RedsManRick
08-18-2012, 11:23 AM
In the FWIW department, Cool Standings sees the Pirates and Cards in a virtual dead heat. The Wild Card spots will be a contest between Pittsburgh, St. Louis and whoever doesn't win the West. Note that while this takes in to account strength of schedule, it uses just performance to date as the measure of team quality. So it's model doesn't "know" that LA has Victorino or Blanton, nor that SF has Pence but not Cabrera.

If I personally was handicapping the race, I'd say that LA has the inside track on the West and then it's a total crapshoot for the Wild Card spots.



2012 NL Standings
East W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
Washington 74 45 .622 - 531 424 99.2 62.8 69.9 29.0 99.0
Atlanta 70 49 .588 4 558 464 95.8 66.2 30.1 64.8 94.9
New York 56 63 .471 18 519 549 76.7 85.3 <0.1 0.2 0.2
Philadelphia 54 65 .454 20 484 530 72.8 89.2 0.0 <0.1 <0.1
Miami 54 66 .450 20.5 445 538 71.4 90.6 0.0 <0.1 <0.1

Central W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
Cincinnati 72 47 .605 - 515 436 97.5 64.5 85.1 11.9 97.1
Pittsburgh 66 53 .555 6 497 478 89.0 73.0 7.3 39.6 47.0
St. Louis 64 55 .538 8 578 470 89.2 72.8 7.6 42.1 49.7
Milwaukee 54 64 .458 17.5 543 549 75.8 86.2 <0.1 0.1 0.1
Chicago 46 71 .393 25 432 525 65.4 96.6 0.0 0.0 0.0
Houston 39 81 .325 33.5 451 605 54.5 107.5 0.0 0.0 0.0

West W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
San Francisco 65 54 .546 - 511 477 88.2 73.8 50.6 4.4 55.0
Los Angeles 65 55 .542 0.5 480 450 86.8 75.2 34.4 4.9 39.3
Arizona 60 59 .504 5 533 499 84.0 78.0 15.0 2.8 17.8
San Diego 52 69 .430 14 450 527 69.3 92.7 <0.1 <0.1 <0.1
Colorado 45 72 .385 19 559 673 64.3 97.7 0.0 0.0 0.0

redsfandan
08-18-2012, 11:29 AM
In the FWIW department, Cool Standings sees the Pirates and Cards in a virtual dead heat. The Wild Card spots will be a contest between Pittsburgh, St. Louis and whoever doesn't win the West. Note that while this takes in to account strength of schedule, it uses just performance to date as the measure of team quality. So it's model doesn't "know" that LA has Victorino or Blanton, nor that SF has Pence but not Cabrera.



2012 NL Standings
East W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
Washington 74 45 .622 - 531 424 99.2 62.8 69.9 29.0 99.0
Atlanta 70 49 .588 4 558 464 95.8 66.2 30.1 64.8 94.9
New York 56 63 .471 18 519 549 76.7 85.3 <0.1 0.2 0.2
Philadelphia 54 65 .454 20 484 530 72.8 89.2 0.0 <0.1 <0.1
Miami 54 66 .450 20.5 445 538 71.4 90.6 0.0 <0.1 <0.1

Central W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
Cincinnati 72 47 .605 - 515 436 97.5 64.5 85.1 11.9 97.1
Pittsburgh 66 53 .555 6 497 478 89.0 73.0 7.3 39.6 47.0
St. Louis 64 55 .538 8 578 470 89.2 72.8 7.6 42.1 49.7
Milwaukee 54 64 .458 17.5 543 549 75.8 86.2 <0.1 0.1 0.1
Chicago 46 71 .393 25 432 525 65.4 96.6 0.0 0.0 0.0
Houston 39 81 .325 33.5 451 605 54.5 107.5 0.0 0.0 0.0

West W L PCT GB RS RA EXPW EXPL DIV WC POFF
San Francisco 65 54 .546 - 511 477 88.2 73.8 50.6 4.4 55.0
Los Angeles 65 55 .542 0.5 480 450 86.8 75.2 34.4 4.9 39.3
Arizona 60 59 .504 5 533 499 84.0 78.0 15.0 2.8 17.8
San Diego 52 69 .430 14 450 527 69.3 92.7 <0.1 <0.1 <0.1
Colorado 45 72 .385 19 559 673 64.3 97.7 0.0 0.0 0.0


I'm confused. What about Atlanta?

LoganBuck
08-18-2012, 11:38 AM
I'm confused. What about Atlanta?

Two wild card spots, he assumes Atlanta takes the first.

redsfandan
08-18-2012, 11:42 AM
Two wild card spots, he assumes Atlanta takes the first.

Gotcha. Thanks. The way he wrote it threw me off.

Kc61
08-18-2012, 12:21 PM
Don't write off the Pirates to challenge the Reds quite yet. They are six behind and they play a lot of road games, which hurts them. But here is the Pirates schedule after this weekend v. the Cards. Home and away not indicated, but many are on the road.

SD3
Mil3
StL3
Mil3
Hou3
Chi3
Cin3
Chi4
Mil3
Hou3
NYM4
Cin3
Atl3

RedsManRick
08-18-2012, 12:47 PM
I'm confused. What about Atlanta?

You forgot one crucial fact.

I'm a moron.

Despite LoganBuck's defense, I completely forgot about Atlanta. But yeah, what he said. It's a race for the 2nd spot.

Tony Cloninger
08-18-2012, 04:21 PM
The Cards are not pouncing on anybody IMO. They are not a viable competitor for the Central title this year.

The Pirates are the Reds' competition now.

The Washington Nationals have the best record in the major leagues. The Cards have to play them seven times. The Cards have to play on the west coast with four in LA. The Cards are now 8 games out with two team in front of them.

I hate to say the Cards are done, it's an extreme statement. I think the Cards are done, except maybe for a Wild Card.



They are a contender for the WC....and if they can be buried now, with a stake through the heart....and NOT think they can do what they did last year. ...I am rooting for the Pirates.

RedlegJake
08-18-2012, 04:32 PM
They are a contender for the WC....and if they can be buried now, with a stake through the heart....and NOT think they can do what they did last year. ...I am rooting for the Pirates.

Me too. I like the Pirates when compared to the Cardinals. A lot. Meaning I despise the Cardinals. I hope the Pirates sweep them. As long as the Reds keep winning it won't matter who the Pirates beat. That simple. I want the Cards buried.

Kc61
08-18-2012, 04:35 PM
They are a contender for the WC....and if they can be buried now, with a stake through the heart....and NOT think they can do what they did last year. ...I am rooting for the Pirates.

Ok, don't complain when the Pirates face the Brewers, Cubs, Astros and Mets virtually every day in September. You will have rooted for them to stay in contention in August.

Not blaming you if things go bad, although maybe I am, LOL.

P.S. just look at the Cards schedule, they will be finished soon enough.

traderumor
08-18-2012, 04:39 PM
The Cards are not pouncing on anybody IMO. They are not a viable competitor for the Central title this year.

The Pirates are the Reds' competition now.

The Washington Nationals have the best record in the major leagues. The Cards have to play them seven times. The Cards have to play on the west coast with four in LA. The Cards are now 8 games out with two team in front of them.

I hate to say the Cards are done, it's an extreme statement. I think the Cards are done, except maybe for a Wild Card.I hear ya, but I was surprised when I started running off my predictions series by series. Of course, I could miss it completely, but I think they'll hold their own, while the Pirates will be scraping to play above .500. But then that's because I think the Cards are a better team than the Pirates for the stretch run, regardless of opposition.

Kc61
08-18-2012, 04:50 PM
I hear ya, but I was surprised when I started running off my predictions series by series. Of course, I could miss it completely, but I think they'll hold their own, while the Pirates will be scraping to play above .500. But then that's because I think the Cards are a better team than the Pirates for the stretch run, regardless of opposition.

Of course, it's impossible to tell. And one thing against the Bucs is that they have a lot of road games and they aren't that good on the road.

There is a pretty dramatic difference in schedules though, and I'm worried that the Pirates will get hot against very poor competition in September.

And, of course, down the stretch, it's hard to tell which opposing teams will play hard, which will use minor leaguers, etc.

I just think it will be very, very hard for the Cards. They have four in DC and four in LA. Very tough games. Plus they play Cincy six, Pitt. 5 (including today) they play in SD. Three at home against the Nats. And they are now 8 games out with two teams ahead of them.

I think the task for the Cards is pretty overwhelming.

The Pirates have a cupcake schedule, we'll be rooting for the Astros, Cubs, Mets and Brewers to beat them, I'd rather have them lose some games now.

But of course you never know and the Cards have a great hitting team with a pythag that indicates they can play better.

Wait until the weekend is over, we can all root for BOTH to lose every day.

mth123
08-18-2012, 05:08 PM
Of course, it's impossible to tell. And one thing against the Bucs is that they have a lot of road games and they aren't that good on the road.

There is a pretty dramatic difference in schedules though, and I'm worried that the Pirates will get hot against very poor competition in September.

And, of course, down the stretch, it's hard to tell which opposing teams will play hard, which will use minor leaguers, etc.

I just think it will be very, very hard for the Cards. They have four in DC and four in LA. Very tough games. Plus they play Cincy six, Pitt. 5 (including today) they play in SD. And they are now 8 games out with two teams ahead of them.

I think the task for the Cards is pretty overwhelming.

If the Reds go 22 and 20 the rest of the way, they will win 95 games. The Pirates could play .650 ball the rest of the way and fall a game short. I'm not worried about anybody but the Reds as far as the Division goes. I'm not the Card hater than many are, but they've won a lot in recent times and I'd just as soon see them out of the play-offs altogether with some new blood getting a sniff. Go Pirates (against the Cards anyway).

The Pirates have a cupcake schedule, we'll be rooting for the Astros, Cubs, Mets and Brewers to beat them, I'd rather have them lose some games now.

But of course you never know and the Cards have a great hitting team with a pythag that indicates they can play better.

Wait until the weekend is over, we can all root for BOTH to lose every day.

If the Reds go 22 and 20 they'll win 95 games. If the Pirates play .650 ball they'll fall short. The Reds only need to worry about the Reds. I'm not a Card hater like many, but they've won enough. Lets get some new blood sniffing the post season. Go Pirates (against the Cards anyway).

RichRed
08-19-2012, 07:25 PM
A couple 15-inning games would be nice too.

One 17-inning game will have to do!

cumberlandreds
08-20-2012, 08:24 AM
One 17-inning game will have to do!

Make that 19. The Pirates shot everything they had into that game. It will be intersting to see how that game affects them this week.

Unassisted
08-20-2012, 12:49 PM
Make that 19. The Pirates shot everything they had into that game. It will be intersting to see how that game affects them this week.I didn't mind a bit watching the only other teams in the Reds division with records over .500 expend so much effort and so much pitching into a single game. :D

cumberlandreds
08-20-2012, 12:59 PM
I didn't mind a bit watching the only other teams in the Reds division with records over .500 expend so much effort and so much pitching into a single game. :D

I didn't either. I watched every bit of the extra innings form the 10th forward. Enjoyed every minute of it. I really loved the 17th when they both scored a run. :D

_Sir_Charles_
08-20-2012, 07:15 PM
Make that 19. The Pirates shot everything they had into that game. It will be intersting to see how that game affects them this week.

I'm confused. How is this damaging to them any more than yesterday's double-header was to us?

hebroncougar
08-20-2012, 07:28 PM
I'm confused. How is this damaging to them any more than yesterday's double-header was to us?

We didn't use the next day's starter in the 19 inning affair. We got to call up an extra player, specifically to pitch.

cumberlandreds
08-21-2012, 08:32 AM
I'm confused. How is this damaging to them any more than yesterday's double-header was to us?

Reds used a lot less pitchers and didn't have to use a starter in relief. Anytime you have to do that its damaging to a pitching staff. Especially this late in the season.

WebScorpion
08-22-2012, 01:41 AM
2 days later and it looks like the Pirates are going extra innings again. They tied it up in the top of the 9th and McCutcheon saved the game running down a walk-off extra base hit in the bottom half. Bonus baseball in San Diego!

Brutus
08-22-2012, 02:09 AM
The Pirates are 19-19 since the All-Star Break. They're starting to show they are who we thought they are -- a much improved team that is probably still a year or two away from truly competing.

They're by no means out of the race, but 7.5 games is a lot to make up with less than 40 games left, and I'm not sure they're cut out to go on that kind of streak.

757690
08-22-2012, 02:20 AM
The Pirates are 19-19 since the All-Star Break. They're starting to show they are who we thought they are -- a much improved team that is probably still a year or two away from truly competing.

