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cumberlandreds
06-28-2011, 08:17 AM
Beware, Adam Dunn fans. You may not want to read this article by Joe Poz.


http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/06/27/the-least-exciting-player-ever/?xid=cnnbin&hpt=hp_bn10 (http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/06/27/the-least-exciting-player-ever/?xid=cnnbin&hpt=hp_bn10)

RedsManRick
06-28-2011, 08:24 AM
I think Poz hits it on the nose. Even when Dunn was hitting homers, he was boring. While a walk might be more valuable than your average ball in play, it's much less exciting. I think fans "excitement" is actually the biggest single thing in what makes fans like a player. It's why fans like speed. It's why they like contact. It's why they hate strikeouts -- they feel robbed of a chance for excitement.

Regardless of how productive Dunn is or was, he was pretty boring.

NJReds
06-28-2011, 08:25 AM
I think Poz is right this year. But when he had decent seasons, you didn't want to miss a Dunn at bat.

I remember Kevin McReynolds being an exceptionally boring player for a guy that put up decent numbers. He always looked like he'd rather be somewhere else.

westofyou
06-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Roy Cullenbine was slammed by Bill DeWitt for the same approach in the 40's, he claimed that Cullenbine was the most boring player he ever saw, and that he never swung to save his life

Blitz Dorsey
06-28-2011, 09:24 AM
Hilarious. I was just getting ready to post this.

Would love to hear the Dunner fans come to his defense. The guy has been beyond awful. And sorry, not giving him a pass because he's "adjusting" to being a DH. If he's that mentally weak that he needs to go play bad defense for an inning to help with his hitting, then that's just a character flaw. It shouldn't be hard for someone like Dunn to DH. All he was doing was hurting his team whenever he played defense anyway. Soooooo glad the Reds didn't sign him to some LTC that would completely have the franchise strapped right now. Sorry, ChiSox. You're stuck with him for a long time.

traderumor
06-28-2011, 09:29 AM
Now, can we talk about the real big elephant in the room, and how borish the Yankees are to watch for the very same reasons that Pos correctly identifies Abreu at-bats as such? 3-1/2 to 4 hour games nightly, foul ball after foul ball, doing exactly what a great approach at the plate will yield, is successful, but man is it brutal to watch. I was able to watch one game of that series, and as an example, saw two ABs where Curtis Granderson did not swing the bat once and walked. And they weren't four straight balls either. Frustrating, boring baseball. Effective, but frustrating and boring to watch.

It makes you want to scream "SWING THE BAT" like you're at a little league game watching a kid wait for a walk.

lollipopcurve
06-28-2011, 09:32 AM
You get the feeling that Dunner sold his baseball soul for the big $$$. He knew being a DH would puncture something in him, and so far it has.

nate
06-28-2011, 09:35 AM
Late career Barry Bonds was actually pretty boring because he was intentionally walked so frequently.

traderumor
06-28-2011, 09:37 AM
Having lived through the brutal 2003 season of Dunn's, I feel the pain of Chisox fans. I remember many warnings from one our resident sages, WOY, who talked about the likelihood of a cliff fall because of Dunn's frame. I hope he's wrong, Dunn is a good guy and he is easy to root for.......just brutal to watch when he's not hitting homers. Boy, the more I think about, the more Pos nailed it.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-28-2011, 09:41 AM
Hilarious. I was just getting ready to post this.

Would love to hear the Dunner fans come to his defense. The guy has been beyond awful. And sorry, not giving him a pass because he's "adjusting" to being a DH. If he's that mentally weak that he needs to go play bad defense for an inning to help with his hitting, then that's just a character flaw. It shouldn't be hard for someone like Dunn to DH. All he was doing was hurting his team whenever he played defense anyway. Soooooo glad the Reds didn't sign him to some LTC that would completely have the franchise strapped right now. Sorry, ChiSox. You're stuck with him for a long time.

I was a Dunn fan and supporter. Proud to admit it as well.

He was solid while he was here.

21+ WAR player with the Reds that was was paid like he was less than half of that. Overall great value.

Scapegoat for years of Reds futility. It wasn't his fault that he didn't have protection in the lineup and a decent pitching staff.

Rarely missed a game and mashed the rare decent pitches he got.

Still have visions of that walk-off grand slam vs. the Tribe.

Yep, I liked him. Good guy too.

westofyou
06-28-2011, 09:44 AM
I was a Dunn fan and supporter. Proud to admit it as well.

He was solid while he was here.

21+ WAR player with the Reds that was was paid like he was less than half of that. Overall great value.

