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redsfaninbsg
07-10-2011, 06:05 PM
Look, I'm not one to think that a manager has a big impact on games, but this has gotten to the point that it's ridiculous. It's one of those things that we don't have stats to examine how good/bad a manager is but I seriously doubt anybody that watches the Reds on a day to day basis thinks he's doing a good job. Cordero was obviously spent today and to leave him in the game with a full complement of players in the pen with the break coming up is inexcusable. Pythag is supposed to be great indication but when your manager keeps losing game after game it's no wonder the real record is not an indication of what the pythag record says the Reds should be. If nothing else, maybe this will be Dusty's last stint in professional baseball at the end of this campaign.

Brutus
07-10-2011, 06:06 PM
Oh look, another knee-jerk thread!

Quatitos
07-10-2011, 06:07 PM
Wasn't a thread almost exactly like this closed yesterday?

reds1869
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
Oh look, another knee-jerk thread!

45-47. I won't accuse anyone of a knee-jerk reaction at this point.

alexad
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
FIRE DUSTY! This team needs someone like Billy Martin as the manager. Kick someones butt and take names later. He has this team Oma complete mess. The bullpen is a mess.

redsfaninbsg
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
Oh look, another knee-jerk thread!

It aint April, or May, or even June. Simply put, he's not good. Call it knee-jerk, stupid, shameful, what have you. If you support him, more power to you.

Brutus
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
Wasn't a thread almost exactly like this closed yesterday?

Yes

redsfaninbsg
07-10-2011, 06:11 PM
For all I know, this one may get closed too. I think it's time we actually discuss the manager's qualities and faults. We discuss players til the end of time, I'm not sure why a logical thread on the manager wouldn't be ok?

RedRoser
07-10-2011, 06:14 PM
Couldn't agree more! It's getting tougher and tougher as we lose games we should have won, mainly due to managerial decisions. I would have never put Cordero on the mound three consecutive days, and if I did, it was obvious he needed to come out after hitting Weeks in the head.
This is just one of countless times I have wished that someone other than Dusty Baker was managing the Reds.
Call it knee jerk if you wish, but most of us who have been around this game for a long time and know baseball, well we know better.

Reds fan since '59 but not enjoying watching this team under current management. I've considered buying tickets on several occasions this season, but will not do so until something changes. It may very well be the first year since I was 7 years old that I don't take a trip to Cincinnati.

---'Roser

Redhook
07-10-2011, 06:18 PM
Oh look, another knee-jerk thread!

Wrong. 92 games of disappointing and uninspiring baseball led by a man that's not optimizing his team's chances of winning.

Kc61
07-10-2011, 06:26 PM
What makes this most upsetting is that the team played really hard today, tough, grind it out baseball.

Giving away a game like this hurts, especially against the first place club.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 06:29 PM
The whole series was painful sans Saturday. The Reds easily could've swept or at least won 3 out of 4, which would've had them sitting pretty.

I think Dusty definitely deserves blame here. Using Cordero in a non-save situation, using him 3 days in a row and 4 out of 5 is really unfathomable, especially when you consider how many pitches he threw over that time span.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 06:41 PM
Hire Billy....Fire Billy....Hire Bob Lemon....Fire Bob Lemon....Hire Billy again.

Fire...Calm....Fire....Calm. It worked for the Bronx Zoo....it can work for Cincy. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
07-10-2011, 06:47 PM
Couldn't agree more! It's getting tougher and tougher as we lose games we should have won, mainly due to managerial decisions. I would have never put Cordero on the mound three consecutive days, and if I did, it was obvious he needed to come out after hitting Weeks in the head.
This is just one of countless times I have wished that someone other than Dusty Baker was managing the Reds.Call it knee jerk if you wish, but most of us who have been around this game for a long time and know baseball, well we know better.

Reds fan since '59 but not enjoying watching this team under current management. I've considered buying tickets on several occasions this season, but will not do so until something changes. It may very well be the first year since I was 7 years old that I don't take a trip to Cincinnati.

---'Roser

Agreed.

Guacarock
07-10-2011, 06:54 PM
Look at it this way. We got a good look today at the D Train and then we saw a derailed train wreck. The problem with this wreck. It wasn't an accident. Most anyone with any sense could see it coming a mile off.