They're by no means out of the race, but 7.5 games is a lot to make up with less than 40 games left, and I'm not sure they're cut out to go on that kind of streak.

Still, that 19-19 is better than anything they've done in the last 19 years ;)

WebScorpion
08-22-2012, 02:26 AM
The Pirates are 19-19 since the All-Star Break. They're starting to show they are who we thought they are -- a much improved team that is probably still a year or two away from truly competing.

They're by no means out of the race, but 7.5 games is a lot to make up with less than 40 games left, and I'm not sure they're cut out to go on that kind of streak.
Their only saving grace now is that they have 6 games head-to-head with us still. If they sweep those, they've only got to make up a game and a half. Not easy, but it does kind of still leave them in command of their own destiny.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 04:07 AM
Their only saving grace now is that they have 6 games head-to-head with us still. If they sweep those, they've only got to make up a game and a half. Not easy, but it does kind of still leave them in command of their own destiny.

That's true, but fortunately the probability of sweeping the Reds, based on current Pythag/Log5 projections, is a robust 1%. It's only about 6% that they would take five of six remaining games.

:thumbup:

Sea Ray
08-22-2012, 10:14 AM
The Pirates are 19-19 since the All-Star Break. They're starting to show they are who we thought they are -- a much improved team that is probably still a year or two away from truly competing.

They're by no means out of the race, but 7.5 games is a lot to make up with less than 40 games left, and I'm not sure they're cut out to go on that kind of streak.

I'm not sure that another year or two will help them. Will McCutcheon be better in a year or two? What about Burnett and Hanrahan? I'd argue that those three in particular are having career years.

Vottomatic
08-22-2012, 10:40 AM
Pirates have the easiest remaining schedule of the Reds, Cards, and Pie-rats.

Red Rover
08-22-2012, 10:49 AM
Pirates have the easiest remaining schedule of the Reds, Cards, and Pie-rats.

As they did 2 games ago and the Reds still added to their lead. Schedules mean very little, its how your team is playing during a giving stretch.

Vottomatic
08-22-2012, 11:07 AM
As they did 2 games ago and the Reds still added to their lead. Schedules mean very little, its how your team is playing during a giving stretch.

I agree.

I wasn't saying they'd overtake the Reds. In fact, I find it interesting that the Reds are overcoming their bumps in the road, and the Pirates with an easier schedule should be but aren't.

Honestly, I wasn't saying any of that either. :D

I was simply putting it out there.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 11:10 AM
As they did 2 games ago and the Reds still added to their lead. Schedules mean very little, its how your team is playing during a giving stretch.

Ok, but when the Pirates get into their cupcake September schedule we'll see how the board feels about that. I can see the posts now: "Another Bucs game against the Astros and Cubs (they have 13), who made up this schedule?"

In all the posts on this, nobody thought this series at SD was easy for the Bucs. Padres play pretty well at home. Particularly after the 19 inning debacle with no off day for the Bucs. This week is challenging for the Reds AND Pirates (not Cards playing Stros).

Schedule is not everything but I wish the Reds had the Bucs schedule in September. And I'm glad if the Reds can take advantage when the Pirates do have tough games, they do have some left.

bucksfan2
08-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Ok, but when the Pirates get into their cupcake September schedule we'll see how the board feels about that. I can see the posts now: "Another Bucs game against the Astros and Cubs (they have 13), who made up this schedule?"

In all the posts on this, nobody thought this series at SD was easy for the Bucs. Padres play pretty well at home. Particularly after the 19 inning debacle with no off day for the Bucs. This week is challenging for the Reds AND Pirates (not Cards playing Stros).

Schedule is not everything but I wish the Reds had the Bucs schedule in September. And I'm glad if the Reds can take advantage when the Pirates do have tough games, they do have some left.

Schedule absolutely means alot. Playing the Astros is almost a guaranteed series win if not a sweep. The Cubs are pretty bad but still have a lineup that can score some runs. The Cubs look like a division winner compared to the Astros.

The thing about head to head match ups is they really only matter if there is a sweep. If the Pirates win both series but there is no sweep they would pick up 2 games. I am hopeful that the Reds will enter the last series of the year with over a 3 game lead. If they do that series in Pittsburgh will be meaningless. The Reds will be sitting players and setting their postseason rotation while the Pirates will be going all out in an attempt to win.

The way I look at, if the Reds win one game in each of their head to head series with the Cards and Bucs they will win the division. Its pretty hard to make up ground when you only gain one game at the most.

Vottomatic
08-22-2012, 12:16 PM
In a way, getting cupcakes after the trading deadline, typically makes them even lighter cupcakes because they usually trade away their best pitchers (i.e. Dempster). They are building for the future and want to bring up their young'uns.

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Ok, but when the Pirates get into their cupcake September schedule we'll see how the board feels about that. I can see the posts now: "Another Bucs game against the Astros and Cubs (they have 13), who made up this schedule?"



The Reds have 9 games left vs. the Astros and the Cubs.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 12:26 PM
The Reds have 9 games left vs. the Astros and the Cubs.

Yes. But overall Pirates have the most games against these weak teams.

Mets said yesterday that Matt Harvey likely won't finish the season to hold down his innings. Santana may be shut down due to injury. Mets outscored 86-40 at home since ASB. Terry Collins denying the team has packed it in. Pirates play four with Mets in late September.

Brewers horrendous on the road play 6 in Pittsburgh.

I'm not predicting the Pirates will win the division, just that they have an advantage in the September schedule.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 12:31 PM
DP.

Scrap Irony
08-22-2012, 12:38 PM
Yes. But overall Pirates have the most games against these weak teams.

Mets said yesterday that Matt Harvey likely won't finish the season to hold down his innings. Santana may be shut down due to injury. Mets outscored 86-40 at home since ASB. Terry Collins denying the team has packed it in. Pirates play four with Mets in late September.

Brewers horrendous on the road play 6 in Pittsburgh.

I'm not predicting the Pirates will win the division, just that they have an advantage in the September schedule.

Just curious, what do you think their record or winning percentage will be in September?

757690
08-22-2012, 12:46 PM
In a way, getting cupcakes after the trading deadline, typically makes them even lighter cupcakes because they usually trade away their best pitchers (i.e. Dempster). They are building for the future and want to bring up their young'uns.

I've seen quite a few cupcake teams best up on contending teams in September. Sometimes those young'uns who are hungry and trying to impress, help the team win better than the tired old veterans who are just collecting a check.

OesterPoster
08-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Pirates have 14 games in 14 days prior to that series with the Reds, then 6 more in a row to finish the season with 20 games in a row. They've only got 2 off days in September. The Reds have 4 off days in September, including one the week of the Pirates series at the end of September. Once the Reds get to their August 30th off day, the longest stretch of consecutive days with games is 9.

Gotta think that's a little more favorable, taking opponents out of the equation.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 02:20 PM
I'm not sure that another year or two will help them. Will McCutcheon be better in a year or two? What about Burnett and Hanrahan? I'd argue that those three in particular are having career years.

Starling Marte will presumably be better but more importantly, those young pitchers they have mowing down hitters in the minors could be ready to pitch. Gerritt Cole, for instance, looks like he's going to be really good.

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Starling Marte will presumably be better but more importantly, those young pitchers they have mowing down hitters in the minors could be ready to pitch. Gerritt Cole, for instance, looks like he's going to be really good.

But young starting pitchers often take 2-3 years or more to become solid major league starters. And, for the most part, those young starters aren't knocking on the door yet.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 03:11 PM
But young starting pitchers often take 2-3 years or more to become solid major league starters. And, for the most part, those young starters aren't knocking on the door yet.

Gerrit Cole is already pitching in AA and doing quite well (3:1 K:BB with a 1.67 GB:FB). I'd say that's definitely knocking on the door.

There's been talk that he has a legitimate shot of making the club out of spring training next season. And he might be one of those guys that makes an impact immediately.

Taillon is probably a little further off, but he could make an appearance late next season.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 05:36 PM
Just curious, what do you think their record or winning percentage will be in September?

Here's a hypothetical breakdown. Starting this coming weekend. Assumes Pirates are in the race and playing reasonably well without collapse. Assumes all games are meaningful for all teams. Obviously a wild guess.

13 with Astros and Cubs - 9 wins 4 losses.

9 with Brewers. - 6 wins 3 losses.

4 with Mets - 3 wins 1 loss

6 with Reds - 3 wins 3 losses

3 with Braves - 1 win 2 losses

3 with Cards (at Pitt) 2 wins 1 loss.

That would be 24 and 14 for the Pirates for the rest of the season following today's game. Again, a wild guess.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 05:40 PM
Here's a hypothetical breakdown. Starting this coming weekend. Assumes Pirates are in the race and playing reasonably well without collapse. Assumes all games are meaningful for all teams. Obviously a wild guess.

13 with Astros and Cubs - 9 wins 4 losses.

9 with Brewers. - 6 wins 3 losses.

4 with Mets - 3 wins 1 loss

6 with Reds - 3 wins 3 losses

3 with Braves - 1 win 2 losses

3 with Cards (at Pitt) 2 wins 1 loss.

That would be 24 and 14 for the Pirates for the rest of the season following today's game. Again, a wild guess.

I don't at all see that as being unrealistic. But it's worth noting even if the Pirates win today in addition to that 24-14 record, the Reds would need to only go 15-17 in their other 32 games excluding the six you mentioned against the Pirates to win the division outright.

I like those odds :)

Brutus
08-22-2012, 09:07 PM
Pirates lost their third straight tonight in San Diego.

Scrap Irony
08-22-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't at all see that as being unrealistic. But it's worth noting even if the Pirates win today in addition to that 24-14 record, the Reds would need to only go 15-17 in their other 32 games excluding the six you mentioned against the Pirates to win the division outright.

I like those odds :)

And that's the point many, I think, have tried to make.

Perhaps the Pirates do have an easy schedule, but they'd have to go completely hog wild to take the pennant from the Reds at this point.

Is it possible? Sure. I guess.

But it'd take both a Cincinnati collapse and a Pittsburgh team catching fire and playing like they've not played in (literally) 20 years.

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 10:10 PM
I have never felt that the Pirates would stay in the division race all season.

I'm not likely to start now.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 10:10 PM
And that's the point many, I think, have tried to make.

Perhaps the Pirates do have an easy schedule, but they'd have to go completely hog wild to take the pennant from the Reds at this point.

Is it possible? Sure. I guess.

But it'd take both a Cincinnati collapse and a Pittsburgh team catching fire and playing like they've not played in (literally) 20 years.

Just knocking down the straw man.

Nobody - nobody - has argued the Pirates are likely to pass the Reds due to their easy September schedule.

The issue was whether it was better to root for the Cards or Bucs when they played each other.

Cards have a brutal schedule, Pirates rather easy. So it made sense to me and perhaps others to root for the Bucs to lose to the Cards. Some disagreed.

That was the context.

Again, nobody is saying the Reds are likely to blow the lead in the Central to the Pirates or anyone else.

Vottomatic
08-23-2012, 07:16 AM
Pirates may go hog wild. But the Reds would totally have to collapse, and I don't see that happening with the way the pitching is going.

Arroyo with a huge, huge outing last night. This Reds team continues to surprise me. I'm just not used to so many things going right or when they don't go right, seeing them battle and overcome to get the win.

OldRightHander
08-23-2012, 07:56 AM
This Reds team no longer surprises me. I think I've gotten to the point where I just expect the win and I'm a little surprised when they lose.

Sea Ray
08-23-2012, 08:37 AM
Just knocking down the straw man.

Nobody - nobody - has argued the Pirates are likely to pass the Reds due to their easy September schedule.

The issue was whether it was better to root for the Cards or Bucs when they played each other.

Cards have a brutal schedule, Pirates rather easy. So it made sense to me and perhaps others to root for the Bucs to lose to the Cards. Some disagreed.

That was the context.

Again, nobody is saying the Reds are likely to blow the lead in the Central to the Pirates or anyone else.

Of course anything can happen but I have to think the fans in Pittsburgh are more focused right now on making the playoffs as a wildcard than catching the Reds. My guess is they check the WC standings before they check the NL Central

Hoosier Red
08-23-2012, 09:18 AM
This Reds team no longer surprises me. I think I've gotten to the point where I just expect the win and I'm a little surprised when they lose.

I agree. I've noticed that I'll feel a little bit nervous when the Reds trail in a game because I know its possible they might not catch up. But if the Reds are ahead, or even tied, I pretty much assume the Reds are going to win.

I'd be interested to know how many "come from ahead losses" the Reds have this year and in the past three months in particular.