Scapegoat for years of Reds futility. It wasn't his fault that he didn't have protection in the lineup and a decent pitching staff.

Rarely missed a game and mashed the rare decent pitches he got.

Still have visions of that walk-off grand slam vs. the Tribe.

Yep, I liked him. Good guy too.

Yep, one of the most interesting Reds in their history, a unique player with a distinct set of tools.

I feel no shame in being a fan of his, especially since he's in a slump and could be seeing a major drop in his performance... like every other player who ever stepped between the lines.

Edskin
06-28-2011, 10:18 AM
I think the relationship between fans and Dunn goes a lot deeper than numbers. Right or wrong, perception or reality, there were/are questions about whether or not Dunn was as good a he could be. Where there is smoke there is fire and what Ricciardi said has been echoed by many throughout the game.

Did Dunn work as hard as he could?

That's the real reason many fans don't like him or at least did not connect with him.

And it doesn't matter if you are a really good player anyway.... If you leave something on the table and maybe could have been a "great" player fans are going to grumble.

I make no blanket claims... I have no idea if Adam Dunn was the hardest worker in MLB or how much he loves the game, etc. But if you put a gun to my head and said was Adam Dunn the absolute beat player he could be, I'd say no. I could certainly be wrong, but that is my gut. I don't feel that way about many of our current stars.

Some athletes are just good at what they do--- they may or may not enjoy it. Shawn Kemp in the NBA always comes to mind as a guy who was just gifted to play basketball--- and he admittedly said it wasn't a real passion for him--- andas he got older, he got out of shape quickly and his career ended earlier than you would have guessed. Doesn't make him a bad guy at all--- but fans want their athletes to be "all in" and if the perception is that they aren't, then they aren't going to embrace that player.

I think that is the case with Dunn.

OnBaseMachine
06-28-2011, 11:18 AM
I was a Dunn fan and supporter. Proud to admit it as well.

He was solid while he was here.

21+ WAR player with the Reds that was was paid like he was less than half of that. Overall great value.

Scapegoat for years of Reds futility. It wasn't his fault that he didn't have protection in the lineup and a decent pitching staff.

Rarely missed a game and mashed the rare decent pitches he got.

Still have visions of that walk-off grand slam vs. the Tribe.

Yep, I liked him. Good guy too.

Yep, that's exactly how I feel. And I didn't find Dunn boring at all. I made it a point to drop everything I was doing at the time and watch his atbats. At any time he could blast a 500 foot HR. I still remember being in attendance when he hit a 535 foot HR off Jose Lima and the Dodgers in August of 2004.

I'm not convinced he fell off the cliff this fast. I think he has a few more productive seasons left in him.

btw, I find the Red Sox/Yankees games very entertaining.

Hoosier Red
06-28-2011, 11:22 AM
I think the relationship between fans and Dunn goes a lot deeper than numbers. Right or wrong, perception or reality, there were/are questions about whether or not Dunn was as good a he could be. Where there is smoke there is fire and what Ricciardi said has been echoed by many throughout the game.

Did Dunn work as hard as he could?

That's the real reason many fans don't like him or at least did not connect with him.

And it doesn't matter if you are a really good player anyway.... If you leave something on the table and maybe could have been a "great" player fans are going to grumble.

I make no blanket claims... I have no idea if Adam Dunn was the hardest worker in MLB or how much he loves the game, etc. But if you put a gun to my head and said was Adam Dunn the absolute beat player he could be, I'd say no. I could certainly be wrong, but that is my gut. I don't feel that way about many of our current stars.

Some athletes are just good at what they do--- they may or may not enjoy it. Shawn Kemp in the NBA always comes to mind as a guy who was just gifted to play basketball--- and he admittedly said it wasn't a real passion for him--- andas he got older, he got out of shape quickly and his career ended earlier than you would have guessed. Doesn't make him a bad guy at all--- but fans want their athletes to be "all in" and if the perception is that they aren't, then they aren't going to embrace that player.

I think that is the case with Dunn.

I agree that the disconnect with many fans starts at this, a perception that he wasn't living up to potential. There's nothing fans hate more than potential wasted.

I think they took his body language to mean he didn't care, and his good natured attitude and believed that he wasn't working hard. At least Ryan Freel cares! Right, and did any of us know what time Ryan Freel showed up at the park? Did any of us know how much time Dunn put in the cages to get himself ready? No, but we made assumptions based on what we wanted to see.

This gets to another thing that drives me crazy about fans perceptions.
There are so many attitudes that if displayed outside of athletics are taken as a negative but in the minds of a sports fan.