Raisor
07-10-2011, 07:08 PM
FIRE DUSTY! This team needs someone like Billy Martin as the manager. Kick someones butt and take names later. He has this team Oma complete mess. The bullpen is a mess.

Would you want to work for someone like that? Why do fans want people to manage a baseball team that you wouldn't want to work for in real life?

AtomicDumpling
07-10-2011, 07:22 PM
We need a manager that throws a tantrum after a tough loss. It helps the players hit and pitch better the next day. Right now we just have broadcasters that throw hissy fits, but Brennaman hissy fits are largely ineffective unless they are sleekly coordinated with a managerial tirade in the clubhouse. :D:eek:

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-10-2011, 07:29 PM
We need a manager that throws a tantrum after a tough loss. It helps the players hit and pitch better the next day. Right now we just have broadcasters that throw hissy fits, but Brennaman hissy fits are largely ineffective unless they are sleekly coordinated with a managerial tirade in the clubhouse.

The loss isn't really on any of the players except one (Cordero, again).

mbgrayson
07-10-2011, 07:53 PM
Both of these tough losses, Friday and today, could have been big for morale if we had won. Friday we had that great play at the plate by Hanigan, and today great pitching by D-Train and Aroldis Chapman. Not only did we lose both games after going into the 9th with a lead, but we lost the potential bump in the standings, in morale, and in momentum the wins would have given us going into the break.

BTW, Reds are now 13-21 in one-run ballgames. Ouch.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 07:57 PM
I just get this feeling that Dusty knows he might be on his last year and he would rather lose with his vets....in his own designated ways.....then take a chance on someone else, as obvious as it is. I have nothing else to fall back on here.

My country in the Copa America is doing the same thing after a good run at the 2010 WC....stubbornly sticking to playing a couple of older players and playing one of the best strikers in the world...out of his best position.

I know way different sports but they all seem to have fallacies within their management approach.

Cedric
07-10-2011, 08:26 PM
I wish Dusty had a brain in that "gut" of his.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 08:30 PM
From what i read of the post game....he still did not take any accountability nor it seems...was he even asked what he was thinking.

When you can be a Teflon Manager......why would you even bother to explain, rationalize or change your ways?

traderumor
07-10-2011, 08:31 PM
I wish Dusty had a brain in that "gut" of his.I always that was about another male body part ;)

thatcoolguy_22
07-10-2011, 08:33 PM
Wasn't a thread almost exactly like this closed yesterday?

Change the thread title and it probably wouldn't have.

Oh look, another knee-jerk thread!

A whole season of sporadic play and under performers leads to discussion over possible problems. Today by some was a microcosm of the season's entirety.



The board can rail Janish/LF/SS/SP/Cordero/whoever, but Dusty Baker is beyond criticism? When did this memo come out? Part of his job is game strategy, but a bigger part is player management/motivation. At this point he is struggling at 3 of the 3.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 08:35 PM
One of my favorites of the past, although I think Baker has gotten better...

http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/4/40/DustysDugoutDice.jpg

WMR
07-10-2011, 08:48 PM
A leopard doesn't change his spots...

Brutus
07-10-2011, 08:48 PM
The board can rail Janish/LF/SS/SP/Cordero/whoever, but Dusty Baker is beyond criticism? When did this memo come out? Part of his job is game strategy, but a bigger part is player management/motivation. At this point he is struggling at 3 of the 3.

I'm not sure what message board you've been reading, but Dusty gets his share of blame every single day. You can't go a single game thread without Dusty getting criticism.

And criticism and redundant criticism made in moments of overreaction are very different. Don't think you'll find anyone that believes Baker is above criticism.

thatcoolguy_22
07-10-2011, 09:02 PM
I'm not sure what message board you've been reading, but Dusty gets his share of blame every single day. You can't go a single game thread without Dusty getting criticism.

And criticism and redundant criticism made in moments of overreaction are very different. Don't think you'll find anyone that believes Baker is above criticism.

Timing issue asside, this thread is necessary. A thread devoted to the pros/cons of Dusty has been missing since the afterglow of last year.