Scrap Irony
08-23-2012, 09:33 AM
Just knocking down the straw man.

Nobody - nobody - has argued the Pirates are likely to pass the Reds due to their easy September schedule.

The issue was whether it was better to root for the Cards or Bucs when they played each other.

Cards have a brutal schedule, Pirates rather easy. So it made sense to me and perhaps others to root for the Bucs to lose to the Cards. Some disagreed.

That was the context.

Again, nobody is saying the Reds are likely to blow the lead in the Central to the Pirates or anyone else.

Didn't realize that was your point.

Who's better to root for? Meh. Neither. Both. It really doesn't matter all that much, IMO. I'd prefer taking on the Pirates, as I believe they're a weaker team by a fairly significant margin. The Cardinals have an ace (Wainwright) and a batting order (when healthy) that matches up with anyone. The Pirates have the best player and a better bullpen (though that's debateable at this point.) Neither, IMO, will get by either Atlanta or the NL West loser.

RedsMan3203
08-23-2012, 09:36 AM
Of course anything can happen but I have to think the fans in Pittsburgh are more focused right now on making the playoffs as a wildcard than catching the Reds. My guess is they check the WC standings before they check the NL Central

I'm sure they are more interested in Preseason Football at this point than where they are in the standings.... They gave it a run... But it took alot out of them to lose 2 out of 3 to the Reds and now being swept by the SD?

Yup, they've moved onto ... I hope Mike Wallace reports soon.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Didn't realize that was your point.

Who's better to root for? Meh. Neither. Both. It really doesn't matter all that much, IMO. I'd prefer taking on the Pirates, as I believe they're a weaker team by a fairly significant margin. The Cardinals have an ace (Wainwright) and a batting order (when healthy) that matches up with anyone. The Pirates have the best player and a better bullpen (though that's debateable at this point.) Neither, IMO, will get by either Atlanta or the NL West loser.

I would take the back end of the Cardinals bullpen without blinking an eye. I much prefer Mujica, Boggs and Motte to who the Pirates are running out there now. The Pirates' bullpen, IMHO, has actually become a concern for them since trading Lincoln. To your point, though, I have been pulling for the Pirates over the Cardinals because I think the Cards are a better team. I don't think the schedule offsets that much.

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 12:10 PM
I would take the back end of the Cardinals bullpen without blinking an eye. I much prefer Mujica, Boggs and Motte to who the Pirates are running out there now. The Pirates' bullpen, IMHO, has actually become a concern for them since trading Lincoln. To your point, though, I have been pulling for the Pirates over the Cardinals because I think the Cards are a better team. I don't think the schedule offsets that much.

I think you are more confident than most Cardinals fans about our bullpen, certainly more so than I am haha

Brutus
08-23-2012, 12:22 PM
I think you are more confident than most Cardinals fans about our bullpen, certainly more so than I am haha

I think the middle relief is a major problem, but I think the back end is better than Cards' fans give it credit for.

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 12:26 PM
I think the middle relief is a major problem, but I think the back end is better than Cards' fans give it credit for.

You're right about that. Boggs and Motte have been pretty much lock down. I like what Mujica has done thus far to fasten up the middle relief but I'm still somewhat of a skeptic. Adding Kelly to the pen though should further strengthen their middle relief.

Scrap Irony
08-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I would take the back end of the Cardinals bullpen without blinking an eye. I much prefer Mujica, Boggs and Motte to who the Pirates are running out there now. The Pirates' bullpen, IMHO, has actually become a concern for them since trading Lincoln. To your point, though, I have been pulling for the Pirates over the Cardinals because I think the Cards are a better team. I don't think the schedule offsets that much.

In a short series, I'd take Hanrahan over Motte. I might take Boggs over whomever the Pirates send out there, but it's close. Beyond that, it's not likely to matter much.

What scares me about St. Louis is all that veteran hitting. And Wainwright.

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 12:53 PM
In a short series, I'd take Hanrahan over Motte. I might take Boggs over whomever the Pirates send out there, but it's close. Beyond that, it's not likely to matter much.

What scares me about St. Louis is all that veteran hitting. And Wainwright.

The thing about it is that Berkman is scheduled to come back in about a week or two. He will be a huge bat off the bench down the stretch. I think Craig will still get the majority of playing time though.

CySeymour
08-23-2012, 01:00 PM
Some math to think about for the rest of the season. Just doing the quick math for what the Cards and Pirates to do to tie with the Reds at the end of the season:

Current Standings:

Team Games Remaining W L
Reds 125g 37g 76 49
Cards 123g 39g 67 56
Pirates 124g 38g 67 57

If Reds go 18-19 (.486):
Reds 162g 0g 94 68
Cards would have to go 27-12 (.692)
Pirates would have to go 27-11 (.711)


If Reds go 20-17 (.541):
Reds 162g 0g 96 66
Cards would have to go 29-10 (.744)
Pirates would have to go 29-9 (.763)


If Reds go 22-15 (.595):
Reds 162g 0g 98 64
Cards would have to go 33-6 (.846)
Pirates would have to go 33-5 (.868)

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 01:04 PM
Some math to think about for the rest of the season. Just doing the quick math for what the Cards and Pirates to do to tie with the Reds at the end of the season:

Current Standings:

Team Games Remaining W L
Reds 125g 37g 76 49
Cards 123g 39g 67 56
Pirates 124g 38g 67 57

If Reds go 18-19 (.486):
Reds 162g 0g 94 68
Cards would have to go 27-12 (.692)
Pirates would have to go 27-11 (.711)


If Reds go 20-17 (.541):
Reds 162g 0g 96 66
Cards would have to go 29-10 (.744)
Pirates would have to go 29-9 (.763)


If Reds go 22-15 (.595):
Reds 162g 0g 98 64
Cards would have to go 33-6 (.846)
Pirates would have to go 33-5 (.868)

Thank god for the second wild card, haha

bucksfan2
08-23-2012, 01:25 PM
The thing about it is that Berkman is scheduled to come back in about a week or two. He will be a huge bat off the bench down the stretch. I think Craig will still get the majority of playing time though.

Berkman has played in 28 games this season. If and when he comes back I think you will see more of a 2010 Berkman than the 2012 version.

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 01:30 PM
Berkman has played in 28 games this season. If and when he comes back I think you will see more of a 2010 Berkman than the 2012 version.

That's probably why Craig with his .941 OPS and 62 RBI's will take the majority of the time. Still, berkman will be a nice bat off the bench and if they get into the World Series again, an awesome DH.

PuffyPig
08-23-2012, 02:14 PM
That's probably why Craig with his .941 OPS and 62 RBI's will take the majority of the time. Still, berkman will be a nice bat off the bench and if they get into the World Series again, an awesome DH.

When Berkman came back earlier this year he looked like he should be in a wheel chair. He certainly hit like he was in one.

He wouldn't be my first choice to DH for the Cards right now. Carpenter would certainly be better (and I mean both Carpenters).

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 02:26 PM
When Berkman came back earlier this year he looked like he should be in a wheel chair. He certainly hit like he was in one.

He wouldn't be my first choice to DH for the Cards right now. Carpenter would certainly be better (and I mean both Carpenters).

Probably because he was rushed back. Also, it didn't help that when he first came back, he got hit directly in the same knee he injured by a fastball, lol.

defender
08-23-2012, 03:18 PM
Just knocking down the straw man.

Nobody - nobody - has argued the Pirates are likely to pass the Reds due to their easy September schedule.

The issue was whether it was better to root for the Cards or Bucs when they played each other.

Cards have a brutal schedule, Pirates rather easy. So it made sense to me and perhaps others to root for the Bucs to lose to the Cards. Some disagreed.

That was the context.

Again, nobody is saying the Reds are likely to blow the lead in the Central to the Pirates or anyone else.

No matter what the schedule, I feel STL is more likely to make up a an 8 game deficit in Sept. I think STL is more capable of going on a huge run.

Kc61
08-23-2012, 03:41 PM
No matter what the schedule, I feel STL is more likely to make up a an 8 game deficit in Sept. I think STL is more capable of going on a huge run.

Hopefully the next ten games will send the Cards back by double digits.

They play the Reds, Bucs, and Nats ten games on the road. Hopefully that will make their chances more unlikely.

PuffyPig
08-23-2012, 03:51 PM
Also, it didn't help that when he first came back, he got hit directly in the same knee he injured by a fastball, lol.


We finally agree on something. That was indeed a hoot!!!

I thought he got hit in the other knee. Not that it matters, his whole body is shot.

BTW, rushing him back to face the Reds might end up costing the Cards the division. He was putrid in that 3 game series. I thought it was a very selfish play on his part not to take much needed rehabilitation assignment to the minors. I'm guessing the post-game buffet down there isn't to his liking.

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 03:56 PM
If Berkman comes back and is strictly a part-time starter and bench bat, he'll help the Cards a great deal. If he comes back and takes any meaningful time away from Allen Craig, it only makes things worse IMO. But he was so valuable to that team last year, they're going to want to give him every chance to come back and prove he's still got something left. Tough line to walk for St. Louis.

Tom Servo
08-28-2012, 10:20 AM
They released Erik Bedard early this morning.

cumberlandreds
08-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Looks like the Pirates just need to worry about getting to .500 or better to finish the season. Finishing at .500 or better would be a great accomplishment for that franchise considering they haven't had a winning season in 20 years.

westofyou
08-28-2012, 10:38 AM
They released Erik Bedard early this morning.

Dang... we could have had him for Votto

OldXOhio
08-28-2012, 10:49 AM
Some math to think about for the rest of the season. Just doing the quick math for what the Cards and Pirates to do to tie with the Reds at the end of the season:

Current Standings:

Team Games Remaining W L
Reds 125g 37g 76 49
Cards 123g 39g 67 56
Pirates 124g 38g 67 57

If Reds go 18-19 (.486):
Reds 162g 0g 94 68
Cards would have to go 27-12 (.692)
Pirates would have to go 27-11 (.711)


If Reds go 20-17 (.541):
Reds 162g 0g 96 66
Cards would have to go 29-10 (.744)
Pirates would have to go 29-9 (.763)




Reds have 26 games (9 series including AZ) left before the road trips to PIT and STL to end the season. Going 14-12 in those games would require something of the following order:

Reds win 2/3: @HOU, HOU, PIT, @CHI, MIL
Reds win 1/3: PHI, @MIA, LAD
Reds split: @ARI

Not asking too much by any means. Any sweeps along the way would be gravy, as long as the series against MIA or LAD don't go awry.

traderumor
08-28-2012, 11:02 AM
Dang... we could have had him for VottoErik Bedard has been a byword anytime I start to see the next hot pitcher to trade the house for threads on here.

traderumor
08-28-2012, 11:04 AM
Hopefully the next ten games will send the Cards back by double digits.

They play the Reds, Bucs, and Nats ten games on the road. Hopefully that will make their chances more unlikely.And so far they are 3-1 :( I was just starting to get over my annoyance with the Cardinals, then they remind me again just how annoying they can be.

Vottomatic
08-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Reds hitters need to be patient next time they see Burnett. He throws "near strikes" and lead the league in walks one year. Get him behind in the count and make him come across the plate.

Patrick Bateman
08-28-2012, 05:18 PM
Dang... we could have had him for Votto

Acutally, needed to throw in Cueto AND others.

Kc61
08-31-2012, 11:52 AM
Pirates have a tough series at Milwaukee this weekend. Brewers are tough at home.

Here is the Pirates schedule after that:

Home v. Astros 3
Home v. Cubs 3
Road v. Reds 3
Road v. Cubs 4
Home v. Brewers 3
Road v. Astros 3
Road v. Mets 4
Home v. Reds 3
Home v. Braves 3

bucksfan2
08-31-2012, 12:01 PM
Pirates have a tough series at Milwaukee this weekend. Brewers are tough at home.

Here is the Pirates schedule after that:

Home v. Astros 3
Home v. Cubs 3
Road v. Reds 3
Road v. Cubs 4
Home v. Brewers 3
Road v. Astros 3
Road v. Mets 4
Home v. Reds 3
Home v. Braves 3

The Reds could end the Pirates when they play them next.

While the schedule looks like cake walk city they will be under some pressure. I wouldn't exactly overlook the Mets either, especially if they catch Dickey who will be going for a CY Young.

It could get very interesting in the WC battle when the Pirates play the Braves in the last week of the season.

Kc61
08-31-2012, 01:22 PM
The Reds could end the Pirates when they play them next.

While the schedule looks like cake walk city they will be under some pressure. I wouldn't exactly overlook the Mets either, especially if they catch Dickey who will be going for a CY Young.

