PDA

View Full Version : Worst Thing That Happened Was Winning Division In 2010



FireDusty
07-08-2011, 08:30 AM
That will set us back 3 years and may cost us our window.

The cold hard truth is that Walt Jockerty did not want Dusty Baker back, but because the Reds arrived a year early and won the division in spite of BakerMetrics, Walt was forced to give Baker a contract extension.

Instead of a solid baseball man to oversee the youngsters, the Reds are now stuck with Baker.

Todd Gack
07-08-2011, 09:27 AM
While ultimately fans don't win games, it's rather amusing lots of folks were content JUST winning the division last year.

Just remember, we played 3 more games than the Pirates last year.

matt85webb
07-08-2011, 09:32 AM
That will set us back 3 years and may cost us our window.

The cold hard truth is that Walt Jockerty did not want Dusty Baker back, but because the Reds arrived a year early and won the division in spite of BakerMetrics, Walt was forced to give Baker a contract extension.

Instead of a solid baseball man to oversee the youngsters, the Reds are now stuck with Baker.

This might be the most ignorant thread i've seen. If you really think Dusty Baker is the problem with the Reds, then you haven't watched much baseball. The simple fact of why they are losing games is either the pitchers give up to many runs, and the fact that when they get very few runs they don't score. I don't think going to the playoffs is going to set us back, and Walt was probably gonna give him an extension anyways. "I think we got here sooner than a lot of people thought -- to the playoffs," general manager Walt Jocketty said. "I think a lot of it is due to Dusty's leadership."

mlh1981
07-08-2011, 09:35 AM
I'll take the memories.

Until last year, in the time that I've been actively following the team, I had never seen the Reds A). win their division, or B). play in the postseason.

The ending was disappointing, as has this season thus far, but I will never forget where I was and what I was doing when Jay Bruce hit that home run to win the central.

bubbachunk
07-08-2011, 09:42 AM
Yep, Dusty is the guy pitching 4.5 ERA ball, and OPSing .520

bounty37h
07-08-2011, 11:04 AM
That will set us back 3 years and may cost us our window.

The cold hard truth is that Walt Jockerty did not want Dusty Baker back, but because the Reds arrived a year early and won the division in spite of BakerMetrics, Walt was forced to give Baker a contract extension.

Instead of a solid baseball man to oversee the youngsters, the Reds are now stuck with Baker.

:wave: Hi BRM7576, why did you change your screen name?

KYRedLeg
07-08-2011, 11:20 AM
Pretty forward thinking from a guy named "FireDusty."

jwmann2
07-08-2011, 11:48 AM
Ok, so let's fire Dusty. Who did you have in mind to hire that would actually come here? Are you a Jerry Narron fan?

Who Dey Time
07-08-2011, 12:06 PM
This might be the most ignorant thread i've seen. If you really think Dusty Baker is the problem with the Reds, then you haven't watched much baseball. The simple fact of why they are losing games is either the pitchers give up to many runs, and the fact that when they get very few runs they don't score. I don't think going to the playoffs is going to set us back, and Walt was probably gonna give him an extension anyways. "I think we got here sooner than a lot of people thought -- to the playoffs," general manager Walt Jocketty said. "I think a lot of it is due to Dusty's leadership."

Agree 100% with this.

Any logical person can see how the team has improved in the Walt/Dusty era although a big kudos should be sent to Wayne Krivsky for some very good draft classes as well.

But when your screen name is FireDusty, you probably missed the logic train.

HatchMo
07-08-2011, 12:35 PM
So, some of you think we are winning more games because of dusty? I completely disagree with that, I personally think he throws more games away than any manager in the MLB. He stuck with Volquez too long, he stuck with reneria/janish too long, he stuck with Gomes too long, he is sticking with stubbs WAY too long. He is a TERRIBLE manager.

R_Webb18
07-08-2011, 01:03 PM
either way if he good or bad dusty trust his players. he trust the player can get the job done. yes he does some dumb things but it happens everywhereeee. he also does some good things. I think some people care more about dusty than winning.

Stray
07-08-2011, 01:07 PM
So, some of you think we are winning more games because of dusty? I completely disagree with that, I personally think he throws more games away than any manager in the MLB. He stuck with Volquez too long, he stuck with reneria/janish too long, he stuck with Gomes too long, he is sticking with stubbs WAY too long. He is a TERRIBLE manager.