Personally, I think the manager makes little difference in the outcome of a season. There are probably hundreds of stats people can use to compare managers, but the majority will have some flaws. Comparing manager to manager is jedi vs pokemon (sample sizes with the same team, different teams, using strategies based on current roster, etc. etc.) *Sample size noted* Baker is toting a 13-21 record in one loss games. He might not need to be fired, but debate is understandable.

SirFelixCat
07-10-2011, 09:05 PM
From what i read of the post game....he still did not take any accountability nor it seems...was he even asked what he was thinking.

When you can be a Teflon Manager......why would you even bother to explain, rationalize or change your ways?

This angers me.

Ron Madden
07-10-2011, 09:05 PM
I believe every member of RedsZone understands the game of baseball, every team is going to lose games but when you give games away in bunches it does get frustrating. Let' all just hope for a better second half of the season.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 09:07 PM
I thought this was very interesting. CTrent retweeted this, which I take as an endorsement that he pretty much feels how many at RZ do...

MisterRedlegs Good? Sure. He knows his clubhouse, players, but gets too rigid on roles, matchups. RT @bendeclue: Do you think [Baker's] a good manager?

Brutus
07-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Timing issue asside, this thread is necessary. A thread devoted to the pros/cons of Dusty has been missing since the afterglow of last year.

Personally, I think the manager makes little difference in the outcome of a season. There are probably hundreds of stats people can use to compare managers, but the majority will have some flaws. Comparing manager to manager is jedi vs pokemon (sample sizes with the same team, different teams, using strategies based on current roster, etc. etc.) *Sample size noted* Baker is toting a 13-21 record in one loss games. He might not need to be fired, but debate is understandable.

I don't understand why it's "necessary" to have to rail on Dusty. Don't mistake that as saying there's anything wrong with having the conversation, but you make it out to be a requirement just because he was celebrated last year, therefore he has to be criticized this season.

My question is: do you think the 13-21 record in 1-run games is indicative of his managerial ability? If so, wouldn't it be more prudent to see what his record is over the course of his career and compare it to other successful (and not-so successful) peers?

I'm not adverse to the idea that a manager's (limited or otherwise) ability to effect the outcome of a game can be manifested in 1-run games. I just think if there is anything to it, that's something we can get a better sense of by looking at a broader range of games. Managerial ability probably doesn't change much from season-to-season, especially not nearly as much as performance on the field which is susceptible to psychological impacts, injuries, etc.

757690
07-10-2011, 09:23 PM
I don't have a problem with any of Dusty's moves this season until today's. All the previous ones had a logical explanation and most often are just Monday morning quarterbacking.

But this one was inexcusable, and a result of two major flaws that Dusty has.

1. Keeps players in their roles until they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don't deserve that role anymore.

2. Believes that a team should have only one closer.

The problem that I had with bringing Cordero in was not that he had pitched in the last two days, but that he had pitched terribly in the last two days. He clearly didn't have his best stuff and with the All-Star break coming up, the logical thing to do was to give him some long rest.

One additional point, is that Cordero has always been a decent closer, but never a great one. Streaks like these are normal for him, as it is normal for him to bounce back and reel off a dozen or so great outings. I have faith that Cordero will be a decent closer the rest of the season, but that does mean a few more streaks like the one he just had.

MartyFan
07-10-2011, 09:27 PM
FIRE DUSTY! This team needs someone like Billy Martin as the manager. Kick someones butt and take names later. He has this team Oma complete mess. The bullpen is a mess.

His name is Pete MacKanin (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=phi&coachorstaffid=118093)...he is the right guy the same way Special K was and is the right guy.

edabbs44
07-10-2011, 10:16 PM
I thought this was very interesting. CTrent retweeted this, which I take as an endorsement that he pretty much feels how many at RZ do...

MisterRedlegs Good? Sure. He knows his clubhouse, players, but gets too rigid on roles, matchups. RT @bendeclue: Do you think [Baker's] a good manager?

That Dusty is a good manager?

OldXOhio
07-10-2011, 10:28 PM
We need a manager that throws a tantrum after a tough loss. It helps the players hit and pitch better the next day. Right now we just have broadcasters that throw hissy fits, but Brennaman hissy fits are largely ineffective unless they are sleekly coordinated with a managerial tirade in the clubhouse. :D:eek:

Managerial incompetence trumps tantrums and team meetings. I suggest the next time Dusty calls a closed door session to discuss team performance, he point the microscope back at himself to start with.

