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View Full Version : Choko is a joke.



alexad
07-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Time for a change. Way to go Dusty. Run him out there everyday. Great. Super.

RANDY IN INDY
07-10-2011, 05:07 PM
Three this week, three in a row. I usually don't get upset enough to post anything, but Cordero has been flat out awful, and Dusty keeps running him out there. Unacceptable on both ends.

reds1869
07-10-2011, 05:12 PM
This loss falls squarely on Dusty even though Coco was the one pitching. He clearly didn't have it yet Dusty left him out their to implode. Why not at least let Masset take his shot? Cordero has done very well this year but trotting him out there today was simply a bad idea; staying with him was even worse.

Kc61
07-10-2011, 05:15 PM
I usually excuse losses. Usually it's just the way the ball bounces.

Today was absolutely ridiculous. The Reds should refund my EI package for this.

Coco, overused this weekend and ineffective goes out there. Day before the ASB. Whole staff is available.

Lefty hitters galore hit in the ninth. Yet Bray is sitting in the bullpen.

Masset doesn't even get into the game.

This weekend was the most maddening weekend. The players must be upset. I know the fans are.

The Reds are simply giving games away. Just giving them away.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2011, 05:16 PM
Other than this ONE SERIES, Cordero has been fantastic all year long. This loss is totally on Dusty IMO. He shouldn't have used him yesterday to begin with. He had a 5 run lead and had just thrown 30+ pitches the day before. He should've sat last night in favor of Carlos Fisher (who never even got used during his callup). But because he used him last night...now he DEFINITELY should've been off-limits today. The 9th should've belonged to Masset tonight without question. This one is TOTALLY on Dusty...not Cordero.

Always Red
07-10-2011, 05:19 PM
Time for a change. Way to go Dusty. Run him out there everyday. Great. Super.


This loss falls squarely on Dusty even though Coco was the one pitching. He clearly didn't have it yet Dusty left him out their to implode. Why not at least let Masset take his shot? Cordero has done very well this year but trotting him out there today was simply a bad idea; staying with him was even worse.

Cordero has pitched great this year until lately.

I'm with reds1869, I blame this strictly on Dusty for being so dogmatic in his roles. If a guy doesn't have it or has been overworked, get him the heck out of there.

And he burned him last night, with no reason.

Even a third inning of Chapman would have resulted in a victory, IMO.

RedRoser
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
Dontrelle Willis deserved to get a win in this game. Just plain unacceptable. Reds need 1) a new manager and 2) a new closer. I vote for 1) almost anyone else and 2) Chapman or Massett, preferably Chapman.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2011, 05:22 PM
How long before this thread gets closed down?

As someone else suggested, I don't blame Cordero, I blame Dusty here. 3 days in a row (including 1 in a non-save situation) and 4 out of the last 5 and some of those innings weren't short. The dude is gassed.

Homer Bailey
07-10-2011, 05:22 PM
Other than this ONE SERIES, Cordero has been fantastic all year long. This loss is totally on Dusty IMO. He shouldn't have used him yesterday to begin with. He had a 5 run lead and had just thrown 30+ pitches the day before. He should've sat last night in favor of Carlos Fisher (who never even got used during his callup). But because he used him last night...now he DEFINITELY should've been off-limits today. The 9th should've belonged to Masset tonight without question. This one is TOTALLY on Dusty...not Cordero.

Cordero's FIP is the highest it's ever been with the Reds. He's been awful all year, just extremely lucky. And his luck is running out.

He's probably the worst reliever on the Reds.

Kc61
07-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Other than this ONE SERIES, Cordero has been fantastic all year long. This loss is totally on Dusty IMO. He shouldn't have used him yesterday to begin with. He had a 5 run lead and had just thrown 30+ pitches the day before. He should've sat last night in favor of Carlos Fisher (who never even got used during his callup). But because he used him last night...now he DEFINITELY should've been off-limits tonight. The 9th should've belonged to Masset tonight without question. This one is TOTALLY on Dusty...not Cordero.

Not really. The loss is also on Cordero.

I've been a Coco supporter but this season - even when successful - he has been pitching on guile and experience. He does not have top end stuff anymore.

The Reds haven't needed a closer too much lately. This series they finally did. They had two games with a modest lead in the ninth and he blew them both for losses.

Coco hasn't been overworked generally. This weekend he was finally needed and he pitched horribly.

The manager and the closer are both to blame.

RANDY IN INDY
07-10-2011, 05:24 PM
Cordero's FIP is the highest it's ever been with the Reds. He's been awful all year, just extremely lucky. And his luck is running out.