Part of growing young talent and relying on them to win you games is living with the ups and downs that come with being a young player. I'm mainly talking about Stubbs here btw. He stuck with Bruce when he was in a rut and Bruce carried the team for a month in a hot stretch.

We don't have a bunch of proven seasoned vets on the team so we just have to accept that guys are going to be up and down at this point in their career.

mroby85
07-08-2011, 01:39 PM
I'll take the memories.

Until last year, in the time that I've been actively following the team, I had never seen the Reds A). win their division, or B). play in the postseason.

The ending was disappointing, as has this season thus far, but I will never forget where I was and what I was doing when Jay Bruce hit that home run to win the central.

This. If it's all Dusty's fault this year, why did they win last year with Dusty? Do you really think this team is soooo much better in terms of talent than St. Louis, or Milwaukee that being 3 games behind them is due to bad leadership? The worst thing that happened is having ownership that is content with their team winning a division, and not having goals higher than that.

LexRedsFan
07-08-2011, 02:00 PM
Fans like me, who were born in 1991 or so...really are deeply saddened we saw the Reds win last year.

I think I'll go throw away my Champions shirt just because it meant we brought Dusty back.

Do people even think before they post this crap?

izzy's dad
07-08-2011, 02:04 PM
Dusty does make some moves (or doesn't) that do leave me scratching my head. But doesn't every manager? When a guy wins as many games as Dusty has, he is doing most things very well. I don't think Dusty is perfect, no man is. He is very successful at what he does. I don't drink the Dusty Baker "kool aid," but I try to be realistic. What manager is going to do better with what we have taking the field every day? I have to give Dusty the benefit of the doubt, he was a Marine. Semper Fi, do or die. The idea that winning the division last year was detrimental to the success of the team this year is absurd. The poor off-season decision making of the front office, and reversal of fortune are the reason this team is not performing up to our standards. You have to use your brains and analyze things, knee jerk reactions are far too abundant on this board, lately.

Sorry if my bad spelling or poor grammar is offensive to anyone. I don't want to go down that road.

Vottomatic
07-08-2011, 03:21 PM
I wouldn't want to throw away last year's pennant.

BUT........I'm in the camp that thinks Dusty is overrated. I don't care if he had won more games than any manager in history, no manager/head coach in my 46 year lifetime has made me scratch my head more. Most of the teams he's had over the years, had great players and were destined to win.

He may be good for team chemistry, but he babysits his players feelings too much. Frankly, if I played on one of his teams, I'd be pissed at how long he leaves a pitcher in when everyone in the stadium can see that the wheels are falling off but Dusty. Or I'd be pissed that he's continuing to start a .190 hitting left fielder for 2 1/2 months that is probably costing us wins when we clearly have better options on the roster. I'd be pissed at alot of moves he makes.

I've said it before. This team has won despite Dusty. He's just lucky to have had talented teams.

brm7675
07-08-2011, 04:03 PM
This might be the most ignorant thread i've seen. If you really think Dusty Baker is the problem with the Reds, then you haven't watched much baseball. The simple fact of why they are losing games is either the pitchers give up to many runs, and the fact that when they get very few runs they don't score. I don't think going to the playoffs is going to set us back, and Walt was probably gonna give him an extension anyways. "I think we got here sooner than a lot of people thought -- to the playoffs," general manager Walt Jocketty said. "I think a lot of it is due to Dusty's leadership."

I would break it down 40% GM fault, 40% Manager/Coaches fault and 20% players fault.

redbear1986
07-08-2011, 06:32 PM
Can we simply include fans in any upcoming player trades? I suspect that Logan Morrison and a PTBNL for Wood and a train-full of shortsighted bandwagon "trailblazers" might be worth a phone call. Though on the way to Miami they might all cry "mutiny" and try to replace the train conductor.

DocRed
07-08-2011, 06:38 PM
Dusty is getting WAY too much leash from the success of last year....

redbear1986
07-08-2011, 07:37 PM
much better argument thesis than Baker needs to go.

FireDusty
07-08-2011, 11:53 PM
I'm 46. I grew up with teams that considered the season a failure if they won 91 games and were swept in the playoffs.

Young Reds fans who have the expectations of...well.....young Reds fans....would be happy to just have a winning season and a sweep in the playoffs.

BakerMetrics strikes again tonight.

Instead of having a lefty that throws 100 mph ready to go in case Coco ran into trouble, Chapman didn't even get a call from the dugout to even pick up a ball. BakerMetrics.

