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View Full Version : When does it become a Coaching/Managing thing?



mrherd05
07-03-2011, 01:34 PM
Ok, at what point does the over aggressive swinging, and the home runs on two strikes go from a player Eff up to bad coaching/managing.

Seriously.

An 0 - 2 pitch is supposed to be either in the dirt or in their ear.

This crap is happening too often to be player mistakes.

NatiWolfpack24
07-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Why do people always want to blame a guy who is pulling minimal strings? In sports like football and basketball coaches can take a far larger blame than managers in baseball. Pointing fingers at Dusty or anyone else who isn't putting on a glove or swinging a bat is silly. Players still have to perform. A good chunk of them haven't this year.

mrherd05
07-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Simple question.

If your pitchers are notorious at giving up home runs with an 0 - 2 or 1- 2 count, is anything being done about it?

If it only happened a few times, then ok. But it is happening day in and day out.

Now, if a pitcher was just getting torched and that was it, then, i agree, no need to rip on the manager. If walks were putting the guys in those positions, then ok, i blame the player, not the manager.

But this is just a question. When do you yank a Mike Leake off to the side and say, "dude, wtf?"

NatiWolfpack24
07-03-2011, 03:48 PM
My point is you aren't in the clubhouse. You aren't involved in the day to day operations. You don't know what is or had been said so it's tough to gauge/judge. A manager can say all the right things but it doesn't mean a damn thing if the players aren't doing them. Personally I think our problems if you want to call them that still stem from inexperience and the averages catching up to us. We're a talented team but we still need a few pieces. Problem is everyone thinks we're the Yankees and can just go out and get whoever we want. Not how it works for a small market team.

Vottomatic
07-03-2011, 05:00 PM
When?

They should have never hired Dusty. He's terrible. This team won despite him last year and you're seeing the lackadaisical play that happens under his undisciplined managing.

He's had more than a ton of talent everywhere he's managed, and those teams won despite him too.

Stray
07-03-2011, 05:08 PM
Yeah I thought everyone had it figured out by now. When the Reds win it's despite Dusty and when we lose it is Dusty's fault.

It really is quite remarkable how he does it, he's able to ONLY leave his fingerprint on the games that we lose. Better yet, like a blind squirrel he's fumbled his way into around 1500 wins!

NatiWolfpack24
07-03-2011, 05:23 PM
When?

They should have never hired Dusty. He's terrible. This team won despite him last year and you're seeing the lackadaisical play that happens under his undisciplined managing.

He's had more than a ton of talent everywhere he's managed, and those teams won despite him too.

If you think Dusty is the problem then you haven't played a legit game of baseball in your life. Baseball is the sport where the manager deserves the least of the blame. Try watching a sport where a coach actually has an impact and then come talk to me.

mrherd05
07-03-2011, 05:48 PM
Still no one has answered the question, that should be answered.

When you see the same problems happen over and over and over and over again, how is that not a question of the manager?

BluegrassRedleg
07-03-2011, 06:00 PM
Why do people always want to blame a guy who is pulling minimal strings? In sports like football and basketball coaches can take a far larger blame than managers in baseball. Pointing fingers at Dusty or anyone else who isn't putting on a glove or swinging a bat is silly. Players still have to perform. A good chunk of them haven't this year.

I agree with you. Outside of arguably being too loyal to guys and hanging with them through horrible droughts, it's not on Dusty. You can also argue that the FO doesn't have its best 25 guys active, but ultimately players have to make plays.

However, I do question the system somewhat when I see a guy with as much raw, physical talent as Drew Stubbs wasting so many ABs. A guy that fast who doesn't know how to bunt and is on a epic pace for Ks is unspeakable.

DocRed
07-03-2011, 06:18 PM
If you think Dusty is the problem then you haven't played a legit game of baseball in your life. Baseball is the sport where the manager deserves the least of the blame. Try watching a sport where a coach actually has an impact and then come talk to me.

While I agree a baseball manager has less to do with the success of the team than most sports, I think you are slightly underestimating the impact they can have in situations and they must also be accountable when the team plays poorly.

Vottomatic
07-03-2011, 06:21 PM
If you think Dusty is the problem then you haven't played a legit game of baseball in your life. Baseball is the sport where the manager deserves the least of the blame. Try watching a sport where a coach actually has an impact and then come talk to me.

I played football, baseball, and basketball most of my life and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.

Dusty is terrible and a huge part of the problem. But keep your head in the sand.