Boss-Hog
07-10-2011, 10:51 PM
As long as there is semi-intelligent discussion instead of just venting without any thought behind it, I'll probably be OK with the thread.

Mainspark
07-10-2011, 10:56 PM
In real-life situations, but not on this message board, I've been an ardent and loyal defender of Dusty's since he became Reds manager.
The ninth inning today marked the first time I found myself thinking that as good a person as he seems to be, it's time for him to go.

Roy Tucker
07-10-2011, 11:13 PM
Generally speaking, I can usually understand the moves that Dusty makes.

He's loyal to his players almost to a fault. When the game unfolds, I can plug the situation into my DustyMoves v1.0 app and out spits his move. You can't say that he isn't predictable.

Most of the time, he wants to show a player that he has confidence in him in a certain role at a certain time. Which often times works out and he really is a player's manager.

But I my app busted on him putting in Cordero today. Dusty is an intelligent man and it seemed blatantly obvious that Cordero was out of gas. Dusty has proved his loyalty to Cordero time and time again and he didn't need to today. Today was the day to say "he's not pitching today" and brought in Masset or Ondrusek. It wouldn't have been a disloyalty to Cordero.

edabbs44
07-10-2011, 11:19 PM
Generally speaking, I can usually understand the moves that Dusty makes.

He's loyal to his players almost to a fault. When the game unfolds, I can plug the situation into my DustyMoves v1.0 app and out spits his move. You can't say that he isn't predictable.

Most of the time, he wants to show a player that he has confidence in him in a certain role at a certain time. Which often times works out and he really is a player's manager.

But I my app busted on him putting in Cordero today. Dusty is an intelligent man and it seemed blatantly obvious that Cordero was out of gas. Dusty has proved his loyalty to Cordero time and time again and he didn't need to today. Today was the day to say "he's not pitching today" and brought in Masset or Ondrusek. It wouldn't have been a disloyalty to Cordero.

Ondrusek, when today would have been 5 straight games?

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2011, 12:13 AM
That Dusty is a good manager?

That he puts too much emphasis on roles and matchups unnecessarily.

reds44
07-11-2011, 12:35 AM
Dusty has his flaws, just like any other manager does. He's a good manager though, and in fact I love the fact that he learns from his mistakes. He's a better manager now than he was in Chicago or San Francisco.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 12:38 AM
We can go one by one and ridicule every player/manager for a move that they made during the 2011 season. Things happen. I don't think the Reds are floundering in 4th place because of Dusty...it is because of lack of execution.

For crying out loud, what would the reaction be on here had Dusty done what LaGenius did the other night...eliminating NeckTat from the game cause he flubbed the lineup card at the start. Seriously...the board would have crashed.

Dusty has his pros and cons, just like anyone.

/But yeah he screwed up pitching Cordero Sat night. No debate needed.

Ron Madden
07-11-2011, 12:39 AM
Ondrusek, when today would have been 5 straight games?

Ondrusak only threw 7 pitches Friday and 14 pitches Saturday,

Bill Bray only threw 6 pitches Friday and 10 pitches Saturday, per Lance McAlister's blog.

The blame for today's loss should be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 12:41 AM
Ondrusak only threw 7 pitches Friday and 14 pitches Saturday,

Bill Bray only threw 6 pitches Friday and 10 pitches Saturday, per Lance McAlister's blog.

The blame for today's loss should be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker.

It is never that simple.

Devil's Advocate: How much blame does Bruce get for getting thrown at at third?

Ron Madden
07-11-2011, 12:49 AM
It is never that simple.

Devil's Advocate: How much blame does Bruce get for getting thrown at at third?

The point is we had the lead going into the 9TH ininng.

Dusty blew it by going with an over worked and ineffective Cordero.

To make matters worse he left him out there after it was apparent to everyone that Cordero didn't have his good stuff or any sign of command of his pitches.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 12:55 AM
The point is we had the lead going into the 9TH ininng.

Dusty blew it by going with an over worked and ineffective Cordero.

To make matters worse he left him out there after it was apparent to everyone that Cordero didn't have his good stuff or any sign of command of his pitches.