It could get very interesting in the WC battle when the Pirates play the Braves in the last week of the season.

The Reds could end the Pirates divisional hopes which are already pretty slim.

But the Pirates are in good shape for a wild card run.

The Mets? 11-16 in August, -24 pythag, 4-9 at Citifield where they play the Pirates. And that's an improvement over July when the Mets were 7-18 with a -39 pythag.

The Pirates play 17 with the Mets, Cubs, and Astros who in August were 23 and 58 combined.

bucksfan2
08-31-2012, 02:38 PM
The Reds could end the Pirates divisional hopes which are already pretty slim.

But the Pirates are in good shape for a wild card run.

The Mets? 11-16 in August, -24 pythag, 4-9 at Citifield where they play the Pirates. And that's an improvement over July when the Mets were 7-18 with a -39 pythag.

The Pirates play 17 with the Mets, Cubs, and Astros who in August were 23 and 58 combined.

The Astros may go down as one of the worst teams in the history of baseball (watch them take the series from the Reds). I think they are an extreme outlier when it comes to season ending baseball. While the Pirates have an easy schedule they can lose games to the Reds, Mets, Cubs, Brewers and Braves. The problem the Pirates have is its almost become must win time. You play the Cubs and lose game one the pressure will be amped up for the rest of he series.

They have a fortunate schedule but I wouldn't be shocked if they lose a series to the Mets or Cubs.

Kc61
08-31-2012, 03:54 PM
The Astros may go down as one of the worst teams in the history of baseball (watch them take the series from the Reds). I think they are an extreme outlier when it comes to season ending baseball. While the Pirates have an easy schedule they can lose games to the Reds, Mets, Cubs, Brewers and Braves. The problem the Pirates have is its almost become must win time. You play the Cubs and lose game one the pressure will be amped up for the rest of he series.

They have a fortunate schedule but I wouldn't be shocked if they lose a series to the Mets or Cubs.

If you're arguing that the Pirates are unlikely to catch the Reds, nobody is saying anything different.

In terms of the wild card, the four teams involved in the NL all will have pressure every game. The Pirates have no more, no less.

Looking at the loss column, it's Braves 57, Pirates and Cards 60, Dodgers 62. All four teams have pressure every game.

Right now, I'd much rather be in the Pirates' position than the Cards', that's for sure.

mth123
09-20-2012, 02:00 AM
The Pirates dropped to .500 with tonight's loss and coupled with the Reds' win, are officially eliminated from the Division race. Looks like all of those who weren't sold were right.

Tom Servo
09-20-2012, 02:19 AM
I'm glad we're not the Pirates.

hebroncougar
09-20-2012, 08:29 AM
Couldn't happen to a better group of announcers. No raising the Jolly Roger anytime soon.

Vottomatic
09-20-2012, 09:16 AM
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I actually feel sorry for them.

I hate them when they're battling us for first place. But part of me roots for the little guy/small market teams. And I kind of liked seeing them finally do something positive for a change. Plus I've enjoyed seeing the Brewers way back in our rearview mirror.

RedsManRick
09-20-2012, 09:26 AM
Somewhere along the lines I said I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Brewers finish higher than the Pirates and possibly even the Cards. Turns out, I am surprised.

I do feel a bit bad for Pirates fans. It's happening again...

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 09:47 AM
This wasn't their year, they shouldn't feel bad. They are on track to contend again next year, this time with another offseason to prepare. Good showing, at least. That said, next year becomes very important for them, as the Astros are gone and the Cubs are trying to catch up, if they get lapped by the Cubs, well, good night. If I were a bucs fan, I'd be demanding a good FA bat, considering all the money coming from TV contracts, and all the money they never spend. I'd stay away from trades, and hope for a Willingham type pickup.

medford
09-20-2012, 09:47 AM
ehh... I don't really feel all that bad for Pirates fans. The typical Pirate fan is likely also a Penguin & Steeler fan, and its not like they haven't seen their share of success lately in either of those sports.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Heck, they're in better shape than I thought.

Wandy
Burnett
McDonald
Kartsens
Corriea/Cole/Taillon

Is a great outlook for 2013, assuming they don't add an even better arm somehow.

Their bullpen is solid with Hanrahan providing structure. I don't know why they traded Lincoln, but maybe we'll see.

Then for the position players they have a lot of things locked up:

c ????
1b Sanchez
2b Walker
ss ????
3b Alvarez
rf G. Jones
cf Cutch
lf Marte (top prospect)

With Snider and McHenry possible boom players (along with Sanchez).

In all the pitching could be scary good and if 1 or 2 more players are added to the lineup, this could be a great team. However 2013 is important, as Burnett is not signed in 2014.

WildcatFan
09-20-2012, 10:23 AM
You guys--I don't think I'm sold on the Pirates either!

traderumor
09-20-2012, 10:28 AM
Heck, they're in better shape than I thought.

Wandy
Burnett
McDonald
Kartsens
Corriea/Cole/Taillon

Is a great outlook for 2013, assuming they don't add an even better arm somehow.

Their bullpen is solid with Hanrahan providing structure. I don't know why they traded Lincoln, but maybe we'll see.

Then for the position players they have a lot of things locked up:

c ????
1b Sanchez
2b Walker
ss ????
3b Alvarez
rf G. Jones
cf Cutch
lf Marte (top prospect)

With Snider and McHenry possible boom players (along with Sanchez).

In all the pitching could be scary good and if 1 or 2 more players are added to the lineup, this could be a great team. However 2013 is important, as Burnett is not signed in 2014.So, a team that showed it was a pretender, standing pat, is in a good position? I think that they may have a few young arms that may bump stiffs like Corriea and Karstens, but I'm not sure that their current talent level gets them anywhere but where they are now, which is good enough to hang for awhile, but not able to sustain it for 162 (see Reds circa 2002)

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 10:46 AM
So, a team that showed it was a pretender, standing pat, is in a good position? I think that they may have a few young arms that may bump stiffs like Corriea and Karstens, but I'm not sure that their current talent level gets them anywhere but where they are now, which is good enough to hang for awhile, but not able to sustain it for 162 (see Reds circa 2002)

I didn't say current talent level, though, I said they're in a good position going forward and indicated some excellent young pitchers and position players that could help out a lot next year. Sure, lot's of "ifs", but they aren't in terrible shape.

Tom Servo
09-20-2012, 11:17 AM
I'm not terribly impressed by that rotation at all. Burnett could very well regress back to his normal, average self next year. McDonald was BRUTAL in the second half of the year. Wandy is what he is, a solid #3-4 type. Karstens is okay. Their success would hinge on those prospects should they stand put.

Vottomatic
09-20-2012, 11:32 AM
I read somewhere that the Pirates farm system is laden with talent in the upper echelons. Or did I read wrong?

crazybob60
09-20-2012, 12:27 PM
I read somewhere that the Pirates farm system is laden with talent in the upper echelons. Or did I read wrong?

Their SP's that they have drafted in the last few years (Cole, Taillon) is something that scares me even thinking about it when they get here in the next fews years. That is if they continue progressing like they should.

PuffyPig
09-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Heck, they're in better shape than I thought.

Wandy
Burnett
McDonald
Kartsens
Corriea/Cole/Taillon

Is a great outlook for 2013, assuming they don't add an even better arm somehow.



That's largely the same rotation that crapped the bed after the all star break.

Until guys like Cole and Taillon become bona fide big league starters, the Pirates aren't going aywhere.

westofyou
09-20-2012, 12:33 PM
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/09/20/baseball-analyst-jon-heyman-dishes-on-neal-huntingtons-job-security/



Jon Heyman joined The Fan Morning Show on Thursday to talk his recent column, which discusses the job security of a number of managers and general managers, including the Pirates’ Clint Hurdle and Neal Huntington.

He asserted that Hurdle’s job is safe, but explained that he has heard rumors that suggest Huntington could be in trouble.

He said that Huntington deserves credit for getting this team to the point where they’re actually contending for a .500 record, which many did not expect out of this squad. But he explained that failing to reach that mark could mean trouble for Huntington, given how a second straight season has unraveled after looking promising.

He felt the last couple weeks of the season will be crucial for Huntington, and could end up determining his fate.

Tom Servo
09-20-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't see how Huntington is anymore to blame than Hurdle. His moves may not have been perfect, but the results both on the field and in the farm system have been light years ahead of Bonifay and Littlefield.

That said, his trades when the team was in contention this year and last year were pretty uninspired, but a big part of that may be the lack of payroll available to make a splash.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 01:50 PM
I don't see how Huntington is anymore to blame than Hurdle. His moves may not have been perfect, but the results both on the field and in the farm system have been light years ahead of Bonifay and Littlefield.

That said, his trades when the team was in contention this year and last year were pretty uninspired, but a big part of that may be the lack of payroll available to make a splash.

Plus he doesn't want to trade prospects that may make a difference.

I'd think Huntington would get one more year to see how good these prospects he's hoarding are.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 01:54 PM
That's largely the same rotation that crapped the bed after the all star break.

Until guys like Cole and Taillon become bona fide big league starters, the Pirates aren't going aywhere.

Except Wandy's a difference maker there going forward. All I'm basically saying is they've got a better rotation than this year going into next year. Add to that a couple of top 50 prospects and an offseason to improve other areas, and the Pirates are looking great, or at least, have better resources than the 2002 Reds, as was suggested.

traderumor
09-20-2012, 01:55 PM
I didn't say current talent level, though, I said they're in a good position going forward and indicated some excellent young pitchers and position players that could help out a lot next year. Sure, lot's of "ifs", but they aren't in terrible shape.They really only have McCutchen. All the rest is why they are a .500 at best squad. I don't think they are going places with Alvarez, Tabata, Jones, maybe Marte as a core, but that is what they have. On the major league roster, they are about where the Reds were in maybe 2008-2009, more pitching and less position talent, but needing to have some major contributions from pitching prospects to take a big step forward. Continuing to nibble away at the fringe is a zero sum game, though, and that is what they seem to limit themselves to.

bucksfan2
09-20-2012, 01:56 PM
I don't see how Huntington is anymore to blame than Hurdle. His moves may not have been perfect, but the results both on the field and in the farm system have been light years ahead of Bonifay and Littlefield.

That said, his trades when the team was in contention this year and last year were pretty uninspired, but a big part of that may be the lack of payroll available to make a splash.

If you were to look at the Pirates season after the final game is played this year would anything shock you? Pretty much everything said on Opening Day this season about the Pirates has shown to be pretty accurate. As of today they are a 74-74 team, didn't many expect them to hover around the .500 mark this season? Didn't people expect AJ Burnett to have a bounce back year going from the AL East to the NL Central? Didn't we think that McCutchen is a heck of a player but the offense had some pretty big holes? A guy like McDonald having a great first half was a little unexpected, but he is going to end the season right around his career norms.

If I were a Pirates fan I would be pulling my hair out right now, but I would also respect the job Huntington has done. The last thing you want to do is arrive a year earlier than expected and empty the farm for that season. In order to compete the Pirates need to make the right trades and right moves. Similar to the Reds if they are going to trade for a TOR starter or a impact bat, it has to be someone they control for a number or years a la Latos. Trading a couple of stud prospects for Greinke would have sounded nice at the time but you can always get a league average Greinke (100 ERA+ since his trade to the Angles) only to see him walk after the season is over.

Tom Servo
09-20-2012, 01:59 PM
I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position. Yeah they don't have any other superstars past McCutchen, but Walker, Alvarez, and Jones are a solid core. And I do think Gaby Sanchez was a good pickup as well. But man, Barajas and Barmes just killed them.

traderumor
09-20-2012, 02:01 PM
I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position. Yeah they don't have any other superstars past McCutchen, but Walker, Alvarez, and Jones are a solid core. And I do think Gaby Sanchez was a good pickup as well. But man, Barajas and Barmes just killed them.With all due respect, if they are, then they would be better. That would be half of their lineup. I will add that I omitted Walker as a part of the core in my earlier comments, but I don't think including him makes a difference.

PuffyPig
09-20-2012, 02:04 PM
Except Wandy's a difference maker there going forward.

He's declining K-rate may suggest otherwise.

But in checking his stats, he's been more effective than I thought this year.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 02:04 PM
I wonder if they'd try to woo AJ Pyrzinski from Chicago? I doubt he'd go to Pit. There aren't any good SS's available, but they've got this Brock Holt guy who's 24 and hit .859 in AAA this year.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 02:14 PM
They really only have McCutchen. All the rest is why they are a .500 at best squad. I don't think they are going places with Alvarez, Tabata, Jones, maybe Marte as a core, but that is what they have. On the major league roster, they are about where the Reds were in maybe 2008-2009, more pitching and less position talent, but needing to have some major contributions from pitching prospects to take a big step forward. Continuing to nibble away at the fringe is a zero sum game, though, and that is what they seem to limit themselves to.

