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View Full Version : Cozart and Fisher called up, Janish and Volquez to AAA



cinreds21
07-07-2011, 05:52 AM
It has finally happened ladies and gentlemen.

camisadelgolf
07-07-2011, 06:04 AM
Corresponding move?

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 06:05 AM
I don't know.

mth123
07-07-2011, 06:14 AM
Corresponding move?

My guess, Volquez for now. Janish down Sunday with Willis making the start. Again, just a guess.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 06:42 AM
This thread is sure to be 100 replies by noon.

Degenerate39
07-07-2011, 06:53 AM
Thank the maker

LvJ
07-07-2011, 06:54 AM
Please DFA Edgar.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 06:57 AM
I suppose Walt really didn't want asked the question again lol

RedLegsToday
07-07-2011, 06:58 AM
Yep, now they call him up. While he is in a bit of a slump. S-M-R-T Smart!

Anyway, Cozart in a batting slump is better than a hot Janish, so, congrats Zack! Now, save the Reds season! ;)

Redhook
07-07-2011, 07:05 AM
This actually p****s me off a bit because it should've been done over a month ago. So many wasted at-bats for absolutely no reason at all. Thanks for nothing Walt.

thatcoolguy_22
07-07-2011, 07:15 AM
FIRE!!

YouTube - ‪Scrubs: Dr. Cox Epic Maneuver‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_k2MhlmV0)

traderumor
07-07-2011, 07:32 AM
I'm guessing Janish to AAA. He just hasn't been getting the job done.

cumberlandreds
07-07-2011, 07:33 AM
I'm guessing Janish to AAA. He just hasn't been getting the job done.

That would be my guess too. Renteria has been hitting a wee bit better lately and I can't see the Reds cutting a vet at this point.

PuffyPig
07-07-2011, 07:39 AM
I doubt that the Reds will risk losing Janish. If he has to clear options, is it recallable if he gets claimed?

I'd rather Renteria be DFA'ed.

thatcoolguy_22
07-07-2011, 07:42 AM
That would be my guess too. Renteria has been hitting a wee bit better lately and I can't see the Reds cutting a vet at this point.

Probably will be Janish. This move is a little late for my tastes, but I'm glad to see Cozart getting the call up. Hopefully he can perform better than his last 10 or so predecessors...

What are the chances its Volquez sent down and the Reds keep both PJ and Edgar on the active? :eek:

edabbs44
07-07-2011, 07:43 AM
I doubt that the Reds will risk losing Janish. If he has to clear options, is it recallable if he gets claimed?

I'd rather Renteria be DFA'ed.

I'd rather have Renteria as an option than going to battle with Janish and an unknown with zero net.

OesterPoster
07-07-2011, 08:00 AM
I'd rather have Renteria as an option than going to battle with Janish and an unknown with zero net.

Same here. I think Renteria, if used properly, is a good RH option off the bench late in a game.

And FWIW, I was in the Janish camp to start the year.

MikeS21
07-07-2011, 08:02 AM
Probably the better question ought to be whether or not Cozart is going to sit on the bench or play.

If he is coming up just so he can be the back-up, then this is a dumb move.

redsmetz
07-07-2011, 08:13 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there a published source for this move?

klw
07-07-2011, 08:14 AM
Dusty never starts someone in their first game after a callup so don't be surprised to see him on the bench for game 1. I also think there will be another move to bring up Willis so there is a fresh arm in the pen tonight. Volquez or someone else down even if it is an only through the break type move would make sense.

OldXOhio
07-07-2011, 08:25 AM
Baby steps people. Just getting the kid up here has been a monumental task.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 08:32 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there a published source for this move?

Nope.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 08:33 AM
I just had my second confirmation.

bucksfan2
07-07-2011, 08:36 AM
I just had my second confirmation.

You missed April Fools by about 3 months!

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 08:38 AM
You missed April Fools by about 3 months!

Trust me on this. By now y'all should, anyway.

klw
07-07-2011, 08:38 AM
I just had my second confirmation.

I didn't know you were Catholic!

http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot

medford
07-07-2011, 08:42 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there a published source for this move?

In all honesty, cinreds21 is as good as a published source in the case of player transactions coming up or within the minors. Actually, he's probably a better source than someone like John Fay is many cases.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 08:44 AM
In all honesty, cinreds21 is as good as a published source in the case of player transactions coming up or within the minors. Actually, he's probably a better source than someone like John Fay is many cases.

I appreciate that. Thank you :)

kaldaniels
07-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Yep, a round of applause for cinreds21.

PuffyPig
07-07-2011, 08:53 AM
I'd rather have Renteria as an option than going to battle with Janish and an unknown with zero net.

I don't disagree, my comment was based on if the option was to lose Janish.

I'm fine with Janish going down if he clears waivers.

HotCorner
07-07-2011, 08:54 AM
I'm walking around in a daze right now. Did this really happen? Is this real life? ;)

Redsfan320
07-07-2011, 08:57 AM
Awesome! Thanks for letting us know, 21!

320

Chip R
07-07-2011, 08:59 AM
In all honesty, cinreds21 is as good as a published source in the case of player transactions coming up or within the minors. Actually, he's probably a better source than someone like John Fay is many cases.

I'm sure he is but until it's confirmed by the media it's still a rumor. We used to require an actual link before posting something like this.

Kc61
07-07-2011, 09:07 AM
If it's true I wonder if this is just a pre All Star game roster manipulation for a few days.

Send down somebody for some AAA reps for ten days, bring them back next week after the ASG.

My guess is it involves Janish. He hasn't been starting too much lately, my guess is he will get the AAA reps. Renteria is playing ok lately.

Whether the Reds really intend to give Cozart a full trial will be interesting to see.

redsmetz
07-07-2011, 09:08 AM
I'm sure he is but until it's confirmed by the media it's still a rumor. We used to require an actual link before posting something like this.

Perhaps we're quibbling, but at the very least, I think it's helpful that some sort of qualifier be included in the initial post. After all, we just went through a lengthy thread of a moving being made that finally became a whole thread about a non-move. Again, I appreciate that 21 has some good sources, but it should be note as such until confirmed, IMHO.

Chip R
07-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Perhaps we're quibbling, but at the very least, I think it's helpful that some sort of qualifier be included in the initial post. After all, we just went through a lengthy thread of a moving being made that finally became a whole thread about a non-move. Again, I appreciate that 21 has some good sources, but it should be note as such until confirmed, IMHO.

I think we are in full agreement.

I(heart)Freel
07-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Fay is saying on Twitter that he's pretty sure Willis is up today as well.


Thinking about what Jocketty said. Didnt rule out moves before break. That & Willis not pitching leads me believe could a move or two today.

Should be interesting next few hours. Hope Walt/Dusty got a few Z's on the puddlejumper.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 09:23 AM
Perhaps we're quibbling, but at the very least, I think it's helpful that some sort of qualifier be included in the initial post. After all, we just went through a lengthy thread of a moving being made that finally became a whole thread about a non-move. Again, I appreciate that 21 has some good sources, but it should be note as such until confirmed, IMHO.

I understand everyone's hesitation. However, Fay and Co like to "report" their feelings. I'm not saying that you don't believe me, and again I fully understand this caution.

Big Klu
07-07-2011, 09:38 AM
Same here. I think Renteria, if used properly, is a good RH option off the bench late in a game.

And FWIW, I was in the Janish camp to start the year.

I read in another thread that Renteria has an .890 OPS vs. LHP.

pahster
07-07-2011, 09:47 AM
I read in another thread that Renteria has an .890 OPS vs. LHP.

He does... in 25 plate appearances. :)

CySeymour
07-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Thinking along with Dusty (yeah, I know, that's dangerous), sending Janish down and keeping Renteria is they type of move Dusty would push for. I am thinking his argument would be he would want the vet Edgar around to show the rookie the ropes of playing shortstop in the big leagues.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2011, 10:01 AM
I think they'll tuck Cozart behind Renteria for a while, giving Edgar more starts. Cozart will play, I think, but he'll be eased in.

Tony Cloninger
07-07-2011, 10:18 AM
I appreciate that. Thank you :)


Sooo.... you are the Deep Throat of Redszone then? Nice to meet you.

Tony Cloninger
07-07-2011, 10:21 AM
If it's true I wonder if this is just a pre All Star game roster manipulation for a few days.

Send down somebody for some AAA reps for ten days, bring them back next week after the ASG.

My guess is it involves Janish. He hasn't been starting too much lately, my guess is he will get the AAA reps. Renteria is playing ok lately.

Whether the Reds really intend to give Cozart a full trial will be interesting to see.


I would hope they are doing this with an eye to seeing what he can do and giving him chances to do so....not some appeasement of the fan base. I hope he gets off to a good start or else Dusty will not trust him to do much of anything. Not that it would be fair but it is what I am sure Dusty will be thinking.

Homer Bailey
07-07-2011, 10:33 AM
A Zack Cozart is registered at #Reds team hotel. Could be ad odd coincidence, I suppose. #reds

Fay

reds44
07-07-2011, 10:37 AM
THANK YOU LORD!!!

Gotta assume Janish is being sent to AAA.

Sea Ray
07-07-2011, 10:37 AM
Janish should be nervous about now

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 10:38 AM
Janish should be nervous about now

I am sure Janish knows whether or not he was moved by this point.

reds44
07-07-2011, 10:39 AM
I knew Walt wasn't as dumb as he was acting.

OesterPoster
07-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Quote:
A Zack Cozart is registered at #Reds team hotel. Could be ad odd coincidence, I suppose. #reds
Fay Fay

I'm laughing at this, trying to envision how Fay came to this knowledge. Did he bribe the front desk clerk? I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to release information about guest names, etc.

I(heart)Freel
07-07-2011, 10:46 AM
I'm laughing at this, trying to envision how Fay came to this knowledge. Did he bribe the front desk clerk? I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to release information about guest names, etc.

Old reporter trick... just call the hotel front desk and ask for a Zack Cozart. (You, of course, act like you know they're already checked in.) If they say, I'll transfer you now, you know they're there. Bingo.