I agree, but as blame-doler-outer...how much of the blame pie would you assign to Bruce?

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2011, 12:57 AM
I agree, but as blame-doler-outer...how much of the blame pie would you assign to Bruce?

A lot less and it's not because of any bias. Bruce was being aggressive. Dusty put Cordero in the game knowing he had been overworked the last 5 days (including a non save situation) and even after Cordero got in trouble, still continued to let him pitch.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 12:59 AM
A lot less and it's not because of any bias. Bruce was being aggressive. Dusty put Cordero in the game knowing he had been overworked the last 5 days (including a non save situation) and even after Cordero got in trouble, still continued to let him pitch.

After not busting it out of the box.

reds44
07-11-2011, 01:00 AM
After not busting it out of the box.
95% of players don't bust it out of a box on a play like that. I'm not saying it's right, but singling Bruce out for that is not fair.

Ron Madden
07-11-2011, 01:00 AM
I agree, but as blame-doler-outer...how much of the blame pie would you assign to Bruce?

Blame-doller-outer. :laugh:

I'm not the blame-doller-outer but in my opinion Dusty gets all the blame for today's loss. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 01:01 AM
All I'm getting at is I don't think Dusty is the reason the Reds are 4 back at the break. I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea. But do you guys really think it is Dusty, or is it lack of performance?

kaldaniels
07-11-2011, 01:02 AM
95% of players don't bust it out of a box on a play like that. I'm not saying it's right, but singling Bruce out for that is not fair.

Fair to me, and I love Jay Bruce. 162 game season, everyone is gonna screw up sometime. I just call it as I see it and move on.

/And again, Dusty screwed up the last 2 days as well.

757690
07-11-2011, 01:15 AM
Hundreds of actions and decisions are made during a game. Dozens of them directly influence who wins.

Dusty's decision to put in Cordero was just one of those. It happened at the end, so it's natural to overvalue it, but it really was just one of many reasons why the Reds lost.

Let's put it this way, if Cordero did get the save, would the victory be because of the decision to put him in?

Slyder
07-11-2011, 01:25 AM
We can go one by one and ridicule every player/manager for a move that they made during the 2011 season. Things happen. I don't think the Reds are floundering in 4th place because of Dusty...it is because of lack of execution.

For crying out loud, what would the reaction be on here had Dusty done what LaGenius did the other night...eliminating NeckTat from the game cause he flubbed the lineup card at the start. Seriously...the board would have crashed.

Dusty has his pros and cons, just like anyone.

/But yeah he screwed up pitching Cordero Sat night. No debate needed.

*see Corey Patterson making 2 outs in an inning*

BoydsOfSummer
07-11-2011, 04:18 AM
It broke my heart when they hired him.

mth123
07-11-2011, 04:19 AM
Hundreds of actions and decisions are made during a game. Dozens of them directly influence who wins.

Dusty's decision to put in Cordero was just one of those. It happened at the end, so it's natural to overvalue it, but it really was just one of many reasons why the Reds lost.

Let's put it this way, if Cordero did get the save, would the victory be because of the decision to put him in?

Agreed. Lots of other things happened in the game to make this sitiation. More runs on the board might have made it all moot. Dusty screwed up though. That is clear. I just think its only one of many reasons that the Reds went 2-5 on a trip to its top division rivals who were both basically missing their top guys (Pujols missed most of the Cards' series and Braun didn't play in Milwaukee).

GAC
07-11-2011, 05:58 AM
All I'm getting at is I don't think Dusty is the reason the Reds are 4 back at the break. I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea. But do you guys really think it is Dusty, or is it lack of performance?

I thoroughly agree. Dusty is a good manager. Did I get somewhat upset in yesterday's game? Sure did. Was it Dusty's fault when in the 6th Gomes gets doubled off 1B on the sharp line drive by RH to the SS? Dontrelle comes up next and doubles down the RF line. Man! What could have been there.

Where I questioned Dusty...

8th inning.... Bruce is on 2B with 1 out. Dusty lets Gomes face RHer Roe. We all know the story with Gomes and RH'd pitching, and in this AB he lived up to that rep by K'ing and looking bad doing so. I would have PH Lewis for Gomes in that situation, who has pretty solid numbers vs Rhers.