BAKER12
07-03-2011, 08:07 PM
When?

They should have never hired Dusty. He's terrible. This team won despite him last year and you're seeing the lackadaisical play that happens under his undisciplined managing.

He's had more than a ton of talent everywhere he's managed, and those teams won despite him too.

Here we go again!
Since you obviously have all the answers and insight please clear up some questions I have:
How do you define who is a good manager and who is not?
How many Hall Of Famers has Dusty managed?
Who should the Reds have hired?
What is undisciplined managing?
How are the Reds lackadaisical?

NatiWolfpack24
07-03-2011, 08:26 PM
I played football, baseball, and basketball most of my life and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.

Dusty is terrible and a huge part of the problem. But keep your head in the sand.

You've forgotten more than I have ever known? :laugh: I love people like you who talk trash but are posting on a forum. I won't brag about the many sports I played growing up. I try not to justify my thoughts through such garbage. Hell anyone can ride the pine. I'll refrain from bragging on stats from my childhood days. I grew up. Mr. Vottomatic didn't.

I'm bred from a family of coaches buddy. I suggest you spew your BS to someone else.

mrherd05
07-03-2011, 08:31 PM
So, just so I get how the game is played on this Reds forum.

Its ok for Natiwolfpack to brag about his "past" sports relations since he was "bred" from a family of coaches.

But it is NOT ok for Vottomatic to brag about his past of playing multiple sports.

Gotcha.

DocRed
07-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Sometimes I think RedsZone would be best served by creating 2 more forums....Dusty supporters and Dusty haters. ;)

Plus Plus
07-03-2011, 08:55 PM
A word of advice: posting little attacks on one another is a great way to get threads closed and users reprimanded. I strongly suggest that those involved in this thread relax and that if you want to further argue about this material, take it privately immediately.

...now back to the subject at hand.

NatiWolfpack24
07-03-2011, 09:06 PM
OK plus plus but are you going to consistently deal with members who bash the hell out of the team after every loss? I think behavior like that is completely unacceptable but it is allowed around here. Bashing athletes we don't even know, cool forum. Might as well call it Arm Chair Reds Forum! Member of plenty of forums that allow banter like this back and forth. Do you guys just allow trashing of our players with no rebuttal? Like I said cool forum! Glad to know you guys' priorities are straight.

You telling me to defend my favorite team privately is a joke. This is America and yet freedom of speech isn't present here? Lame.

Vottomatic
07-03-2011, 09:21 PM
You've forgotten more than I have ever known? :laugh: I love people like you who talk trash but are posting on a forum. I won't brag about the many sports I played growing up. I try not to justify my thoughts through such garbage. Hell anyone can ride the pine. I'll refrain from bragging on stats from my childhood days. I grew up. Mr. Vottomatic didn't.

I'm bred from a family of coaches buddy. I suggest you spew your BS to someone else.

Funny stuff. You started it with all your you know more than us. I was just giving you some of your own medicine.

Like you said. I love people who come on message boards and can say whatever they want, and pretend to be whoever they want.

mrherd05
07-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Are you serious? Did I really get a post deleted?

Vottomatic
07-03-2011, 10:21 PM
This board is getting so hostile.

All the "know it alls" are making it no fun anymore.

Plus Plus
07-03-2011, 11:17 PM
A few things before my final warning in this thread.

1) If you have a problem with a person, let them know. This includes any problems you may have with moderators (NatiWolfpack).

2) When a moderator (read: me) says to stop attacking one another, that is a cue to promptly stop, not to get one last lick in before you stop. That is why posts have been edited and deleted.

3) If you don't understand why certain actions (including post deletion and warnings/infractions) occur, then I recommend that you read the rules at the bottom of the page before posting further.

4) While the United States of America is a free country, a privately owned web domain is not automatically an "anything goes" location. If you feel that RedsZone doesn't fit your needs or interests as a Reds fan, then there are a myriad of boards on Reds.com, mlb.com, or espn.com that might be of interest.

5) This WILL be the final warning before significant action is taken, and this does not apply solely to this thread. We want this website to be a family friendly place for discussion about the Reds. If a poster bemoans the performance of a player with a statement like "xxx sucks," then instead of harassing them with personal attacks, post a reason why you disagree with them, or move on to another thread.

If any of you who have been involved in this small tiff have an issue with this, send me a PM with your feelings rather than posting them here. I will be more than happy to discuss any matters with any of you.

PP