What would you think of a CEO who worked 18 hours a day, never made time for his wife, ignored his kids. When he was at the office, was demanding and a general pain to be around, everyone in the office lived in fear of him.
In real life you'd think he's a Workaholic Jerk. You'd think, thank goodness I don't work in that company.
In sports, that's Michael Jordan, or Peyton Manning, or Pre-crash Tiger Woods.

Conversely, what would you think about a guy who doesn't take himself too seriously. When he shows up to work, he gets the job done, but he has a unique way of doing it. He tends to bring together the office and everyone wants to be around him, and if the ship's going down, he tells his co-workers, "Don't worry about it, I'll take the blame."
That's the guy you want to work with. Most people actually perform better when working around this guy.
In sports, the guy is seen as lazy and lackadaisical. People complain about how he just doesn't want it enough.

NJReds
06-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Now, can we talk about the real big elephant in the room, and how borish the Yankees are to watch for the very same reasons that Pos correctly identifies Abreu at-bats as such? 3-1/2 to 4 hour games nightly, foul ball after foul ball, doing exactly what a great approach at the plate will yield, is successful, but man is it brutal to watch. I was able to watch one game of that series, and as an example, saw two ABs where Curtis Granderson did not swing the bat once and walked. And they weren't four straight balls either. Frustrating, boring baseball. Effective, but frustrating and boring to watch.

It makes you want to scream "SWING THE BAT" like you're at a little league game watching a kid wait for a walk.


Red Sox - Yankees games need an intermission because they're so darn long. They just wear down the starting pitchers.

Ghosts of 1990
06-28-2011, 11:34 AM
I was in the Diamond Seats a few rows behind home plate at GABP a few years back when he hit a home run out of the stadium off John Smoltz that cleared the batter's eye in CF before the boat was located there. The Reds lost that game 8-3 or 8-2. That was pretty exciting to me.

Good baseball writer, poor decision to pile on here.

Always Red
06-28-2011, 11:36 AM
Yep, one of the most interesting Reds in their history, a unique player with a distinct set of tools.

I feel no shame in being a fan of his, especially since he's in a slump and could be seeing a major drop in his performance... like every other player who ever stepped between the lines.

Other than Eric Davis, Adam Dunn is the most polarizing Red during my years of fandom. I remember back to the Alex Johnson and Bobby Tolan days.

I was a fan of Dunn's when he was a Red, and was sorry to see him go. I tend to follow all ex-Reds, for some odd reason, and hope that they all do well except against the Reds. It's like they're one of my kids, all grown up and moved out of the house...

Except for Jim Edmonds.

But there is no defending Dunn this year at all. I hope he snaps out of it.

I would love to sit and enjoy a Yankees/Red Sox game, but eventually get bored to death and change the channel.

Not only do all of the players work the count, but the 2nd part of the equation is that all of the pitchers nibble as well.

Sea Ray
06-28-2011, 11:41 AM
I admit to checking the box scores to see how he's doing and his most recent game on Sunday he was 0-4 with 4 strikeouts. It's not getting better. Sure a lot of us precidted he'd struggle in his 30s but who thought it'd be like this?

I always liked Dunn as a person and was a rare good player for this team in the miserable run of this franchise a few years ago but I also admit to being irritated by fans desperate for a Reds hero, to make him out to be a superstar and some even thought he was destined for Cooperstown. No shame on Dunn to say he was none of those and it wasn't his fault that he was overrated by so many fans

Hoosier Red
06-28-2011, 12:57 PM
I was in the Diamond Seats a few rows behind home plate at GABP a few years back when he hit a home run out of the stadium off John Smoltz that cleared the batter's eye in CF before the boat was located there. The Reds lost that game 8-3 or 8-2. That was pretty exciting to me.

Good baseball writer, poor decision to pile on here.

I'm taking the article a little bit differently. I don't think he means that Dunn has always been unexciting, but rather that he is now unexciting because you've removed even the potential of seeing a Ruthian clout. Now it's just strikeouts and walks, mainly strikeouts.

I tend to agree with this.
I also tend to believe that the article does a good job of going out of its way to point out that just because its exciting doesn't make it good, and just because its good doesn't mean it's exciting.

Tom Servo
06-28-2011, 01:17 PM
I've never found Dunn to be boring, I always looked forward to his at-bats personally.

LoganBuck
06-28-2011, 02:05 PM
I knew he was struggling, but he was just dropped in my fantasy league. I went scurrying to find out what the story was, and was shocked at just how bad his numbers were. Makes me wonder if he needs to drop a few pounds. He has reached the age, where you have to work at staying in shape more, and he doesn't seem to be getting any smaller. Yahoo lists him at 287, could he gain some bat speed at 270-275?

hebroncougar
06-28-2011, 02:12 PM
Hilarious. I was just getting ready to post this.