If you think they're at all similar to the 2009 Reds, why wouldn't you concede a 2010 Reds type season could happen if things break right? That's all I'm saying. I think we agree, as I began, if their pitching prospects work out they're going to be a-ok. And FWIW, I really don't get the impression they're nibbling on the fringe like they were at one time. They acquired Wandy, which is a relatively big move. They also picked up Burnett in a shrewd move. Now they're set for 2013 better than I can remember them being, rotation-wise, for years and years. I don't know they're money situation, but if they pickup one more vet like they have (the 2013 FA class is actually interesting for SP), they will really be setting themselves up well.

Their offense has been as much the problem down the stretch, and throughout the year, as anything. If any one of Snider, Sanchez, Marte, Alverez, or Tabata perform nearer to their projections, that could make for an interesting squad, assuming Cutch, Walker and Jones do what they've typically done. IMO, they need a guy to hit .300 to produce some runs.

traderumor
09-20-2012, 02:24 PM
If you think they're at all similar to the 2009 Reds, why wouldn't you concede a 2010 Reds type season could happen if things break right? That's all I'm saying. I think we agree, as I began, if their pitching prospects work out they're going to be a-ok. And FWIW, I really don't get the impression they're nibbling on the fringe like they were at one time. They acquired Wandy, which is a relatively big move. They also picked up Burnett in a shrewd move. Now they're set for 2013 better than I can remember them being, rotation-wise, for years and years. I don't know they're money situation, but if they pickup one more vet like they have (the 2013 FA class is actually interesting for SP), they will really be setting themselves up well.

Their offense has been as much the problem down the stretch, and throughout the year, as anything. If any one of Snider, Sanchez, Marte, Alverez, or Tabata perform nearer to their projections, that could make for an interesting squad, assuming Cutch, Walker and Jones do what they've typically done. IMO, they need a guy to hit .300 to produce some runs.Because the 2010 Reds were mostly in house at this time of the year in 2009. The Pirates still have significant upgrades to make and unpromoted prospects to take them to the next level. I believe they need to make a splash this offseason to make that happen.

Their rotation as you outlined it is likely to give the same results as this year, which again, has netted a "competitive" team, not a contender.

mdccclxix
09-20-2012, 02:32 PM
Because the 2010 Reds were mostly in house at this time of the year in 2009. The Pirates still have significant upgrades to make and unpromoted prospects to take them to the next level. I believe they need to make a splash this offseason to make that happen.

Their rotation as you outlined it is likely to give the same results as this year, which again, has netted a "competitive" team, not a contender.

I'd say the Reds were a rag tag bunch until Scotty Rolen showed up. :D That may be the difference between the two teams we're talking about. If the Pirates could find a leader behind the dish, that would be ideal. Someone to hit closer to .300.

camisadelgolf
09-20-2012, 10:59 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qsSvx.png

PuffyPig
09-20-2012, 11:07 PM
I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position.

The Reds ranked 9th in the NL this year with a .700 OPS from it's catchers. The Pirates ranked 10th at .699.

Tom Servo
09-20-2012, 11:15 PM
The Reds ranked 9th in the NL this year with a .700 OPS from it's catchers. The Pirates ranked 10th at .699.
This is true. But Barajas has gotten the lions share of the playing time and his .609 OPS is lower than even Devin Mesoraco's.

Chip R
09-20-2012, 11:41 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qsSvx.png

I take it that's that that flexible ticket pricing?

camisadelgolf
09-21-2012, 02:06 AM
I take it that's that that flexible ticket pricing?
No, if that were the case, I believe they'd be paying the fans to show up.

PuffyPig
09-21-2012, 11:33 AM
This is true. But Barajas has gotten the lions share of the playing time and his .609 OPS is lower than even Devin Mesoraco's.

But the .699 number is the average of all catchers who have played for the Pirates. Why would a smaller sample size number (base on one player's stats) be better at judging the Pirates offense from catcher rather than looking at all of the numbers? When Barajas hasn't been catching, the Pirates presumably have gotten excellent offense production from catching. Why ignore that?

Tom Servo
09-21-2012, 12:22 PM
But the .699 number is the average of all catchers who have played for the Pirates. Why would a smaller sample size number (base on one player's stats) be better at judging the Pirates offense from catcher rather than looking at all of the numbers? When Barajas hasn't been catching, the Pirates presumably have gotten excellent offense production from catching. Why ignore that?
Because I don't want to admit I was wrong. ;)

PuffyPig
09-21-2012, 02:07 PM
Because I don't want to admit I was wrong. ;)


That's the best reason, and always acceptable around here.

WVRedsFan
09-21-2012, 02:58 PM
I take it that's that that flexible ticket pricing?Went to Pittsburgh last year for a Reds game and paid $3 for a seat from a scalper and sat behind the Reds dugout--not my seat, but no one seemed to care.

Chip R
09-21-2012, 04:02 PM
Went to Pittsburgh last year for a Reds game and paid $3 for a seat from a scalper and sat behind the Reds dugout--not my seat, but no one seemed to care.

I heard a couple months ago that that weekend the Reds are in town, they are pretty much all sold out. It'll be interesting to see how many people will actually show up. The Steelers are off that Sunday so they may have more people there than they actually would if they were playing. I bet on that Friday, you could probably shoot a cannon off there and not hit anyone.

I looked at camisa's post again and saw it was Stub Hub and not the Pirates web site selling tickets that cheap.

westofyou
09-21-2012, 05:04 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18380



Front-office views

Pirates: "If they would have gotten some help at the trade deadline—and I'm not talking Gaby Sanchez and Travis Snider, but a legitimate big-league hitter—they would be going to the playoffs. How do you not win for 20 years then balk at the chance to win?"

oneupper
09-21-2012, 11:36 PM
Pirates just fell under .500

Tom Servo
09-21-2012, 11:48 PM
Pirates just fell under .500

Pittsburgh Pirates Laughing Logo (&#39;68 - &#39;86 logo) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcDmMOK_Ht0)

Brutus
09-22-2012, 12:06 AM
Pirates just fell under .500

That actually happened two days ago. They are now 2 games under.

traderumor
09-22-2012, 10:22 AM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18380Front-office views

Pirates: "If they would have gotten some help at the trade deadline—and I'm not talking Gaby Sanchez and Travis Snider, but a legitimate big-league hitter—they would be going to the playoffs. How do you not win for 20 years then balk at the chance to win?"It's Groundhog Day in Pittsburgh. This could have been last year's post as well, inserting Derrek Lee and Ryan Ludwick over Sanchez and Snider. Maybe they should try this and just make a template:

Pirates: "If they would have gotten some help at the trade deadline—and I'm not talking _____________ and ____________, but a legitimate big-league hitter—they would be going to the playoffs. How do you not win for 20 years then balk at the chance to win?"

There, now the writer is ready for next season :D

westofyou
09-22-2012, 11:21 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pirates---hells-angels-----navy-seals--minor-league-training-methods-become-mlb-joke--.html

It's not just the Pirates' second consecutive collapse that has made them an industry joke. The methods by which they rear their minor leaguers are perhaps even worse, a combination of hubris and recklessness that has led to injuries and widespread resentment, according to four sources who outlined the problems to Yahoo! Sports.

M2
09-22-2012, 12:04 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pirates---hells-angels-----navy-seals--minor-league-training-methods-become-mlb-joke--.html

It's not just the Pirates' second consecutive collapse that has made them an industry joke. The methods by which they rear their minor leaguers are perhaps even worse, a combination of hubris and recklessness that has led to injuries and widespread resentment, according to four sources who outlined the problems to Yahoo! Sports.

What's goofy about the strongman drills is it ignores true cutting edge strength, conditioning and flexibility training. Honestly, it sounds like a way to give baseball players bad backs.

edabbs44
09-22-2012, 01:08 PM
It's Groundhog Day in Pittsburgh. This could have been last year's post as well, inserting Derrek Lee and Ryan Ludwick over Sanchez and Snider. Maybe they should try this and just make a template:

Pirates: "If they would have gotten some help at the trade deadline—and I'm not talking _____________ and ____________, but a legitimate big-league hitter—they would be going to the playoffs. How do you not win for 20 years then balk at the chance to win?"

There, now the writer is ready for next season :D

Some said the same things about the Reds in 2010-11. I am very happy that Walt played it the way he did, this team likely doesn't have the same outlook if they played for 2010 because of the past however many years.

I don't care as much about the past 10 years as I do about the next 10.

traderumor
09-22-2012, 08:33 PM
Some said the same things about the Reds in 2010-11. I am very happy that Walt played it the way he did, this team likely doesn't have the same outlook if they played for 2010 because of the past however many years.

I don't care as much about the past 10 years as I do about the next 10.Except the Reds had enough in 2010 to get it done and saw that it wasn't enough in 2011 and made major moves like trading for Latos, signing Madson, trading for Marshall. The Pirates have made insignificant, laughable moves two years running and ran out of gas. I'm not sure that is a very good comparison, esp. when the Reds are at 92 wins and counting after winning the division with 91 in 2010. The Pirates now seem like they are going to throw all their eggs in the "top prospect" basket and hope for the best. Best wishes, and its a bit ironic, because it is actually riskier to get the prospect stars aligned than it is to use them for trade currency and proven talent.

BTW, the fans and corporate sponsors you want to show up and pour money into your coffers to bankroll that future care about the last 20 losing seasons.

PuffyPig
09-23-2012, 12:19 AM
The Pirates have made insignificant, laughable moves two years running .......

I agree, although if you read through this thread there were many lauding the Pirates for the stunning moves they made last year and the expected stunning moves they were rumoured to be persuing this year.

The Operator
09-23-2012, 03:43 AM
I agree, although if you read through this thread there were many lauding the Pirates for the stunning moves they made last year and the expected stunning moves they were rumoured to be persuing this year.
There were even people on here ready to concede the division and giving The Pirates all kinds of praise just for being "linked to trades" as the deadline was nearing.

traderumor
09-27-2012, 10:41 PM
The Pirates lost game #80 today. They have to win out for a winning season, 2 losses mean a losing season. They close out with two playoff bound teams that have already clinched. The Reds can send them to their annual losing season with 2 of 3. Considering the barbing from Slurgate, let's hope the idiots don't hurt anyone of our guys playing beanball.

WVRedsFan
09-28-2012, 12:43 AM
But watch them. They pitch AJ tomorrow (actually today) and they will most likely beat us--not that it matters now. In fact, they might take two or three, but then again, I also think that they are in such a funk that we might sweep. Regardless, it really makes no difference. Let them win if they must, but it's a great luxury to know that we're in and they are not. "Cutch," who got so mad when he was hit in our game is now in free-fall, dropping ten points in average lately. The rest of the pitching has been in the dumpster, and the Jolly Roger has not been raised but two times in the last ten. Heh. The Stillers (sic) are all that matters and they are losing too. Breaks my heart.

The Operator
09-28-2012, 01:32 AM
"Cutch," who got so mad when he was hit in our game is now in free-fall, dropping ten points in average lately. It was only a matter of time. He's a great guy to have patrolling CF, but nobody who has a career high BA of .286 suddenly turns into a .370 hitter - not without the help of some fine pharmaceuticals at least.

His career high in OPS before this season was .836 as well - no reason for me to believe he's suddenly a guy who can push 1.000 in that category.

vaticanplum
10-01-2012, 04:54 PM
Oh yeah, it's all fun and games until the local paper starts putting out commemorative sections in honor of your loserdom.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8178/8044837769_16e164e036_z.jpg

westofyou
10-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Fun year for the Pirates. They have everything they need to make a run at the NL Central and easily will finish 5 ahead of the Reds no matter how things shake out. They're better constructed.

http://history.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/upfiles/2009-03/31/details695681d0c84fa65b9488.jpg

kaldaniels
10-01-2012, 06:02 PM
http://history.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/upfiles/2009-03/31/details695681d0c84fa65b9488.jpg

Managing to be 25 games (they are 19 back) off of where a team will end up in the standings on a July 19 prediction is no easy feat.