Redlegs
07-07-2011, 10:52 AM
I was in Janish's corner from day one, but he clearly has proven he's not an everyday starting shortstop in the big leagues. His bat is just too much of a liability and his defense has always been what he could hang his hat on, but it has slipped too.

redsmetz
07-07-2011, 10:54 AM
I would hope they are doing this with an eye to seeing what he can do and giving him chances to do so....not some appeasement of the fan base. I hope he gets off to a good start or else Dusty will not trust him to do much of anything. Not that it would be fair but it is what I am sure Dusty will be thinking.

Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.

reds44
07-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.
He abuses young starting pitchers too don't you know?

Redlegs
07-07-2011, 10:57 AM
Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.

Yes. And everywhere else he's gone. Dusty's loyal to his players. Too loyal sometimes. Batting Ken Griffey, Jr. 3rd in the lineup is a prime example. As soon as he was dealt to the White Sox, he was dropped to 7th.

Redlegs
07-07-2011, 10:59 AM
He abuses young starting pitchers too don't you know?If folks look deep enough into it, they'll see he's responsible for Adam Wainwright's injury also. :laugh:

reds44
07-07-2011, 11:00 AM
If folks look deep enough into it, they'll see he's responsible for Adam Wainwright's injury also. :laugh:
How will Chris Car......nevermind.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 11:01 AM
I'm laughing at this, trying to envision how Fay came to this knowledge. Did he bribe the front desk clerk? I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to release information about guest names, etc.

Brutal. I'm better than that lol. I'm kinda impressed with Fay lol

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.

Exactly Dusty is extremely patient.. Janish, Volquez, Wood, Bruce, Stubbs, Jordan Smith.. all cases in point. If anything, Dusty is TOO patient with youngsters. Not that I am complaining, most of the time, he's right.

I want Janish sent down. Does anyone honestly think it would be a huge loss if another club claimed him? Renturia is more valuable. Janish is almost totally useless.. He's a Juan Castro (the older version of Juan that was overrated defensively and could not hit his way out of a paper bag).

Big Klu
07-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Yes. And everywhere else he's gone. Dusty's loyal to his players. Too loyal sometimes. Batting Ken Griffey, Jr. 3rd in the lineup is a prime example. As soon as he was dealt to the White Sox, he was dropped to 7th.

Yeah, but Ozzie played Griffey in CF.

Tony Cloninger
07-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.


You think he will trust a rookie SS....unless he shows right away he can do something....and not start Renteria more until he does?

I know he is not against working in younger players...in this case, SS is a very important position,.

OldXOhio
07-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Janish should be nervous about now

Who knows at this point. There's also been some chatter that ER is being DFA'd.

OnBaseMachine
07-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Interesting...some dude on twitter is saying Renteria is getting DFA'd to make room for Cozart. He tweeted this yesterday:

@johnfayman @CarolinaMudcats //This just in Renteria DFA, Cozart is getting the call.

@johnfayman @JosephKolks //No to 3 - SS, decision was made yesterday before game to call up Cozart & DFA Renteria.

And then tweeted this a few minutes ago:

@johnfayman //No coincidence, like I told you yesterday the decision was made yesterday before game to call up Cozart & DFA Renteria

http://twitter.com/JohnnySmith28

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Do I get an award? Lol just kidding. It's what I do :)

CySeymour
07-07-2011, 11:35 AM
Interesting...some dude on twitter is saying Renteria is getting DFA'd to make room for Cozart. He tweeted this yesterday:


I saw that too, OBM. Anyone have any idea who this Johnny Smith guy is?

Caveat Emperor
07-07-2011, 11:37 AM
I saw that too, OBM. Anyone have any idea who this Johnny Smith guy is?

John Smith -- sounds rather pseudonym-y to me.

Slyder
07-07-2011, 11:40 AM
If they were going to DFA Renteria then how could he get the start yesterday? Good to see Cozart finally get a call, now to see how/when Dusty will use him. Gets rid of one of the toys for Dusty to misuse though regardless.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-07-2011, 11:58 AM
If they were going to DFA Renteria then how could he get the start yesterday? Good to see Cozart finally get a call, now to see how/when Dusty will use him. Gets rid of one of the toys for Dusty to misuse though regardless.

I agree ... I can't see how they'd start Renteria knowing they would DFA him after the game. And Edgar went out and got a big hit in the first after the Heisey HR to keep the rally going.

Add in a pair of horrific at-bats by Janish in extra innings, and I can't see how it's Edgar that's the SS to go.

Bob Borkowski
07-07-2011, 12:07 PM
This thread is sure to be 100 replies by noon.

Nope, only 68...but over 4,000 views. :)

reds44
07-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying they won't DFA Renteria, but there's no way they decided to do it before the game and then started him.

I know this is an unpopular opinon, but I'd keep Edgar and send down Janish.

westofyou
07-07-2011, 12:14 PM
Nope, only 68...but over 4,000 views. :)

Only 9:14 am here

Eric_the_Red
07-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying they won't DFA Renteria, but there's no way they decided to do it before the game and then started him.

I know this is an unpopular opinon, but I'd keep Edgar and send down Janish.

Agreed. Janish's defense does not offset his weak hitting, IMO. I'd rather have a bat off the bench than a glove (assuming Cozart gets the starts).

Bob Borkowski
07-07-2011, 12:18 PM
Only 9:14 am here

Touche. :)

klw
07-07-2011, 12:20 PM
"Johnny Smith's" "update"
http://twitter.com/#!/JohnnySmith28


@johnfayman //The Cozart part is done as of yesterday, the Renteria part is causing tension within. Could be interesting...

reds44
07-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Who the hell is Johnny Smith? ahahaha

VR
07-07-2011, 12:26 PM
Who the hell is Johnny Smith? ahahaha

Some relation to Paul Janish?

medford
07-07-2011, 12:27 PM
Some relation to Paul Janish?

So does he pronounce his name Yah-ney Smyth then?

VR
07-07-2011, 12:34 PM
So does he pronounce his name Yah-ney Smyth then?

nice

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm lost about this Smith guy. Oh well.

OesterPoster
07-07-2011, 12:41 PM
I'm lost about this Smith guy. Oh well.

Might be a clubhouse attendant trying to figure out whose name to un-sew from a jersey. :)

Ron Madden
07-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Yonder Alonso tweets that Cozart got called up.

http://twitter.com/#%21/YonderalonsoU

traderumor
07-07-2011, 12:43 PM
@johnfayman //The Cozart part is done as of yesterday, the Renteria part is causing tension within. Could be interesting...So he's constipated?

mdccclxix
07-07-2011, 12:52 PM
7. Zack Cozart, SS
DOB: 8/12/85
Height/Weight: 6-0/195
Bats/Throws: R/R
Drafted/Signed: Second round, 2007, University of Mississippi
2010 Stats: .255/.310/.416 at Triple-A (136 G)
Best/Worst Tool: Glove/hit

Year in Review: The former second-round pick continued to move up the ladder, reaching the penultimate run while delivering a solid year at Triple-A.
The Good: Cozart has a rare set of skills for a middle infielder. He has at least average power, slugging 17 home runs in 2010, but he's also an above-average baserunner, stealing 30 bases. He also has outstanding defensive fundamentals, with extremely soft hands and a solid arm.
The Bad: Cozart is neither an adept or patient hitter, so he'll likely always have low batting averages and OBPs. He's a low-error shortstop in the mold of an older Derek Jeter or Cal Ripken, in that he makes the play on every ball he gets to, but his range is average at best.
Ephemera: While the University of Mississippi has produced well over 100 draft picks, only six have hit home runs in the big leagues, with David Dellucci's 101 homers topping the field.
Perfect World Projection: A solid but unspectacular everyday shortstop.
Fantasy Impact: You'll get good home run and stolen base numbers for a shortstop from him, but his batting average is going to hurt you.
Path to the Big Leagues: Cozart will get a long look this spring, but he's most likely returning to Triple-A to begin the year.
ETA: 2011

-From BP

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 12:56 PM
I am not going to be happy if Janish is spared..
Why in the world would they keep him? As others said, at least Renturia is a bat off the bench and sort of a "Safety net" for Cozart.

Janish is not a safety net.. his floor is pretty much unlimited. Time to "show him the door" :)

Ron Madden
07-07-2011, 01:00 PM
I am not going to be happy if Janish is spared..
Why in the world would they keep him? As others said, at least Renturia is a bat off the bench and sort of a "Safety net" for Cozart.

Janish is not a safety net.. his floor is pretty much unlimited. Time to "show him the door" :)

Janish is more versatile, he can play SS,2B and 3B. Renteria will only play SS.

Roy Tucker
07-07-2011, 01:01 PM
Quite the little firestorm here.

But c'mon folks, we're talking about a fair-to-middling AAA SS getting called up to replace either another SS of his ilk or another SS who's over hill. Hardly time for dancing in the streets. A positive move, yes, but a really small one.

RichRed
07-07-2011, 01:04 PM
quite the little firestorm here.

But c'mon folks, we're talking about a fair-to-middling aaa ss getting called up to replace either another ss of his ilk or another ss who's over hill. Hardly time for dancing in the streets. A positive move, yes, but a really small one.

Every move is huge!!!!!

reds44
07-07-2011, 01:09 PM
When you call up a kid who is OPSing .825 or whatever it was in the minors to replace a SS duo OPSing in the low .500's and who have made nearly 20 errors already, it's a big deal.

cumberlandreds
07-07-2011, 01:14 PM
Janish is more versatile, he can play SS,2B and 3B. Renteria will only play SS.

That's what I thought about too. It would give Dusty a little more flexibilty in late inning moves. I would bet too that Renteria's refusal to play third went over like a lead balloon. Especially in the front office. Just guessing, but I would say Renteria said he would play any position before signing but when asked to actually play third he balked at it.

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 01:15 PM
Janish is more versatile, he can play SS,2B and 3B. Renteria will only play SS.

Cario can cover 3b and 2b better than Janish can.

reds44
07-07-2011, 01:17 PM
Are the Reds ever going to take Rolen or Phillips out for Janish late in games? That'd be a no.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2011, 01:22 PM
I see no logic in casting off Renteria when they could option Janish to Louisville. Other than they'd be hoping they could get someone to pay some of Renteria's salary.....