Would love to hear the Dunner fans come to his defense. The guy has been beyond awful. And sorry, not giving him a pass because he's "adjusting" to being a DH. If he's that mentally weak that he needs to go play bad defense for an inning to help with his hitting, then that's just a character flaw. It shouldn't be hard for someone like Dunn to DH. All he was doing was hurting his team whenever he played defense anyway. Soooooo glad the Reds didn't sign him to some LTC that would completely have the franchise strapped right now. Sorry, ChiSox. You're stuck with him for a long time.


So, the Dunn bashers get to be correct.......5 years later? He's obviously have a poor year. And most people knew he wouldn't age well, with his type of skills, it's a pretty known fact they nose dive early. He was a good player for the Reds, showed up to play every day. Put up great offensive numbers.

Johnny Footstool
06-28-2011, 02:26 PM
Anyone who says Dunn was never exciting is being disingenuous. The guy was a potential game-changer every time he stepped to the plate. Poz gets that right.

CTA513
06-28-2011, 02:34 PM
Hilarious. I was just getting ready to post this.

Would love to hear the Dunner fans come to his defense. The guy has been beyond awful. And sorry, not giving him a pass because he's "adjusting" to being a DH. If he's that mentally weak that he needs to go play bad defense for an inning to help with his hitting, then that's just a character flaw. It shouldn't be hard for someone like Dunn to DH. All he was doing was hurting his team whenever he played defense anyway. Soooooo glad the Reds didn't sign him to some LTC that would completely have the franchise strapped right now. Sorry, ChiSox. You're stuck with him for a long time.

4 years while the Reds had him for 8.

CTA513
06-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I knew he was struggling, but he was just dropped in my fantasy league. I went scurrying to find out what the story was, and was shocked at just how bad his numbers were. Makes me wonder if he needs to drop a few pounds. He has reached the age, where you have to work at staying in shape more, and he doesn't seem to be getting any smaller. Yahoo lists him at 287, could he gain some bat speed at 270-275?

If hes 287 then the White Sox should be telling him to get down to at least 265, it would also help if he closed up his stance some and brought his bat back up instead of letting it hang behind his back.

westofyou
06-28-2011, 02:47 PM
4 years while the Reds had him for 8.

Yep, Reds won, they baked the cake, they ate the cake and in the end someone else is going to be paying for most of that cakes crumbs.

mbgrayson
06-28-2011, 02:52 PM
I never thought of Adam as boring at all, until this year. I watched him a few times on TV with the White Sox, and it was like a foregone conclusion that he would strike out.

I also can't forget his call to the banana phone during a rain delay: "Marty, do you have a shirt on...?" Funny....

In one year, he has gone from a 3.6 WAR player to a -.9 player. His BABIP has dropped from .329 to .262. (Career BABIP is .294). His strike out rate has climbed from about 25% in 2008, his last year with the Reds, to over 35% this year. His OPS is currently .624, down from .892 last year in Washington.

I really wonder if Adam is playing hurt. I know about the appendectomy in April, and I wonder if he shouldn't have come back more slowly. It's also very possible that something else is wrong with Adam. The drop-off in his production looks to me to be much worse than any possible age related decline. There is something else going on....

traderumor
06-28-2011, 02:57 PM
Yep, Reds won, they baked the cake, they ate the cake and in the end someone else is going to be paying for most of that cakes crumbs.Except they left him in the oven too long and didn't get any long-term meaningful return out of him.

Big Klu
06-28-2011, 03:15 PM
If hes 287 then the White Sox should be telling him to get down to at least 265, it would also help if he closed up his stance some and brought his bat back up instead of letting it hang behind his back.

Baseball-reference.com has him listed at 285.

westofyou
06-28-2011, 03:26 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0628-white-sox-chicago--20110627,0,136600.story



On whether he still believes in Dunn, with whom he and Ozzie Guillen had a lengthy closed-door meeting Sunday:

"If you look at his timeline since he's been in the big leagues, it's a pretty damn good body of work. What he's going through now, when it is said and done, will be a little blip on that line.

"I told him I do not regret the decision (to give Dunn a $56 million contract) in any way, shape or form. I believe we needed him, I believed it when we got him and I still believe he will play the major part we thought he was going to. It just hasn't turned out to this point.