The result was predicatble. Because Coco is a former Brewer and Dusty wanted to stroke the ego of Cordero, he turned the game over to Coco because he didn't want to embarrass him by taking him out and having Chapman face Fielder. Even if Chapman walks Fielder, he is facing the lefty Kotsay instead of Cordero. It isn't about winning with Dusty. It's about stroking ego's. He doesn't want to win any way he can, Dusty wants to determine how he wins. BakerMetrics.

The result was predictable.

BakerMetrics.

This team will never realize it's potential with Dusty Baker managing this club.

Worst manager of a Reds team with talent in franchise history.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 12:09 AM
Can we simply include fans in any upcoming player trades? I suspect that Logan Morrison and a PTBNL for Wood and a train-full of shortsighted bandwagon "trailblazers" might be worth a phone call. Though on the way to Miami they might all cry "mutiny" and try to replace the train conductor.

Went to my first game in 1970. Watched a hall of fame manager for nearly a decade. Watched more very good managers after that. Seen so many games and watched so many managerial decisions, from personel decisions to in game strategy.......that the games number over 10,000. The individual situations over 250,000.

Dusty Baker manages against conventional wisdom more than any manager I have ever seen. His in game strategy is pathetic and has been called out by former players and managers numerous times. His player personel decisions are driven by emotional loyalties & personal friendships more than they are about what is best for the team.

Dusty owes his career record as a manager to the fact that he managed 2 steroid super stars in 2 cities with mega payrolls. Whenever Baker has been asked to actually manage, strategize and get more out of less, he has failed miserably and been promptly run out of town.

The same will happen here. Sadly, it will be a blown window of opportunity for the Reds as it will take 2 or 3 more years to extricate him.

redlegs2370
07-09-2011, 12:14 AM
How is this Dusty's fault? Until this recent road trip Cordero had been fantastic. Who else would you put in at the end of the game. It is not Dusty's fault that guys don't come through from time to time. This is the team that Dusty has been dealt. There is not a lot of margin for error with this team. We know that Rolen has a bad shoulder (which limits his production from time to time), Bruce & Stubbs are still young players who are going to have peaks and valleys, the pitching staff is relatively young and besides Arroyo they are going to have peaks and valleys. Arroyo has, for the most part, been a 2nd half pitcher. I could go on but my point is Dusty can't be blamed for lack of performance by his players. Bottom line is the Reds are a small market team who can't just go out and replace players who aren't producing & another manager isn't going to suddenly make Janish a .300 hitter, Homer not give up HR's, Volquez find the strike zone, Gomes start to hit consistently, etc..

BAKER12
07-09-2011, 12:20 AM
Updated standings by the baseball "experts;) on here
Reds team 44-0
Dusty 0-46

redlegs2370
07-09-2011, 12:20 AM
Dusty owes his career record as a manager to the fact that he managed 2 steroid super stars in 2 cities with mega payrolls. Whenever Baker has been asked to actually manage, strategize and get more out of less, he has failed miserably and been promptly run out of town.
.

Could the same be said for TLR when he was at Oakland & St. Louis? The Cardinals new stadium is built on steroid performance.

The fact is most of Baker's tenure as a manager has been in the steroid era. I'm sure you could say that many managers in the last 15 years won because of steroid superstars.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 12:34 AM
How is this Dusty's fault? Until this recent road trip Cordero had been fantastic. Who else would you put in at the end of the game. It is not Dusty's fault that guys don't come through from time to time. This is the team that Dusty has been dealt. There is not a lot of margin for error with this team. We know that Rolen has a bad shoulder (which limits his production from time to time), Bruce & Stubbs are still young players who are going to have peaks and valleys, the pitching staff is relatively young and besides Arroyo they are going to have peaks and valleys. Arroyo has, for the most part, been a 2nd half pitcher. I could go on but my point is Dusty can't be blamed for lack of performance by his players. Bottom line is the Reds are a small market team who can't just go out and replace players who aren't producing & another manager isn't going to suddenly make Janish a .300 hitter, Homer not give up HR's, Volquez find the strike zone, Gomes start to hit consistently, etc..Ummm, we have a left hander....ummm....who has thrown the fastest pitch in the history of the game.(that only dates back into the 1860's, sorry for the poor sample size) ummm...sorry....I'll calm down......sitting in the bullpen...who didn't even warm up.

Umm...that's how it's Dusty's fault.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 12:37 AM
Could the same be said for TLR when he was at Oakland & St. Louis?
Yes.