Roy Tucker
07-07-2011, 01:24 PM
When you call up a kid who is OPSing .825 or whatever it was in the minors to replace a SS duo OPSing in the low .500's and who have made nearly 20 errors already, it's a big deal.



Hey, I hope he makes a big splash and he is a mainstay in the Reds' big winning streak. But if I had to bet cash money, I'd bet on maybe a little incremental change.

"I sometimes think that the saving grace of America lies in the fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans are possessed of two great qualities- a sense of humor and a sense of proportion."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

CrackerJack
07-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Something about the look on Janish's face and his body language after his last AB, last night, said "I'm doomed." I do remember that, he looked really dejected.

Then again, I remember seeing Edgar with no hat on and a warm-up jacket sitting next to Dusty last night in the dugout.

reds44
07-07-2011, 01:30 PM
jimcallisBA Tweeted about him earlier. Solid regular, better than Janish or Renteria. About time #Reds called him up. @nburzych: Zack Cozart thoughts?

Guacarock
07-07-2011, 01:31 PM
Are the Reds ever going to take Rolen or Phillips out for Janish late in games? That'd be a no.

An injury occurs to Phillips or Rolen, and yes, they could be removed for Janish. True, Cairo can play both positions, but let's say Rolen gets injured late in a game after Cairo already has PH. Then, who ya gonna call? If you've got a defensively slick, versatile utility infielder like Janish on the bench, it's a no brainer what happens next. But if you got Renteria on the bench, you're better off calling Ghostbusters.

mattfeet
07-07-2011, 01:33 PM
From Dontrelle Willis:

D_Train35 Dontrelle Willis
Come to park and see Cozart's locker empty and i was juiced!!! Congrads to Zach and the Cozart family.#reds#flocka

reds44
07-07-2011, 01:34 PM
An injury occurs to Phillips or Rolen, and yes, they could be removed for Janish. True, Cairo can play both positions, but let's say Rolen gets injured late in a game after Cairo already has PH. Then, who ya gonna call? If you've got a defensively slick, versatile utility infielder like Janish on the bench, it's a no brainer what happens next. But if you got Renteria on the bench, you're better off calling Ghostbusters.
The odds of what you just said happening is very slim. I'd rather have Renteria who at least will give you a competent AB when called to PH off the bench. Plus you can always can always call Janish back up.

PuffyPig
07-07-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't want Renteria on the bench becuase he may play as a regular occasionally or more.

His range is that bad.

The Voice of IH
07-07-2011, 01:40 PM
What I miss folks, Cozart up, who down?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
I don't want Janish anywhere near the Reds' bat rack anymore. I've seen quite enough. And if Janish stays, Dusty's loyalty will keep writing his name on the lineup card.

klw
07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
What I miss folks, Cozart up, who down?

No corresponding move has been confirmed.

The Voice of IH
07-07-2011, 01:49 PM
No corresponding move has been confirmed.

Oh ok thanks.

mattfeet
07-07-2011, 01:52 PM
John Fay just confirmed Cozart is in Milwaukee.

-Matt

The Voice of IH
07-07-2011, 01:52 PM
John Fay just confirmed Cozart is in Milwaukee.

-Matt

Psssssssssh 10 minuets ago ;)

:laugh:

RedsManRick
07-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Why do people continue to persist in this belief about Baker? With rare exception in his tenure with the Reds, he has been incredibly patient with young players. In fact, again not without exception, it's practically been the hallmark of his managerial stint here.

I think the issue is more nuanced. I think it stems from Dusty's well-established tendency to view players based on well-defined, traditional roles rather than as individuals with unique skill sets. Once a player is slotted in to a role, the onus is on the player to force Dusty to reconsider. In short, Dusty is subject to strong confirmation bias -- and it cuts both directions.

On top of this, Dusty has 2 basic dimensions, proven (older) vs. unproven (younger) and starter/bench forming 4 buckets in to which players can be placed:
- Proven starter
- Proven bench
- Unproven starter
- Unproven bench

For young, unproven players who are expected to be everyday players, like Bruce or Stubbs, Dusty has no problem giving them ample opportunity to succeed and giving them the benefit of the doubt when they struggle. He may handle them with a bit more care than a proven vet, but they have plenty of rope to work with. They are starters until they prove that they are not.

For young, unproven players who are seen as bench guys, those without a pedigree or who are clearly behind a proven vet on the depth chart (guys like Janish and Heisey), they have a much tougher road to hoe. In some ways, Dusty presents these guys with a double-standard. Until they perform like everyday players, they won't be given a shot to play everyday. And performing well in spot duty is tough to do. And if they are given a shot to play everyday, they are only given a brief trial during which they have to continue to prove they belong. Only after they clear both hurdles (getting the everyday shot and succeeding in it) will they get fully moved in to that top, secure bucket.

Complicating this is the problem of a guy whose skill set doesn't fit with one of Dusty's preconceived archetypes. If you're a speedy guy, you're supposed to be a good contact hitter/lead-off type. If you're a SS, you're also supposed to be a good contact hitter who can move guys around the bases. If you're a catcher, you're supposed to have a weak stick and bat at the bottom of the lineup.

I think Cozart is going to be an interesting case. I think he's viewed as a starter, but he's going to have to clear that "proven" threshold. And because his skill set is unusual, he's going to have a hard time proving himself to Dusty. If and when Sappelt gets called up, I think we'll see the same thing.

reds44
07-07-2011, 02:00 PM
Janish got handed a starting job this year over Renteria.

Dusty is loyal to his players, no matter the age.

reds44
07-07-2011, 02:02 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm Dusty Baker told me in S.T. that SS Zach Cozart was making head turns offensively & defensively

Only took 3+ months of Cozart raking and Edgar Janish being awful to make the switch.

Will M
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
I think the issue is more nuanced. I think it stems from Dusty's well-established tendency to view players based on well-defined, traditional roles rather than as individuals with unique skill sets. Once a player is slotted in to a role, the onus is on the player to force Dusty to reconsider. In short, Dusty is subject to strong confirmation bias -- and it cuts both directions.

On top of this, Dusty has 2 basic dimensions, proven (older) vs. unproven (younger) and starter/bench forming 4 buckets in to which players can be placed:
- Proven starter
- Proven bench
- Unproven starter
- Unproven bench

For young, unproven players who are expected to be everyday players, like Bruce or Stubbs, Dusty has no problem giving them ample opportunity to succeed and giving them the benefit of the doubt when they struggle. He may handle them with a bit more care than a proven vet, but they have plenty of rope to work with. They are starters until they prove that they are not.

For young, unproven players who are seen as bench guys, those without a pedigree or who are clearly behind a proven vet on the depth chart (guys like Janish and Heisey), they have a much tougher road to hoe. In some ways, Dusty presents these guys with a double-standard. Until they perform like everyday players, they won't be given a shot to play everyday. And performing well in spot duty is tough to do. And if they are given a shot to play everyday, they are only given a brief trial during which they have to continue to prove they belong. Only after they clear both hurdles (getting the everyday shot and succeeding in it) will they get fully moved in to that top, secure bucket.

Complicating this is the problem of a guy whose skill set doesn't fit with one of Dusty's preconceived archetypes. If you're a speedy guy, you're supposed to be a good contact hitter/lead-off type. If you're a SS, you're also supposed to be a good contact hitter who can move guys around the bases. If you're a catcher, you're supposed to have a weak stick and bat at the bottom of the lineup.

I think Cozart is going to be an interesting case. I think he's viewed as a starter, but he's going to have to clear that "proven" threshold. And because his skill set is unusual, he's going to have a hard time proving himself to Dusty. If and when Sappelt gets called up, I think we'll see the same thing.

very nice analysis of the way Dusty looks at players

IslandRed
07-07-2011, 02:21 PM
For young, unproven players who are seen as bench guys, those without a pedigree or who are clearly behind a proven vet on the depth chart (guys like Janish and Heisey), they have a much tougher road to hoe. In some ways, Dusty presents these guys with a double-standard. Until they perform like everyday players, they won't be given a shot to play everyday. And performing well in spot duty is tough to do. And if they are given a shot to play everyday, they are only given a brief trial during which they have to continue to prove they belong. Only after they clear both hurdles (getting the everyday shot and succeeding in it) will they get fully moved in to that top, secure bucket.

That really isn't a Dusty thing, though, that's pretty much the way it works everywhere in every sport. The non-pedigreed have always had to wait for opportunities and take advantage of them when they arise. It's the player's job to force a change of opinion, not the team's responsibility to hand over a regular job for awhile Just In Case We're Wrong About You.

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 02:27 PM
An injury occurs to Phillips or Rolen, and yes, they could be removed for Janish. True, Cairo can play both positions, but let's say Rolen gets injured late in a game after Cairo already has PH. Then, who ya gonna call? If you've got a defensively slick, versatile utility infielder like Janish on the bench, it's a no brainer what happens next. But if you got Renteria on the bench, you're better off calling Ghostbusters.

Well.. it all comes down to this..
Usually a bench infield player can either hit or field adequately (If they could do both, they'd be starting).
Ideally, you'd want one of each (one glove backup and one bat backup), but it kind of depends on the makeup of the team.

I can see your logic.. but Janish is so awful with the bat, that you'd never be able to use him as a pinch hitter. I am also pretty confident that Janish could clear waivers and be held in AAA in the event that an injury occurs.
Once Renturia is DFAed, that depth is gone forever.

Not saying that Renturia has been good, he hasn't been. I just think he's the lesser of two evils. I think if there was some bad luck in a game (Rolen and Cairo both injured), Renturia would play 3b.. Renturia wouldn't make Dusty put Lewis or Gomes at 3b.. Renturia does not feel comfortable playing 3b.. so when both Renturia and Janish were playing, it made sense to put Janish at 3b. I don't necessarily think Renturia has a bad attitude, he's just admiting his weakness.

bucksfan2
07-07-2011, 02:32 PM
Well.. it all comes down to this..
Usually a bench infield player can either hit or field adequately (If they could do both, they'd be starting).
Ideally, you'd want one of each (one glove backup and one bat backup), but it kind of depends on the makeup of the team.