"His problem is he cares so much and he wants to make an impression on the people of Chicago. As soon as he gets back to being Adam Dunn and puts it out of his mind, he's going to be the player we all thought he was. Ability doesn't just go overnight. I would make the same move tomorrow again."

Edskin
06-28-2011, 03:29 PM
I agree that the disconnect with many fans starts at this, a perception that he wasn't living up to potential. There's nothing fans hate more than potential wasted.

I think they took his body language to mean he didn't care, and his good natured attitude and believed that he wasn't working hard. At least Ryan Freel cares! Right, and did any of us know what time Ryan Freel showed up at the park? Did any of us know how much time Dunn put in the cages to get himself ready? No, but we made assumptions based on what we wanted to see.

This gets to another thing that drives me crazy about fans perceptions.
There are so many attitudes that if displayed outside of athletics are taken as a negative but in the minds of a sports fan.

What would you think of a CEO who worked 18 hours a day, never made time for his wife, ignored his kids. When he was at the office, was demanding and a general pain to be around, everyone in the office lived in fear of him.
In real life you'd think he's a Workaholic Jerk. You'd think, thank goodness I don't work in that company.
In sports, that's Michael Jordan, or Peyton Manning, or Pre-crash Tiger Woods.

Conversely, what would you think about a guy who doesn't take himself too seriously. When he shows up to work, he gets the job done, but he has a unique way of doing it. He tends to bring together the office and everyone wants to be around him, and if the ship's going down, he tells his co-workers, "Don't worry about it, I'll take the blame."
That's the guy you want to work with. Most people actually perform better when working around this guy.
In sports, the guy is seen as lazy and lackadaisical. People complain about how he just doesn't want it enough.

This is logical thinking, however, it omits one important point:

The reason we (sports fans) love sports is because it is NOT the real world. You can do and say things in sports you don't do or say in other areas of society (can you imagine a salary cap at an energy corporation?). Thusly, fans hold athletes to standards and expectations that may or may not be desireable in the real world.

I think it boils down to this....deep down, the vast majority of sports fans wish they could be pro athletes. Not just for the fame and money, but because they get to prolong their youth for so long...road trips with friends, playing cards on the plane, spring training hijinks, etc.. Most fans feel that if they were given that chance that they would take nothing for granted and be at the park/field/court from sunrise to sunset if that's what it took to stay there.

If an athlete comes along that gives a "flippant" feel to the fans (perceived or actual) that athlete tends to garner resentment.

There really aren't many athletes that fall into this category in my lifetime...Dunn and the other example I gave, Shawn Kemp are two of the only ones I can think of.

There are other guys like Jeff George who probably never lived up to their potential, but George was a jerk and bad teammate and generally disliked by everyone-- not the case at all with Dunn.

I suppose Ricky Williams might fall into this category as well... very clear that his sport and his gift were not his passion.

Sea Ray
06-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Baseball-reference.com has him listed at 285.

Wasn't he 245 as a rookie?

RedsManRick
06-28-2011, 03:51 PM
Regarding whether or not Dunn is cooked, I think David Ortiz is an interesting example. The past two years, he's really struggled to start the season. People were saying the same things about him that they're saying about Dunn -- the old skill set, the body, etc. And he's bounced back each time. This year, he started out relatively slow yet again.

I find it interesting that Dunn is walking as much as ever and making as much contact as ever. His swinging strike % is down from last year. He's got a 20% LD%. His GB/FB rate is normal. One big difference is that he's swinging much more than he ever did as a Red. But he did that last year too, but it showed up only in the form of turning walks in to singles and striking out slightly more.

I see two major outliers.

1) IFFB%. He's popping up a TON of balls. Without having watched him, it's hard to say why this is happening, but it's odd to see this spike while his contact rate and FB% stay steady. If his swing was notably different, you'd think it would show up there.

2) HR/FB. You will never convince me that he's gotten weaker. I suppose if he's lost bat speed due to his heft, it would show here, but to be cut in half? Sounds like bad luck to me -- at least to some extent.

I don't see anything in there that suggests any significant erosion of skill. The biggest thing seems to be the results of his fly balls -- like he's getting just under pitches he used to square up. Would that happen if he were late? Or maybe getting more pitches in a certain spot in the zone?

I also checked his HR spray chart. Historically, he mashes to all fields. This year, 5 of his 7 have been pulled right down the line. Just 1 to LF and one to LC. Where are the homers to CF and RC? Hanging up over the 2B's head apparently

One last thing, he's seeing way more fastballs than last year -- a 10% increase. Not only that, they're half a mph faster! Historically, Dunn was always a guy who crushed fastballs, but was just OK against everything else. This year he's actually struggling against fastballs.

