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cinreds21
07-10-2011, 03:17 AM
Ken Rosenthal mentioned that the Rockies have been getting calls for their ace, Ublando Jimenez. Now, that does not mean that he is available. However, if he is, I think Colorado would be a great trade partner. They have multiple holes that could be filled with Francisco (except he's injured), Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, or Frazier. I think if the Rockies do want to trade him, he would be a more practical option than Guthrie or any others who become available.

Thoughts?

Edit: Now looking more into it, they really don't match up. Helton is signed through 2013. They have a catching prospect, Wilin Rosario, who is gong to the Futures game (despite hitting .245) and they have a third/first baseman prospect who is doing really well in High-A.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 03:40 AM
He would be a good target and he got off to a rough start, although he's been awesome the last 7-8 starts.

He's signed through '12 with an option for '13 and '14 at a reasonable price.

How about Alonso, Volquez and Grandal?

Or what about Alonso, Volquez, Francisco and Frazier?

If Volquez is out of it, then what about Alonso, Wood and Francisco?

I'd probably try to inquire about getting Lindstrom or Reynolds as well.

camisadelgolf
07-10-2011, 04:02 AM
I don't think it's a fit. The Rockies would have almost no interest in a catcher or third base prospect, although I'm sure Yonder Alonso has to be looking pretty good to them. However, it would take a lot more than that just to get the conversation started.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 04:25 AM
I don't think it's a fit. The Rockies would have almost no interest in a catcher or third base prospect, although I'm sure Yonder Alonso has to be looking pretty good to them. However, it would take a lot more than that just to get the conversation started.

I don't think Wiggy is a legitimate long term solution for 3B, so I think 3B is definitely a possibility.

Alonso/Wood or Leake/Francisco

That might not be enough, but I think 1 more player (maybe Frazier) would be enough.

cinreds21
07-10-2011, 04:35 AM
I don't think Wiggy is a legitimate long term solution for 3B, so I think 3B is definitely a possibility.

Alonso/Wood or Leake/Francisco

That might not be enough, but I think 1 more player (maybe Frazier) would be enough.

You do realize it would probably take three prospects to get Ubaldo. Alosno cannot play third, so that doesn't justify your Wiggington comment. Francisco does, but he is hurt and will be out till August at the earliest. Frazier is our best bet as a starting point with what the Rockies have and need.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 04:42 AM
You do realize it would probably take three prospects to get Ubaldo. Alosno cannot play third, so that doesn't justify your Wiggington comment. Francisco does, but he is hurt and will be out till August at the earliest. Frazier is our best bet as a starting point with what the Rockies have and need.

I definitely understand that, which is why I suggested Alonso/Francisco and 1 of Leake/Wood. I know Francisco's injury complicates things, but maybe they would be willing to look past that? I don't know. If it takes Frazier to get it done, I'd add him in as well, although I'd hope to get 1 of the Rox relievers back as well if Frazier was added.

cincinnati chili
07-10-2011, 04:45 AM
I don't think it's a fit. The Rockies would have almost no interest in a catcher or third base prospect, although I'm sure Yonder Alonso has to be looking pretty good to them. However, it would take a lot more than that just to get the conversation started.

I don't think it's a fit either. The Rockies have Ubaldo under their control for another 2 or 3 years after this. They'd have to be blown away. I suspect that any offer they'd accept from the Reds would be irresponsible on the Reds' part. I think it would take 4 or 5 prospects, 2 of which are can't miss. I don't think 3 is enough. This guy started the all-star game last year, and after some early season velocity loss seems to be dominant again.

cinreds21
07-10-2011, 04:48 AM
I definitely understand that, which is why I suggested Alonso/Francisco and 1 of Leake/Wood. I know Francisco's injury complicates things, but maybe they would be willing to look past that? I don't know. If it takes Frazier to get it done, I'd add him in as well, although I'd hope to get 1 of the Rox relievers back as well if Frazier was added.

Ok, I misread how you had the trade. My bad.

cincinnati chili
07-10-2011, 05:12 AM
I definitely understand that, which is why I suggested Alonso/Francisco and 1 of Leake/Wood. I know Francisco's injury complicates things, but maybe they would be willing to look past that? I don't know. If it takes Frazier to get it done, I'd add him in as well, although I'd hope to get 1 of the Rox relievers back as well if Frazier was added.

This won't come close to getting it done even if you included all four of those players for Ubaldo.

Ubaldo > mediocrity+less-than-mediocrity+wild card+wild card.

I think you need to look at the package of players that the Padres got for Adrian Gonzalez and then add another good prospect. Ubaldo is more valuable to most teams than Adrian Gonzalez because he is cheap for at least 3 years and he has a legitimate shot at being one of the top handful of starting pitchers in the league in all 3 of those years. In other words, if he's truly available, he's among the most valuable commodities available anywhere in baseball.