Tom Servo
10-01-2012, 06:05 PM
The men who were supposed to led the Pirates thru the 2000s and beyond

http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2011/01/10/730_20110110231343725_660_320.JPG
http://mlblogspittpeas.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/kip20wells1.jpg?w=350&h=331
http://www.mainlineautographs.com/images/product_pics/FOGG0001_20100820318.gif
http://www.centerfieldgate.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Sean-Burnett.jpg
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/images/2010/02/24/JLhVEbdr.jpg
http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2008/07/large_BULLINGTON.jpg
http://marinerds.com/pictures/062107/050-VanBenschoten.JPG
http://c10674700.r0.cf2.rackcdn.com/03-16-47_ian-snell-on-the-mound_original.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0802/mlb.strange.injuries/images/perez.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yKSo5xPjLpM/TOggSN0LzMI/AAAAAAAAPzU/vzn1dleHp7E/s1600/20050802wap_bucs_zachdukePJ_450-thumb-450x597-1320631.jpg
http://c10566323.r23.cf2.rackcdn.com/03-28-41_paul-maholm_original.jpg
http://www.mycubstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/chicago-cubs-tom-gorzelanny-1.jpg
http://www.piratesgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Brad.jpg
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Pittsburgh+Pirates+v+Arizona+Diamondbacks+bAnrCVXg AWal.jpg
http://c9900913.r13.cf2.rackcdn.com/03-15-00_daniel-mccutchen_original.jpg
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Charlie+Morton+Pittsburgh+Pirates+v+Houston+zo7g1S HCfN5l.jpg


As much as we talk about our lost decade of futile pitching, at least we lucked in the occasional Aaron Harang or a draft pick like Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto, and our would be prospects wouldn't just go on to be useful rotation/bullpen pieces for other teams :eek:

Caveat Emperor
10-01-2012, 06:11 PM
As I said back in June -- losing is in the DNA of this organization.

Revering4Blue
10-01-2012, 06:13 PM
Will either Huntington or Hurdle (or both) be forced to walk the plank after this season concludes?

westofyou
10-01-2012, 06:15 PM
As I said back in June -- losing is in the DNA of this organization.

Yet they have as many WC as the Reds, go figure

dman
10-01-2012, 06:26 PM
Yet they have as many WC as the Reds, go figure

As aggravating as stuff like that is, that's also a big part of the allure of baseball.

vaticanplum
10-01-2012, 07:20 PM
Will either Huntington or Hurdle (or both) be forced to walk the plank after this season concludes?

Huntington is getting some lip service in terms of firing talk here. Hurdle gets almost none. The feeling seems to be, well the end result may be the same, but at least he makes it exciting for a while.

This above all else is what concerns me about the mentality of the Pirates' organization and, perhaps more so, its fanbase. I've listened to callers on sports talk radio (a low bar, admittedly) say that they are disappointed with the season, but they are ok with Hurdle because "he fills the ballpark". That is veering verrrry close to Cubs mentality to me, and there's not an organization that I detest more, because of the lack of respect it shows its fanbase. Which is then, ironically, adopted by the fanbase. Hey, we go to the ballpark to have a good time. Who cares if we win or not? I guess that's an ok choice for a fan to make. I do not think it's an ok choice for an organization to make, not when it's making millions of dollars off the backs of ignorant fans and frustrated players.

Clint Hurdle is a bad manager. I see enough Pirates baseball that I can tell you there are a million quantifiable reasons for this. He runs this team like a small-ball, base-stealing team, and the Pirates are factually BAD at stealing bases. He plays with his lineups to a degree that would make Dusty Baker blush. He keeps Barajas behind the plate like he's cemented there as a statue when McKenry is clearly the better option. He has talented hitters who seem to have missed the part of baseball practice where you learn to at least try to identify pitches. He is not bad at managing pitchers, but he is horrible at managing offense. He has managed MLB teams for 10 seasons and I think he has nine losing seasons to his credit.

But you can't talk to a Pirates fan about any of this, because all they cling to is the fact that for a couple of months, they were winning. The fans don't care that they were winning unsustainably, or why they stopped winning. They just cling to it like some beacon of hope, and Hurdle is responsible, so Hurdle should stay.

It's so, so dangerous. I balked at CE's saying earlier in the season that the Pirates have losing in their DNA, because there is no reason that any team, drafted well and managed well, shouldn't win. the problem is that that's a logical viewpoint. I am starting to see what CE is saying. When questioned about the fans' despair over the team's collapse a couple of weeks ago, Neil huntington responded, "There are a lot of people in the industry who feel very differently than our fans about what we're accomplishing." Oh. Ok. who are these people? Who cares? What difference does that make when you have two decades of losing seasons? I can't express how sad hearing something like that makes me. The arrogance of implying that the 20 losing seasons that the fans are seeing are not everything, and it's their fault they're not appreciating what they have. It gives me flashbacks to the Dan O'Brien era. That is extremely painful and traumatic for me.

And the fans just take it, because after 20 years, they're starting to forget that they have any other option. I actually don't even think it's just the losing seasons have done it. I think it goes back to Bonds, maybe (although this might be a stretch) to Clemente's death. It's coupled with the fact that they have two other powerhouse professional sports teams, so their real energy and analysis goes there and the Pirates are now just a ragtag fun bunch of losers to watch on the weekdays after the Stanley cup is over. Most of the time, I absolutely hate these fans, and I did not when I moved here. I always thought, there's no reason to hate the Pirates, they're harmless, their fans are starved and fun. But I have learned that none of them want to talk about baseball; very few of them can talk about baseball. I don't know that they want to take the effort to understand what this team, with its talented base, needs to be better.

I sort of feel sorry for them, because it's like they've been beaten into submission. But I will say this for the Reds fanbase: as negative as it is, it wearies of crap. Yeah, attendance went down in the O'Brien era, and rightfully so. Otherwise the team won't get the message. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just too competitive and territorial to be objective living in a rival city. There is some truth to that. But I'm a Yankees fans and even Red Sox fans have grown on me tremendously. One thing I can't tolerate is acceptance of mediocrity, from an organization or its fans. It is the worst kind of fanbase there is, and it almost always springs from ignorance. It's Cubbie fandom at its worst. I hope Pittsburgh doesn't get there, but it doesn't look good.

Matt700wlw
10-01-2012, 09:06 PM
Huntington is getting some lip service in terms of firing talk here. Hurdle gets almost none. The feeling seems to be, well the end result may be the same, but at least he makes it exciting for a while.

This above all else is what concerns me about the mentality of the Pirates' organization and, perhaps more so, its fanbase. I've listened to callers on sports talk radio (a low bar, admittedly) say that they are disappointed with the season, but they are ok with Hurdle because "he fills the ballpark". That is veering verrrry close to Cubs mentality to me, and there's not an organization that I detest more, because of the lack of respect it shows its fanbase. Which is then, ironically, adopted by the fanbase. Hey, we go to the ballpark to have a good time. Who cares if we win or not? I guess that's an ok choice for a fan to make. I do not think it's an ok choice for an organization to make, not when it's making millions of dollars off the backs of ignorant fans and frustrated players.

Clint Hurdle is a bad manager. I see enough Pirates baseball that I can tell you there are a million quantifiable reasons for this. He runs this team like a small-ball, base-stealing team, and the Pirates are factually BAD at stealing bases. He plays with his lineups to a degree that would make Dusty Baker blush. He keeps Barajas behind the plate like he's cemented there as a statue when McKenry is clearly the better option. He has talented hitters who seem to have missed the part of baseball practice where you learn to at least try to identify pitches. He is not bad at managing pitchers, but he is horrible at managing offense. He has managed MLB teams for 10 seasons and I think he has nine losing seasons to his credit.

But you can't talk to a Pirates fan about any of this, because all they cling to is the fact that for a couple of months, they were winning. The fans don't care that they were winning unsustainably, or why they stopped winning. They just cling to it like some beacon of hope, and Hurdle is responsible, so Hurdle should stay.

It's so, so dangerous. I balked at CE's saying earlier in the season that the Pirates have losing in their DNA, because there is no reason that any team, drafted well and managed well, shouldn't win. the problem is that that's a logical viewpoint. I am starting to see what CE is saying. When questioned about the fans' despair over the team's collapse a couple of weeks ago, Neil huntington responded, "There are a lot of people in the industry who feel very differently than our fans about what we're accomplishing." Oh. Ok. who are these people? Who cares? What difference does that make when you have two decades of losing seasons? I can't express how sad hearing something like that makes me. The arrogance of implying that the 20 losing seasons that the fans are seeing are not everything, and it's their fault they're not appreciating what they have. It gives me flashbacks to the Dan O'Brien era. That is extremely painful and traumatic for me.

And the fans just take it, because after 20 years, they're starting to forget that they have any other option. I actually don't even think it's just the losing seasons have done it. I think it goes back to Bonds, maybe (although this might be a stretch) to Clemente's death. It's coupled with the fact that they have two other powerhouse professional sports teams, so their real energy and analysis goes there and the Pirates are now just a ragtag fun bunch of losers to watch on the weekdays after the Stanley cup is over. Most of the time, I absolutely hate these fans, and I did not when I moved here. I always thought, there's no reason to hate the Pirates, they're harmless, their fans are starved and fun. But I have learned that none of them want to talk about baseball; very few of them can talk about baseball. I don't know that they want to take the effort to understand what this team, with its talented base, needs to be better.

I sort of feel sorry for them, because it's like they've been beaten into submission. But I will say this for the Reds fanbase: as negative as it is, it wearies of crap. Yeah, attendance went down in the O'Brien era, and rightfully so. Otherwise the team won't get the message. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just too competitive and territorial to be objective living in a rival city. There is some truth to that. But I'm a Yankees fans and even Red Sox fans have grown on me tremendously. One thing I can't tolerate is acceptance of mediocrity, from an organization or its fans. It is the worst kind of fanbase there is, and it almost always springs from ignorance. It's Cubbie fandom at its worst. I hope Pittsburgh doesn't get there, but it doesn't look good.

Pittsburgh has the Steelers. That's all they need, and as much I despise the Steelers....I can't blame them.

WVRedsFan
10-02-2012, 12:55 AM
Pittsburgh has the Steelers. That's all they need, and as much I despise the Steelers....I can't blame them.

Very true. My in-laws live for the Steelers. The Bucs were a summer delight for awhile, only to relieve there insecurity complex, which is real. Their concept of self is based on their sports teams. Pirates not doing well, you move to the Steelers. Penguins not doing well, you move to the Steelers. Pitt not doing well, you move to the Steelers. If the Steelers are not doing well, we'll, the world ends. It's all the Steelers. All is not well in Pittsburgh, because the Steelers are not doing well. Sad.

Caveat Emperor
10-02-2012, 12:57 AM
Yet they have as many WC as the Reds, go figure

The Reds would still be right there with them if they hadn't, once again, augmented their own DNA with some winning genetic material from St. Louis in the form of Walt Jocketty.

cumberlandreds
10-02-2012, 07:38 AM
The Reds would still be right there with them if they hadn't, once again, augmented their own DNA with some winning genetic material from St. Louis in the form of Walt Jocketty.

And Bob Castellini. He's the one that makes it all happen.

Chip R
10-02-2012, 09:12 AM
It's coupled with the fact that they have two other powerhouse professional sports teams, so their real energy and analysis goes there and the Pirates are now just a ragtag fun bunch of losers to watch on the weekdays after the Stanley cup is over.

I think having two elite teams in your own city takes some of the pressure off of the other team(s). I'm sure Pirates management wants to win like every other organization but I think they don't really feel compelled to because the fans will sit there and take it because they have the Steelers and the Penguins. In Cincinnati, the Bengals were so bad the last 20 or so years that perhaps the Reds felt more pressure to put out a winner than the Pirates did/do. Plus Cincinnati is more of a baseball town than Pittsburgh.

traderumor
10-02-2012, 02:17 PM
I think having two elite teams in your own city takes some of the pressure off of the other team(s). I'm sure Pirates management wants to win like every other organization but I think they don't really feel compelled to because the fans will sit there and take it because they have the Steelers and the Penguins. In Cincinnati, the Bengals were so bad the last 20 or so years that perhaps the Reds felt more pressure to put out a winner than the Pirates did/do. Plus Cincinnati is more of a baseball town than Pittsburgh.Yea, we at least fill the house for playoff series. Pittsburgh hasn't always been able to say even that.

However, I think this is all about competence moreso than lacking a sense of urgency. These are men running these organizations, so I know their competitive nature won't allow them to be comfortable losing.

Chip R
10-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Yea, we at least fill the house for playoff series. Pittsburgh hasn't always been able to say even that.

Well, I remember the Reds not selling out their home playoff games in the mid-90s. We'll see what happens next week if the games are played in early-mid-late afternoon or Friday night.