I don't know what to make of it. If I had to guess, I'd say it's just a timing thing. Maybe that's because his bat is slowing down. Maybe it's because he's pressing. Maybe he's developed a hitch. I don't know, but I'd love to see what somebody who has watched his at bats has to say.

Here's one more theory: both the Nats and White Sox coaches have suggested (or maybe Dunn just has it in his mind) that he needs to be more aggressive at fastballs in the zone. But if there's one thing we know, it's that Dunn doesn't have good plate coverage. So if he's out there looking fastball more aggressively, he could very well be turning some pitches he used to take as strikes in to weak contact instead. The result is a combination of more foul balls and more weak pop ups. But then again, he's seeing as many pitches as he's ever seen (4.37 P/PA). I wonder if he is fouling the ball off more?

Anyways, that's my tour of the stats...

Sea Ray
06-28-2011, 04:00 PM
I think he needs to lose weight and re-dedicate himself ala Lance Berkman. I think this may help to regain bat speed. More popups and strike outs scream bat speed to me. That was Griffey Jr's thing and I also sensed a lack of bat speed from Derrick Lee this weekend. He's not nearly the feared hitter he was in his prime in a Cubs Uni. The question is will he (Dunn) make this effort since he is guaranteed big bucks for 3 more years?

Blitz Dorsey
06-28-2011, 07:52 PM
If we're talking just about Dunner's Reds career, of course he was valuable (and was underpaid given his value). My point was directed at all the people who thought the Reds should sign Dunn to a LTC in the 7-8 year range during or after the 2008 season. He would be in year three of said deal and it would be a disaster for this team if he were making $15 million/year. That's all I'm saying. Was Dunn valuable to the Reds while he was in Cincinnati? Of course. No one is arguing that point (at least not to my knowledge). But I remember there were a bunch of people that were hoping the Reds were going to sign the Big Donkey to a LTC ... I even almost got swayed myself there for a while, but did maintain I thought signing Dunn to a LTC would be a mistake. He was asking for an 8-year deal at the time if memory serves ... even though he only ended up getting a 2-year, $20 million deal from the Nats after the economy crashed. He got a darn good contract with the Pale Hose though -- 4 years/$56 M. At least Reinsdorf has the kind of money where it won't completely cripple the White Sox, but that bad contract on top of the horrendous Alex Rios contract and I'll be surprised if Kenny Williams keeps his job as GM.

(Note: Williams didn't sign Rios to that deal ... but he did pick up the contract when Rios was acquired. No good GM would have picked up Alex Rios with that contract.)

Big Klu
06-28-2011, 08:16 PM
Wasn't he 245 as a rookie?

Yes, I believe that is correct.

KronoRed
06-28-2011, 08:40 PM
I always found Dunn to be an exciting player, especially on so many horrendously built teams.

VR
06-28-2011, 11:22 PM
When I saw the title....Dann Bilardello came to mind. :lol:

WVPacman
06-29-2011, 12:00 AM
Even thow it is very early in this players career the way he plays the game is absolutely boring and aggravating.This player does the same thing that Dunn did and probably still doing and thats strikeout.When this guy comes to the plate you can go fix a sandwich or go use the bath room b/c you know what he is going to do and thats strikeout.The aggravating part about this player is that he has so much talent but refuses to use it when batting.This guy is very fast(ring a bell?) he can live on the base pads when he pounds the ball in the ground and beats the throw b/c of his speed.Does he do it? No hardly ever b/c he is always swinging for the fence acting like he is a power hitter when he is far from it.If he would hit the ball on the ground he would be safe almost every single time. Until he figures this out this player will stay boring and will continue to aggravate me and alot more Reds fans.


Oh and when he is on the base pads he is very boring b/c the man should be more active and taking chances where he is so fast.

This player is ofcourse Drew Stubbs!!

redsmetz
06-29-2011, 08:50 AM
When I saw the title....Dann Bilardello came to mind. :lol:

What, you didn't find this exciting?

Stepping into the batters box as a pinch hitter June 1, 1983 against Herzog's Cardinals, Bilardello didn't step back out again until taking 13 pitches and sending them foul. He finally hit one fair, directly at the third baseman, who threw him out.

I always remember that AB. I didn't realize it was then night before my first child was born.

Sea Ray
06-29-2011, 09:58 AM
Oh and when he is on the base pads he is very boring b/c the man should be more active and taking chances where he is so fast.

This player is ofcourse Drew Stubbs!!