I can see your logic.. but Janish is so awful with the bat, that you'd never be able to use him as a pinch hitter. I am also pretty confident that Janish could clear waivers and be held in AAA in the event that an injury occurs.
Once Renturia is DFAed, that depth is gone forever.

Not saying that Renturia has been good, he hasn't been. I just think he's the lesser of two evils. I think if there was some bad luck in a game (Rolen and Cairo both injured), Renturia would play 3b.. Renturia wouldn't make Dusty put Lewis or Gomes at 3b.. Renturia does not feel comfortable playing 3b.. so when both Renturia and Janish were playing, it made sense to put Janish at 3b. I don't necessarily think Renturia has a bad attitude, he's just admiting his weakness.

What you have to ask yourself is whether or not Frazier or Valakia can fill in if Rolen gets injured. I agree with you on the Renteria aspect but the issue to me boils down to whether or not he has value off the bench. And whether or not that value could be eclipsed by anyone in the minors. I wouldn't have an issue DFAing Renteria if I though Frazier or Valakia could produce at a higher level if needed.

RedsManRick
07-07-2011, 02:42 PM
That really isn't a Dusty thing, though, that's pretty much the way it works everywhere in every sport. The non-pedigreed have always had to wait for opportunities and take advantage of them when they arise. It's the player's job to force a change of opinion, not the team's responsibility to hand over a regular job for awhile Just In Case We're Wrong About You.

That's fair; I sort of conflated my thoughts there. I agree that the 2x2 structure is universal. I think the Dusty issue is more about his specific treatment of how a player can prove himself. For guys who don't fit in to a traditional archetype (circa 1980), Dusty has trouble accepting them. Dusty is the type who designs his team with a set of roles and then chooses and uses players based on how well they fit. By contrast, other managers, like Davey Johnson, try to find a way to squeeze as much production in the lineup as possible, even if it means playing Kevin Mitchell at SS when a flyball pitcher is on the mound or batting a SS without a ton of power 3rd.

Rojo
07-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Simplified: Dusty is an extreme player's manager. In the long run that's not a bad thing. In the short run it can be frustrating.

Guacarock
07-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Well.. it all comes down to this..
Usually a bench infield player can either hit or field adequately (If they could do both, they'd be starting).
Ideally, you'd want one of each (one glove backup and one bat backup), but it kind of depends on the makeup of the team.

I agree with your analysis, including how you would divide your two utility infielders, with one being a glove backup and one a bat backup. I see Janish as the logical glove backup for the Reds and Cairo as the bat backup.

Renteria's fielding is nowhere near Janish's, and add the fact that Renteria is reluctant to play 3B and doesn't play 2B much, and he's the prime candidate to go, in my book. His bat isn't any great shakes, either, with his .543 OPS against RHP (as of Sunday) actually being a point below Janish's .544 OPS against RHP, measured at the same time. Renteria does command LHP much more readily than Janish, but if I needed a guy off the bench to face a southpaw, I'm calling Gomes and Cairo every time -- not Renteria.

In sum, I'm in favor of Renteria getting the DFA and Janish staying put in a lesser role as defensive wizard more in keeping with his skillset. I'm sure, as the day unfolds, that we'll learn what the Reds have decided. They might well opt to keep Renteria, still owing him a wad of dough and not wanting to lose his services, while still having to pay him. If so, so be it.

Rojo
07-07-2011, 02:52 PM
I can see your logic.. but Janish is so awful with the bat, that you'd never be able to use him as a pinch hitter. I am also pretty confident that Janish could clear waivers and be held in AAA in the event that an injury occurs.
Once Renturia is DFAed, that depth is gone forever.

That's my take as well. Despite Cozart's hot AAA hitting, he's going to struggle at some point. Renteria's never had a single year OPS+ below Janish's lifetime 62. Paul Janish's are not hard to come by.

reds44
07-07-2011, 02:56 PM
I agree with your analysis, including how you would divide your two utility infielders, with one being a glove backup and one a bat backup. I see Janish as the logical glove backup for the Reds and Cairo as the bat backup.

Renteria's fielding is nowhere near Janish's, and add the fact that Renteria is reluctant to play 3B and doesn't play 2B much, and he's the prime candidate to go, in my book. His bat isn't any great shakes, either, with his .543 OPS against RHP (as of Sunday) actually being a point below Janish's .544 OPS against RHP, measured at the same time. Renteria does command LHP much more readily than Janish, but if I needed a guy off the bench to face a southpaw, I'm calling Gomes and Cairo every time -- not Renteria.

In sum, I'm in favor of Renteria getting the DFA and Janish staying put in a lesser role as defensive wizard more in keeping with his skillset. I'm sure, as the day unfolds, that we'll learn what the Reds have decided. They might well opt to keep Renteria, still owing him a wad of dough and not wanting to lose his services, while still having to pay him. If so, so be it.
Unless the Reds are out of position players, Paul Janish is never going to pinch hit, even more so than Edgar. I understand what their stats say right now, but even taking Edgar's age into the discussion, the offensive abilities of Janish and Edgar have a much larger gap than is currently showing through OPS.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Nope, only 68...but over 4,000 views. :)

I'm disappointed. I expected better from the RZ crowd!

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 03:36 PM
Agreed. Janish's defense does not offset his weak hitting, IMO. I'd rather have a bat off the bench than a glove (assuming Cozart gets the starts).

But Janish gives you a "bat" and a solid glove at multiple positions. Renteria just gives you a "bat". I don't care if he has hit a bit better lately or not, he's still such a questionable bat that I don't see the usefulness for a pinch hitter. Same for Janish. I love Paul, but it's certainly reached that point where he needs to be benched.

reds44
07-07-2011, 03:38 PM
I was unaware they even bothered giving Janish a bat anymore. Seems like a waste of wood.

Eric_the_Red
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
But Janish gives you a "bat" and a solid glove at multiple positions. Renteria just gives you a "bat". I don't care if he has hit a bit better lately or not, he's still such a questionable bat that I don't see the usefulness for a pinch hitter. Same for Janish. I love Paul, but it's certainly reached that point where he needs to be benched.

Janish does not provide a "bat" at any position, including pinchi-hitting for the pitcher. Renteria may be having a down year offensively, but if I need a hit and my choice is between those two, I'll take Renteria every day of the week.

Caveat Emperor
07-07-2011, 03:50 PM
I'm disappointed. I expected better from the RZ crowd!

Honestly, the tone of discussion around here has gotten so incredibly melodramatic that I find myself less interested in doing much more than casual browsing these days.

westofyou
07-07-2011, 03:50 PM
I love Paul, but it's certainly reached that point where he needs to be benched.

Benched?

The man can't cut it at the top level, no shame in that if we sat down and ate dinner with him this evening he'd probably be the best baseball player we ever ate with.

But he's a black hole at the dish and his glove is not balancing out the ledger.

He has no bat.

kaldaniels
07-07-2011, 03:51 PM
It's the lesser of 2 evils, but I'm on Team Edgar.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 03:52 PM
Janish does not provide a "bat" at any position, including pinchi-hitting for the pitcher. Renteria may be having a down year offensively, but if I need a hit and my choice is between those two, I'll take Renteria every day of the week.

Are you trying to seriously tell me that Janish couldn't get a hit. At all? I've seen both of them play this year, and they're both equally bad with the stick. Sure, Edgar's been on a bit of a hot streak. Janish has had those too. Bottom line is this...if it's late in the game and you need a pinch hitter...who are you gonna call? I'd vote NEITHER. You've got other viable bats who are more suited for PH'ing duties. At least Paul provides excellent defense at multiple positions making him valuable as a defensive replacement at the minimum. I just don't get this defending of Renteria as a bench player. He's got no bat AND no glove. DFA him.

If the Reds have soured on Janish so much that they don't want him as a bench player...fine. Option him and bring up Valaika or Frazier. But dump Renteria either way.

BTW...this "hot streak" of Edgars....

Last 7 days. 4 for 18, 1 HR, 1 rbi, .222 avg. Yippee! Dump him.

Caveat Emperor
07-07-2011, 03:56 PM
Benched?

The man can't cut it at the top level, no shame in that if we sat down and ate dinner with him this evening he'd probably be the best baseball player we ever ate with.

But he's a black hole at the dish and his glove is not balancing out the ledger.

He has no bat.

Lifetime OPS:

Paul Janish: .604
Juan Castro: .595

Brutus
07-07-2011, 03:56 PM
Honestly, the tone of discussion around here has gotten so incredibly melodramatic that I find myself less interested in doing much more than casual browsing these days.

It has been rather reactionary, no question.

fearofpopvol1
07-07-2011, 04:06 PM
I've heard in the past that while Cozart's glove was good, it was not better than Janish's. How much (even if it's slight) is the dropoff from Janish's glove to Cozart's?

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:08 PM
I've heard in the past that while Cozart's glove was good, it was not better than Janish's. How much (even if it's slight) is the dropoff from Janish's glove to Cozart's?
Going off the comparison that Cozart is Jeteresque (and I'll assume that's young Jeter), not a lot. You'll lose a little in range, but he'll make the plays he gets to.

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:10 PM
Are you trying to seriously tell me that Janish couldn't get a hit. At all? I've seen both of them play this year, and they're both equally bad with the stick. Sure, Edgar's been on a bit of a hot streak. Janish has had those too. Bottom line is this...if it's late in the game and you need a pinch hitter...who are you gonna call? I'd vote NEITHER. You've got other viable bats who are more suited for PH'ing duties. At least Paul provides excellent defense at multiple positions making him valuable as a defensive replacement at the minimum. I just don't get this defending of Renteria as a bench player. He's got no bat AND no glove. DFA him.

If the Reds have soured on Janish so much that they don't want him as a bench player...fine. Option him and bring up Valaika or Frazier. But dump Renteria either way.

BTW...this "hot streak" of Edgars....

Last 7 days. 4 for 18, 1 HR, 1 rbi, .222 avg. Yippee! Dump him.
Who (other than you), said Edgar was on a hot streak? I have some hope that Edgar can put up a decent AB if he's called upon. I have no faith in Janish to do so.

