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View Full Version : Why not give Renteria a shot at being the everyday SS for a while?



Blitz Dorsey
06-28-2011, 10:25 PM
Hey, I would like Zack Cozart to be called up too ... not sure what they are waiting for there. But presuming Jocketty can be taken at face value (which I don't totally believe) that he's content with the tandem of Janish and Renteria, I think it's time for Renteria to be given a legit chance to be the starting SS. Not once every 4-5 games, but everyday for a couple or three weeks. Janish has been given a fair shake and has failed miserably. While Janish and Renteria have similar batting averages (.228 for Joft J; .230 for Renteria) Renteria has a much-higher on-base percentage (.314) due to him knowing how to take a walk. Janish has one of the lowest OBP for any regular starter I can ever remember (.255). He's taken seven walks in 219 ABs this year. There is no excuse for that from a punch-and-judy hitter IMO. If you are going to bat in the .220s, you better at least take a walk occasionally. And Janish sure makes a lot of errors for a "great" defensive SS.

I realize Renteria would be a step down in that department, but he would be a huge upgrade offensively. And I'm not suggesting that the Reds hand the job over to Renteria for the rest of the season. But what's wrong with giving him a fair shake for 2-3 weeks? You know, kind of like what the team has done with Janish all year. He's been given his chance. Now it's Renteria's turn IMO ... unless they decide it's finally time to give Cozart a shot. Renteria has never been given a chance to get in the lineup on a regular basis and get comfortable. I think he would do well if he did. And even as is, don't we want a guy with a .314 OBP in the lineup instead of a guy with a .255? .255 is almost too staggering to believe for an on-base percentage. Seven walks all year from Janish! Yet they keep giving him a chance.

RedFanAlways1966
06-28-2011, 10:43 PM
Is it possible for a man Renteria's age (or just Edgar period) to stay healthy being a starting SS in MLB? The possibility of losing that extra infielder off the bench must play into this equation.

hebroncougar
06-28-2011, 10:46 PM
Because he's not an upgrade offensively, and he's a severe downgrade defensively?

CTA513
06-28-2011, 10:47 PM
He hasn't shown much offense and hes made 2 more errors in about 200 less innings so far.

Superdude
06-28-2011, 11:02 PM
He's taken seven walks in 219 ABs this year. There is no excuse for that from a punch-and-judy hitter IMO. If you are going to bat in the .220s, you better at least take a walk occasionally.

Would you walk Paul Janish? No pitcher in his right mind is going to be nibbling the corners to a guy hitting .220 with zero power.

Edit: As I'm posting this I realize Renteria has a very healthy walk rate. What do you know

Blitz Dorsey
06-28-2011, 11:09 PM
Because he's not an upgrade offensively, and he's a severe downgrade defensively?

He's not an upgrade offensively? Whaaaaaat? Renteria's on-base percentage is .80 points higher than Janish's. C'mon man, if you are going to bring an argument to the table, don't say something absurd like Renteria is not an offensive upgrade over Janish. They hit for about the same average but Edgar actually knows how to take a walk once in a blue moon.

Honestly, it shouldn't matter though. Cozart should have been called up yesterday. Or last week.

TOBTTReds
06-28-2011, 11:11 PM
:explode:

Homer Bailey
06-28-2011, 11:13 PM
I'd much rather see Renteria DFA's than being the every day starter. I'm honestly shocked that anyone would want to see Renteria starting.

Superdude
06-28-2011, 11:21 PM
He's not an upgrade offensively? Whaaaaaat? Renteria's on-base percentage is .80 points higher than Janish's

Renteria's OBP is entirely propped up by the best walk rate of his career. I think it's reasonable to question whether or not that will continue.


Honestly, it shouldn't matter though. Cozart should have been called up yesterday. Or last week.

This very much. I'd rather not open the other spoiled milk in my fridge just because Walt says it's not time to go to the grocery yet.

hebroncougar
06-28-2011, 11:30 PM
He's not an upgrade offensively? Whaaaaaat? Renteria's on-base percentage is .80 points higher than Janish's. C'mon man, if you are going to bring an argument to the table, don't say something absurd like Renteria is not an offensive upgrade over Janish. They hit for about the same average but Edgar actually knows how to take a walk once in a blue moon.

Honestly, it shouldn't matter though. Cozart should have been called up yesterday. Or last week.