The thing is Stubbs brings something else to the party other than strikeouts with his speed and defense

Hoosier Red
06-29-2011, 10:04 AM
This is logical thinking, however, it omits one important point:

The reason we (sports fans) love sports is because it is NOT the real world. You can do and say things in sports you don't do or say in other areas of society (can you imagine a salary cap at an energy corporation?). Thusly, fans hold athletes to standards and expectations that may or may not be desireable in the real world.

I think it boils down to this....deep down, the vast majority of sports fans wish they could be pro athletes. Not just for the fame and money, but because they get to prolong their youth for so long...road trips with friends, playing cards on the plane, spring training hijinks, etc.. Most fans feel that if they were given that chance that they would take nothing for granted and be at the park/field/court from sunrise to sunset if that's what it took to stay there.

If an athlete comes along that gives a "flippant" feel to the fans (perceived or actual) that athlete tends to garner resentment.

There really aren't many athletes that fall into this category in my lifetime...Dunn and the other example I gave, Shawn Kemp are two of the only ones I can think of.

There are other guys like Jeff George who probably never lived up to their potential, but George was a jerk and bad teammate and generally disliked by everyone-- not the case at all with Dunn.

I suppose Ricky Williams might fall into this category as well... very clear that his sport and his gift were not his passion.

You bring up some great examples. I also think sports has a weird mix of personal connection with very impersonal demands at times. We (and I'm happy to include myself in this group) want to be part of the team. When the Reds win, we feel like we win.

But of course none of us know the players. If a guy is underperforming our expectations, we tend to find reasons that fit our demands. It can't be that a guy who I invested time, money, and dedication into is just a human being who has limits to his abilities, if he's not performing to my standards, he must not want it badly enough. I think as Jim Rome says, "No one can play through pain quite like a fan."

The demand part of the equation is particularly interesting to me. If I own stock in a company, I don't particularly care how the CEO acts around his wife. I only want the company to make money and increase in value. But on the flip side, I don't feel any sense of accomplishment when the company goes up 20%. So the fact that its impersonal makes sense.

I think sports fans want it both ways. They want to feel like they are part of the team and they want the feelings of accomplishment when the team wins. But they want to be cold blooded executives when the team loses.

And because unless you live in Boston, your teams are going to lose more often then win, you need to find scapegoats who just don't want it badly enough, or can't be tough on the players when the time comes.

Sorry for making this a long post about a tangential topic. But this is one of the things that really makes this Reds team unique IMO. When they won last year, I did feel a sense of accomplishment. Not just because I had hung in as a fan through the lean years, but because I actually enjoyed seeing the growth of guys like Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, and Drew Stubbs. Seeing Johnny Cueto and Homer Bailey perform on the big stage after so many set backs. I felt like I had invested in those young guys before people knew how good they could be, and didn't lose faith just because Cueto all of a sudden couldn't find the strike zone, and Bruce and Stubbs couldn't distinguish it for a few weeks.

Hoosier Red
06-29-2011, 10:09 AM
What, you didn't find this exciting?

Stepping into the batters box as a pinch hitter June 1, 1983 against Herzog's Cardinals, Bilardello didn't step back out again until taking 13 pitches and sending them foul. He finally hit one fair, directly at the third baseman, who threw him out.

I always remember that AB. I didn't realize it was then night before my first child was born.

Your child must be so proud to know that she's born the day after Dann Billardello's legendary 14 pitch at bat.

Oh the stories you must tell at family reunions, about how your wife needed to go to the hospital, and you said, "NOT NOW DANGIT, BILLARDELLO'S STILL BATTING."

:p :beerme: :p
I do hope you take this as all in good fun.
:beerme:

membengal
06-29-2011, 12:04 PM
I loved dunn's time with the reds and have nothing but fond memories of his work with some otherwise borderline unwatchable teams. If his power is now gone that is too bad but it was fun rooting for that guy when he had his power swing.

redsmetz
06-29-2011, 12:17 PM
Your child must be so proud to know that she's born the day after Dann Billardello's legendary 14 pitch at bat.

Oh the stories you must tell at family reunions, about how your wife needed to go to the hospital, and you said, "NOT NOW DANGIT, BILLARDELLO'S STILL BATTING."

:p :beerme: :p
I do hope you take this as all in good fun.
:beerme:

Yeah, not exactly. Went to bed and woke early in the morning with her in labor. Now our 2nd daughter was born during the 1985 World Series and my wife had a huge labor pain in the 8th inning of Game 4, double over on the floor, but she wanted to watch the end of the game (she was still a Cardinals fan then). But after the baby was delivered, the Cards never won another game. We did get to the hospital in time for her to be delivered within 20 minutes of arriving.