However, I think this is all about competence moreso than lacking a sense of urgency. These are men running these organizations, so I know their competitive nature won't allow them to be comfortable losing.

I don't think "comfortable" is the right word. As I said, I don't think they feel compelled to win. Of course they want to win. Everybody does. And, yes, competence may have something to do with it. But they may not feel the compulsion to win because the fans have other sports to fill their desire to win. If the Bengals had been on a par with the Steelers for the last generation, would the Reds have felt the need to put a superior product on the field? It's just a theory. Huntington, et. al. may have a burning desire to win but perhaps he and his staff aren't good enough.

traderumor
10-02-2012, 03:43 PM
Well, I remember the Reds not selling out their home playoff games in the mid-90s. We'll see what happens next week if the games are played in early-mid-late afternoon or Friday night.



I don't think "comfortable" is the right word. As I said, I don't think they feel compelled to win. Of course they want to win. Everybody does. And, yes, competence may have something to do with it. But they may not feel the compulsion to win because the fans have other sports to fill their desire to win. If the Bengals had been on a par with the Steelers for the last generation, would the Reds have felt the need to put a superior product on the field? It's just a theory. Huntington, et. al. may have a burning desire to win but perhaps he and his staff aren't good enough.

1995 Game 3 NLDS attendance 53,276, which would have been SRO at Riverfront, which I recall capacity was in the 52,000 range for baseball. In the NLCS, you are correct, attendance was in the 40s for both home games.

I'd venture to say that the lower capacity makes game time moot in the current environment. 1995 was post strike and Cincy had some fan backlash that is long gone by now.

As for the Pirates, I think it all is the competence issue. That is the motivator for anyone in this business. While the fans may not be as vocal with displeasure because of the competition, no one owns a baseball franchise for ROI--its rich man monopoly and they are all out to win. Just some don't have a clue and can't seem to hire anyone who does, either.

And I won't be surprised to see Huntington get the axe with the last two collapses and the bad press with the Special Ops training exercises. His job is very tenuous, as it should be.

WVRed
10-02-2012, 07:43 PM
Pittsburgh has the Steelers. That's all they need, and as much I despise the Steelers....I can't blame them.

Pittsburgh fans will support a winner. PNC Park was sold out when they were winning and even the Penguins, who were on the verge of moving before they got their new arena, have attracted crowds.

I've been to Pittsburgh three times to watch the Reds, the most recently being this past weekend. The older Pirates fans I have found are more knowledgeable about baseball and courteous to those out of town. One example was this weekend my wife and I went to IHOP before the game in the Robinson Town Center area and while my wife went to the restroom, a gentleman stopped me and said "Good luck in the playoffs, my buddy was at the game on Friday night and said watching the no-hitter was something else".

Only thing I can figure is the decades of futility have mellowed out the fans. If only two decades of losing would happen with the Steelers, the world would be a more peaceful place. :)

vaticanplum
10-02-2012, 09:00 PM
Only thing I can figure is the decades of futility have mellowed out the fans. If only two decades of losing would happen with the Steelers, the world would be a more peaceful place. :)

I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.

WebScorpion
10-02-2012, 11:46 PM
I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.Er, is fluffy good? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool08.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

WVRedsFan
10-03-2012, 12:06 AM
I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.

It will happen. And when it does, I will have a field day with my obnoxious brothers-in-law. It's sad, but I've put up with so much stuff that I root against the Steelers every game. Once the Pirates crapped out, it was all Steelers all the time. And then they lost two of three and it was the replacement refs and it couldn't have been Saint Ben. Earlier it was Saint Cutch, but he's long forgotten.

Sorry for the rant. I really feel for you up there. And the sad part is I like Pittsburgh as a rule, but their fans give me heartburn.

Tom Servo
06-23-2013, 01:28 AM
Alright, I'm officially bringing this thread back for 2013. The addition of Marte as well the addition of Martin/subtraction of Barajas has improved my opinion of their offense, but much like the first half of last year I think their pitching is performing way over their heads and they are due a correction in the second half.

I'm not saying the Pirates will definitely collapse yet again, but I'm still not sure why people are giving them the benefit of the doubt.

757690
06-23-2013, 01:43 AM
Locke and Gomez won't be this good all year, but they don't have to be. Cole should fill in for one of them, and might end up being the best pitcher on the staff.

The pen is for real, and a pen as good as the Pirates, can take a team pretty far.

One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the Pirates to win the division this year.

Tom Servo
06-23-2013, 02:17 AM
Locke and Gomez won't be this good all year, but they don't have to be. Cole should fill in for one of them, and might end up being the best pitcher on the staff.

The pen is for real, and a pen as good as the Pirates, can take a team pretty far.

One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the Pirates to win the division this year.
It's been 3 starts for Cole, awfully early to be crowning him best pitcher of anything.

The bullpen may be 'for real', but Jason Grilli isn't going to continue to convert every single save and they are racking up a lot of innings over the first few months.

Alvarez is pretty much exactly what he always is, and Tabata has all of 90 plate appearances this year.

RedEye
06-23-2013, 08:16 AM
One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.


Hasn't Tabata mostly been replaced by Marte this year? Alvarez looks like pretty much the same old Alvarez we've come to know and love. He's kind of like an Adam Dunn who doesn't walk and can play (a little) D at 3B. Okay, he's nothing like Adam Dunn, but you get the idea.

IABucFan
06-23-2013, 08:20 AM
Hasn't Tabata mostly been replaced by Marte this year?

Yes and no. Tabata was playing some right field before getting hurt. RF has been the Pirates biggest weakness to date. Travis Snider has not been close to what they were hoping for. A platoon in right with Tabata and Snider is what they were looking to do at the start of the year.

TOBTTReds
06-23-2013, 10:40 AM
It's been 3 starts for Cole, awfully early to be crowning him best pitcher of anything.


It's not like he came out of nowhere, he's been said to have some of the top stuff in all of baseball and was a #1 overall pick. But in your defense, he didn't pitch all this well in the minors all year, so maybe he just has that new guy success right now. I think his control will come back to haunt him soon. If not, we are in trouble. He also only has 8 k's in in his first 18 ip. So maybe some luck is involved, but he's throwing the ball well right now.

As a side note, when Jameson Taillon comes up next year, their rotation is going to be filthy, if it isn't already.

IABucFan
06-23-2013, 11:22 AM
It's not like he came out of nowhere, he's been said to have some of the top stuff in all of baseball and was a #1 overall pick. But in your defense, he didn't pitch all this well in the minors all year, so maybe he just has that new guy success right now. I think his control will come back to haunt him soon. If not, we are in trouble. He also only has 8 k's in in his first 18 ip. So maybe some luck is involved, but he's throwing the ball well right now.

As a side note, when Jameson Taillon comes up next year, their rotation is going to be filthy, if it isn't already.

Keep an eye on Nick Kingham and Luis Heredia as well.

_Sir_Charles_
06-23-2013, 12:09 PM
Alright, I'm officially bringing this thread back for 2013. The addition of Marte as well the addition of Martin/subtraction of Barajas has improved my opinion of their offense, but much like the first half of last year I think their pitching is performing way over their heads and they are due a correction in the second half.

I'm not saying the Pirates will definitely collapse yet again, but I'm still not sure why people are giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The offense is under performing IMO. They've got some potent bats that aren't really clicking right now. I agree that the pitching is over performing. One thing to remember about the pitching though...yes, the kids have stepped up and thrown well...but they'll also be getting back their top 2 arms shortly (Wandy & AJ). Wandy looks to be ready within the week. James McDonald is coming back too. And AJ Burnett comes off the DL in about 2 weeks. So any slipping of the pitching staff with the kids...might just correct itself with the return of the regulars.

redsfan1995
06-23-2013, 12:22 PM
The offense is under performing IMO. They've got some potent bats that aren't really clicking right now. I agree that the pitching is over performing. One thing to remember about the pitching though...yes, the kids have stepped up and thrown well...but they'll also be getting back their top 2 arms shortly (Wandy & AJ). Wandy looks to be ready within the week. James McDonald is coming back too. And AJ Burnett comes off the DL in about 2 weeks. So any slipping of the pitching staff with the kids...might just correct itself with the return of the regulars.

James Mcdonald will not have spot in the rotation hes been awful and the pirates will try to trade him.

_Sir_Charles_
06-23-2013, 12:27 PM
James Mcdonald will not have spot in the rotation hes been awful and the pirates will try to trade him.

That might be correct. But I don't think anybody questions that the kids' got stuff. I don't know how he got hurt or if he was even dealing with something the first half of the year...but when he's on, he's VERY good. So I'm not selling him short quite yet.

His first half last year was EXTREMELY good. 10-3 with an era of around 2 1/2 through mid july. He's got the goods, just a matter of putting it together.

redsfan1995
06-23-2013, 12:39 PM
That might be correct. But I don't think anybody questions that the kids' got stuff. I don't know how he got hurt or if he was even dealing with something the first half of the year...but when he's on, he's VERY good. So I'm not selling him short quite yet.

His first half last year was EXTREMELY good. 10-3 with an era of around 2 1/2 through mid july. He's got the goods, just a matter of putting it together.

Yes hes has great stuff and only had a couple of good starts this year. The one thing he lacks is confidence and you can tell on the mound. But he has to good of stuff for no one to want him so someone will take a flyer on him.

IABucFan
06-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Yes hes has great stuff and only had a couple of good starts this year. The one thing he lacks is confidence and you can tell on the mound. But he has to good of stuff for no one to want him so someone will take a flyer on him.

This. Exactly. I think he's fine physically. It's between the ears where he's got issues. Personally, I don't think the Pirates try to trade him. In fact, I was just discussing this with some other Pirates fans, and we think they would be best served by trying to hide him in the bullpen, and optioning someone like Duke Welker or Ryan Reid, neither of whom have pitched in a week.

You might also see Cole get optioned for a couple of weeks to avoid Super-2 status.

TOBTTReds
06-23-2013, 12:56 PM
Keep an eye on Nick Kingham and Luis Heredia as well.

I'll worry about Heredia once he makes it to full season ball. He's still a pup.

Kingham I like. He's extremely underrated. I saw him pitch a lot the year he was drafted. He has a body of a big leaguer.

IABucFan
06-23-2013, 02:21 PM
Heredia makes his debut for Low A West Virginia today.

Kingham was part of the same draft class as Taillon and Allie and I think he always gets overlooked a little because of that. But, he was recently promoted to AA. Word is he's touching 97 with a very good looking curve.

Also, another name to watch out for is Tyler Glasnow. He was drafted the same year as Cole and Josh Bell, so he also gets overlooked a lot because of that. But, he's having a big year and has shot up prospect charts. When they drafted him, he was barely hitting in the low 90s, but he's grown and filled out some and how is up in the high 90s, and reportedly hit 99 in his last start. He's having a big year for WVa as well.

I realize this is a Reds site, but I come here because I like reading about other teams, specifically other teams in the NL Central. So, if there are any Reds fans that are interested, Tim Williams runs a website called Pirates Prospects and it is absolutely top notch. Tim is Pirates' fans resident expert on all things having to do with the Pirates' farm system. He recently posted this article on some of their pitching prospects. http://www.piratesprospects.com/2013/06/first-pitch-12-pirates-pitchers-who-throw-98-mph.html

Tony Cloninger
06-23-2013, 02:36 PM
It's not like he came out of nowhere, he's been said to have some of the top stuff in all of baseball and was a #1 overall pick. But in your defense, he didn't pitch all this well in the minors all year, so maybe he just has that new guy success right now. I think his control will come back to haunt him soon. If not, we are in trouble. He also only has 8 k's in in his first 18 ip. So maybe some luck is involved, but he's throwing the ball well right now.

As a side note, when Jameson Taillon comes up next year, their rotation is going to be filthy, if it isn't already.

Once people get the book on him and see him....he will be just like other pitchers who come on quick and then start getting hit. 8 K's in 18 innings...when people are Striking Out all over the place? I saw the guy pitch against the Angels.. they were swinging and not working him at all, almost like watching most of the Reds hit.

Vottomatic
06-23-2013, 08:48 PM
I bet the LA Angels are sold on the Pirates. :D

Tom Servo
06-23-2013, 08:58 PM
Grilli got his ass handed to him today, he was lucky he had a 4 run cushion.

RedEye
06-23-2013, 11:26 PM
Grilli got his ass handed to him today, he was lucky he had a 4 run cushion.