No, he's not. Check out his last year of playing regularly. And that was 2 years ago. He's not. Janish's OPS was higher last year than the last 3 seasons of Renteria. Let that sink in. Then throw in the defensive difference. It's not even an argument.

Griffey012
06-28-2011, 11:42 PM
Put it this way, big at bat in the game, say the 7th inning and runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 out, who would you rather have at the plate...Renteria or Janish.

Renteria is the no brainer, but you can try and convince me otherwise. That right there just shows he is an offensive upgrade. Regardless of the numbers, just watching the two at the plate tells you Renteria is the better hitter of the two. He has a better approach, has more pop (even though its not much), and looks over powered a lot less.

hebroncougar
06-28-2011, 11:46 PM
Put it this way, big at bat in the game, say the 7th inning and runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 out, who would you rather have at the plate...Renteria or Janish.

Renteria is the no brainer, but you can try and convince me otherwise. That right there just shows he is an offensive upgrade. Regardless of the numbers, just watching the two at the plate tells you Renteria is the better hitter of the two. He has a better approach, has more pop (even though its not much), and looks over powered a lot less.

So use him as a pinch hitter. Janish's glove is worth a whole lot more than Renteria's bat. Their bats are a push at this stage or Renteria's career.

AmarilloRed
06-28-2011, 11:51 PM
Neither should be starting-both are backups at best.

Superdude
06-28-2011, 11:53 PM
Renteria is the no brainer, but you can try and convince me otherwise. That right there just shows he is an offensive upgrade. Regardless of the numbers, just watching the two at the plate tells you Renteria is the better hitter of the two. He has a better approach, has more pop (even though its not much), and looks over powered a lot less.

Renteria has three doubles this year and those are his only extra base hits. He doesn't have anything even resembling pop.

WVRedsFan
06-28-2011, 11:55 PM
Is it possible for a man Renteria's age (or just Edgar period) to stay healthy being a starting SS in MLB? The possibility of losing that extra infielder off the bench must play into this equation.Very true. Although Edgar and Scott Rolen are roughly the same age, and they both need some down time, we can see how devastating the loss of Rolen is to the team (even though Cairo has been adequate). Good point.

camisadelgolf
06-28-2011, 11:58 PM
I want to see Janish batting second everyday with Gomes in left field. Also, it'd be great if Miguel Cairo could spell Joey Votto more often.

Griffey012
06-29-2011, 08:21 AM
Renteria has three doubles this year and those are his only extra base hits. He doesn't have anything even resembling pop.

Janish's doubles are usually ground balls down one of the lines. Renteria at least has some warning track power, and his line drives are capable or shattering a glass window. Neither of them have much pop at all, but Renteria still has more.

RedFanAlways1966
06-29-2011, 08:29 AM
Janish's doubles are usually ground balls down one of the lines. Renteria at least has some warning track power, and his line drives are capable or shattering a glass window. Neither of them have much pop at all, but Renteria still has more.

A believe a 1st row HR counts the same as an upper deck HR. The end result is the same. There are no style points (see Winter Olympics ski jumping) in baseball.

Never underestimate the power of the glove at SS in MLB. Be nice to have the power of the glove and bat at SS for your fav team; however, I will take the glove before the bat everyday at SS. Also never underestimate the wear-n-tear on the body for a MLB shortstop. I invite all to check the career lengths of all Hall of Fame shortstops. See how long they lasted in the game. It is shocking.

Griffey012
06-29-2011, 08:41 AM
A believe a 1st row HR counts the same as an upper deck HR. The end result is the same. There are no style points (see Winter Olympics ski jumping) in baseball.

Never underestimate the power of the glove at SS in MLB. Be nice to have the power of the glove and bat at SS for your fav team; however, I will take the glove before the bat everyday at SS. Also never underestimate the wear-n-tear on the body for a MLB shortstop. I invite all to check the career lengths of all Hall of Fame shortstops. See how long they lasted in the game. It is shocking.

I am not saying a ground ball double down the line counts less than a double in the gap. An upper deck home run counts as much as a 1st row home run. A guy who hits home runs into the upper deck has more "pop" in his bat than someone who hits home runs into the first row. Which was my argument.