I wouldn't have used Cordero either in the 9th. They had Masset warming up in the pen, and Dusty had a good excuse, seeing Coco's performance over the previous two days, to "rest" him and use Nick.

But as it's been stating before - Dusty is loyal to his players, and Coco is his closer. His allowing Coco to close was probably a "vote of confidence" after two blown saves.

It has nothing to do with his performance over this series, but I'll be glad when Cordero is gone after this season. We have guys who, IMO, can fill that role, and not cost us 12M/year.

Silver lining? Kudos to Willis. He looked good overall. The guy is a competitor. He may very well be a upgrade this year in comparison to Volquez. We'll see.

Our pitching is improving (stabilizing overall). IMO, it's our offense. Too much inconsistency. I still say Stubbs has to come out of the leadoff spot, as well as Rolen in cleanup.

But again - this gets back to Dusty and his "loyalties". But I don't put the blunt of this team's performance this year (lethargic) solely on Baker.

hebroncougar
07-11-2011, 07:37 AM
My biggest gripe (after going to Cordero), is not having someone warming up beside him after how he's pitched the last 2 days, and seeing how he didn't have it today. At least give yourself the option.

edabbs44
07-11-2011, 07:58 AM
95% of players don't bust it out of a box on a play like that. I'm not saying it's right, but singling Bruce out for that is not fair.

100% of closers have had a bad stretch in their career and have pitched out of it.

edabbs44
07-11-2011, 07:59 AM
My biggest gripe (after going to Cordero), is not having someone warming up beside him after how he's pitched the last 2 days, and seeing how he didn't have it today. At least give yourself the option.

This I can't disagree with.

edabbs44
07-11-2011, 08:01 AM
Ondrusak only threw 7 pitches Friday and 14 pitches Saturday,

Bill Bray only threw 6 pitches Friday and 10 pitches Saturday, per Lance McAlister's blog.

The blame for today's loss should be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker.

5 days in a row is a lot. Friday and Saturday were on top of Wednesday and Thursday.

Bill Bray, no matter what anyone claims, is a glorified loogy.

cumberlandreds
07-11-2011, 09:27 AM
From what i read of the post game....he still did not take any accountability nor it seems...was he even asked what he was thinking.

When you can be a Teflon Manager......why would you even bother to explain, rationalize or change your ways?

That's deplorable that no one ask Baker about his reasoning for using Cordero yesterday. There were two questions that had to be asked:

Why did you use Cordero for a third straight day? and

Why did you leave him in the game in the 9th inning,especially after he walked a weak hitting Kotteras?

I don't care if Dusty goes off and curses you a blue streak you have to ask those questions. If he says no comment then so be it. You did your job. But it seems the reporters didn't. It's a shame there can't be at least one reporter who can ask the tough questions to a manager. The Reds fans deserve better than that.

RichRed
07-11-2011, 10:13 AM
My biggest gripe (after going to Cordero), is not having someone warming up beside him after how he's pitched the last 2 days, and seeing how he didn't have it today. At least give yourself the option.

Arroyo was actually warming up beside Cordero, at least for part of the time.

hebroncougar
07-11-2011, 10:29 AM
Arroyo was actually warming up beside Cordero, at least for part of the time.

Nah.....he was getting his throwing in, not warming up. I mean Masset, or Bray. I'd have even strongly considered letting Chapman start the ninth (can't remember the PH situation), he was money in the 7th and 8th.

bucksfan2
07-11-2011, 10:37 AM
For the most part I have thought Dusty is a good manager. Sat night I was watching the game with a buddy of mine and he said "Do you still put Cordero in the game after they broke it open in the 10th?" My answer was yes. Even though it wasn't a save situation you get him back in there after the debacle that was the night before.

Yesterday was the first time I actually thought "would you fire Dusty?" This team hasn't played with the same sense of urgency this season. But putting Cordero in there yesterday was just wrong. They should have won 3 games against the Brewers this past weekend. You blow saves from time to time but what happened against Milwaukee was unacceptable. IMO the manager gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses, but a team with high expectations playing poor baseball is a reflection of its manager. If he wasn't signed to a multi year deal it would be prime time to make a coaching change.