Not to mention you're talking about a guy who won World Series MVP last year. I don't know about you guys, but I still plan on going to the playoffs this year.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 04:10 PM
Going off the comparison that Cozart is Jeteresque (and I'll assume that's young Jeter), not a lot. You'll lose a little in range, but he'll make the plays he gets to.

The range from Janish to Jeter, even young Jeter, isn't remotely comparable. Jeter didn't have a lot of range ever in his career.

So if Jeter is Cozart's comp, then the Reds lose a lot.

OesterPoster
07-07-2011, 04:18 PM
@Kurkjian_ESPN Tim Kurkjian
Reds sent Janish and Volquez to minor leagues. Zack Cozart will get a look at shortstop

redsmetz
07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
NM - OesterPoster beat me to the punch.

Big Klu
07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Janish does not provide a "bat" at any position, including pinchi-hitting for the pitcher. Renteria may be having a down year offensively, but if I need a hit and my choice is between those two, I'll take Renteria every day of the week.

I'm not sure that Mike Leake (and maybe Bronson Arroyo, too) doesn't provide a better at-bat than Janish. Of course, that may be because my expectations for them are lower because they are pitchers.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 04:21 PM
Interesting. Very. So Willis could get a few innings in tonight in preparation to take Volquez's spot? That's just my guess.

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Interesting. Very. So Willis could get a few innings in tonight in preparation to take Volquez's spot? That's just my guess.
Willis is still in AAA. He just tweeted about losing a game of ping pong to Gil. My guess is they call up Fisher until Sunday, then Willis comes up.

Sending Janish down was the right move.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 04:23 PM
Willis is still in AAA. He just tweeted about losing a game of ping pong to Gil. My guess is they call up Fisher until Sunday, then Willis comes up.

Sending Janish down was the right move.

It's not the right move. He's more valuable than Renteria, if we assume Cozart is going to get most of the starts.

But because Janish had an option and Renteria does not, it's the easy move.

REDREAD
07-07-2011, 04:24 PM
Bottom line is this...if it's late in the game and you need a pinch hitter...who are you gonna call? I'd vote NEITHER. You've got other viable bats who are more suited for PH'ing duties. .

Well, that is true. However, since the Reds want to carry 12 pitchers, their bench is thin.

You don't want to use your backup C as a PH unless it's late in the game, as that leaves you exposed if their is a C injury.. Although Dusty is pretty liberal about using both catchers in the same game.. I don't know if that's his philosphy, or if he feels he's forced to.

That leaves 4 among Cairo, Lewis, Heisey and the backup SS.
Not a lot of pinch hitters to pull from.

If the Reds only had 11 pitchers, I would be more open to having Janish on the roster as a "glove" guy, but honestly, I wouldn't call his defense excellent.
Since they have 12 pitchers, the backup SS will be needed to PH from time to time. Since Phillips, Cairo, and Rolen do not need late game defensive replacements (and I assume Cozart doesn't either), I don't see the big need for a glove guy. Honestly, I would rather have Leake PH over Janish.. Janish is that bad.

I guess my fear is that if Janish is kept on the bench, he will never be used, other than to give Cozart a day off. Cairo is still ahead on the depth chart as the backup 2b/3b. If they had a lead glove at 2b or 3b, Janish would be more appealing on the bench..

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:24 PM
It's not the right move. He's more valuable than Renteria, if we assume Cozart is going to get most of the starts.

But because Janish had an option and Renteria does not, it's the easy move.
Agree to disagree. Lets be honest here, they are both bad. I just have more faith in Renteria.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 04:25 PM
Fisher up.


And I meant Willis getting innings in in Louisville tonight.

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:25 PM
From the Reds twitter:
Reds promote IF Zack Cozart (#2) and RHP Carlos Fisher, option IF Paul Janish and RHP Edinson Volquez. Cozart make ML debut when he plays.

He's wearing number 2! Yesssssssssssssssssss

HeatherC1212
07-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Good luck to Zack as he makes his big league debut sometime during this series. He seems like a good kid and I'm happy for him. Glad they're sending Volquez out (driving me bat crazy lately) although I'm bummed for Janish that things aren't working out for him.

All Zack has to do now is hit like Barry and field like Davey and maybe Redszone won't turn against him before the All Star break. :p

Brutus
07-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Agree to disagree. Lets be honest here, they are both bad. I just have more faith in Renteria.

Offensively I do too. But offensively doesn't mean much as a late inning replacement. That's why I think Janish is a much better fit than Renteria (again, if we assume Cozart is coming up to get most of the starts).

lollipopcurve
07-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Start him tonight against Narveson. Let Edgar battle Greinke tomorrow.

(Won't happen, if Dusty plays it true to form.)

reds44
07-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Offensively I do too. But offensively doesn't mean much as a late inning replacement. That's why I think Janish is a much better fit than Renteria (again, if we assume Cozart is coming up to get most of the starts).
Unless Cozart is a bad defender, I just don't see Janish ever coming in late for defense.

PuffyPig
07-07-2011, 04:32 PM
Well, that is true. However, since the Reds want to carry 12 pitchers, their bench is thin.

.

Pretty much every NL team carries 12 pitchers, some (including the Cards) often carry 13.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 04:34 PM
Unless Cozart is a bad defender, I just don't see Janish ever coming in late for defense.

Fair enough. I guess it remains to be seen what Cozart's defensive ability really is. But we'll soon find out.

I want to make it clear I'm not against sending Janish instead of Renteria down. Offensively, as I said, I agree Renteria is more trustworthy. But I don't think that will matter much and defensively is a big difference. But because they didn't have to outright assign a veteran, this is the easy way of dealing with it.

cinreds21
07-07-2011, 04:35 PM
He's a tick or two above average.

Guacarock
07-07-2011, 04:36 PM
I've heard in the past that while Cozart's glove was good, it was not better than Janish's. How much (even if it's slight) is the dropoff from Janish's glove to Cozart's?

I saw both pick it at SS during spring training in Goodyear. There's a dropoff in defense from Janish to Cozart, but it's not a steep dropoff. Cozart is solid, but Janish is rangier and has a stronger arm. Cozart does have speed, though, and runs the bases well.

By comparison, what I saw from Renteria didn't inspire much confidence. His fielding skills have clearly eroded and the dropoff from Janish to him was more like the difference between standing on the rim or looking up from the floor of the Grand Canyon.

I don't think the Reds picked up Renteria, though, for his fielding abilities so much as they wanted a pedigreed vet to fill Cabrera's shoes. That's fine with me, but go after a grizzly 1B or 2B, then -- spare us the Geritol set manning SS.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2011, 04:41 PM
All Zack has to do now is hit like Barry and field like Davey and maybe Redszone won't turn against him before the All Star break.
:)

Hopefully folks understand that Cozart profiles as a "solid regular." Not Jeter, not Stephen Drew. Not a guy who will one day stand aside Larkin and Concepcion. We're looking for steady, all-around competence here. And there will be the usual learning curve. He's got a nicely rounded game -- from defense to EBH power to baserunning -- but it's not spectacular. So I'm with Heather -- may the expectations be realistic.

IslandRed
07-07-2011, 04:48 PM
Hopefully folks understand that Cozart profiles as a "solid regular." Not Jeter, not Stephen Drew. Not a guy who will one day stand aside Larkin and Concepcion. We're looking for steady, all-around competence here. And there will be the usual learning curve. He's got a nicely rounded game -- from defense to EBH power to baserunning -- but it's not spectacular. So I'm with Heather -- may the expectations be realistic.

Well said.

LincolnparkRed
07-07-2011, 04:49 PM
:)

Hopefully folks understand that Cozart profiles as a "solid regular." Not Jeter, not Stephen Drew. Not a guy who will one day stand aside Larkin and Concepcion. We're looking for steady, all-around competence here. And there will be the usual learning curve. He's got a nicely rounded game -- from defense to EBH power to baserunning -- but it's not spectacular. So I'm with Heather -- may the expectations be realistic.

Redszone doesn't do realistic very well when it pertains to our own prospects.

RichRed
07-07-2011, 04:51 PM
He's wearing number 2! Yesssssssssssssssssss

Jeteresque!

Homer Bailey
07-07-2011, 05:00 PM
Just ordered Cozart's jersey in home, away, alternate, and camo. Also booked a hotel in Cooperstown in 2036. I'm expecting big things!

klw
07-07-2011, 05:03 PM
I have to confess that I had forgotten that Fisher had been sent down. I can't keep track of where he is.

OldXOhio
07-07-2011, 05:10 PM
Zack's in the lineup hitting 7th.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2011, 05:11 PM
Celebrate good times, c'mon!

(Watch him not hit well at all now that it's finally happened. But "not well at all" will still be much better than "Paul Janish.")

AtomicDumpling
07-07-2011, 05:22 PM
OK we finally got rid of Paul Janish -- the 2nd worst player in the majors and his .530 OPS (Chone Figgins is the worst at .476 OPS). Janish is not a bum or a terrible player but I think he has proven to most observers that he is not good enough to be a key component of a contending major league team. His true talent level maxes out at AAA and his upside maxes out as the 25th man defensive substitute on a mediocre MLB team.

Now we can start thinking about replacing Edgar Renteria with Todd Frazier. Frazier is not a super-young prospect type any longer who needs to play everyday in the minors. He is 25 years old and is ready for the Reds to get some production out of him as a utility player. He can be a better pinch hitter than Renteria and is more versatile on the field. Frazier is not a great glove guy but he is adequate and certainly better than Renteria's old hands and feet.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 05:23 PM
Agree to disagree. Lets be honest here, they are both bad. I just have more faith in Renteria.

But would you have more faith in Todd Frazier or Chris Valiaka over Renteria? Because that's the more pressing question in my mind. I think everybody will admit that both Janish and Renteria have been equally bad at the plate. Correct? Toss in the fact that Edgar is bad in the field as well...why would we want to keep him on the bench AT ALL? Because he has a "track record"? His career is winding down, he's having a horrible year, he's not really showing any signs of life and he can only back-up (poorly I might add) 2 positions. Short & second. Both Valiaka and Frazier can man those positions just as well (if not better) and they both provide considerably more at the plate than Edgar. I personally haven't seen ANYTHING from Renteria to provide me with any "faith".