Not to continue and harp on Janish here, but does anyone else think his glove has become overrated on this board? Don't get me wrong, he plays good SS, but he doesn't amaze me with the glove like he did when he first came up with the Reds. And the way his glove is talked about you would think we had Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel on our team.

I don't get what the fear/harm is in letting Renteria get a crack at starting for 12/15 games, and see if he can take control of the position.

nate
06-29-2011, 11:18 AM
I am not saying a ground ball double down the line counts less than a double in the gap. An upper deck home run counts as much as a 1st row home run. A guy who hits home runs into the upper deck has more "pop" in his bat than someone who hits home runs into the first row. Which was my argument.

Not to continue and harp on Janish here, but does anyone else think his glove has become overrated on this board? Don't get me wrong, he plays good SS, but he doesn't amaze me with the glove like he did when he first came up with the Reds. And the way his glove is talked about you would think we had Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel on our team.

I don't get what the fear/harm is in letting Renteria get a crack at starting for 12/15 games, and see if he can take control of the position.

Me, myself, personally, finds his glove to be excellent and Renteria's to be not excellent. Given that neither's bat is excellent, I still think Janish nets out to be the better player. I'd rather have the better glove at a position that tends to see more defensive opportunities.

Hoosier Red
06-29-2011, 11:29 AM
Me, myself, personally, finds his glove to be excellent and Renteria's to be not excellent. Given that neither's bat is excellent, I still think Janish nets out to be the better player. I'd rather have the better glove at a position that tends to see more defensive opportunities.

I agree with nate. Griffey, I'm curious what you mean when you say let Edgar start for a 12 days and take charge of this team. I'm not sure what's to be gained by having someone else "in charge." But then again, I don't think there's a lack of effort or focus on the Reds, just a lack of results.

OnBaseMachine
06-29-2011, 11:34 AM
Me, myself, personally, finds his glove to be excellent and Renteria's to be not excellent. Given that neither's bat is excellent, I still think Janish nets out to be the better player. I'd rather have the better glove at a position that tends to see more defensive opportunities.

I agree with this. :thumbup:

lollipopcurve
06-29-2011, 11:53 AM
I thought Renteria looked pretty good last night. I'd give him some more playing time because I like the quality of his ABs, and his ability to battle tough pitchers, much better than what #2 generally offers.

Slyder
06-29-2011, 11:55 AM
Blitz, no offense but I would rather see Miguel Cairo at SS before I want Renteria getting any substantial at bats. They both would have similar defensive range (barely any) and Cairo might actually provide some value with the bat. Renteria needs to be jettisoned for this team to get anywhere with offense from the SS position. Whether that is by trade or by calling up Cozart.

_Sir_Charles_
06-29-2011, 12:24 PM
He's not an upgrade offensively? Whaaaaaat? Renteria's on-base percentage is .80 points higher than Janish's. C'mon man, if you are going to bring an argument to the table, don't say something absurd like Renteria is not an offensive upgrade over Janish. They hit for about the same average but Edgar actually knows how to take a walk once in a blue moon.

Honestly, it shouldn't matter though. Cozart should have been called up yesterday. Or last week.

No, he's not an upgrade offensively....at least not enough to justify the downgrade defensively. If we're going to make a change at short...it needs to be Cozart.

bucksfan2
06-29-2011, 12:28 PM
Janish isn't a MLB SS. He has been given plenty of time to prove that his bat isn't as weak as many have feared, but he hasn't. His defense is good, but quite a bit over rated by his defenders. I have grown tired of seeing two pitchers back to back in the batting lineup. I am all for giving Renteria one final shot. Give him a week to 10 days in order to see if his bat improves and if not DFA him.

Johnny Footstool
06-29-2011, 12:40 PM
Janish's glove basically cancels out his bat. He's replacement-level.

Renteria provides little more than nothing with bat or glove. He's replacement-level as well.

The best answer is to get Jose Reyes. He would have a real impact.

A slightly-better-than-treading-water option is JJ Hardy. He's probably worth a win or two over Janteria.

signalhome
06-29-2011, 02:04 PM
Janish's glove basically cancels out his bat. He's replacement-level.

Renteria provides little more than nothing with bat or glove. He's replacement-level as well.

The best answer is to get Jose Reyes. He would have a real impact.

A slightly-better-than-treading-water option is JJ Hardy. He's probably worth a win or two over Janteria.