Next question.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 12:38 AM
Updated standings by the baseball "experts;) on here
Reds team 44-0
Dusty 0-46Now you are starting to get it. :beerme:

R_Webb18
07-09-2011, 12:43 AM
how many teams pull the closer there?

o btw not asking if u should.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 12:57 AM
how many teams pull the closer there?

o btw not asking if u should.
The good ones.

Maybe Rivera gets a pass there and Girardi sticks with, but even Girardi would be tempted when he saw that his closer had nothing. Lets not forget, no team in the history of baseball has ever had the option of a left hander who has thrown the fastest recorded pitch ever. We do, and he didn't even pick up a ball. He didn't even have his jacket off.

Pretty unique situation. Hard to determine who would do what with their closer in that situation because noone in the history of the sport has ever had a guy sitting in the bullpen like the Reds do.

bshall2105
07-09-2011, 01:02 AM
Three weeks ago Aroldis Chapman was being called a bust and the worst signing of the Jocketty era. Now people want him to come into a one run game in the 9th inning? You don't know what you're going to get out of Chapman coming in with runners on base in a high pressure situation, instead of taking a risk he decided to stick with the most reliable reliever we have had this season. It is hard to fault him for that.

BAKER12
07-09-2011, 01:06 AM
The good ones.

Maybe Rivera gets a pass there and Girardi sticks with, but even Girardi would be tempted when he saw that his closer had nothing. Lets not forget, no team in the history of baseball has ever had the option of a left hander who has thrown the fastest recorded pitch ever. We do, and he didn't even pick up a ball. He didn't even have his jacket off.

Pretty unique situation. Hard to determine who would do what with their closer in that situation because noone in the history of the sport has ever had a guy sitting in the bullpen like the Reds do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Dusty pulled the closer and put in a rookie with an ERA of 5.00 (Chapman) and lost the game I am sure you would not have questioned the move. You HATE Dusty, plain and simple. How do you know what Joe Girardi would do? Absolutely ridiculous statement/

ervinsm84
07-09-2011, 01:07 AM
fwiw, as much as i think bakers a terrible manager and even in the bottom 10% of major league managers, rarely does the managers decisions have any true "huge impact" over the course of the season on the teams win total. Generally a terrible manager, when everything is added up at the end of the year, only costs a team 1 or 2 games, and rarely passes 3.

good article discussing this
http://www.azsnakepit.com/2010/1/22/1201672/evaluating-baseball-managers-a

excerpt:

In terms of games won or lost per year, how much difference do you think a good manager now makes over a bad one?
In general, a few/couple games. Most managers aren’t that wildly different from each other. That said, it could potentially be more.

Well, sort of. What I mean is that a manager can be worth more based on how he interacts with the team. In and of himself he isn’t worth more than what I said above, but he can make a substantially larger impact than that. Get the right man in the right situation, and you can see a Billy Martin-esque improvement. Alternately, the wrong man in the wrong slot can kill a team.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 01:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Dusty pulled the closer and put in a rookie with an ERA of 5.00 (Chapman) and lost the game I am sure you would not have questioned the move. You HATE Dusty, plain and simple. How do you know what Joe Girardi would do? Absolutely ridiculous statement/

I disagree.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 01:11 AM
fwiw, as much as i think bakers a terrible manager and even in the bottom 10% of major league managers, rarely does the managers decisions have any true "huge impact" over the course of the season on the teams win total. Generally a terrible manager, when everything is added up at the end of the year, only costs a team 1 or 2 games, and rarely passes 3.

good article discussing this
http://www.azsnakepit.com/2010/1/22/1201672/evaluating-baseball-managers-a

excerpt:I disagree.

R_Webb18
07-09-2011, 01:11 AM
chapman is also wild sometimes and could just throw 4 balls

ervinsm84
07-09-2011, 01:14 AM
I disagree.

thanks for the explanation. as i said, i think dustys terrible and agree he should go. Still doesnt change that hes not the biggest problem, issue, and has no where near the impact on the game that youd like to believe in comparison to whoever else would be making decisions in his place. And really, the most intangible subjective part of evaluating a managers worth is how he manages the personalities and players, and from just about every report ive read, he seems to be loved on this front.


Are you familiar with the idea of WAR?

An MVP all time super season is gonna be worth ~9-11 WAR in a season.

an "average" every day starting position guy is around 2 WAR.

Im really sposed to believe that a manager can have a greater WAR than a legit starting player?