People keep wanting to choose between Janish and Renteria...I just don't understand why? If they're both bad right now...then why choose?

LvJ
07-07-2011, 05:33 PM
Just ordered Cozart's jersey in home, away, alternate, and camo. Also booked a hotel in Cooperstown in 2036. I'm expecting big things!

:laugh:

fearofpopvol1
07-07-2011, 05:42 PM
OK we finally got rid of Paul Janish -- the 2nd worst player in the majors and his .530 OPS (Chone Figgins is the worst at .476 OPS). Janish is not a bum or a terrible player but I think he has proven to most observers that he is not good enough to be a key component of a contending major league team. His true talent level maxes out at AAA and his upside maxes out as the 25th man defensive substitute on a mediocre MLB team.

Now we can start thinking about replacing Edgar Renteria with Todd Frazier. Frazier is not a super-young prospect type any longer who needs to play everyday in the minors. He is 25 years old and is ready for the Reds to get some production out of him as a utility player. He can be a better pinch hitter than Renteria and is more versatile on the field. Frazier is not a great glove guy but he is adequate and certainly better than Renteria's old hands and feet.

I don't know about Frazier, but I'd like to see Gomes DFAed and Sappelt called up. I'd also like to see Wood called up and Volquez optioned.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 05:47 PM
I don't know about Frazier, but I'd like to see Gomes DFAed and Sappelt called up. I'd also like to see Wood called up and Volquez optioned.

Gomes has an .892 OPS for his career against LHP and about .900 for the Reds. I'm curious why you'd want to get rid of him? That's an awfully valuable commodity when used properly.

By the way... I too like Sappelt. But Gomes is a value asset, if used to his limitations.

traderumor
07-07-2011, 05:56 PM
Gomes has an .892 OPS for his career against LHP and about .900 for the Reds. I'm curious why you'd want to get rid of him? That's an awfully valuable commodity when used properly.

By the way... I too like Sappelt. But Gomes is a value asset, if used to his limitations.
I'm not sure the Reds have enough opportunities for his one trick pony act to justify his roster spot. There are not an abundance of southpaw starters in the division and our hitters that trigger the lefty out of the pen hit lefties well. I'd prefer a more tooled outfielder take his spot.

Blimpie
07-07-2011, 05:58 PM
Well, my son will certainly be ecstatic.

We were in Cincy last weekend to catch a few of the games against the Indians. While there, I purchased for him an unidentified Reds 'game used' helmet for quite a bit less money than what some of the other helmets were fetching (e.g. Alonzo, Stubbs, etc...).

All of their game used helmets are authenticated by MLB and come with a hologram sticker, serial number, etc... We used a smart phone to check the id # while in the store; as it turns out, the helmet was used by Zack Cozart for the entire 2011 Spring Training Season.

Guacarock
07-07-2011, 05:59 PM
Gomes has an .892 OPS for his career against LHP and about .900 for the Reds. I'm curious why you'd want to get rid of him? That's an awfully valuable commodity when used properly.

By the way... I too like Sappelt. But Gomes is a value asset, if used to his limitations.

Gomes' OPS against LHP this year is exceeding his career average -- now at a towering 1.096. That's about as good as it gets. He's one of the Reds' most valuable bench assets. He just shouldn't be playing left field day-in and day-out. He needs a complementary platoon partner.

reds44
07-07-2011, 06:03 PM
But would you have more faith in Todd Frazier or Chris Valiaka over Renteria? Because that's the more pressing question in my mind. I think everybody will admit that both Janish and Renteria have been equally bad at the plate. Correct? Toss in the fact that Edgar is bad in the field as well...why would we want to keep him on the bench AT ALL? Because he has a "track record"? His career is winding down, he's having a horrible year, he's not really showing any signs of life and he can only back-up (poorly I might add) 2 positions. Short & second. Both Valiaka and Frazier can man those positions just as well (if not better) and they both provide considerably more at the plate than Edgar. I personally haven't seen ANYTHING from Renteria to provide me with any "faith".

People keep wanting to choose between Janish and Renteria...I just don't understand why? If they're both bad right now...then why choose?
Because Frazier and Valiaka can't play shortstop? Seems pretty obvious.

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Because Frazier and Valiaka can't play shortstop? Seems pretty obvious.

Valaika can play shortstop every bit as good as Renteria can. But, I don't know that he would be an offensive upgrade to be honest.

Brutus
07-07-2011, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure the Reds have enough opportunities for his one trick pony act to justify his roster spot. There are not an abundance of southpaw starters in the division and our hitters that trigger the lefty out of the pen hit lefties well. I'd prefer a more tooled outfielder take his spot.

He's quietly having a decent year. He's on pace for about 2.4 wins above replacement. His wOBA is a very solid .342 and the Reds seem to have found a nice thing going with he, Heisey and Lewis since their park-adjusted OPS+ for LF as a whole this year is actually above average (102).

If the Reds get to the playoffs, his presence against a good LHP like Hamels, Lee, Bumgarner/Zito, etc. could prove invaluable.

I'm a big Sappelt fan. But we don't know he's going to come up and do any better. Since the Reds are getting OK production out of LF right now (slightly above average, in fact), I say stick with that and let Sappelt continue to get valuable at-bats in Louisville.

westofyou
07-07-2011, 06:06 PM
Trying to defend Janish at this moment is nothing more than a Sisyphusian exercise.

fearofpopvol1
07-07-2011, 06:14 PM
Gomes has an .892 OPS for his career against LHP and about .900 for the Reds. I'm curious why you'd want to get rid of him? That's an awfully valuable commodity when used properly.

By the way... I too like Sappelt. But Gomes is a value asset, if used to his limitations.

Gomes is having a near career year (so far), at least on pace for his 2nd best. But Gomes has had roughly 5 seasons of more than part time playing responsibilities and has netted 4.0 WAR. It's certainly nothing special. I think Sappelt with his defense in LF and his hitting would easily net over 4.0 WAR in 5 seasons of PAs.

I might agree with you if Dusty strictly played Gomes to his strengths, but he doesn't. He has way too many PAs against RHP and he's still a poor defender in the field while he plays.

Superdude
07-07-2011, 06:17 PM
Well this is great news :D

Edd Roush
07-07-2011, 06:25 PM
Gomes' OPS against LHP this year is exceeding his career average -- now at a towering 1.096. That's about as good as it gets. He's one of the Reds' most valuable bench assets. He just shouldn't be playing left field day-in and day-out. He needs a complementary platoon partner.

Lewis is doing a pretty good job of that this year. He needs to be hitting higher in the line-up against right-handed starting pitchers.

Left field is no longer a problem. Shortstop could be less of a problem if Cozart can OPS .650 and let's hope Dontrelle returns to his early-Marlins form.

Guacarock
07-07-2011, 06:38 PM
Trying to defend Janish at this moment is nothing more than a Sisyphusian exercise.

Hey, no one says that about my "Sis" without me getting exercised!

Brutus
07-07-2011, 06:48 PM
Gomes is having a near career year (so far), at least on pace for his 2nd best. But Gomes has had roughly 5 seasons of more than part time playing responsibilities and has netted 4.0 WAR. It's certainly nothing special. I think Sappelt with his defense in LF and his hitting would easily net over 4.0 WAR in 5 seasons of PAs.

I might agree with you if Dusty strictly played Gomes to his strengths, but he doesn't. He has way too many PAs against RHP and he's still a poor defender in the field while he plays.

As I said previously, I wholeheartedly share your optimism about Sappelt. I think he's a legitimate hitter and will be a good player for the Reds. But I don't think the Reds need to bring up a prospect in the middle of a playoff race unless it's necessary (Cozart's call-up was a necessary thing given the absolute black hole of production they were getting at that position).

I think Dusty should be credited in that Gomes is not getting nearly as much playing time now. Gomes is hitting much better the last several weeks and I believe it's in direct causation of Dusty putting him in positions to succeed. If the Reds continue to manage their current assets to the best of their abilities in the outfield, I think they can get similar production as they'd get from Sappelt and can do so without burning any of his service/arbitration clock.

BCubb2003
07-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Sisyphusian exercise.

I think I've seen infomercials for that. Something about pushing a big ball.

Raisor
07-07-2011, 07:17 PM
Glad to see Cozart up.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 07:20 PM
Because Frazier and Valiaka can't play shortstop? Seems pretty obvious.

Actually, yes they can. As well as Renteria. Plus they can play multiple other positions too. Valaika's played 402 games at short in the minors. Frazier started out there and has 112 games at short in the minors. It's not going to be either guys' regular spot for certain...but they can both play it as well as Renteria does. AND they can hit.

Simply put, I'd prefer EITHER of them over Renteria as a bench warmer.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 07:21 PM
Trying to defend Janish at this moment is nothing more than a Sisyphusian exercise.

As is trying to defend Renteria. That's all I was saying.

Raisor
07-07-2011, 07:24 PM
Maybe people are seeing Edgar's .575 OPS and thinking that's his SLG?

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 07:35 PM
Actually, yes they can. As well as Renteria. Plus they can play multiple other positions too. Valaika's played 402 games at short in the minors. Frazier started out there and has 112 games at short in the minors. It's not going to be either guys' regular spot for certain...but they can both play it as well as Renteria does. AND they can hit.

Simply put, I'd prefer EITHER of them over Renteria as a bench warmer.

Todd Frazier should never play shortstop unless its an absolute emergency. I would take Renteria's defense at shortstop ahead of Frazier's and not think twice about it.

reds44
07-07-2011, 07:35 PM
There's a lot more leg to stand on to defend Renteria than Janish.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 07:38 PM
Todd Frazier should never play shortstop unless its an absolute emergency. I would take Renteria's defense at shortstop ahead of Frazier's and not think twice about it.

Most likely a valid point. I haven't seen Todd there in quite a long time. I was only saying that if he HAD to....he could. My main point was that he'd be a much more viable option as a bench player than Renteria is. Todd is a much better batter and he can play the OF, 3B, 2B and SS in a pinch. Hasn't he had time at first too? I may be remembering wrong on that one though.