I'd say Hardy is a little better than that, but otherwise I agree. Both are pretty equivalent right now, though as someone pointed out earlier, there's a very real possibility that Renteria's BB% comes back to his career level and kills his already-minuscule offensive value. The Reds really need to bring in another SS, whether it be Reyes, Hardy, Cozart, or whomever.

Johnny Footstool
06-29-2011, 02:16 PM
I'd say Hardy is a little better than that, but otherwise I agree.

He's about a 2 win player over the course of a full season. The Reds would only have him for half a season, so he's probably only going to garner 1 or 1.5 more wins.

signalhome
06-29-2011, 02:29 PM
He's about a 2 win player over the course of a full season. The Reds would only have him for half a season, so he's probably only going to garner 1 or 1.5 more wins.

His 2.5 WAR last year was in only 101 games, and he's playing much better than that this year. Offensively, he's even better than his 2007-2008 numbers (a career-high .393 wOBA this year, but it's being boosted a bit by a high BABIP). His defense has taken a hit this year (could easily just be variation, as half-season UZR isn't reliable), but he's been a 1.8 WAR player over 49 games, so I think it's within reason to say he could be a 2.0+ WAR player over the rest of the season were the Reds to acquire him right now. That 14% HR/FB ratio would play very well in GABP.

signalhome
06-29-2011, 08:12 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/330673/orioles-begin-extension-talks-with-jj-hardy

Doesn't look like Hardy's going anywhere. Baltimore wants to keep him.

Griffey012
06-29-2011, 08:38 PM
I agree with nate. Griffey, I'm curious what you mean when you say let Edgar start for a 12 days and take charge of this team. I'm not sure what's to be gained by having someone else "in charge." But then again, I don't think there's a lack of effort or focus on the Reds, just a lack of results.

I said take charge of the position. I did not intend to imply taking charge of the team, that is already said and done between guys like Rolen, Gomes, and Ramon. I meant taking charge of the SS position, as in separating himself as the majority starter due to increased production.

Griffey012
06-29-2011, 08:44 PM
Me, myself, personally, finds his glove to be excellent and Renteria's to be not excellent. Given that neither's bat is excellent, I still think Janish nets out to be the better player. I'd rather have the better glove at a position that tends to see more defensive opportunities.

Janish may very well net to be a better player due to what you just explained. I would just prefer to see Edgar given a stretch of starts with consistent AB's to see what he can do. I for one do not believe he has fallen off so fast that he is a .534 OPS guy, and if he can't get something going in that stretch then we can DFA him and bring Cozart into the mix.

Starting Edgar here and there, using him as a pinch hitter here and there, is not really a situation where we can read the whole story. For most all baseball players it is easier to hit well and get into a groove getting consistent AB's, especially for a guy like Edgar who has been a starter his whole career.

If Edgar can OPS .650 which is below what he did last year, and slightly above his worst season as a pro, then we have a clear upgrade at the position. If he fails, we have lost nothing, but at least gained some insight into what we have at the position.

nate
06-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Janish may very well net to be a better player due to what you just explained. I would just prefer to see Edgar given a stretch of starts with consistent AB's to see what he can do. I for one do not believe he has fallen off so fast that he is a .534 OPS guy, and if he can't get something going in that stretch then we can DFA him and bring Cozart into the mix.

Starting Edgar here and there, using him as a pinch hitter here and there, is not really a situation where we can read the whole story. For most all baseball players it is easier to hit well and get into a groove getting consistent AB's, especially for a guy like Edgar who has been a starter his whole career.

If Edgar can OPS .650 which is below what he did last year, and slightly above his worst season as a pro, then we have a clear upgrade at the position. If he fails, we have lost nothing, but at least gained some insight into what we have at the position.

In the last 365 days, Edgar has put up a cool .598 OPS.

In the last 365 days, Janish has put up a cool .610 OPS.

I think, going forward, Edgar could reasonably be expected to put up a .650 OPS.

I think, going forward, Janish, could reasonably be expected to put up a .610 OPS.

So here's the question: if those two projections are acceptable, is .040 of OPS > the difference between Janish's glove and Renteria's.

PuffyPig
06-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Considering that Renteria may well be the worse player in all of baseball, Janish is the better choice between the two.

Renteria has zero range.

Griffey012
06-29-2011, 11:20 PM
In the last 365 days, Edgar has put up a cool .598 OPS.