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 01:15 AM
chapman is also wild sometimes and could just throw 4 balls

I think you have the manage to the situation. Coco did not have anything from his first pitch. He's been very good this year & I'm not suggecting we remove him from the closer role. I am suggesting that Dusty should have had Chapman ready to go.

With all the heart attackes Coco has caused over the last couple years, noone would have faulted Baker for going to Chapman against 2 lefthanders.

Chapmans slider against Fielder = game over. Chapman has been lights out since returning. I think Chapman gave us the best chance to get the final out.

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 01:31 AM
Im really sposed to believe that a manager can have a greater WAR than a legit starting player?
In Dusty's case, yes. It's not just bad strategy in games, it's personel decisions.

I truly believe that Dave Sappelt would be a huge fan favorite right now if he were on this club. I truly believe that Drew Stubbs needs, at the very least, to be removed as an every single day player & maybe even sent to AAA for a while. I truly believe that Scott Rolen should have been moved to 6th in the lineup to start the year, not after 179 games with 8 homeruns from the cleanup spot. I truly believe that Todd Frazier should have already been here and already been worked into a rotation at 3rd Base with Scotty. I truly believe that Jonny Gomes is not a legitament everyday national league player and that Chris Heisey, if given the everyday job and the patience shown to birth right Bruce and birth right Stubbs, would have 15 to 20 homeruns right now. I truly believe that it should not have taken an intervention to get Cosart called up.

All of these mistakes with personel, plus in game strategy that has been called out by ex-players, ex-managers & announcers on a regualr basis, add up to a manager that has had a profoundly negative affect on this years team.

In my opinion, the Reds won 91 games last year because of miraculous come backs and last at bat wins.

Now that the Reds are having to win in a more conventional way, Dusty Baker is showing why he was run out of 2 cities and is now on his way out of a 3rd.

ervinsm84
07-09-2011, 01:43 AM
its not like dusty has free reign on if sappelt comes up. Pretty sure that Walt trumps him on that either way. Same thing with when cozart came up and if/when frazier will.

maybe dusty has something in his contract that i didnt know about, but afaik the GM was responsible for personnel decisions

FireDusty
07-09-2011, 01:51 AM
its not like dusty has free reign on if sappelt comes up. Pretty sure that Walt trumps him on that either way. Same thing with when cozart came up and if/when frazier will.

maybe dusty has something in his contract that i didnt know about, but afaik the GM was responsible for personnel decisions

Do you really believe that it didn't take Walt Jockerty having a closed door meeting with Dusty to get Cosart called up?

Really?

It takes Dustry ions to admit when he is wrong. It takes an intervention to get him to see even the most obvious things.

Jockerty forced Cosart onto this team against Bakers wishes. I gaurantee it.

ervinsm84
07-09-2011, 03:18 AM
i highly doubt that if the GM was sold on cozart a month ago, and that if he really wanted cozart there then, that he didnt have the authority to tell Dusty that Cozarts coming up and to play him whether he likes it or not.

NatiWolfpack24
07-09-2011, 03:22 AM
I can't wait until Dusty is fired and then you guys see how bad this team really gets. You'll be begging for him back. Be careful what you wish for. Throwing your manager under the bus the year after he won the division. Totally classless move by the OP and some of you so called Reds fans. Sports fan these days are a bunch of spoiled little punk ass *****es who wouldn't know the game of baseball if it walked up and ***** slapped them in the face. Ridiculous threads like this are allowed to go unchecked.

gilpdawg
07-09-2011, 05:35 AM
Ummm, we have a left hander....ummm....who has thrown the fastest pitch in the history of the game.(that only dates back into the 1860's, sorry for the poor sample size) ummm...sorry....I'll calm down......sitting in the bullpen...who didn't even warm up.

Umm...that's how it's Dusty's fault.
Cordero made the pitch he needed to make to McGehee. He just hit a crappy little dribbler. Bad break. That should have been an out. That's the play that cost us. If that play is made we likely go to extras.

You could say get Chapman ready for Fielder but they pitched around him anyway, and Chapman may not be ready for that spot after his recent "issues."

You're mad about the wrong part of the game. You should be mad that Leake was left in too long. You can't pull Cordero there. No manager in baseball pulls their closer there. Should they? Probably. But they don't. That's just the way the "book" is. I didn't write the "book" and I don't agree with it, but no other manager plays that any differently. I didn't see Axford get pulled last night when the Reds were hitting line drives all over the field. He was lucky to get through that. It's just not done.

Oh, and it's Jocketty, not Jockerty.