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Most likely a valid point. I haven't seen Todd there in quite a long time. I was only saying that if he HAD to....he could. My main point was that he'd be a much more viable option as a bench player than Renteria is. Todd is a much better batter and he can play the OF, 3B, 2B and SS in a pinch. Hasn't he had time at first too? I may be remembering wrong on that one though.

I am with you on the overall opinion. It isn't like you are going to be pulling Cozart to replace him with a defensive guy, so having Renteria as an extra "bat" doesn't make much sense.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 07:42 PM
There's a lot more leg to stand on to defend Renteria than Janish.

This year?

ER .229/.304/.271/.575 + crappy leather
PJ .227/.259/.271/.539 + excellent leather

This year, neither are viable options.

edabbs44
07-07-2011, 07:52 PM
This year?

ER .229/.304/.271/.575 + crappy leather
PJ .227/.259/.271/.539 + excellent leather

This year, neither are viable options.

Fwiw, ER's uzr is pretty in line with his career levels.

reds44
07-07-2011, 07:56 PM
This year?

ER .229/.304/.271/.575 + crappy leather
PJ .227/.259/.271/.539 + excellent leather

This year, neither are viable options.
This is far an away the worst year of Renteria's career, and he's STILL out OPSing Janish by .036.

Edgar, even at his old age, is a better than .575 OPS hitter. Paul Janish has a career OPS+ of 62.

reds44
07-07-2011, 08:01 PM
Just keep in mind the situation while we discuss this, our new everyday SS is supposed to be an above average fielder. Janish has an option left, Renteria doesn't. The other two positions Janish plays are already manned by gold glovers.

What's more important? A guy that can give you a quality AB off the bench (at least of better quality than Janish) or a guy who is going to come in and give you an inning of really good defense as opposed to above average?

To me, you keep Renteria. It could especially pay off in October. If Cozart proves to need a defensive replacement, then you can always just call Janish back up.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2011, 08:05 PM
Just keep in mind the situation while we discuss this, our new everyday SS is supposed to be an above average fielder. Janish has an option left, Renteria doesn't. The other two positions Janish plays are already manned by gold glovers.

What's more important? A guy that can give you a quality AB off the bench (at least of better quality than Janish) or a guy who is going to come in and give you an inning of really good defense as opposed to above average?

To me, you keep Renteria. It could especially pay off in October. If Cozart proves to need a defensive replacement, then you can always just call Janish back up.

I understand what you're trying to say. I really do. But the bolded part...that's the part I'm just not seeing. He doesn't give us quality ab's. If he did, he wouldn't be sporting the numbers he currently is. The only thing I was trying to get across was that if the Reds have finally decided that what Janish was doing isn't going to cut it...then they should've made that same decision on Renteria...because it's basically equivalent.

And lastly...let's hope Cozart makes this all a moot point. :O)

reds44
07-07-2011, 08:06 PM
I understand what you're trying to say. I really do. But the bolded part...that's the part I'm just not seeing. He doesn't give us quality ab's. If he did, he wouldn't be sporting the numbers he currently is. The only thing I was trying to get across was that if the Reds have finally decided that what Janish was doing isn't going to cut it...then they should've made that same decision on Renteria...because it's basically equivalent.
Or the Reds decided that Janish is preforming to his talent level and Renteria is better than what he is hitting.

CTA513
07-07-2011, 08:13 PM
He needs to start hitting soon then.

Benihana
07-07-2011, 09:02 PM
So does Stubbs take his old #7 if Janish isn't on the OD roster next year?

I remember Barry Larkin switching from 15 to 11 after a couple years in the bigs.

membengal
07-07-2011, 09:44 PM
Cozart's glove/range/arm passed the first eye test.

Big Klu
07-07-2011, 09:45 PM
So does Stubbs take his old #7 if Janish isn't on the OD roster next year?

I remember Barry Larkin switching from 15 to 11 after a couple years in the bigs.

I would be surprised. Stubbs is in his third year with the Reds, and now has a history and is identified with #6. He may switch to #7 if he moves on to another club, but I think he will stay with #6 as long as he is in Cincinnati.

Besides, I would think #7 would still belong to Janish as long as he is in the organization, even if he weren't on the Opening Day roster.

hebroncougar
07-07-2011, 09:56 PM
My question is what happens when the Reds need Renteria to play a position other than SS, you know, where's he's not comfortable?

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 09:57 PM
My question is what happens when the Reds need Renteria to play a position other than SS, you know, where's he's not comfortable?
They get someone else to play it?

Griffey012
07-07-2011, 10:29 PM
I am with you on the overall opinion. It isn't like you are going to be pulling Cozart to replace him with a defensive guy, so having Renteria as an extra "bat" doesn't make much sense.

I would rather have Renteria coming to the plate with his .575 OPS and all as a pinch hitter against a stud middle reliever or closer than I would bringing a rookie into the mix to fill the role and step in against a good pitcher they have probably never seen.

This also all depends on how often Cozart stats, hopefully it is daily. Renteria may get a start a week. If this is the case the value between a AAA option and ER for 1 start a week is marginal at best, but as a pinch hitter ER is going to have the upper hand in the situations I described. And with Cairo, Gomes/Heisey/Lewis, Hernandez/Hanigan being some of the first options off the bench the last pinch hitter spot is not a highly used one, but it could be a critical one.

Of course if ER is starting 3 times a week my argument is negated.

hebroncougar
07-07-2011, 10:55 PM
They get someone else to play it?

So, you carry a guy on your bench that can only play SS? Because according to what I've read/heard, that's all Renteria will do.

dougdirt
07-07-2011, 10:57 PM
So, you carry a guy on your bench that can only play SS? Because according to what I've read/heard, that's all Renteria will do.

I would have cut him long ago. But I don't get to make the decisions.

Ron Madden
07-08-2011, 03:49 AM
I would have cut him long ago. But I don't get to make the decisions.

Agreed. At this point in his career Renteria is just a waste of a 25 man roster spot.

GAC
07-08-2011, 06:06 AM
I just hope Cozart gets the share of the playing time with ER the backup.

It was mentioned that Dusty is very loyal, and patient - sometimes to much - with players. True. Was reading the following from the article on the call up....


But the manager wouldn't write off Janish or Renteria. "Janish has put quite a bit of pressure on himself and his confidence is waning some so he needed to go down and more than anything get his confidence together," Baker said. "Definitely a quality shortstop, definitely a big league shortstop and one of the best there is I think. It's just a matter of him getting his stroke together, getting his offense together."

Baker added: "Renteria is still going to play, and he's starting to get his stroke together so hopefully we can use both of them. [We'll] bring Cozart in not slowly, but at a medium pace to learn our league, learn our pitching staff. There's a lot to do."

And I really have no problem with his assessment on how he is going to bring Cozart along slowly at first till he gets acclimated to this level. Don't want to put too much pressure on the kid at first till he starts to feel comfortable.

lollipopcurve
07-08-2011, 07:21 AM
I like the way the Reds are handling this. Much prefer Renteria as the backup guy, with Cozart getting the majority of the starts.

traderumor
07-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Other than a few glimpses in ST, this is the first I've watched an entire game of Cozart. Weird observation is that he has the same mannerism as Janish, I mean a mirror image of moving his arms/bat preswing. Really weird. Hopefully he has more success with the swing :). Also, I did a doubletake a couple of times in the field when they had a view from behind, still looked like Janish out there. Its like they were separated at birth? Paul got the arm, Zach got the bat? Let's hope, cuz the arm is enough.

He does seem to be rangy, arm passable.

reds44
07-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Other than a few glimpses in ST, this is the first I've watched an entire game of Cozart. Weird observation is that he has the same mannerism as Janish, I mean a mirror image of moving his arms/bat preswing. Really weird. Hopefully he has more success with the swing :). Also, I did a doubletake a couple of times in the field when they had a view from behind, still looked like Janish out there. Its like they were separated at birth? Paul got the arm, Zach got the bat? Let's hope, cuz the arm is enough.

He does seem to be rangy, arm passable.
I noticed the exam same thing. I could not believe how similar their batting stances were when I was watching Cozart last night. It's nearly exactly the same thing.

Btw, after watching one game of Cozart you can already see he's bigger, faster, and stronger than Janish. Unless he strikes out a ton, I don't see anyway he will not be better offensively.

lollipopcurve
07-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Btw, after watching one game of Cozart you can already see he's bigger, faster, and stronger than Janish.

Yep. The upgrade is pretty plain to see.

CrackerJack
07-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Other than a few glimpses in ST, this is the first I've watched an entire game of Cozart. Weird observation is that he has the same mannerism as Janish, I mean a mirror image of moving his arms/bat preswing. Really weird. Hopefully he has more success with the swing :). Also, I did a doubletake a couple of times in the field when they had a view from behind, still looked like Janish out there. Its like they were separated at birth? Paul got the arm, Zach got the bat? Let's hope, cuz the arm is enough.

He does seem to be rangy, arm passable.

One difference is that Cozart is built - I can see where he can generate more hits/power with contact than Janish ever could. I really like guys that take keeping in shape seriously, long term (look what it has done for Votto who has exceeded his expectations).

I will forego mentioning current and former players here who have fizzled quickly or are not meeting expectations because they don't seem to respect what today's game does over time to their bodies and the competition they are faced with at this level today...and can no longer get away with just natural ability. Things are too competitive/specialized today.

For instance I'm not sure Stubbs enjoys the modest success he has even, if he didn't keep in shape like he does - his power bursts and speed keep him around seemingly (since he cannot make contact more often).

cinreds21
07-08-2011, 02:43 PM
I noticed the exam same thing. I could not believe how similar their batting stances were when I was watching Cozart last night. It's nearly exactly the same thing.

Btw, after watching one game of Cozart you can already see he's bigger, faster, and stronger than Janish. Unless he strikes out a ton, I don't see anyway he will not be better offensively.

He is a good situational hitter.

reds44
07-08-2011, 02:48 PM
He is a good situational hitter.
I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't. All I was saying that his physical tools are obvious and that the ONLY thing that could keep him from being an upgrade over Janish is if he strikes out a ton. I don't think he will, all I was saying is that is the only thing that could hold him back.

I was honestly surprised with how well he was built.

REDREAD
07-08-2011, 02:53 PM
Pretty much every NL team carries 12 pitchers, some (including the Cards) often carry 13.