He's probably the worst reliever on the Reds.

I'm tending to agree with you about the lucky thing. Always an adventure with Cordero.

RANDY IN INDY
07-10-2011, 05:24 PM
Not really. The loss is also on Cordero.

I've been a Coco supporter but this season - even when successful - he has been pitching on guile and experience. He does not have top end stuff anymore.

The Reds haven't needed a closer too much lately. This series they finally did. They had two games with a modest lead in the ninth and he blew them both for losses.

Coco hasn't been overworked generally. This weekend he was finally needed and he pitched horribly.

The manager and the closer are both to blame.

On the money!

Ron Madden
07-10-2011, 05:36 PM
Not really. The loss is also on Cordero.

I've been a Coco supporter but this season - even when successful - he has been pitching on guile and experience. He does not have top end stuff anymore.

The Reds haven't needed a closer too much lately. This series they finally did. They had two games with a modest lead in the ninth and he blew them both for losses.

Coco hasn't been overworked generally. This weekend he was finally needed and he pitched horribly.

The manager and the closer are both to blame.

That's the way I see too.

RedsManRick
07-10-2011, 05:50 PM
Cordero has always struggled pitching 3 consecutive days. Dusty is supposed to be a master at putting guys in a position to succeed. He didn't. Sure, Cordero shares some blame. But how much can you can you blame a guy for not doing something he's not really capable of doing?

Dusty had two chances to avoid it today; not pitching him to begin with and getting him out of there where he clearly didn't have it. He failed in both.

Brutus
07-10-2011, 05:56 PM
Cordero has always struggled pitching 3 consecutive days. Dusty is supposed to be a master at putting guys in a position to succeed. He didn't. Sure, Cordero shares some blame. But how much can you can you blame a guy for not doing something he's not really capable of doing?

Dusty had two chances to avoid it today; not pitching him to begin with and getting him out of there where he clearly didn't have it. He failed in both.

Do you have any stats, for his career, that show he's "struggled" when pitching 3 consecutive games?

His career stats based on zero days rest show his strikeout and walk rates are extremely similar to that of 1 day rest and better than that of 2 days rest. So I'm curious where people are getting this perception that seems otherwise uncorroborated.

I'll offer a theory: Cordero's rates haven't been dominant to begin with, so the effects of balls in play just tend to even out a bit more after 3 consecutive appearances and it seems like he's struggling. The reality is that his fielding independent metrics aren't a ton different.

corkedbat
07-10-2011, 05:59 PM
At least he's only being paid $13m. :bang:

TeamBoone
07-10-2011, 06:14 PM
Time for a change. Way to go Dusty. Run him out there everyday. Great. Super.

I don't think overuse is the problem. If a closer can't pitch one inning several days in a row, he shouldn't be closing. Period.

But! It doesn't mean I don't partially blame Dusty. The man just doesn't seem to know when to pull a pitcher. After the tying run scored, why on earth would you allow him to pitch the bases loaded? He should have been on a short leash to begin with after blowing the lead on Friday.

These last two series were SO important and IMHO, Dusty is the one who screwed most of them up by not pulling pitchers when they needed it. I guess he'd rather lose than go to his bullpen early.

Today's game just enraged me. Seems every other pitcher was able to keep the l-run lead intact. But not the closer! Soooo ticked at Cordero... he needs to get it together. So ticked at Dusty... he needs to get pitchers out of there before it's too late. He does it with the starters too. He waits until the team is five runs in the hole, and then maybe starts thinking about it. Ugh!

I think the rest of the team should beat them up!

TeamBoone
07-10-2011, 06:18 PM
Oh, and another thing. I'm sick to death of listening to the announcers giving Cordero the benefit of the doubt because he has such a good record. You know what? His "good record" is ridiculously misleading and if two baseball announcers can't see that then there's something wrong with them. Cordero has a good record because, more often than not, the rest of the team save HIM! Yes, he's had a few where he really really deserved the save, but not often.

Raisor
07-10-2011, 06:21 PM
Choko? Is that really what RZ has come to?

nate
07-10-2011, 06:42 PM
Choko? Is that really what RZ has come to?

I hope not.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 06:47 PM
I don't think overuse is the problem. If a closer can't pitch one inning several days in a row, he shouldn't be closing. Period.

But! It doesn't mean I don't partially blame Dusty. The man just doesn't seem to know when to pull a pitcher. After the tying run scored, why on earth would you allow him to pitch the bases loaded? He should have been on a short leash to begin with after blowing the lead on Friday.