Should we say Grilli got his ass grilled today? Seems to be a theme for NL Central closers lately.

westofyou
06-24-2013, 03:58 PM
It's been 3 starts for Cole, awfully early to be crowning him best pitcher of anything.




http://baseballmusings.com/?p=94620



Truth be told, Cole won games, but he hasn’t impressed. His 3.93 K per 9 rate is well below his minor league numbers. He got away with it so far due to his low walk rate and low home run rate. His walk rate is well below his minor league numbers as well. Chien-Ming Wang struck out more in the minors than in the majors and found success inducing a ton of ground balls. Cole may be successful doing that, but I’d like to see him get his K rate up at AAA (it dropped there, too) before becoming full time in the majors.

vaticanplum
06-25-2013, 10:28 AM
This. Exactly. I think he's fine physically. It's between the ears where he's got issues. Personally, I don't think the Pirates try to trade him. In fact, I was just discussing this with some other Pirates fans, and we think they would be best served by trying to hide him in the bullpen, and optioning someone like Duke Welker or Ryan Reid, neither of whom have pitched in a week.

You might also see Cole get optioned for a couple of weeks to avoid Super-2 status.

My guess is McDonald ends up in the bullpen and they keep Reid. Or at least that's what I think they should do, anyway.

I actually think McDonald is much more effective as a reliever. He was a solid starter last year, but it's not sustainable for him. And I don't think his mental makeup can handle being switched between the two. He is a delicate flower.

RichRed
06-25-2013, 12:41 PM
My guess is McDonald ends up in the bullpen and they keep Reid. Or at least that's what I think they should do, anyway.

I actually think McDonald is much more effective as a reliever. He was a solid starter last year, but it's not sustainable for him. And I don't think his mental makeup can handle being switched between the two. He is a delicate flower.

Ryan Reid, a fellow James Madison University Duke!

Too bad he's a filthy Pirate.

IABucFan
06-25-2013, 04:42 PM
My guess is McDonald ends up in the bullpen and they keep Reid. Or at least that's what I think they should do, anyway.

I actually think McDonald is much more effective as a reliever. He was a solid starter last year, but it's not sustainable for him. And I don't think his mental makeup can handle being switched between the two. He is a delicate flower.

Well, it took care of itself. McDonald back on the DL with continued shoulder soreness. He's going to see Dr. James Andrews.

traderumor
06-26-2013, 10:13 AM
I was curious on Jeff Locke, quickly researched his minor league numbers to see if he is a first time around the league wonder, and noticed something interesting. He started out with the Braves and was miserable, but then the Pirates picked him up and his numbers have steadily improved. With the state of pitching in this organization, it appears that their pitching development team is now a strength.

IABucFan
06-26-2013, 02:22 PM
I was curious on Jeff Locke, quickly researched his minor league numbers to see if he is a first time around the league wonder, and noticed something interesting. He started out with the Braves and was miserable, but then the Pirates picked him up and his numbers have steadily improved. With the state of pitching in this organization, it appears that their pitching development team is now a strength.

He was acquired in the Nate McLouth trade, which also brought in Charlie Morton and Gorkys Hernandez, who was later flipped to the Fish for Gabby Sanchez. He had a decent run through the minors, but I don't think even the most optimistic of Pirates fans thought that he would be this good. I'm still not sure it will last, but I must admit, I get excited thinking about a future rotation of Cole-Taillon-Locke-Heredia-Kingham.

traderumor
06-26-2013, 02:56 PM
He was acquired in the Nate McLouth trade, which also brought in Charlie Morton and Gorkys Hernandez, who was later flipped to the Fish for Gabby Sanchez. He had a decent run through the minors, but I don't think even the most optimistic of Pirates fans thought that he would be this good. I'm still not sure it will last, but I must admit, I get excited thinking about a future rotation of Cole-Taillon-Locke-Heredia-Kingham.Well, I'm not sold on Locke, but he was going nowhere fast in the Braves org., so even for him to make it to the bigs seems like a feather in the scouting and development cap.

New York Red
06-26-2013, 02:57 PM
The Reds are 6-12 against the Pirates and Cardinals (39-21 against the rest of the schedule). That is reason enough to be concerned about both of them. I don't know what the deciding factor is in determining whether I'm sold on the Pirates or not, but they are definitely worthy of our concern, as is every other team playing .500 or better baseball.

vaticanplum
07-10-2013, 09:04 PM
Well, the weather in Pittsburgh has been horrifying and apocalyptic all day long, but this is pretty nice. (not my picture -- game is delayed)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5520/9256771871_62571f7a69.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95418491@N00/9256771871/)

RedEye
07-31-2013, 10:07 AM
Thought this thread deserved a bump. The title gets more and more ironic by the day. That late-season collapse is looking less and less likely this year, even though the Bucs continue to overperform their Pythag. Reds and Bucs currently on a collision course for the post-season, one-game playoff. Not sure how I feel about facing this team of destiny in one game. Could end badly, I'm afraid.

Redsfansince72
07-31-2013, 10:20 AM
Thought this thread deserved a bump. The title gets more and more ironic by the day. That late-season collapse is looking less and less likely this year, even though the Bucs continue to overperform their Pythag. Reds and Bucs currently on a collision course for the post-season, one-game playoff. Not sure how I feel about facing this team of destiny in one game. Could end badly, I'm afraid.

the difference between the Pirates and Reds?? the Pirates are HUNGRY after blowing the last 2 years half way thru the season. the Reds??? Are not as hungry as I would expect after blowing 2 post season appearances. I expected them to be hungry to beat up on everybody like they did the Giants this year. NOT just focus on the Giants for blowing October last year at home to the same Giants... I want to drink what these sports writers of late who are Picking the Reds to win the World Series this year. I dont see it and it frustrates me

alwaysawarrior
07-31-2013, 10:23 AM
the difference between the Pirates and Reds?? the Pirates are HUNGRY after blowing the last 2 years half way thru the season. the Reds??? Are not as hungry as I would expect after blowing 2 post season appearances. I expected them to be hungry to beat up on everybody like they did the Giants this year. NOT just focus on the Giants for blowing October last year at home to the same Giants... I want to drink what these sports writers of late who are Picking the Reds to win the World Series this year. I dont see it and it frustrates me

I don't think these players are any less hungry than any others. I think it just looks that way when you can't score. The offense is very offensive at times and it's hard for guys to be overly rah rah at those points.
As far as picking them to win the WS, as bad as they have looked recently, they still are in the drivers seat for a place at the table. From there flip a coin and that's basically what anybody picking the reds is doing.

vaticanplum
07-31-2013, 01:28 PM
Pirates fans should be happy if they finish above .500. I think the team will continue to do well and I think there's a strong chance they'll make the playoffs. I don't think they're as good a team as the Reds but momentum and luck finally seem to be on their side and in this division I think that may matter more.

If they do make the playoffs, I expect them to have a series exactly like the Reds did in 2010. This team, in fact, reminds mne of the Reds in 2010.

I'm in hell, meanwhile. a good 20% of any social media feed of mine has been declarations the last several hours of "my heart was broken when Barry Bonds missed that throw in 1992 and I vowed never to follow the Pirates again. Finally, I am a believer." as if they deserve kudos and joy. How nice for you that you gave up on your team after one bad series and conveniently missed their worst period in history, while all the while having two perennial championship teams down the street to focus your attention on. I'm thrilled for you. Excuse me while I nestle among my decade of diaries filled with accounts of nightmares involving Eric Milton hacking apart my youthful, joyful soul with a splintered bat.

kaldaniels
07-31-2013, 03:30 PM
Thought this thread deserved a bump. The title gets more and more ironic by the day. That late-season collapse is looking less and less likely this year, even though the Bucs continue to overperform their Pythag. Reds and Bucs currently on a collision course for the post-season, one-game playoff. Not sure how I feel about facing this team of destiny in one game. Could end badly, I'm afraid.

As the thread/title maker, I'd like to point out that this thread was started and titled in June 2011. Before either of their 2 famed collapses.

I stand by all remarks I made, and without looking, I wager most of mine were fairly on the mark.

I'm not wanting to toot my own horn by any stretch, but there is nothing ironic about that dated thread. Unless one just wanted to dust it off to claim it's ironic.

And I like your style Redeye, and I know you are just playing for giggles here, nothing personal, but as thread starter and one of the main participants I just want to make sure it's represented fairly.

RedEye
07-31-2013, 04:41 PM
As the thread/title maker, I'd like to point out that this thread was started and titled in June 2011. Before either of their 2 famed collapses.

I stand by all remarks I made, and without looking, I wager most of mine were fairly on the mark.

I'm not wanting to toot my own horn by any stretch, but there is nothing ironic about that dated thread. Unless one just wanted to dust it off to claim it's ironic.

And I like your style Redeye, and I know you are just playing for giggles here, nothing personal, but as thread starter and one of the main participants I just want to make sure it's represented fairly.

Ha! You know what, Kal, I didn't even remember that this thread dated back to 2011! So yes, there is no way that the title -- as originally intended -- is ironic.

However, if you consider irony as something de-linked from original intention, the words you wrote, given the present state of the NL Central race and the morphing mentality of this board of late, are quite ironic indeed. That's not any reflection on you and what you meant in 2011. :-)

RedEye
08-01-2013, 10:31 AM
Current NL Central standings:

Pirates 65-42 .607
Cards 62-44 .585
Reds 60-49 .550

Run differential - Pirates +64, Cards +118, Reds +83

Pirates might not be "for real", but they are definitely for real at this point.

Tom Servo
08-01-2013, 10:35 AM
Current NL Central standings:

Pirates 65-42 .607
Cards 62-44 .585
Reds 60-49 .550

Run differential - Pirates +64, Cards +118, Reds +83

Pirates might not be "for real", but they are definitely for real at this point.
They were 60-44 on August 1st last year. I think they have built up a nice cushion this year and are likely a playoff team...but there's still plenty of time.

RedEye
08-01-2013, 10:46 AM
They were 60-44 on August 1st last year. I think they have built up a nice cushion this year and are likely a playoff team...but there's still plenty of time.

Good point. I suppose the Pirates were the Reds last year in terms of positioning. Hopefully the Reds aren't this year's 2012 Pirates. :eek:

mdccclxix
08-01-2013, 11:08 AM
As the thread/title maker, I'd like to point out that this thread was started and titled in June 2011. Before either of their 2 famed collapses.

I stand by all remarks I made, and without looking, I wager most of mine were fairly on the mark.

I'm not wanting to toot my own horn by any stretch, but there is nothing ironic about that dated thread. Unless one just wanted to dust it off to claim it's ironic.

And I like your style Redeye, and I know you are just playing for giggles here, nothing personal, but as thread starter and one of the main participants I just want to make sure it's represented fairly.

For this reason, I think it's time to lock this thread. It's being twisted in a way that is irrelevant. Anyone believing in the rats can start a thread called "I'm sold on the Pirates".

RedEye
08-01-2013, 11:12 AM
For this reason, I think it's time to lock this thread. It's being twisted in a way that is irrelevant. Anyone believing in the rats can start a thread called "I'm sold on the Pirates".

How is it irrelevant? It is a thread about the Pirates and whether or not we're sold on them this year. The topic has some continuity, even if the initial intention was different. Kind of cool to have a record of the recurrent conversation since 2011, too, IMO. The current edition of the Pirates is a fascinating exercise in managing expectations.

Anyway, I'll leave that up to the mods.

mdccclxix
08-01-2013, 11:19 AM
No one in the last two years has started a thread about how they aren't sold on the Pirates, but when you see the title of the thread it implies talk of this season. It wouldn't be the first thread title that meant the wrong thing I guess, but it is also a gotcha type of thread - that isn't even really a gotcha.

RedEye
08-01-2013, 11:21 AM
No one in the last two years has started a thread about how they aren't sold on the Pirates, but when you see the title of the thread it implies talk of this season. It wouldn't be the first thread title that meant the wrong thing I guess, but it is also a gotcha type of thread - that isn't even really a gotcha.

I think there are a number of posters who currently aren't sold on the Pirates given their lower run differential than the Cards and the Reds. That may have changed in the past few days since their utter domination of StL in the last series, but it doesn't mean that the thread title doesn't express an attitude that still exists on the board. Plus, it is provocative, it has a three-year history, and it keeps going -- maybe because it incites people to participate. Isn't that the point of a message board, in many, many ways?

mdccclxix
08-01-2013, 11:22 AM
Why not change the thread title to include 2011 Pirates?

RedEye
08-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Why not change the thread title to include 2011 Pirates?

Or change it to reflect the fact that the original post was in 2011, and that now the conversation has extended over two other seasons. This edition of the Pirates seems remarkably resilient but it also bears great parallels with the past two. I think this is a conversation that should go on with reference to the past.