RichRed
07-11-2011, 10:43 AM
Nah.....he was getting his throwing in, not warming up. I mean Masset, or Bray. I'd have even strongly considered letting Chapman start the ninth (can't remember the PH situation), he was money in the 7th and 8th.

That makes sense. I thought maybe he was warming up for an out-of-the-box relief appearance, with the All-Star break coming up. Or most likely, I just wanted to believe that Cordero wasn't really going out there again, after what we saw the previous two nights.

CySeymour
07-11-2011, 11:06 AM
I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea. But do you guys really think it is Dusty, or is it lack of performance?

To be fair, this is correct. The lack of performance from too many key players has put the team where they are today. However, I think what is upsetting a lot of posters is Baker tends to make too many decisions out of loyalty instead of putting the best player in a particular spot to succeed. Yeah, Coco is the "closer", but it was clear he didn't have it and hadn't been right the last couple of games, so why not at least have another option ready to go when the ninth started.

OldXOhio
07-11-2011, 02:57 PM
To be fair, this is correct. The lack of performance from too many key players has put the team where they are today. However, I think what is upsetting a lot of posters is Baker tends to make too many decisions out of loyalty instead of putting the best player in a particular spot to succeed. Yeah, Coco is the "closer", but it was clear he didn't have it and hadn't been right the last couple of games, so why not at least have another option ready to go when the ninth started.

I just don't see why telling Cordero "you've thrown a lot this week, I know you're the closer, but you've been overworked, let's let X handle this one" would have been so difficult for Baker or Francisco to handle?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-11-2011, 03:04 PM
That's deplorable that no one ask Baker about his reasoning for using Cordero yesterday. There were two questions that had to be asked:

Why did you use Cordero for a third straight day? and

Why did you leave him in the game in the 9th inning,especially after he walked a weak hitting Kotteras?

I don't care if Dusty goes off and curses you a blue streak you have to ask those questions. If he says no comment then so be it. You did your job. But it seems the reporters didn't. It's a shame there can't be at least one reporter who can ask the tough questions to a manager. The Reds fans deserve better than that.

You can bet that question would be asked in NYC, Philly, Boston, etc. Our writers/reporters don't generally rock the boat like that for some reason.

CySeymour
07-11-2011, 03:06 PM
You can bet that question would be asked in NYC, Philly, Boston, etc. Our writers/reporters don't generally rock the boat like that for some reason.

And if they do, Dusty flips his lid. He really seems to me to be very thin skinned about such things. And least more thin skinned then the manager of a major league team should be.

cumberlandreds
07-11-2011, 03:22 PM
And if they do, Dusty flips his lid. He really seems to me to be very thin skinned about such things. And least more thin skinned then the manager of a major league team should be.

And if he flips his lid so be it. That's two questions that have to be asked. I'm sure he would have given it his standard line that Cordero's his man and that's that. At least if he did flip his lid that would liven things up a bit. Maybe it would give the Reds that chip on the shoulder they may need. Who knows??

durl
07-11-2011, 06:05 PM
It is never that simple.

Devil's Advocate: How much blame does Bruce get for getting thrown at at third?

I see what you're saying but plays involving hustle are a bit different than that of a pitcher...a closing one at that. The ball could be mis-played, the throw could be off, the fielder could not apply the tag...a lot could go "wrong" for Bruce to be safe.

When your closer fails at his ONLY job (throw strikes and get people out), it's very easy to point blame. Cordero has 17 saves this year, but he now has the 2nd worst Save Percentage in the NL (among regular closers) at 77%. Kimbrel with the Braves has just as many blown saves (5) but he's also has 11 more Saves than Cordero.

Basically, if Coco will negate a win 25% of the time he takes the mound, I'd have a hard time putting him out there if I were a manager.

Griffey012
07-11-2011, 07:44 PM
My biggest gripe (after going to Cordero), is not having someone warming up beside him after how he's pitched the last 2 days, and seeing how he didn't have it today. At least give yourself the option.

I am pretty pro Dusty and this I cannot disagree with at all. I am actually completely and utterly confused. I happened to miss the 8th inning and did not even realize Chapman went the 7th and 8th, I assumed Masset tossed the 8th, which made me even more irate.

I take that back, I wasn't even irate because I was so absolutely dumbfounded. I have never been so happy to see the all-star break here.