Now my oldest daughter's first game in 1983 was an extra inning affair that had 45 minute rain delay with a runner on second. One pitch back, we get the game winning hit to end the game. Our daughter was a peach through the whole thing.

They're all big-time fans.

signalhome
06-29-2011, 12:59 PM
I loved dunn's time with the reds and have nothing but fond memories of his work with some otherwise borderline unwatchable teams. If his power is now gone that is too bad but it was fun rooting for that guy when he had his power swing.

I loved watching Dunn as well, at least at the plate; let's just not talk about his defense. Seriously though, patient hitters (especially those with power) are what I really love to watch, so Dunn has always been one of my favorite players, and I never really bought the notion that he didn't give it his all. I've heard a lot of complaints about the length of Red Sox/Yankees games, but those are the games I love to watch. Nothing frustrates me more than watching a free-swingers (see Guerrero, Vladimir). It all just comes down to personal preference, I guess.

Hoosier Red
06-29-2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, not exactly. Went to bed and woke early in the morning with her in labor. Now our 2nd daughter was born during the 1985 World Series and my wife had a huge labor pain in the 8th inning of Game 4, double over on the floor, but she wanted to watch the end of the game (she was still a Cardinals fan then). But after the baby was delivered, the Cards never won another game. We did get to the hospital in time for her to be delivered within 20 minutes of arriving.

Now my oldest daughter's first game in 1983 was an extra inning affair that had 45 minute rain delay with a runner on second. One pitch back, we get the game winning hit to end the game. Our daughter was a peach through the whole thing.

They're all big-time fans.

That's awesome. Glad to know you've raised them right. :)

redsmetz
06-29-2011, 02:11 PM
That's awesome. Glad to know you've raised them right. :)

My oldest lives in DC now and she came home for her brother's graduation from OSU. We went to the game the following Friday. She posted on her FB wall that it was the latest she'd been to a Reds game since the year she was born. :laugh:

Blitz Dorsey
06-30-2011, 09:43 AM
What's wrong with saying that a guy who probably never really worked all that hard at his craft ... is working even less-hard now that he got signed to a $56-million guaranteed contract? Not saying that's the problem for sure with Dunner, but it would be naive to just completely write it off as a possibility. He doesn't seem to train hard (cue the "he's a DH, what does he have to train for?" jokes) and I honestly don't know how much he works on his offensive approach and swing.

Sorry, but that's one of the huge problems about baseball in comparison to the NFL. All these guys get guaranteed contracts and don't have to worry about getting cut if they don't perform. If this were the NFL, the White Sox would just cut their losses and release Dunn after this season. But he'll be back next year because they can't afford to eat the remaining $42 million on his contract from 2012-14.

I think Adam is a good guy and I hope he turns it around. But man it's not looking good. He and Dan Uggla are fighting for some serious dubious awards this year.

Cooper
06-30-2011, 10:35 AM
I remember he and Casey having a contest to see who could eat the most steaks. Dunn finished off 3 of them. With extra weight comes less flexibilty. Surely that would effect his ability to hit.

It's one thing to be boring and productive.

Terry Francona is the most boring baseball player of all time. He played 1st base and was a slap hitting 1st baseman at that. A weak ground ball to 2nd base is the most boring play in baseball. Francona specialized in weak ground outs to 2nd base. For some reason Pete fell in love with him and played him at 1st base instead of Esasky (who was also quite boring). Finally after 150 AB's -Pete gave in and sat Tito's son down. What's ironic is that Terry's organization wouldn't give a guy with his skill set a moments notice.

Big Klu
06-30-2011, 11:34 AM
I remember he and Casey having a contest to see who could eat the most steaks. Dunn finished off 3 of them. With extra weight comes less flexibilty. Surely that would effect his ability to hit.

It's one thing to be boring and productive.

Terry Francona is the most boring baseball player of all time. He played 1st base and was a slap hitting 1st baseman at that. A weak ground ball to 2nd base is the most boring play in baseball. Francona specialized in weak ground outs to 2nd base. For some reason Pete fell in love with him and played him at 1st base instead of Esasky (who was also quite boring). Finally after 150 AB's -Pete gave in and sat Tito's son down. What's ironic is that Terry's organization wouldn't give a guy with his skill set a moments notice.

Nick Esasky was injured and on the disabled list at the beginning of the 1987 season. I don't remember what the injury was, but he didn't come off the DL until the middle of May. At the beginning of the season the Reds platooned at 1B with Terry Francona and Dave Concepcion.