In the last 365 days, Janish has put up a cool .610 OPS.

I think, going forward, Edgar could reasonably be expected to put up a .650 OPS.

I think, going forward, Janish, could reasonably be expected to put up a .610 OPS.

So here's the question: if those two projections are acceptable, is .040 of OPS > the difference between Janish's glove and Renteria's.

If the projections are acceptable then yes Janish is fine in the field. If Janish were OPS'ing .610 this wouldn't even be a discussion right now. The problem is I am not sold Janish can OPS .610 as a starter, and I am not sold Renteria can OPS .650. But my argument is is that Janish has flopped at his chance to OPS .610 and take the job to himself. Renteria has not really had a chance to OPS .650 as the SS and possibly take the job.

Ron Madden
06-30-2011, 05:20 AM
Paul Janish may never become a threat with the bat but he has one hell of an arm and can play good defense at SS, 3B & 2B.

Edgar Renteria is no longer a threat at the plate, he has a noodle arm, he only plays one position and he's not very good at that.

Blitz Dorsey
06-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Hey, like I said, I want Cozart up here ASAP. But given the choice of Renteria and Janish, give me the guy who can hold his own defensively ... yet isn't a complete dud at the plate. Janish is just an inning killer anytime he steps to the dish. You can just feel it. Has no clue how to work the count, swings at bad pitches, takes pitches right down the middle (er, sorry, "right down Broadway") never walks, rarely hits the ball out of the infield, no speed.

Homer Bailey
06-30-2011, 10:55 AM
Hey, like I said, I want Cozart up here ASAP. But given the choice of Renteria and Janish, give me the guy who can hold his own defensively ... yet isn't a complete dud at the plate. Janish is just an inning killer anytime he steps to the dish. You can just feel it. Has no clue how to work the count, swings at bad pitches, takes pitches right down the middle (er, sorry, "right down Broadway") never walks, rarely hits the ball out of the infield, no speed.

Give me that guy as well.

Problem is, that guy is not Edgar Renteria.

Blitz Dorsey
06-30-2011, 11:03 AM
Give me that guy as well.

Problem is, that guy is not Edgar Renteria.

Well, let's just call up Cozart and be done with it. I'm tired of arguing the merits of a mediocre/washed up SS (Renteria) and a bad SS (Janish). Not bad defensively in Janish's case, but he's also not the defensive wizard some make him out to be. He's very good defensively, but his atrocious hitting more than trumps his very good glove and makes him a bad overall player IMO.

Cozart, Cozart, Cozart. (But watch this guy bat about .180 and make a ton of errors once they finally call him up. Wouldn't that be our luck this season. But seriously, Cozart could honestly play bad for his standards and would still be an upgrade over Renteria/Janish.)

Homer Bailey
06-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Well, let's just call up Cozart and be done with it. I'm tired of arguing the merits of a mediocre/washed up SS (Renteria) and a bad SS (Janish). Not bad defensively in Janish's case, but he's also not the defensive wizard some make him out to be. He's very good defensively, but his atrocious hitting more than trumps his very good glove and makes him a bad overall player IMO.

Cozart, Cozart, Cozart. (But watch this guy bat about .180 and make a ton of errors once they finally call him up. Wouldn't that be our luck this season. But seriously, Cozart could honestly play bad for his standards and would still be an upgrade over Renteria/Janish.)

Then why did you start another Janish vs. Renteria thread?

PuffyPig
06-30-2011, 11:39 AM
I'm tired of arguing the merits of a mediocre/washed up SS (Renteria).......

Yet you started a thread which stated you wanted to make him our everyday SS?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

I(heart)Freel
07-04-2011, 05:09 PM
This thread ended with a thud, but I'm giving it bump because giving Edgar the majority (or simply more) of the starts appears to be EXACTLY what the FO/Dusty has decided to do. His start tonight makes 4 of the last 6 starts at SS.

One last chance for the in-house candidates to step up?

reds44
07-04-2011, 05:50 PM
It's. About. Time.

This is long overdue.

Blitz Dorsey
07-04-2011, 08:06 PM
Yep, I'm glad Walt and Dusty are listening to my advice these days.

Now about making Chapman a starter...

membengal
07-04-2011, 09:37 PM
Whatever happens, I hope Walt does nothing. This team is perfect just the way it is.