These last two series were SO important and IMHO, Dusty is the one who screwed most of them up by not pulling pitchers when they needed it. I guess he'd rather lose than go to his bullpen early.

Today's game just enraged me. Seems every other pitcher was able to keep the l-run lead intact. But not the closer! Soooo ticked at Cordero... he needs to get it together. So ticked at Dusty... he needs to get pitchers out of there before it's too late. He does it with the starters too. He waits until the team is five runs in the hole, and then maybe starts thinking about it. Ugh!

I think the rest of the team should beat them up!


I almost feel sorry for Cordero. He needed to be saved from himself today, and he needed his manager to do it.

I give him credit for at least....standing there and answering reporters questions like a man, didn't get angry or short and took the heat that Baker richly deserves.

Is it the right move to send a closer back to hill a night after he flounders? Sometimes, but in this situation, it was just plain foolishness.

Always Red
07-10-2011, 06:50 PM
I almost feel sorry for Cordero. He needed to be saved from himself today, and he needed his manager to do it.

I give him credit for at least....standing there and answering reporters questions like a man, didn't get angry or short and took the heat that Baker richly deserves.

Is it the right move to send a closer back to hill a night after he flounders? Sometimes, but in this situation, it was just plain foolishness.

great observation. :beerme:

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 06:52 PM
great observation. :beerme:


You know....I am watching this underperforming team.....and I am watching my country underperform in the Copa America.....and it really was such a much better summer last year with the baseball season and World Cup. What a difference a year makes.

Always Red
07-10-2011, 07:04 PM
You know....I am watching this underperforming team.....and I am watching my country underperform in the Copa America.....and it really was such a much better summer last year with the baseball season and World Cup. What a difference a year makes.

it does suck, but with baseball there is always hope.

After 1971, came 1972-1980.

And these Reds have a lot of the same type of talent as that 1970 team, at this point.

We need to find Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham and Cesar Geronimo, and we'll be set. :D

But mostly, they need to pitch better. Historically, when the Reds have pitched well, they have won. When they slug with no pitching, they are average.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 07:08 PM
it does suck, but with baseball there is always hope.

After 1971, came 1972-1980.

And these Reds have a lot of the same type of talent as that 1970 team, at this point.

We need to find Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham and Cesar Geronimo, and we'll be set. :D

But mostly, they need to pitch better. Historically, when the Reds have pitched well, they have won. When they slug with no pitching, they are average.


Wish it was easier to trade like those days then now...where contracts.....and the tendency to horde young players would never have resulted now in getting Frank Duffy for George Foster.

traderumor
07-10-2011, 07:12 PM
Choko? Is that really what RZ has come to?Anyway, its spelled wrong. It would be Choco is a joko.

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Anyway, its spelled wrong. It would be Choco.

Anything is better than Coco! ;)

WMR
07-10-2011, 07:24 PM
Don't blame Choko, blame Duhsty. :D

pedro
07-10-2011, 07:30 PM
Don't blame Choko, blame Duhsty. :D

Not to blame you specifically WMR, but this is the type of stuff that makes RZ a shadow of its' former self. The quality of discussion on Redszone this season may very well be even more disappointing the Reds themselves.

WMR
07-10-2011, 07:34 PM
Not to blame you specifically WMR, but this is the type of stuff that makes RZ a shadow of its' former self. The quality of discussion on Redszone this season may very well be even more disappointing the Reds themselves.

Meh, I was joking, lighten up a little bit.

Reds1
07-10-2011, 08:03 PM
I blame Dusty on this one. 4 day break - anyone can pitched, but lets pitch the guy who has thrown 50 in 2 days and not pitching well. I mean even after the bean to make bases loaded try someone else, maybe a ground ball pitcher. oh well. Have to think about this one for awhile.

TeamBoone
07-10-2011, 08:04 PM
Is it the right move to send a closer back to hill a night after he flounders? Sometimes, but in this situation, it was just plain foolishness.

Didn't he flounder two nights ago? The Reds had a 5-run lead last night.

TeamBoone
07-10-2011, 08:06 PM
You know....I am watching this underperforming team.....and I am watching my country underperform in the Copa America.....and it really was such a much better summer last year with the baseball season and World Cup. What a difference a year makes.

Do you really think the team is bad? I don't. Most of its woes come from pitching meldowns... usually earlier in the game... which Dusty ignores and just the pitcher in there to flounder.

Boss-Hog
07-10-2011, 08:42 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2432681&postcount=13