True.. I'm not saying that carrying 12 pitchers is wrong.
But when you only have enough room on the bench for a backup catcher and 4 other guys, and your starting 3b and 2b are gold glovers, and Cozart is supposed to be an adequate defender.. There's no point in carrying a glove guy like Janish.

The Reds made the right call sending Janish down.. and big surprise, no one claimed him. Janish is now depth if we get an injury to the infield.

REDREAD
07-08-2011, 03:00 PM
So does Stubbs take his old #7 if Janish isn't on the OD roster next year?

I remember Barry Larkin switching from 15 to 11 after a couple years in the bigs.

I think Larkin switched his number because his buddy Stillwell wore #11 when he was with the Reds.. Didn't Lark switch his number to Stillwell's after Stillwell was traded.. Does anyone remember this?

cinreds21
07-08-2011, 03:40 PM
I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't. All I was saying that his physical tools are obvious and that the ONLY thing that could keep him from being an upgrade over Janish is if he strikes out a ton. I don't think he will, all I was saying is that is the only thing that could hold him back.

I was honestly surprised with how well he was built.

I know you didn't, I was just saying it.

cinreds21
07-08-2011, 03:42 PM
True.. I'm not saying that carrying 12 pitchers is wrong.
But when you only have enough room on the bench for a backup catcher and 4 other guys, and your starting 3b and 2b are gold glovers, and Cozart is supposed to be an adequate defender.. There's no point in carrying a glove guy like Janish.

The Reds made the right call sending Janish down.. and big surprise, no one claimed him. Janish is now depth if we get an injury to the infield.

He wasn't out of options. And I know Brutus pointed out a rule about Janish and Volquez having to clear waivers. I trust Brutus because he knows his transactional stuff, but I just don't think that rule is correct, or is interpreted correctly. I have never heard of anything about a guy who has options, with less than (I think 5 years) of big league time, having to go through waivers to be sent down.

Big Klu
07-08-2011, 04:45 PM
I think Larkin switched his number because his buddy Stillwell wore #11 when he was with the Reds.. Didn't Lark switch his number to Stillwell's after Stillwell was traded.. Does anyone remember this?

Yes, Kurt Stillwell wore #11 when Barry Larkin wore #15, in 1986 and '87. Larkin switched to #11 in 1988 after Stillwell was traded to the Royals for Danny Jackson. I have never heard exactly why Larkin changed numbers, though.

klw
07-08-2011, 04:50 PM
Wow a 15 page thread about the re-promotion of Carlos Fisher! Just imagine if Jordan Smith was coming back up! Or that other guy- Cochrane

Brutus
07-08-2011, 04:51 PM
He wasn't out of options. And I know Brutus pointed out a rule about Janish and Volquez having to clear waivers. I trust Brutus because he knows his transactional stuff, but I just don't think that rule is correct, or is interpreted correctly. I have never heard of anything about a guy who has options, with less than (I think 5 years) of big league time, having to go through waivers to be sent down.

I'm absolutely positive the rule exists (as I should be since it came straight from the Major League Rules). I also got it from an MLB insider when I was doing a story for Biz of Baseball about transactions. I just wasn't 100% sure of its application.

However, in support of my interpretation, Quatitos found this link, which was an article by Keith Law of ESPN, after I made my posts about needing to clear waivers:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php


I'll never forget something I saw this spring on a message board I won't name, when Chris Snow of the Boston Globe (and now director of hockey operations for the Minnesota Wild) reported that Hee Seop Choi couldn't be sent to the minors without clearing waivers. Because most fans weren't familiar with the rule in question, the immediate assumption was that Snow was wrong. And one poster in particular ripped Snow, saying it was just "sloppy reporting" and then saying how every beat writer should learn the transaction rules.

Except, of course, Snow was right. How odd that the professional should know what he was talking about.

There is a rule rarely invoked in baseball that creates a situation where a player who has options remaining still has to clear waivers to be sent on an optional assignment. If the assignment is to begin at least three full calendar years from the date of the player's first appearance on a 25-man roster, then the player can not be sent on an optional assignment without first clearing major league waivers. These waivers are revocable, and players usually clear those waivers without incident.

klw
07-08-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm absolutely positive the rule exists (as I should be since it came straight from the Major League Rules). I also got it from an MLB insider when I was doing a story for Biz of Baseball about transactions. I just wasn't 100% sure of its application.

However, in support of my interpretation, Quatitos found this link, which was an article by Keith Law of ESPN, after I made my posts about needing to clear waivers:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php

Question: Does the rule still apply if (A)the player has not been on the MLB roster for at least 3 uninterrupted calendar years or if (B) he has previously cleared revocable waivers? Ex. A. Player is up for two years, is optioned out, brought back up and a year plus later is optioned out again.
B. Player has been up for 3.5 years but has cleared revocable waivers each August.

Big Klu
07-08-2011, 05:03 PM
I'm absolutely positive the rule exists (as I should be since it came straight from the Major League Rules). I also got it from an MLB insider when I was doing a story for Biz of Baseball about transactions. I just wasn't 100% sure of its application.

However, in support of my interpretation, Quatitos found this link, which was an article by Keith Law of ESPN, after I made my posts about needing to clear waivers:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php

Sounds like it's one of those things where GM's agree not to mess with each others' players because they want to be able to option their own players without worrying about waiver claims.

Brutus
07-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Question: Does the rule still apply if (A)the player has not been on the MLB roster for at least 3 uninterrupted calendar years or if (B) he has previously cleared revocable waivers? Ex. A. Player is up for two years, is optioned out, brought back up and a year plus later is optioned out again.
B. Player has been up for 3.5 years but has cleared revocable waivers each August.

Yes, it does. Once you first report to the Major League club, by rule the clock isn't interrupted. Any options on a player must be used during that time without being subjected to optional waivers. The exception to this rule is a 4th option. If a player qualifies for a 4th option, it never has to be subject to waivers -- except for when a player gets to 5 years service. At that point, a player can refuse any assignment to the minors.

Brutus
07-08-2011, 05:17 PM
Sounds like it's one of those things where GM's agree not to mess with each others' players because they want to be able to option their own players without worrying about waiver claims.

I mentioned in the Janish/Volquez thread that I'd heard a few times in the past there is a gentleman's agreement to do just that. I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard that as a possibility.

CrackerJack
07-08-2011, 05:52 PM
I mentioned in the Janish/Volquez thread that I'd heard a few times in the past there is a gentleman's agreement to do just that. I don't know if it's true or not, but I have heard that as a possibility.

If Bowden were still a GM, Janish would be a Nat by now.

cinreds21
07-08-2011, 07:14 PM
I'm absolutely positive the rule exists (as I should be since it came straight from the Major League Rules). I also got it from an MLB insider when I was doing a story for Biz of Baseball about transactions. I just wasn't 100% sure of its application.

However, in support of my interpretation, Quatitos found this link, which was an article by Keith Law of ESPN, after I made my posts about needing to clear waivers:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php

Thank you. That quote helped. I think I just didn't understand the rule. I think I do now. I wasn't, in any way, challenging what you said, by the way. I just didn't know if you misread it or misinterpreted it. Once again you know your stuff. Good job Brutus. And thanks.

Brutus
07-08-2011, 07:20 PM
Thank you. That quote helped. I think I just didn't understand the rule. I think I do now. I wasn't, in any way, challenging what you said, by the way. I just didn't know if you misread it or misinterpreted it. Once again you know your stuff. Good job Brutus. And thanks.

Not a problem. I took no offense to it whatsoever. I just wanted to reiterate I was confident of the rule... my only lingering question was whether it was still enforced (no reason to believe it wasn't but you never know lol) or whether there was a gentleman's agreement to not poach other players on option waivers.

I also had to go back and read it again to be sure I was properly conveying how it was applied as I hadn't looked at the rule in about a year or so.

Spitball
07-08-2011, 08:33 PM
Yes, Kurt Stillwell wore #11 when Barry Larkin wore #15, in 1986 and '87. Larkin switched to #11 in 1988 after Stillwell was traded to the Royals for Danny Jackson. I have never heard exactly why Larkin changed numbers, though.

Barry Larkin wanted to wear number 1 because he admired Ozzie Smith. He was told the number had not been issued since Fred Hutchinson had worn the number in 1964. Larkin had never heard of Hutch but accepted the reasoning. When Stillwell was traded, he opted for two number ones or #11.

Big Klu
07-08-2011, 09:01 PM
Barry Larkin wanted to wear number 1 because he admired Ozzie Smith. He was told the number had not been issued since Fred Hutchinson had worn the number in 1964. Larkin had never heard of Hutch but accepted the reasoning. When Stillwell was traded, he opted for two number ones or #11.

Thanks! That makes sense. I've occasionally wondered if Larkin actually wanted #1, and now I know. Wasn't Hutchinson's #1 already officially retired by that time?

WebScorpion
07-09-2011, 11:47 PM
Thanks! That makes sense. I've occasionally wondered if Larkin actually wanted #1, and now I know. Wasn't Hutchinson's #1 already officially retired by that time?Yes, it was retired in 1965. It was the first number to be permanently retired by the Reds. The number 5 was the first number the Reds ever retired. It was retired in 1940 for backup catcher Willard Hershberger, when he committed suicide in mid-season, but they reactivated it in 1942. That number has since been retired in honor of another Reds catcher. ;)

membengal
07-16-2011, 12:19 PM
Bump.

So far so good with Cozart. Glove and arm appear at least league average and hint at better as he settles in, and he can apparently hit a little at this level. And there is some speed there. Glad Walt finally brought him up. Wish it had been sooner, but better late than never. And I am for sure glad they tried this before burning prospects or, more importantly, money, on a guy like JJ Hardy.

VR
07-16-2011, 12:37 PM
Nice to see Cozart find some holes. Hopefully early good batting average will translate into walks and EBH.

membengal
07-17-2011, 06:54 PM
Yeah. Glad he's finally up. Huge day. Huge insurance run late. Good on Cozart.

LvJ
07-19-2011, 02:24 AM
Janish is 2-25 in Louisville. Ick.

reds44
07-19-2011, 02:34 AM
Dude is just bad.