If you want the Rockies to take your call, you will be willing to part with Mesoroco, Hamilton or Cosart (whichever one can move to 2B), Alonso, and a major-league ready starting pitcher with a plus fastball/change whom they can envision becoming a #2 MLB (or better) starter at some point. I don't think the Reds have that, aside from Chapman.

camisadelgolf
07-10-2011, 05:21 AM
Why they're not interested in a catcher or third base prospect:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=rosari001wil
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=arenad001nol

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 05:39 AM
This won't come close to getting it done even if you included all four of those players for Ubaldo.

Ubaldo > mediocrity+less-than-mediocrity+wild card+wild card.

I think you need to look at the package of players that the Padres got for Adrian Gonzalez and then add another good prospect. Ubaldo is more valuable to most teams than Adrian Gonzalez because he is cheap for at least 3 years and he has a legitimate shot at being one of the top handful of starting pitchers in the league in all 3 of those years. In other words, if he's truly available, he's among the most valuable commodities available anywhere in baseball.

If you want the Rockies to take your call, you will be willing to part with Mesoroco, Hamilton or Cosart (whichever one can move to 2B), Alonso, and a major-league ready starting pitcher with a plus fastball/change whom they can envision becoming a #2 MLB (or better) starter at some point. I don't think the Reds have that, aside from Chapman.

I agree that the fact that he's under control for so long at a great price makes him more valuable...but the 1 area I disagree with is of his value. Pitchers are much riskier than position players. I'm also willing to bet that the Red Sox were confident they could resign Adrian to a long extension as well.

I think Ubaldo is valuable and worth several good prospects, but I think you're overvaluing him somewhat. I'm not suggesting my package would get it done, but I think they could figure out something, especially if they got another team involved.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 05:46 AM
Why they're not interested in a catcher or third base prospect:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=rosari001wil
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=arenad001nol

I'm not blown away by Arenado personally. I think he's definitely a good prospect, but not a great one. And he's still got a ways to go before he'll be at the show. I'm not suggesting Francisco is a better prospect, but he's definitely more major league ready, which may be appealing.

Ghosts of 1990
07-10-2011, 12:31 PM
Again, might as well make a Matt Kemp thread. Neither guy is going anywhere.

Ubaldo will be a Rockie at the end of the year and most likely in a few years still.

SirFelixCat
07-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Ubaldo reminds me soooooo much of Volquez, it's scary.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2011, 03:12 PM
Ubaldo reminds me soooooo much of Volquez, it's scary.

The walks are like night and day. That alone separates them a ton.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 05:46 PM
The walks are like night and day. That alone separates them a ton.

Ubaldo's biggest weakness is he walks too many batters, so I'm not sure what you mean here?

But he knows how to get out of trouble a lot better than Volquez ever has.

cincinnati chili
07-10-2011, 05:49 PM
Ubaldo reminds me soooooo much of Volquez, it's scary.

Pre-surgery there were a lot of similarities in numbers. But in terms of personality and body type it's night and day. I don't believe in long term contracts for starting pitchers, period. But if I had to make an exception, I'd do it for him. His make-up is off the charts, his body will age better than Volquez's, and he's been locating his fastball really well in June and July (suggesting that whatever injury he had is behind him).

The even money is on Volquez being out of baseball in a few years and Jimenez being very good for another 10 years.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2011, 06:22 PM
Ubaldo's biggest weakness is he walks too many batters, so I'm not sure what you mean here?

But he knows how to get out of trouble a lot better than Volquez ever has.

Yes, he does allow walks. But nowhere near to the pace that Volquez does.

85 ip for Volquez. 55 walks allowed. 1.64 WHIP (1.50 career WHIP)
104 ip for Jimenez. 41 walks allowed. 1.30 WHIP (1.27 career WHIP)

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 06:26 PM
Yes, he does allow walks. But nowhere near to the pace that Volquez does.

85 ip for Volquez. 85 walks allowed.
104 ip for Jimenez. 41 walks allowed.

How about MLB Career?

Ubaldo: 3.93/9
Edinson: 4.89/9

Don't get me wrong...Edinson is worse, but Ubaldo isn't great with his walk rates either.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2011, 06:32 PM
LOL. I was just figuring that exact rate out. :O)

Yes, walks are clearly his worst aspect (Ubaldo) but he's better in every other aspect as well. I'd take him over Volquez is a heartbeat.

(Jimenez's walks for his career are higher than I originally thought. But as pitchers' they're not even close IMO)

cincinnati chili
07-10-2011, 07:47 PM
These are the two teams I watch the most, and I paid very close attention to the struggles of Volquez and Jimenez in the early season this year. Both had major trouble locating their pitches during prolonged stretches. The difference in body language between the two when they'd face adversity was astonishing. Volquez is great when he has his confidence, but looks crushed when he doesn't have it. There's no middle ground with him.